People are saying you cannot use a javelin for the Rogue's Sneak Attack but here is why I think you can.
RAW - Sneak Attack - Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
Okay, so the way that reads is 'the attack must use a finesse weapon (weapon property) or a ranged weapon (weapon property). The RAW of Range read 'Range. A weapon that can be used to make a ranged attack has a range shown in parentheses after the ammunition or thrown property.' Thrown property would then go on to say 'Thrown. If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack. If the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that you would use for a melee attack with the weapon. For example, if you throw a handaxe, you use your Strength, but if you throw a dagger, you can use either your Strength or your Dexterity, since the dagger has the finesse property.' Also, Ranged Attacks - When you make a ranged Attack, you fire a bow or a crossbow, hurl a Handaxe, or otherwise send projectiles to strike a foe at a distance. Substitute "handaxe' with 'javelin' and it still applies. RAW also states 'Every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged. A melee weapon is used to Attack a target within 5 feet of you, whereas a ranged weapon is used to Attack a target at a distance.' Again, just as Dagger says 'Finesse, Light, Thrown (20/60) so reads Javelin as 'Thrown 30/120)'.
But many people are reading 'The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon' that the ranged weapon means Ranged Weapon or to say 'the attack must use a finesse weapon (weapon property) or a ranged weapon (weapon class). That's fine to say but it still leads back to all ranged weapons still use the same weapons properties that read (Finesse, Thrown (XX/YY) or Range (XX/YY).
I have not seen any rules that says a Rogue could not use a javelin for a sneak attack. For that matter I would even say that a Rogue could use a beer bottle as an improvised weapon in a Sneak Attack. I think RAW says you can.
Ranged weapons fall into one of two specific categories: Simple Ranged Weapon and Martial Ranged Weapons. They are listed as such here and in the Player's Handbook. Just because a Simple Melee Weapon like the javelin can be thrown for a ranged attack, that doesn't make it a ranged weapon. It's still a melee weapon.
I don't understand why you would even want to use a Javelin to do ranged sneak attacks. If you want to use Str based ranged sneak attacks then use Darts. Darts are cheaper, they weigh less and all you are losing out is a D6 to a D4. Not to mention you won't be using a Javelin up close for sneak attacks anyway.
Yes a javelin is a melee weapon but it has ranged properties. The javelin weapon property is thrown just like a dagger's weapon property is finesse or thrown. How can you say a dagger is legit for a Sneak Attack because it is a melee weapon with finesse and/or thrown properties but a javelin cannot be used for a Sneak Attack because it is a melee weapon and has ranged/thrown properties? Furthermore, a dagger in real life or in fantasy based game is a handheld weapon that can be thrown but a javelin is always meant to be thrown but could be used as a handheld weapon.
But you also said 'Ranged weapons fall into one of two specific categories: Simple Ranged Weapon and Martial Ranged Weapons'. IN Sneak Attack - 'The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.' But all ranged weapon relay on the attack as range in the weapon properties.
Yes a javelin is a melee weapon but it has ranged properties. The javelin weapon property is thrown just like a dagger's weapon property is finesse or thrown. How can you say a dagger is legit for a Sneak Attack because it is a melee weapon with finesse and/or thrown properties but a javelin cannot be used for a Sneak Attack because it is a melee weapon and has ranged/thrown properties? Furthermore, a dagger in real life or in fantasy based game is a handheld weapon that can be thrown but a javelin is always meant to be thrown but could be used as a handheld weapon.
But you also said 'Ranged weapons fall into one of two specific categories: Simple Ranged Weapon and Martial Ranged Weapons'. IN Sneak Attack - 'The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.' But all ranged weapon relay on the attack as range in the weapon properties.
It all comes down to the wording
Sneak Attack
Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe's distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
The Javelin has neither the finesse trait nor is it listed as a ranged weapon. Whereas the humble dagger has the finesse trait.
Yes a javelin is a melee weapon but it has ranged properties. The javelin weapon property is thrown just like a dagger's weapon property is finesse or thrown. How can you say a dagger is legit for a Sneak Attack because it is a melee weapon with finesse and/or thrown properties but a javelin cannot be used for a Sneak Attack because it is a melee weapon and has ranged/thrown properties? Furthermore, a dagger in real life or in fantasy based game is a handheld weapon that can be thrown but a javelin is always meant to be thrown but could be used as a handheld weapon.
But you also said 'Ranged weapons fall into one of two specific categories: Simple Ranged Weapon and Martial Ranged Weapons'. IN Sneak Attack - 'The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.' But all ranged weapon relay on the attack as range in the weapon properties.
The thrown property doesn't matter. If it did, the feature would list it along with the finesse and light properties.
Having a range band or two does not turn a throwable melee weapon into a ranged weapon, even though you're making a ranged attack. If the same rogue were to take the [Tooltip Not Found] to throw an acid vial, they're making a ranged attack. They even get to add their Dexterity modifier to the damage. But it's not a ranged weapon, it's an improvised weapon. Similarly, the thrown property of the dagger, handaxe, and javelin allow you to make a ranged attack with a melee weapon.
I have an idea for this. What if elven javelins have finesse? They'd be like a cool upgrade from darts. I understand that by the RAW a javelin does not qualify for sneak attack. But I do have a Str based Ranger/Barbarian/Rogue that would enjoy slinging some deadly javs every now and again. As it stands she might sometimes combine a longbow shot with a javelin toss. You could even have functional knock offs that a character could purchase to add a little surprise to their arsenal.
I have an idea for this. What if elven javelins have finesse? They'd be like a cool upgrade from darts. I understand that by the RAW a javelin does not qualify for sneak attack. But I do have a Str based Ranger/Barbarian/Rogue that would enjoy slinging some deadly javs every now and again. As it stands she might sometimes combine a longbow shot with a javelin toss. You could even have functional knock offs that a character could purchase to add a little surprise to their arsenal.
You can always homebrew or DM Fiat something. RAW, a javelin doesn't work. But not everything has to go by RAW. Throw out the idea to your DM. You never know, unless you ask. Hope you have a high CHA and proficiency in Persuasion! :)
Yes a javelin is a melee weapon but it has ranged properties. The javelin weapon property is thrown just like a dagger's weapon property is finesse or thrown. How can you say a dagger is legit for a Sneak Attack because it is a melee weapon with finesse and/or thrown properties but a javelin cannot be used for a Sneak Attack because it is a melee weapon and has ranged/thrown properties? Furthermore, a dagger in real life or in fantasy based game is a handheld weapon that can be thrown but a javelin is always meant to be thrown but could be used as a handheld weapon.
In D&D, just like the dagger a javelin is a melee weapon that can be thrown to make ranged attacks. No melee weapon can be used with Sneak Attack unless it has the finesse property.
As mentioned above, the answer is HOMEBREW a rule for the table.. it’s not going to be a ground breaking change in power or damage output, but the rules in place prevent a javelin, hand axe, spear, trident or any melee weapons from being categorized as a ranged weapon, even if they are thrown.
if anything, I would say add it to a specific PC as a home brew characteristic, as opposed to a global homebrew rule. Think of it this way, to use a finesse weapon or make a sneak attack is to be able to make a pinpoint strike, such as a gap in between the armor or a vital point on a targets body. You don’t see people making trick shots or bulls eyeing a small target with a larger thrown weapon like a javelin or spear. A hand axe has a much larger point of impact which is closer to a brute force strike rather than a pinpoint attack, and a trident causes 3 holes, not 1 on impact. If a specific PC is exceptionally talented, go ahead and let them… but it shouldn’t be a standard rule across the board
You can always homebrew or DM Fiat something. RAW, a javelin doesn't work. But not everything has to go by RAW. Throw out the idea to your DM. You never know, unless you ask. Hope you have a high CHA and proficiency in Persuasion! :)
Well luckily I like to DM as much as play so I'd get to use the idea anyway. I like to create elven elite soldiers with a die or 2 of sneak attack damage so making elven weapons like javelins with finesse, or my standard Elven Mythral Glaive (finesse, +1, +2 vs undead, fiends and evil fey) feels right. I think it's critical for factions to have their own badass knights, and races like Elves and especially Dwarves to have unique gear that might not be magical. Dwarven nonmagical +1 plate for example (fitted, applies only to who it's made for), 2d6 dwarven heavy crossbows (no sneak attack). I don't know, gnome grenadiers?
You can always homebrew or DM Fiat something. RAW, a javelin doesn't work. But not everything has to go by RAW. Throw out the idea to your DM. You never know, unless you ask. Hope you have a high CHA and proficiency in Persuasion! :)
Well luckily I like to DM as much as play so I'd get to use the idea anyway. I like to create elven elite soldiers with a die or 2 of sneak attack damage so making elven weapons like javelins with finesse, or my standard Elven Mythral Glaive (finesse, +1, +2 vs undead, fiends and evil fey) feels right. I think it's critical for factions to have their own badass knights, and races like Elves and especially Dwarves to have unique gear that might not be magical. Dwarven nonmagical +1 plate for example (fitted, applies only to who it's made for), 2d6 dwarven heavy crossbows (no sneak attack). I don't know, gnome grenadiers?
So, the way you describe that though falls more in lines with the ranger archetype rather than sneak attack... lots of ways to do additional weapon damage like 2d6 with different Hunter builds.. but sneak attack is more align specifically to pinpoint strikes. Regardless, name it or describe it however you like if it's a homebrew
So, the way you describe that though falls more in lines with the ranger archetype rather than sneak attack... lots of ways to do additional weapon damage like 2d6 with different Hunter builds.. but sneak attack is more align specifically to pinpoint strikes. Regardless, name it or describe it however you like if it's a homebrew
"The way you describe that". I didn't go too far into it. When you say it's more like a ranger do you mean colossus slayer and hunter's mark type stuff? Or do you mean the Glaives bonus against undead fiends and evil fey? Because that aspect of it I would agree is very much inspired by the ranger-y aspect of elves. That glaive isn't something I designed for players generally, it's a trademark weapon of elven knights and having one could piss them off. I give Elven elite troops sneak attack and finesse weapons in a similar way to how hobgoblins get martial advantage, but with an emphasis on elven precision since sneak attack is for dex weapons, and yes as you said: pinpoint strikes. It also means that my elven knights are always angling for a tactical advantage, and their ranks could include people with battlemaster abilities like tripping attack or feint, or druids casting faerie fire. Or the elven classic, longbows from hiding.
Sorry for the slow response.. must have missed your comment... was redering to the additonal damage, not the Elven Glaive detail you described
What I meant by "the way you describe it" was in reference to a Elite Elven soldiers... kind of gave me the image of a line of shield in one hand and javelin's in the other "Formation of soldiers". Each throwing their javilins in unison at a charging hoard of orcs. Yes you did not describe it that way specifically, but it's the image that came to mind. (Perhaps too much Tolkien in my childhood)
In that instance, again, i dont know if this is or isnt what you are implying... there would not necessarily be attack advantage if the enemies were charging unless there was an external factor here, and an ally would not necessarily be adjacent of they had the room to run forward. So Sneak Attack doesn't trigger in that scenario. With the Ranger-hunters colossal slayer or any other subclass variations of that damage buff, the target doesn't need to be adjacent to an ally or provide Advantage to incoming attack rolls... yes, colossal slayer specifically says they need to be injured first.. but the variation of that extra for of damage comes in different forms from each subclass. Hunters just have the ability to use Collosal Slayer and that Tasha's optional rule to stack extra damage as an example, without needing the flavor of sneak atttack
Basically, I'm just saying if you want to add this additional 2d6 or 3d6 damage, it doesnt have to come from a rogue sneak attack... there are other options that can work too. Just trying to provide some mechanical help if youre home brewing
People are saying you cannot use a javelin for the Rogue's Sneak Attack but here is why I think you can.
RAW - Sneak Attack - Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
Okay, so the way that reads is 'the attack must use a finesse weapon (weapon property) or a ranged weapon (weapon property). The RAW of Range read 'Range. A weapon that can be used to make a ranged attack has a range shown in parentheses after the ammunition or thrown property.' Thrown property would then go on to say 'Thrown. If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack. If the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that you would use for a melee attack with the weapon. For example, if you throw a handaxe, you use your Strength, but if you throw a dagger, you can use either your Strength or your Dexterity, since the dagger has the finesse property.' Also, Ranged Attacks - When you make a ranged Attack, you fire a bow or a crossbow, hurl a Handaxe, or otherwise send projectiles to strike a foe at a distance. Substitute "handaxe' with 'javelin' and it still applies. RAW also states 'Every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged. A melee weapon is used to Attack a target within 5 feet of you, whereas a ranged weapon is used to Attack a target at a distance.' Again, just as Dagger says 'Finesse, Light, Thrown (20/60) so reads Javelin as 'Thrown 30/120)'.
But many people are reading 'The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon' that the ranged weapon means Ranged Weapon or to say 'the attack must use a finesse weapon (weapon property) or a ranged weapon (weapon class). That's fine to say but it still leads back to all ranged weapons still use the same weapons properties that read (Finesse, Thrown (XX/YY) or Range (XX/YY).
I have not seen any rules that says a Rogue could not use a javelin for a sneak attack. For that matter I would even say that a Rogue could use a beer bottle as an improvised weapon in a Sneak Attack. I think RAW says you can.
Where am I going wrong here folks?
Ranged weapons fall into one of two specific categories: Simple Ranged Weapon and Martial Ranged Weapons. They are listed as such here and in the Player's Handbook. Just because a Simple Melee Weapon like the javelin can be thrown for a ranged attack, that doesn't make it a ranged weapon. It's still a melee weapon.
I don't understand why you would even want to use a Javelin to do ranged sneak attacks. If you want to use Str based ranged sneak attacks then use Darts. Darts are cheaper, they weigh less and all you are losing out is a D6 to a D4. Not to mention you won't be using a Javelin up close for sneak attacks anyway.
Yes a javelin is a melee weapon but it has ranged properties. The javelin weapon property is thrown just like a dagger's weapon property is finesse or thrown. How can you say a dagger is legit for a Sneak Attack because it is a melee weapon with finesse and/or thrown properties but a javelin cannot be used for a Sneak Attack because it is a melee weapon and has ranged/thrown properties? Furthermore, a dagger in real life or in fantasy based game is a handheld weapon that can be thrown but a javelin is always meant to be thrown but could be used as a handheld weapon.
But you also said 'Ranged weapons fall into one of two specific categories: Simple Ranged Weapon and Martial Ranged Weapons'. IN Sneak Attack - 'The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.' But all ranged weapon relay on the attack as range in the weapon properties.
It all comes down to the wording
Sneak Attack
Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe's distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
The Javelin has neither the finesse trait nor is it listed as a ranged weapon. Whereas the humble dagger has the finesse trait.
The thrown property doesn't matter. If it did, the feature would list it along with the finesse and light properties.
Having a range band or two does not turn a throwable melee weapon into a ranged weapon, even though you're making a ranged attack. If the same rogue were to take the [Tooltip Not Found] to throw an acid vial, they're making a ranged attack. They even get to add their Dexterity modifier to the damage. But it's not a ranged weapon, it's an improvised weapon. Similarly, the thrown property of the dagger, handaxe, and javelin allow you to make a ranged attack with a melee weapon.
Hey folks,
linking in a previous discussion on this, where the example used was spear.
Having the thrown weapon property does not cause a weapon to qualify for sneak attack.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/rogue/28299-sneak-attack-with-a-spear
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I have an idea for this. What if elven javelins have finesse? They'd be like a cool upgrade from darts. I understand that by the RAW a javelin does not qualify for sneak attack. But I do have a Str based Ranger/Barbarian/Rogue that would enjoy slinging some deadly javs every now and again. As it stands she might sometimes combine a longbow shot with a javelin toss. You could even have functional knock offs that a character could purchase to add a little surprise to their arsenal.
Life is the game.
You can always homebrew or DM Fiat something. RAW, a javelin doesn't work. But not everything has to go by RAW. Throw out the idea to your DM. You never know, unless you ask. Hope you have a high CHA and proficiency in Persuasion! :)
In D&D, just like the dagger a javelin is a melee weapon that can be thrown to make ranged attacks. No melee weapon can be used with Sneak Attack unless it has the finesse property.
As mentioned above, the answer is HOMEBREW a rule for the table.. it’s not going to be a ground breaking change in power or damage output, but the rules in place prevent a javelin, hand axe, spear, trident or any melee weapons from being categorized as a ranged weapon, even if they are thrown.
if anything, I would say add it to a specific PC as a home brew characteristic, as opposed to a global homebrew rule. Think of it this way, to use a finesse weapon or make a sneak attack is to be able to make a pinpoint strike, such as a gap in between the armor or a vital point on a targets body. You don’t see people making trick shots or bulls eyeing a small target with a larger thrown weapon like a javelin or spear. A hand axe has a much larger point of impact which is closer to a brute force strike rather than a pinpoint attack, and a trident causes 3 holes, not 1 on impact. If a specific PC is exceptionally talented, go ahead and let them… but it shouldn’t be a standard rule across the board
Well luckily I like to DM as much as play so I'd get to use the idea anyway. I like to create elven elite soldiers with a die or 2 of sneak attack damage so making elven weapons like javelins with finesse, or my standard Elven Mythral Glaive (finesse, +1, +2 vs undead, fiends and evil fey) feels right. I think it's critical for factions to have their own badass knights, and races like Elves and especially Dwarves to have unique gear that might not be magical. Dwarven nonmagical +1 plate for example (fitted, applies only to who it's made for), 2d6 dwarven heavy crossbows (no sneak attack). I don't know, gnome grenadiers?
Life is the game.
So, the way you describe that though falls more in lines with the ranger archetype rather than sneak attack... lots of ways to do additional weapon damage like 2d6 with different Hunter builds.. but sneak attack is more align specifically to pinpoint strikes. Regardless, name it or describe it however you like if it's a homebrew
"The way you describe that". I didn't go too far into it.
When you say it's more like a ranger do you mean colossus slayer and hunter's mark type stuff? Or do you mean the Glaives bonus against undead fiends and evil fey? Because that aspect of it I would agree is very much inspired by the ranger-y aspect of elves.
That glaive isn't something I designed for players generally, it's a trademark weapon of elven knights and having one could piss them off. I give Elven elite troops sneak attack and finesse weapons in a similar way to how hobgoblins get martial advantage, but with an emphasis on elven precision since sneak attack is for dex weapons, and yes as you said: pinpoint strikes. It also means that my elven knights are always angling for a tactical advantage, and their ranks could include people with battlemaster abilities like tripping attack or feint, or druids casting faerie fire. Or the elven classic, longbows from hiding.
Life is the game.
Sorry for the slow response.. must have missed your comment... was redering to the additonal damage, not the Elven Glaive detail you described
What I meant by "the way you describe it" was in reference to a Elite Elven soldiers... kind of gave me the image of a line of shield in one hand and javelin's in the other "Formation of soldiers". Each throwing their javilins in unison at a charging hoard of orcs. Yes you did not describe it that way specifically, but it's the image that came to mind. (Perhaps too much Tolkien in my childhood)
In that instance, again, i dont know if this is or isnt what you are implying... there would not necessarily be attack advantage if the enemies were charging unless there was an external factor here, and an ally would not necessarily be adjacent of they had the room to run forward. So Sneak Attack doesn't trigger in that scenario. With the Ranger-hunters colossal slayer or any other subclass variations of that damage buff, the target doesn't need to be adjacent to an ally or provide Advantage to incoming attack rolls... yes, colossal slayer specifically says they need to be injured first.. but the variation of that extra for of damage comes in different forms from each subclass. Hunters just have the ability to use Collosal Slayer and that Tasha's optional rule to stack extra damage as an example, without needing the flavor of sneak atttack
Basically, I'm just saying if you want to add this additional 2d6 or 3d6 damage, it doesnt have to come from a rogue sneak attack... there are other options that can work too. Just trying to provide some mechanical help if youre home brewing