So the hardest part of making a sorcerer, as I'm sure many of you are painfully aware, is spell selection. IMO each spell chosen must either be exceptionally powerful or provide a wide variety of uses, given whatever role your sorcerer is filling within the party.
To that end, I'm asking for player input on the Thunderwave spell. I was initially excited about this spell as I thought it provided a useful defensive application along with a simply being an AoE dmg spell. But the more I'm thinking about it, and looking at other spell options (especially later on), I'm not so sure I'd use Thunderwave all that much. Here is my thinking:
I initially saw Thunderwave as an answer to what to do when you start your turn with a monster in your face. The scenario could go: Use bonus action on quickened Thunderwave. If monster fails save(Woot!), move away and use main action on a cantrip. If monster passes save(Curses!), then you are forced to use your main action for disengage or risk eating further melee attacks. In this scenario you are risking doing little damage (half of the thunderwave) that round or possibly getting smacked in the face, all for some added cantrip dmg.
Compare the Thunderwave option to this: Simply use main action to disengage. Then use bonus action on quickened fireball, or sunburst or whatever.
Or even this option: Use main action for shocking grasp. If it hits, move away and use bonus action for quickened spell (fireball etc...). If it misses, then use bonus action for misty step or quickened dimension door if you don't have it. Either way, you're not possibly losing an extra spell slot when trying to get away from the monster. And you'd get advantage on the melee spell attack if the monster has metal armor.
It may just be that Thunderwave is one of those spells which loses its usefulness after a certain level. I just wanted to get people's opinion on perhaps what level would be best to dump this or if anyone has experience using this spell in other creative ways which I hadn't thought of yet. I figure at every sorcerer level, each spell has to earn its way onto the "spells known" list and I'm not sure how much Thunderwave is pulling its weight.
You've hit the most important points, based on my experience. Thunderwave is one of the best low level blast spells (far better IMO than Burning Hands, for instance), and I was happy to keep it on my Sorcerer for several levels. Once you get access to third level spells, however, the lower level AoEs really start to lose their punch. Couple that with the fact that enemies start hitting like trucks and have good CON saves at higher levels, Thunderwave begins looking less appealing.
It can be fun to keep around if you have the spells to spare (a rarity on a Sorcerer, as you mention) or are a Storm Sorcerer (for that disengage feature they have), but otherwise I think it's safe to drop it once you hit higher levels.
Thunderwave's usefulness does taper off at higher levels, yes. That said, one of my favorite moments with the spell though was when there were three enemies above us over pretty high wall. I Dimension Door'd up there with a Quickened spell, and used Thunderwave blasting two of them off and to their deaths. I multiclassed into a Fighter, and decided to go full ham and Action Surged to shove the last guy off. I was very, very pleased with how that panned out.
Thunderwave's usefulness does taper off at higher levels, yes. That said, one of my favorite moments with the spell though was when there were three enemies above us over pretty high wall. I Dimension Door'd up there with a Quickened spell, and used Thunderwave blasting two of them off and to their deaths. I multiclassed into a Fighter, and decided to go full ham and Action Surged to shove the last guy off. I was very, very pleased with how that panned out.
Cue Wilhelm scream.
I think Thunderwave is just fun for moving enemies through spaces to fish for attack of opportunities, pull em in with lightning lure, knock em away with thunderwave, if you are in the right spot you might be able to get your fighter(s) to get an extra attack on them as they move around too. But later on it is less impressive except is very specific situation. On a technicality you can't cast two spells with a level in the same round even if one is quickened, you could cast the dimension door and then a cantrip. But that is absolutely a DM preference thing.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Thunderwave's usefulness does taper off at higher levels, yes. That said, one of my favorite moments with the spell though was when there were three enemies above us over pretty high wall. I Dimension Door'd up there with a Quickened spell, and used Thunderwave blasting two of them off and to their deaths. I multiclassed into a Fighter, and decided to go full ham and Action Surged to shove the last guy off. I was very, very pleased with how that panned out.
Cue Wilhelm scream.
I think Thunderwave is just fun for moving enemies through spaces to fish for attack of opportunities, pull em in with lightning lure, knock em away with thunderwave, if you are in the right spot you might be able to get your fighter(s) to get an extra attack on them as they move around too. But later on it is less impressive except is very specific situation. On a technicality you can't cast two spells with a level in the same round even if one is quickened, you could cast the dimension door and then a cantrip. But that is absolutely a DM preference thing.
And I don’t believe being pushed past an enemy triggers an attack of opportunity. PHB 195 states that you don’t provoke an opportunity attack when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction. But I suppose it could setup some attacks from the fighter on his or her turn.
On a technicality you can't cast two spells with a level in the same round even if one is quickened, you could cast the dimension door and then a cantrip. But that is absolutely a DM preference thing.
It was. My DM allowed us if we had cast a spell, any other spell we would be able to cast would be 2nd or lower, so that particular scenario wouldn't work. Though, I guess an Eldrtich Blast from a Warlock with the repelling invocation could do something similar.
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So the hardest part of making a sorcerer, as I'm sure many of you are painfully aware, is spell selection. IMO each spell chosen must either be exceptionally powerful or provide a wide variety of uses, given whatever role your sorcerer is filling within the party.
To that end, I'm asking for player input on the Thunderwave spell. I was initially excited about this spell as I thought it provided a useful defensive application along with a simply being an AoE dmg spell. But the more I'm thinking about it, and looking at other spell options (especially later on), I'm not so sure I'd use Thunderwave all that much. Here is my thinking:
I initially saw Thunderwave as an answer to what to do when you start your turn with a monster in your face. The scenario could go: Use bonus action on quickened Thunderwave. If monster fails save(Woot!), move away and use main action on a cantrip. If monster passes save(Curses!), then you are forced to use your main action for disengage or risk eating further melee attacks. In this scenario you are risking doing little damage (half of the thunderwave) that round or possibly getting smacked in the face, all for some added cantrip dmg.
Compare the Thunderwave option to this: Simply use main action to disengage. Then use bonus action on quickened fireball, or sunburst or whatever.
Or even this option: Use main action for shocking grasp. If it hits, move away and use bonus action for quickened spell (fireball etc...). If it misses, then use bonus action for misty step or quickened dimension door if you don't have it. Either way, you're not possibly losing an extra spell slot when trying to get away from the monster. And you'd get advantage on the melee spell attack if the monster has metal armor.
It may just be that Thunderwave is one of those spells which loses its usefulness after a certain level. I just wanted to get people's opinion on perhaps what level would be best to dump this or if anyone has experience using this spell in other creative ways which I hadn't thought of yet. I figure at every sorcerer level, each spell has to earn its way onto the "spells known" list and I'm not sure how much Thunderwave is pulling its weight.
Thanks in advance for the insight!
You've hit the most important points, based on my experience. Thunderwave is one of the best low level blast spells (far better IMO than Burning Hands, for instance), and I was happy to keep it on my Sorcerer for several levels. Once you get access to third level spells, however, the lower level AoEs really start to lose their punch. Couple that with the fact that enemies start hitting like trucks and have good CON saves at higher levels, Thunderwave begins looking less appealing.
It can be fun to keep around if you have the spells to spare (a rarity on a Sorcerer, as you mention) or are a Storm Sorcerer (for that disengage feature they have), but otherwise I think it's safe to drop it once you hit higher levels.
Thunderwave's usefulness does taper off at higher levels, yes. That said, one of my favorite moments with the spell though was when there were three enemies above us over pretty high wall. I Dimension Door'd up there with a Quickened spell, and used Thunderwave blasting two of them off and to their deaths. I multiclassed into a Fighter, and decided to go full ham and Action Surged to shove the last guy off. I was very, very pleased with how that panned out.
On a technicality you can't cast two spells with a level in the same round even if one is quickened, you could cast the dimension door and then a cantrip. But that is absolutely a DM preference thing.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
It was. My DM allowed us if we had cast a spell, any other spell we would be able to cast would be 2nd or lower, so that particular scenario wouldn't work. Though, I guess an Eldrtich Blast from a Warlock with the repelling invocation could do something similar.