I'm starting a new level 5 character and would like to play a Swashbuckler and would like to optimise him. Some info first:
This is a dangerous and deadly West Marches campaign were survivability comes first, damage comes second, and everything else comes to a distant third. So optimisation is not only encouraged, but required. This is, in fact, why I picked Swashbuckler, so I can sneak attack most of the time.
With XP advancement, we tend to level up very slowly. So please don't plan for some of the important stuff to come at a level 8 ASI to make the character whole (as he'd probably be dead by then). It's important the character is optimised at level 5.
I can use any of the races/feats from official releases including Eberron, Ravnica, etc. including official UA stuff.
To maximise my chances of getting sneak attack, I'd like to have two weapons. This is where the Dual Wielding feat comes in. I've read in many places that it's not worth it but getting +1 to AC in such a deadly game is nice and getting the upgraded weapon damage (2x rapiers) makes it a no brainer in my opinion. I'm open to other feats or no feats if there is a better build out there.
For now I'm going for variant Human, mainly so I can get the the Dual Wielding Feat. I tried some builds with a Half Elf or a Eladrin/Mark of Shadow Elf, which give me better stats and cool features but lower AC. There as well I'm open to suggestions.
I rolled for stats: 17, 16, 14, 13, 12, 12.
Thanks a lot for any help and advice. I'm kinda stuck for now :)
Overall, I think the character is pretty well defined, and I suspect you used your lvl4 ASI to bump up DEX, which is a good way to go unless you'd be interested in taking [feat]Martial Adept[/feat] (Evasive Footwork + Riposte OR Precision Attack) for a bit more versatility once per short rest.
Multiclassing Fighter for 2 levels could also be an idea (I'd suggest maybe level 1 to be fighter, for a higher starting HP), but you loose out on Uncanny dodge, an ASI and one Sneak Attack die, so I am not sure it is worth it at this level (if it was level 6 things could be diferent, combining Swashbuckler and Battle Master is a really good combo, imho).
Is there any specific area where you are unsure?
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
What I'm hesitant on is whether I should forgoe the Dual Wielding Feat to switch to a different race that would give me higher stats (though at the cost of a -1 AC).
Any thoughts on that?
And Martial Adept does sound nice though very limited with its one use per short rest. I love Riposte and Disarm though :)
I've never multiclassed and would consider it as you described. I could get better armor (there's a shiny Half Plate +1 in our party Vault) but not sure about lower sneak attack. I'll have to explore that a bit.
What I'm hesitant on is whether I should forgoe the Dual Wielding Feat to switch to a different race that would give me higher stats (though at the cost of a -1 AC).
Any thoughts on that?
And Martial Adept does sound nice though very limited with its one use per short rest. I love Riposte and Disarm though :)
I've never multiclassed and would consider it as you described. I could get better armor (there's a shiny Half Plate +1 in our party Vault) but not sure about lower sneak attack. I'll have to explore that a bit.
I would not change race, keep in mind that even though you could get a higher starting DEX (19 instead of 18), you'd still need an ASI to get it to 20, while with Variant Human you still use 1 ASI to get to 20 BUT you also get the +1 from Dual Wielding.
Multicalssing in Fighter would also give you a Fighting style, and selecting two-weapon fighting you get a boost of +5 (your DEX bonus) to your off-han attack, against an average of 3,5 given by an additional Sneak attack die. If you manage to get the Sneak attack damage on the first hit and hit with the off-hand, you'd get an average of 26.4 damage (4.7 Rapier +7 Sneak Attack + 5 DEX + 4.7 Rapier + 5 DEX), against 24.9 damage without the fighting style and with one additional SA die (4.7 Rapier +10.5 Sneak Attack + 5 DEX + 4.7 Rapier). The difference is not enormous, but in those cases where you do not have the conditions to get a SA you'd still get more damage.
You could get all that for just 1 Fighter level, so you would "only" lose on the lvl 5 Rogue stuff. Sadly, though, the level 5 stuff is Uncanny dodge, which is an extremely good feature, especially in a highly deadly setting, BUT, with Fighter 1 you also get Second Wind, which is a self-heal for 1d10+1 (considering you only dip 1 level into Fighter).
Both options have their survivability options, I would just suggest not to take that Half Plate +1 if you go with Fighter at 1st level: you are focused on DEX, and Half Plate only allows for +2 DEX to be applied to your AC, aside from giving disadvantage on stealth for a total of 17 AC, while with a studded leather you would still get 17 AC but you would not have disadvantage on stealth (which is always nice).
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Hi SwissRPG, It sounds like you have a solid idea of who you want to be.
Being a Swashbuckler Rogue they have some great abilities so unless you really want to multiclass, I recommend to stick to Rogue. As LeK said 1 lvl of Fighter can give a lot. Bonus Action healing and a extra damage every turn, but Rogues get a lot at every single level so it's hard to decide what to give up and when. I for one have a 14 Dex, max Charisma Swashbuckler-Rogue/Hexblade I've always wanted to make, but that's a very particular character. The idea is to take Rogue at 1 and Hexblade at 2. The character can wield: rapier, medium armor, and a shield.
Possibilities: A Lightfoot Halfing gets +2 Dex and +1 Cha which fits the build. The Naturally Stealthy ability really only works well for ranged attacks not melee, but all Halfing can move through Medium creatures' spaces as if they are difficult terrain. This means that even in a dungeon that is 5' corridors you'll be nearly impossible to trap. Plus I'm a huge fan of the features of Brave and Halfling Luck (the dice goddess hates me like I used to date her sister). This does mean that you give up Dual Wielder feat until at least 4th lvl, so you'll either be using a single rapier for 1d8 or two short swords for 1d6. It also means you lose 5' of movement. That said mathematically I believe +2 Dex is better then moving from 1d6 to 1d8.
My worry about trying to Dual Wield and move around a lot is you only have 30' of movement (6 spaces assume no difficult terrain). I've found that doesn't often get me very far on the maps in my games and if I want my Rogue to really move around the map and stay out of harm I'm often having to spend my Bonus Action to Dash. I also understand your worry about whiffing a lot and doing no damage.
Actually this gets me to another idea.
Take the Mobile Feat instead, Swashbuckler is diet Mobile. Your primary Attributes will be Dex and Int. Mobile grants you +10' of movement and if you Dash you ignore difficult terrain, remember Rogues can Dash as a Bonus Action. Plus you still get the enemy can't get AoOs if you attack them.
Stick with human and take Mobile at 1st lvl or go Warforged because their AC with Darkwood Core is crazy good. If you have 16 Dex you have 16 AC. (11+3+2). Envoy means you can always have Thieves tools integrated and Scout means you have +5 ft of movement. Or take a Halfing probably Stout or Ghostwise. Stout is +1 Con and Resist Poison and Ghost gives Silent Speech and +1 Wis for extra Perception. Go into Arcane Trickster instead of Swashbuckler. Of your three 1st lvl spells the one that isn't enchantment or illusion is Find Familiar. Take an Owl, it's just he best in combat and is amazing at a lot of thing. Your Cantrip of choice will be Booming Blade. Your Familiar will use Flyby to give you the Help Action in combat so you have Advantage on your 1 rapier attack a turn. You will then use Mobile or your Bonus Action Disengage if you don't have Mobile yet, to get out of range of combat. If the enemy wants to attack they have to take the extra damage from the Booming Blade.
Thanks a lot for the tips which gave me good ideas and more options go struggle with 😅
First, I definitley want to stick to a swashbuckler.
Race. Human is still a very strong contender but since you mentioned halfling and the Mobile feat, I actually tried a build with a Tabaxi which gets the same stay boosts but also has very useful mobility features. The main disadvantage there is that I lose the Dual Wielding feat. My Charisma is better tough.
Class. I tried a build with a level in Fighter. I have to say it looks really good but it's hard to choose. Second Wind VS Uncanny Dodge. +Dec to damage on off hand attack VS +1d6 additional Sneak Attack. By the way new info: it appears I’ll be able to level up to 6 fairly quickly.
Feats. Let's not forget an ASI could be replaced by a Feat, one that gives +1 to a stat that needs it like Dex. Like Elven Accuracy, Revenant Blade (which would make for a very interesting double-blade welder with 2d4 damage on both attack bonus attacks and a +1 to AC and still a Dex of 20. it could also get interesting with a dip in Gighter and Great Weapon Fighting).
OK here are the builds I have so far. Your feedback is most welcome:
I went rogue, fighter (two weapon fighting style), then rogue x 4 (maxing out my DEX w/the ASI) so far and plan on continuing rogue to at least 8th level to get Expertise, Evasion, and my 2nd ASI (which I am not positive what I'm going to use it on yet). With 90% of my attacks as sneak attacks, +8 on my attack rolls, and two chances to land sneak attack, I do quite a bit of damage and with the 18 AC from 20 DEX, studded leather, and the +1 AC from Dual Wielder, and Second Wind, I am comfortable in the middle of melee.
Against an opponent that I can sneak attack with an AC of 16 wielding 2 x rapiers that's a 42.25% chance of landing both swings doing 9.5 damage per swing + 10.5 sneak attack damage for 29.5 damage per round, 45.5% chance of landing just one of the two swings doing 20 damage per round, and then just a 12.25% chance of whiffing completely for an overall damage output of just over 21.5 damage per round where you swing twice, and that's not even taking critical hits into account.
I find myself really struggling to decide to spend my action on anything other than an attack because if I don't attack, I can't do my offhand bonus action attack at all. This makes me a lot less excited about Panache in combat unless I take another dip into fighter for Action Surge and always chain the two abilities together (or get to move 120 feet in a single turn with move, action dash, action surge dash, and bonus action dash).
I also did not dump strength and am glad I did because I'm seeing a lot of really interesting options using Athletics. Shove can be used to move opponents around in melee to create escape routes, or other interesting tactical positions, or knock them prone for advantage, and since it's technically an attack, Fancy Footwork's opportunity attack avoidance counts, and you can spend your bonus action on an offhand attack. It also sounds like a fun use of Elegant Maneuver later on.
(edit: Forgot to suggest getting a heavy crossbow for when you want to do ranged. Unless you go more fighter levels to get a second attack, there's no downside to the loading feature for you)
Thanks a lot everyone. I ended up going for the Fighter/Rogue mix. I also took the heavy crossbow (thanks or the tip Blatto).
Btw, I realised taking my first level as Fighter, then Rogue levels has my Saving Throws as STR + CON instead of DEX + INT. Also I end up with one less proficiency than if I went with Rogue as my first level. I'm not sure if one extra HP makes it worth it. Thoughts ?
Addendum option to my previous post. With the Eberron. Valenar Elf. Gives proficiency with the scimitar, double scimitar, longbow and shortbow. Speed is 35 feet, Wisdom is +1, and you can hide in lightly obscuring natural phenomena.
The longbow a great basic ranged weapon and often has lots of magical options in games. At level 4 you can pick up Revenant Blade instead of Duel Wielding. This Eberron feat gives you +1 Dex or Str (pick Dex), gives the double scimitar the finesse property, and gives you +1 AC with it. Also it means you can use the Attack Action to attack for 2d4+DEX and your Bonus Action to attack for 2d4+DEX. This will give you a much high average damage output then 2 rapiers. You don't have to worry about drawing two weapons and you don't have to worry about enchanting two weapons, you have a single magical weapon to invest in.
Thanks FullMetalBunny. I actually mentioned the Revenant build and tried it. But if you look at the math, two rapiers have 19 average damage whereas the revenant blade has 17.
By the way, that same calculation is showing two rapiers vs one rapier + a dagger +1. I'm confused at the 2nd results showing the same chances of getting 16 to 20 damage. Any math expert able to explain this ?
Personally I'd stay rogue through 5. If the campaign is as difficult as it sounds, uncanny dodge sounds great to me! And if you're the rogue of the group, stick with rogue at level 1. You'll want the skills and expertise. A few extra HP isn't that important in my opinion. With 16 in con, you're looking at 13 HP instead of 11. At level 5 you're looking at 45 HP instead of 43. You don't need the weapon proficiency or the armor, and I think the whole level just for 2 HP is not worth it. You do get the fighting style and that is good though but you'll be getting all your rogue class features a level late. Anything after level 1 and I think you'll be kicking yourself. Just play safe, at lvl 2 use your bonus disengages wisely and I think you'll be ok.
Revenant blade increases the bonus attack damage to 2d4. The average of which is 5. The average for a rapier is 4.5. Two attacks with Revenant Blade is 10. Two attacks with two rapiers is 9. I also think that the double bladed scimitar grants ability damage on both ends of it. I might be wrong there though. Either way, Revenant blade would get you to 18 Dex before race. That is 1 more AC, 1 more bonus to attack, and one more bonus to damage. That also let's you switch to elf which gets you to 20 dex at level 4. I think it's definitely better in the short term. Two Rapiers is more swashbucklery to me but a Valenar Elf rogue running around with a double bladed scimitar sounds pretty bad ass. It also would work great with the Swashbuckler kit. Plus with elf, you can pick up elvish accuracy later if you wanted. You'd already be maxxed on dex so it might not be that super awesome. You could put it in charisma though i guess. While on the topic of feats, sentinel is super good. If you're standing next to a friendly and an enemy attacks them instead of you, free bonus attack with sneak attack! If you are the target, you can use your reaction to halve the damage and help out your healer. You could consider that at 4 or 8.
I'd definitely use that 16 for Con. 14 Charisma probably helps you more than anything else. Do whatever with the rest of your stats. Use the 13 if you have a multiclass in mind for later. Personally I'd just stick with rogue. Dip into something if you really want but I like the rogue kit in what you've described.
I'm a bit confused by your numbers and I had tried a similar built to what you're saying so maybe you can help me figure out the math.
First, I'd like to keep that 1 dip in Fighter for reasons I will explain later, but it seems like level 6 will come just after 1-2 sessions, so I'll get that Uncanny Dodge and extra Sneak Attack die fairly quickly.
Now about the math, I've done some calculations which you can see here where you can compare two things a Human Fighter/Rogue (two weapon fighting style) fighting with either two rapiers or a rapier and a +1 dagger (it's the Dagger of Venom for those interested). Then there is an elf Fighter/Rogue (Great weapon fighting style) fighting with the revenant scimitar.
If we compare the basics, 2 rapiers vs two attacks of revenant scimitar, the rapiers win with an average of 19 damage vs 17. (I'm a bit confused at the results for the rapier/dagger combo showing equal changes between 16 to 20 damage).
By the way, the math there is taking into consideration the all the +stats and rerolls provided from the Great Weapon fighting style. But even without this the average damage is 17 (there is a calculation for a pure rogue elf there as well.)
Am I doing something wrong with the math ? I would indeed prefer an elf and all their benefits if I could since their stats are the same.
I personally don't like those DPS algorithms because in order to work they have to assume a lot in D&D, and D&D if full of variables you can't anticipate. I prefer to see look at dice instead of an average damage number. Average damage numbers assume crits, enemy ACs, don't include bless, magic, etc... There is a whole host of things that a "white room" isn't accounting for.
There also if feel, and feel is a big deal. Me personally, I'm a conservative player. I'll always take a sure thing over a big chance, it's why I used to always beat my ex at mahjong, she was easy to bait into going big and losing hard. I personally love the revenant blade because I'll take 2d4 instead of 1d8 because I'll take the greatswords 2d6 instead of the greataxe's 1d12. Min damage is higher, max damage lower, average damage is smoother. Plus if you do multiclass for that level or 2 of Fighter Two-Weapon Fighting just gives you ability damage on the Bonus Attack, something revenant blade already gives you. Great Weapon Fighting means you reroll once all 1s and 2s on 1d4, meaning your average damage will go up significantly. Now you keep the reroll so if you reroll a 1 you keep it, and there is chance a 2 becomes a 1.
These come down to personal preferences in how people build their characters and what kind of feel they want. You mentioned it's a high lethal game, which is why my 1st instinct was Warforged for the highest AC a Rogue can get or Halfling so it can always escape. Valenar goes against this and is offensive, looking to down the enemy first and using Diet Mobile from Swashbuckler.
The revenant blade doesn't require multiclassing and so will be better sooner and as Kendis pointed out will get you amazing features like Uncanny Dodge.
Color me convinced :) That Valenar elf is looking more and more interesting and I might just switch. Also going full rogue since that 1 and 2 reroll is not that amazing.
Well I have to look for a new character image now. That's the current character sheet btw.
Truth be told, I do not know how to read the data you linked. I don't have any experience with AnyDice so I can't really critique the math. What I will say is that to compute averages, you add the two numbers together, 1 and 8 (1d8) for rapier and 2 and 8 (2d4) for Double Bladed scimitar, then divide by 2. That comes out to 4.5 for the rapiers and 5 for the scimitar. If you did take a dip in fighter for Great Weapon Fighting and always rerolled 1s and 2s on the d4s, that would up the damage of the double bladed scimitars by about 1 on average. 6 per swing instead of 5. This means that you are very slightly better off on even numbered levels to have gone with the fighter. However, on odd number levels (where you get another sneak attack dice), you are much better off having skipped the fighter dip. You also get other class features more quickly and if you make it all the way to 20, you get the Stroke of Luck class feature.
If I'm being honest I'm a little jealous that I don't get to play this character. He looks like tons of fun!
I'd get him a few daggers just in case you get disarmed. Drawing daggers is free but picking up your weapon is an action. You can always throw them too!
Good point about the daggers. I'll pick a few. It's a shame I don't get to use that Dagger of Venom, but oh well, I'm quite happy with this build. Thanks a lot for all the tips.
1) Consider Tabaxi for race. They were basically designed to be a rouge and the feline agility and climb speed make you incredibly mobile. If you activate feline agility then use your move, action, and cunning action to tripple dash you can move 180ft in a single turn. Or you can just use your feline agility with your move and cunning action to get 120ft and still get in 1 attack.
2) Consider magic initiate wizard, sorcerer, or warlock so you can get the Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade cantrips. Yes two rapiers do more damage than two short swords but on average the rapier's 1d8 only does 1 more point of damage than the shortsword's 1d6. On the other hand by using a single shortsword attack with Booming Blade at 5th level you'll deal 1d6 (shortsword) + 1d8 (Booming Blade) + 2d6 (Sneak Attack if applicable) AND ANOTHER 2d8 if the target wants to move in the next turn (thanks again Booming Blade). All this and you still haven't used your bonus action yet so you can either attack again (without booming blade unfortunately because it takes an action to cast) or use your feline agility coupled with your cunning action and your swashbuckling awesomeness to drop the mic flip the dude the bird and moonwalk to safety without worrying about incurring an opportunity attack.
Btw because Booming Blade is a cantrip you can do this combo with EVERY TURN.
P.s. I also invested in charisma and took a 1 level dip into Bard for lots of fun social encounter manipulation spells so I'm the face of the party.
While technically allowed, I would never allow two rapiers to be used even with dual wield. Rapiers are 40+" primarily piercing weapons that could no regular sized humanoid could ever effectively wield two of simultaneously. 2 shortswords...yeah. Even two longswords makes more sense than 2 rapiers (as they are shorter and more versatile if a little heavier). Rapier and dagger would be doable. Then again, if it's only about the meta, then, rapier away.
While technically allowed, I would never allow two rapiers to be used even with dual wield. Rapiers are 40+" primarily piercing weapons that could no regular sized humanoid could ever effectively wield two of simultaneously. 2 shortswords...yeah. Even two longswords makes more sense than 2 rapiers (as they are shorter and more versatile if a little heavier). Rapier and dagger would be doable. Then again, if it's only about the meta, then, rapier away.
Historically speaking, some people did use two rapiers in fights. They also weighed about half as much as a longsword with similar lengths.
Hi folks.
I'm starting a new level 5 character and would like to play a Swashbuckler and would like to optimise him. Some info first:
You can find my current build here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/SwissRPG/characters/8802752
Thanks a lot for any help and advice. I'm kinda stuck for now :)
Hi SwissRPG o/
Overall, I think the character is pretty well defined, and I suspect you used your lvl4 ASI to bump up DEX, which is a good way to go unless you'd be interested in taking [feat]Martial Adept[/feat] (Evasive Footwork + Riposte OR Precision Attack) for a bit more versatility once per short rest.
Multiclassing Fighter for 2 levels could also be an idea (I'd suggest maybe level 1 to be fighter, for a higher starting HP), but you loose out on Uncanny dodge, an ASI and one Sneak Attack die, so I am not sure it is worth it at this level (if it was level 6 things could be diferent, combining Swashbuckler and Battle Master is a really good combo, imho).
Is there any specific area where you are unsure?
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Thanks Lek.
Yeah I boosted Dec with my level 4 ASI.
What I'm hesitant on is whether I should forgoe the Dual Wielding Feat to switch to a different race that would give me higher stats (though at the cost of a -1 AC).
Any thoughts on that?
And Martial Adept does sound nice though very limited with its one use per short rest. I love Riposte and Disarm though :)
I've never multiclassed and would consider it as you described. I could get better armor (there's a shiny Half Plate +1 in our party Vault) but not sure about lower sneak attack. I'll have to explore that a bit.
I would not change race, keep in mind that even though you could get a higher starting DEX (19 instead of 18), you'd still need an ASI to get it to 20, while with Variant Human you still use 1 ASI to get to 20 BUT you also get the +1 from Dual Wielding.
Multicalssing in Fighter would also give you a Fighting style, and selecting two-weapon fighting you get a boost of +5 (your DEX bonus) to your off-han attack, against an average of 3,5 given by an additional Sneak attack die. If you manage to get the Sneak attack damage on the first hit and hit with the off-hand, you'd get an average of 26.4 damage (4.7 Rapier +7 Sneak Attack + 5 DEX + 4.7 Rapier + 5 DEX), against 24.9 damage without the fighting style and with one additional SA die (4.7 Rapier +10.5 Sneak Attack + 5 DEX + 4.7 Rapier). The difference is not enormous, but in those cases where you do not have the conditions to get a SA you'd still get more damage.
You could get all that for just 1 Fighter level, so you would "only" lose on the lvl 5 Rogue stuff.
Sadly, though, the level 5 stuff is Uncanny dodge, which is an extremely good feature, especially in a highly deadly setting, BUT, with Fighter 1 you also get Second Wind, which is a self-heal for 1d10+1 (considering you only dip 1 level into Fighter).
Both options have their survivability options, I would just suggest not to take that Half Plate +1 if you go with Fighter at 1st level: you are focused on DEX, and Half Plate only allows for +2 DEX to be applied to your AC, aside from giving disadvantage on stealth for a total of 17 AC, while with a studded leather you would still get 17 AC but you would not have disadvantage on stealth (which is always nice).
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Hi SwissRPG,
It sounds like you have a solid idea of who you want to be.
Being a Swashbuckler Rogue they have some great abilities so unless you really want to multiclass, I recommend to stick to Rogue. As LeK said 1 lvl of Fighter can give a lot. Bonus Action healing and a extra damage every turn, but Rogues get a lot at every single level so it's hard to decide what to give up and when.
I for one have a 14 Dex, max Charisma Swashbuckler-Rogue/Hexblade I've always wanted to make, but that's a very particular character. The idea is to take Rogue at 1 and Hexblade at 2. The character can wield: rapier, medium armor, and a shield.
Possibilities:
A Lightfoot Halfing gets +2 Dex and +1 Cha which fits the build. The Naturally Stealthy ability really only works well for ranged attacks not melee, but all Halfing can move through Medium creatures' spaces as if they are difficult terrain. This means that even in a dungeon that is 5' corridors you'll be nearly impossible to trap.
Plus I'm a huge fan of the features of Brave and Halfling Luck (the dice goddess hates me like I used to date her sister).
This does mean that you give up Dual Wielder feat until at least 4th lvl, so you'll either be using a single rapier for 1d8 or two short swords for 1d6. It also means you lose 5' of movement. That said mathematically I believe +2 Dex is better then moving from 1d6 to 1d8.
My worry about trying to Dual Wield and move around a lot is you only have 30' of movement (6 spaces assume no difficult terrain). I've found that doesn't often get me very far on the maps in my games and if I want my Rogue to really move around the map and stay out of harm I'm often having to spend my Bonus Action to Dash. I also understand your worry about whiffing a lot and doing no damage.
Actually this gets me to another idea.
Take the Mobile Feat instead, Swashbuckler is diet Mobile. Your primary Attributes will be Dex and Int.
Mobile grants you +10' of movement and if you Dash you ignore difficult terrain, remember Rogues can Dash as a Bonus Action. Plus you still get the enemy can't get AoOs if you attack them.
Stick with human and take Mobile at 1st lvl or go Warforged because their AC with Darkwood Core is crazy good. If you have 16 Dex you have 16 AC. (11+3+2). Envoy means you can always have Thieves tools integrated and Scout means you have +5 ft of movement. Or take a Halfing probably Stout or Ghostwise. Stout is +1 Con and Resist Poison and Ghost gives Silent Speech and +1 Wis for extra Perception.
Go into Arcane Trickster instead of Swashbuckler. Of your three 1st lvl spells the one that isn't enchantment or illusion is Find Familiar. Take an Owl, it's just he best in combat and is amazing at a lot of thing.
Your Cantrip of choice will be Booming Blade.
Your Familiar will use Flyby to give you the Help Action in combat so you have Advantage on your 1 rapier attack a turn. You will then use Mobile or your Bonus Action Disengage if you don't have Mobile yet, to get out of range of combat. If the enemy wants to attack they have to take the extra damage from the Booming Blade.
Thanks a lot for the tips which gave me good ideas and more options go struggle with 😅
First, I definitley want to stick to a swashbuckler.
Race. Human is still a very strong contender but since you mentioned halfling and the Mobile feat, I actually tried a build with a Tabaxi which gets the same stay boosts but also has very useful mobility features. The main disadvantage there is that I lose the Dual Wielding feat. My Charisma is better tough.
Class. I tried a build with a level in Fighter. I have to say it looks really good but it's hard to choose. Second Wind VS Uncanny Dodge. +Dec to damage on off hand attack VS +1d6 additional Sneak Attack. By the way new info: it appears I’ll be able to level up to 6 fairly quickly.
Feats. Let's not forget an ASI could be replaced by a Feat, one that gives +1 to a stat that needs it like Dex. Like Elven Accuracy, Revenant Blade (which would make for a very interesting double-blade welder with 2d4 damage on both attack bonus attacks and a +1 to AC and still a Dex of 20. it could also get interesting with a dip in Gighter and Great Weapon Fighting).
OK here are the builds I have so far. Your feedback is most welcome:
- human rogue (original): https://ddb.ac/characters/8802752/55NH2V
- human fighter/rogue: https://ddb.ac/characters/8921111/NWJiQA
- tabaxi rogue: https://ddb.ac/characters/8921032/f8kKOX
- elf revenant fighter/rogue: https://ddb.ac/characters/9014295/3CFmVS
Thanks again.
Your human fighter/rogue build is very similar to the one I am playing right now: https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/Blatto/characters/5296025
I went rogue, fighter (two weapon fighting style), then rogue x 4 (maxing out my DEX w/the ASI) so far and plan on continuing rogue to at least 8th level to get Expertise, Evasion, and my 2nd ASI (which I am not positive what I'm going to use it on yet). With 90% of my attacks as sneak attacks, +8 on my attack rolls, and two chances to land sneak attack, I do quite a bit of damage and with the 18 AC from 20 DEX, studded leather, and the +1 AC from Dual Wielder, and Second Wind, I am comfortable in the middle of melee.
Against an opponent that I can sneak attack with an AC of 16 wielding 2 x rapiers that's a 42.25% chance of landing both swings doing 9.5 damage per swing + 10.5 sneak attack damage for 29.5 damage per round, 45.5% chance of landing just one of the two swings doing 20 damage per round, and then just a 12.25% chance of whiffing completely for an overall damage output of just over 21.5 damage per round where you swing twice, and that's not even taking critical hits into account.
I find myself really struggling to decide to spend my action on anything other than an attack because if I don't attack, I can't do my offhand bonus action attack at all. This makes me a lot less excited about Panache in combat unless I take another dip into fighter for Action Surge and always chain the two abilities together (or get to move 120 feet in a single turn with move, action dash, action surge dash, and bonus action dash).
I also did not dump strength and am glad I did because I'm seeing a lot of really interesting options using Athletics. Shove can be used to move opponents around in melee to create escape routes, or other interesting tactical positions, or knock them prone for advantage, and since it's technically an attack, Fancy Footwork's opportunity attack avoidance counts, and you can spend your bonus action on an offhand attack. It also sounds like a fun use of Elegant Maneuver later on.
(edit: Forgot to suggest getting a heavy crossbow for when you want to do ranged. Unless you go more fighter levels to get a second attack, there's no downside to the loading feature for you)
Thanks a lot everyone. I ended up going for the Fighter/Rogue mix. I also took the heavy crossbow (thanks or the tip Blatto).
Btw, I realised taking my first level as Fighter, then Rogue levels has my Saving Throws as STR + CON instead of DEX + INT. Also I end up with one less proficiency than if I went with Rogue as my first level. I'm not sure if one extra HP makes it worth it. Thoughts ?
Addendum option to my previous post. With the Eberron.
Valenar Elf. Gives proficiency with the scimitar, double scimitar, longbow and shortbow.
Speed is 35 feet, Wisdom is +1, and you can hide in lightly obscuring natural phenomena.
The longbow a great basic ranged weapon and often has lots of magical options in games.
At level 4 you can pick up Revenant Blade instead of Duel Wielding. This Eberron feat gives you +1 Dex or Str (pick Dex), gives the double scimitar the finesse property, and gives you +1 AC with it. Also it means you can use the Attack Action to attack for 2d4+DEX and your Bonus Action to attack for 2d4+DEX.
This will give you a much high average damage output then 2 rapiers. You don't have to worry about drawing two weapons and you don't have to worry about enchanting two weapons, you have a single magical weapon to invest in.
Thanks FullMetalBunny. I actually mentioned the Revenant build and tried it. But if you look at the math, two rapiers have 19 average damage whereas the revenant blade has 17.
By the way, that same calculation is showing two rapiers vs one rapier + a dagger +1. I'm confused at the 2nd results showing the same chances of getting 16 to 20 damage. Any math expert able to explain this ?
Personally I'd stay rogue through 5. If the campaign is as difficult as it sounds, uncanny dodge sounds great to me! And if you're the rogue of the group, stick with rogue at level 1. You'll want the skills and expertise. A few extra HP isn't that important in my opinion. With 16 in con, you're looking at 13 HP instead of 11. At level 5 you're looking at 45 HP instead of 43. You don't need the weapon proficiency or the armor, and I think the whole level just for 2 HP is not worth it. You do get the fighting style and that is good though but you'll be getting all your rogue class features a level late. Anything after level 1 and I think you'll be kicking yourself. Just play safe, at lvl 2 use your bonus disengages wisely and I think you'll be ok.
Revenant blade increases the bonus attack damage to 2d4. The average of which is 5. The average for a rapier is 4.5. Two attacks with Revenant Blade is 10. Two attacks with two rapiers is 9. I also think that the double bladed scimitar grants ability damage on both ends of it. I might be wrong there though. Either way, Revenant blade would get you to 18 Dex before race. That is 1 more AC, 1 more bonus to attack, and one more bonus to damage. That also let's you switch to elf which gets you to 20 dex at level 4. I think it's definitely better in the short term. Two Rapiers is more swashbucklery to me but a Valenar Elf rogue running around with a double bladed scimitar sounds pretty bad ass. It also would work great with the Swashbuckler kit. Plus with elf, you can pick up elvish accuracy later if you wanted. You'd already be maxxed on dex so it might not be that super awesome. You could put it in charisma though i guess. While on the topic of feats, sentinel is super good. If you're standing next to a friendly and an enemy attacks them instead of you, free bonus attack with sneak attack! If you are the target, you can use your reaction to halve the damage and help out your healer. You could consider that at 4 or 8.
I'd definitely use that 16 for Con. 14 Charisma probably helps you more than anything else. Do whatever with the rest of your stats. Use the 13 if you have a multiclass in mind for later. Personally I'd just stick with rogue. Dip into something if you really want but I like the rogue kit in what you've described.
Thanks for your input Kendis >
I'm a bit confused by your numbers and I had tried a similar built to what you're saying so maybe you can help me figure out the math.
First, I'd like to keep that 1 dip in Fighter for reasons I will explain later, but it seems like level 6 will come just after 1-2 sessions, so I'll get that Uncanny Dodge and extra Sneak Attack die fairly quickly.
Now about the math, I've done some calculations which you can see here where you can compare two things a Human Fighter/Rogue (two weapon fighting style) fighting with either two rapiers or a rapier and a +1 dagger (it's the Dagger of Venom for those interested). Then there is an elf Fighter/Rogue (Great weapon fighting style) fighting with the revenant scimitar.
If we compare the basics, 2 rapiers vs two attacks of revenant scimitar, the rapiers win with an average of 19 damage vs 17. (I'm a bit confused at the results for the rapier/dagger combo showing equal changes between 16 to 20 damage).
By the way, the math there is taking into consideration the all the +stats and rerolls provided from the Great Weapon fighting style. But even without this the average damage is 17 (there is a calculation for a pure rogue elf there as well.)
Am I doing something wrong with the math ? I would indeed prefer an elf and all their benefits if I could since their stats are the same.
Thanks
SwissRPG ,
I personally don't like those DPS algorithms because in order to work they have to assume a lot in D&D, and D&D if full of variables you can't anticipate. I prefer to see look at dice instead of an average damage number. Average damage numbers assume crits, enemy ACs, don't include bless, magic, etc... There is a whole host of things that a "white room" isn't accounting for.
There also if feel, and feel is a big deal. Me personally, I'm a conservative player. I'll always take a sure thing over a big chance, it's why I used to always beat my ex at mahjong, she was easy to bait into going big and losing hard. I personally love the revenant blade because I'll take 2d4 instead of 1d8 because I'll take the greatswords 2d6 instead of the greataxe's 1d12. Min damage is higher, max damage lower, average damage is smoother. Plus if you do multiclass for that level or 2 of Fighter Two-Weapon Fighting just gives you ability damage on the Bonus Attack, something revenant blade already gives you. Great Weapon Fighting means you reroll once all 1s and 2s on 1d4, meaning your average damage will go up significantly. Now you keep the reroll so if you reroll a 1 you keep it, and there is chance a 2 becomes a 1.
These come down to personal preferences in how people build their characters and what kind of feel they want. You mentioned it's a high lethal game, which is why my 1st instinct was Warforged for the highest AC a Rogue can get or Halfling so it can always escape. Valenar goes against this and is offensive, looking to down the enemy first and using Diet Mobile from Swashbuckler.
The revenant blade doesn't require multiclassing and so will be better sooner and as Kendis pointed out will get you amazing features like Uncanny Dodge.
Color me convinced :) That Valenar elf is looking more and more interesting and I might just switch. Also going full rogue since that 1 and 2 reroll is not that amazing.
Well I have to look for a new character image now. That's the current character sheet btw.
Truth be told, I do not know how to read the data you linked. I don't have any experience with AnyDice so I can't really critique the math. What I will say is that to compute averages, you add the two numbers together, 1 and 8 (1d8) for rapier and 2 and 8 (2d4) for Double Bladed scimitar, then divide by 2. That comes out to 4.5 for the rapiers and 5 for the scimitar. If you did take a dip in fighter for Great Weapon Fighting and always rerolled 1s and 2s on the d4s, that would up the damage of the double bladed scimitars by about 1 on average. 6 per swing instead of 5. This means that you are very slightly better off on even numbered levels to have gone with the fighter. However, on odd number levels (where you get another sneak attack dice), you are much better off having skipped the fighter dip. You also get other class features more quickly and if you make it all the way to 20, you get the Stroke of Luck class feature.
If I'm being honest I'm a little jealous that I don't get to play this character. He looks like tons of fun!
I'd get him a few daggers just in case you get disarmed. Drawing daggers is free but picking up your weapon is an action. You can always throw them too!
Good point about the daggers. I'll pick a few. It's a shame I don't get to use that Dagger of Venom, but oh well, I'm quite happy with this build. Thanks a lot for all the tips.
You are welcome! Happy stabbing!
Two bits of advice to consider:
1) Consider Tabaxi for race. They were basically designed to be a rouge and the feline agility and climb speed make you incredibly mobile. If you activate feline agility then use your move, action, and cunning action to tripple dash you can move 180ft in a single turn. Or you can just use your feline agility with your move and cunning action to get 120ft and still get in 1 attack.
2) Consider magic initiate wizard, sorcerer, or warlock so you can get the Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade cantrips. Yes two rapiers do more damage than two short swords but on average the rapier's 1d8 only does 1 more point of damage than the shortsword's 1d6. On the other hand by using a single shortsword attack with Booming Blade at 5th level you'll deal 1d6 (shortsword) + 1d8 (Booming Blade) + 2d6 (Sneak Attack if applicable) AND ANOTHER 2d8 if the target wants to move in the next turn (thanks again Booming Blade). All this and you still haven't used your bonus action yet so you can either attack again (without booming blade unfortunately because it takes an action to cast) or use your feline agility coupled with your cunning action and your swashbuckling awesomeness to drop the mic flip the dude the bird and moonwalk to safety without worrying about incurring an opportunity attack.
Btw because Booming Blade is a cantrip you can do this combo with EVERY TURN.
P.s. I also invested in charisma and took a 1 level dip into Bard for lots of fun social encounter manipulation spells so I'm the face of the party.
P.S.S. Tabaxi are just really fun to play.
While technically allowed, I would never allow two rapiers to be used even with dual wield. Rapiers are 40+" primarily piercing weapons that could no regular sized humanoid could ever effectively wield two of simultaneously. 2 shortswords...yeah. Even two longswords makes more sense than 2 rapiers (as they are shorter and more versatile if a little heavier). Rapier and dagger would be doable. Then again, if it's only about the meta, then, rapier away.
Historically speaking, some people did use two rapiers in fights. They also weighed about half as much as a longsword with similar lengths.