I’ll try and address the questions and issues brought up in some of the replies I haven’t addressed yet. Sorcerers are not wizards and they should NOT be! Wizards spend the time, effort, energy and ultimately their lives studying and perfecting magic. Sorcerers get access to make by virtue of their bloodline, as such their access to magic is and should be limited to the capabilities of their ancestry that is granting them magic. I still stand by the initial idea that sorcerers should have more metamagic options to choose from and be allowed to have more of them at level 3, at LEAST 3, possibly 4. But adding origin spell lists are easier to control and gauge balance for. So within that and understanding sorcerers are specialists imbued with specific types of magic by their ancestry and the scale and capabilities of their original subclass abilities is why their origin spell lists should only be 1 per spell level not 2. Also from a standpoint of sheet power these spells should not be changeable as the character levels. They should be fixed in place before the character first appears.
Addressing the subclass and the spell schools that the spells should be chosen from, Dragons are creatures of awe, power and destruction. Some dragons have additional abilities like the metallic dragons (FR lore), and only metallic dragons can shape shift. This is why draconic sorcerer are great blasters/strikers with secondary capabilities in being tough and also being social influencers. Shadow sorcerers are influenced by the Shadowfell, a place of lament, depression, negative energy and darkness (literal and sometimes figurative). This lends to shadow sorcerer being great manipulators of dark(necrotic) energies, darkness, and things that dwell there. So on the question of draconic sorcerers using transmutation spells, i would say that they shouldn’t have access to them as part of their origin spells because they just don’t fit the theme in my opinion as dragons are shapeshifters, except metallic dragons. Shadow sorcerers only thematic usage of conjuration spells would be 1, summon shadowspawn. Beyond that conjuration spells are not thematic for them, illusion to manipulate and harness “shadow stuff” and necromancy spells to harness negative energy is much more thematic.
After talking to my playtest group and with he changes made to the lunar sorcery subclass, we actually all agree that to bring the earlier subclasses up to this level 2 spells per spell level in their origin spell lists would be balanced so long as they spells aren't swappable later in the game.
I like Nerd Immersion's take on modifying the subclasses to mirror the Tasha's sorcerers. Having read this thread I do wonder if in actual play they'd be overtuned.
After a more testing on the Draconic Sorcerer we found a few more thematic solutions that don't add spells and play with the subclasses theme, dont run into the other classes lanes, give it enough oomph to really equal the new normal of the new sorcerer subclasses and not go too far. The other options are:
Give them elemental adapt for their damage type for free at level 1 and at level 18 have it treat immunity as resistance. At level 6 co-opt the aberrant mind feat that allows you to cast your spells, in this case all of them, for sorcery points equal to the spells level.
Give them metamagic adept for free at level 1. At level 6 give them elemental adept for their chosen that costs a spell point to activate and lasts for hour as well as resistance to the same element. At level 18 allow this feature to grant immunity to their selected element and to treat immunity as resistance.
Give them elemental adapt for their damage type for free at level 1 and at level 18 have it treat immunity as resistance.
1st-level is too early to be giving a free feat as a sub-class feature. It's worth keeping in mind that draconic bloodline's 1st-level feature is arguably one of the best 1st-level sorcerer sub-class features as it gives you a pretty big boost to durability (for a sorcerer), or at the very least saves you having to learn and cast mage armor, and it's a fully passive ability unlike others that have limited uses.
If you wanted to add free elemental adept it should probably be pushed back to the 6th-level feature to coincide with elemental affinity?
At level 6 co-opt the aberrant mind feat that allows you to cast your spells, in this case all of them, for sorcery points equal to the spells level.
This seems a bit much; while aberrant mind can swap out the spell list that their ability applies to, they still have a limited set of spells that this feature works with. If you wanted to go this route I'd maybe limit it to spells of your elemental type? So black dragon ancestry gives you the ability to cast acid spells with sorcery points and so-on?
I think the thing to keep in mind with draconic bloodline is that it starts strong, but it's the later level features that are pretty lacklustre:
Elemental Affinity: While +CHA damage isn't terrible the ability to gain resistance is so weirdly implemented since you need to cast a spell that probably won't be effective if you need the resistance in the first place (enemies that deal a lot of acid damage usually have resistance or immunity themselves). At the same level aberrant mind gets Psionic Sorcery and psychic damage, charmed and frightened resistance.
Draconic Wings: This is a nice feature, but the speed is a downgrade compared to the fly spell so it really needs a way to boost the speed IMO to act as a full replacement. That said it's identical to the Divine Soul's Otherworldly Wings and it still eliminates the need for the fly spell (for yourself at least).
Draconic Presence: While it's not a terrible feature it's just so lacklustre at this level. While it's a pretty good charm/frighten aura for 5 sorcery points, it occupies your concentration and at this level literally any bard, druid or wizard can turn into an actual dragon with Frightening Presence so it feels like a slap in the face to be one of the few classes that can't.
So these are the three you want to be improving IMO. An added spell list definitely helps with a sorcerer's otherwise pretty limited spell choices and has the advantage of not necessarily increasing the strength of a sub-class on its own (you're getting spells you might not normally be able to, or freeing up picks for others you want, but not gaining anything stronger than what you can normally have as such).
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Part of the co-opting the psionic sorcery feature for the draconic and allowing it to be used for any of the spells you know is only 1 more than the aberrant mind at level 6 and at level 7 through 9 with all 10 spells they are dead even. And I forgot to mention we tested it as you can't use it to cast spells higher than level 5 and you can upcast spells past their base level. Also we omitted the no verbal, somatic or material components part. The draconic sorcerer does get a baller 1 level feature, an extra HP per level and always on mage armor. But I don't think that compares to access to 10 additional spells. But maybe you're right that a full blown feat is too much, so maybe do the BG3 approach and add 1 one extra spell, either the ones from BG3, or just chromatic orb no matter the ancestor. Though that would give them a slight edge on the level 6 feature giving them 2 spells ahead at level 6 and 1 head form there on. But also not being able to upcast those spells with the feature I think would balance it out. As for the later features I do agree that the flight speed should match the fly spell speed.
This is how it reads right now. My group will test it on Thursday evening. I'm hoping this will be the final iteration of this subclass but I am always open to criticisms and suggestions in the mean time.
Dragon Ancestor
At 1st level, you choose one type of dragon as your ancestor. The damage type associated with each dragon is used by features you gain later.
Draconic Ancestry
Dragon
Damage Type
Black
Acid
Blue
Lightning
Brass
Fire
Bronze
Lightning
Copper
Acid
Gold
Fire
Green
Poison
Red
Fire
Silver
Cold
White
Cold
You can speak, read, and write Draconic. Additionally, you learn the spell chromatic orb, which doesn’t count against your number of sorcerer spells known.
Draconic Resilience
As magic flows through your body, it causes physical traits of your dragon ancestors to emerge. At 1st level, your hit point maximum increases by 1 and increases by 1 again whenever you gain a level in this class.
Additionally, parts of your skin are covered by a thin sheen of dragon-like scales. When you aren’t wearing armor, your AC equals 13 + your Dexterity modifier.
Elemental Affinity
Starting at 6th level, when you cast a spell that deals damage of the type associated with your draconic ancestry, you can add your Charisma modifier to one damage roll of that spell. At the same time, you can spend 1 sorcery point to gain resistance to that damage type for 1 hour.
Draconic Sorcery
When you cast any sorcery spell of 1st level or higher, you can cast it by expending a spell slot as normal or by spending a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level. If you cast the spell using sorcery points. You can't cast spells higher than the 5th level, spells cast with sorcery points may only be cast at their lowest level.
Dragon Wings
At 14th level, you gain the ability to sprout a pair of dragon wings from your back, gaining a flying speed equal to 60 feet. You can create these wings as a bonus action on your turn. They last until you dismiss them as a bonus action on your turn.
You can’t manifest your wings while wearing armor unless the armor is made to accommodate them, and clothing not made to accommodate your wings might be destroyed when you manifest them.
Draconic Presence
Beginning at 18th level, you can channel the dread presence of your dragon ancestor, causing those around you to become awestruck or frightened. As an action, you can spend 5 sorcery points to draw on this power and exude an aura of awe or fear (your choice) to a distance of 60 feet. For 1 minute or until you lose your concentration (as if you were casting a concentration spell), each hostile creature that starts its turn in this aura must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or be charmed (if you chose awe) or frightened (if you chose fear) until the aura ends. A creature that succeeds on this saving throw is immune to your aura for 24 hours.
Honestly we haven't even discussed the wild magic subclass. It has so many issues and drawbacks we just haven't discussed it and I personally don't know anyone who actually wants to play it.
Honestly we haven't even discussed the wild magic subclass. It has so many issues and drawbacks we just haven't discussed it and I personally don't know anyone who actually wants to play it.
*raises hand*
I want to play it. In fact I was very sorely put out when I started playing sorc and picked WM and found out how cruddy it was. I've discussed it elsewhere, but the main issue is that so much of your class is focused on wild magic surges, and those are things that are controlled by the GM mostly. So you basically get one advantage per long rest and then are dependent on the GM to see if anything even happens. If they don't have any rolls or whatever happen then you've basically got just bend luck (which is... meh) until level 18. In the past I've suggested giving the player control over when they surge. I would also be interesting in seeing how giving them additional metamagic helps out. Like, at level 14, you gain two additional metamagic. Or you can intentionally trigger off a surge to apply any one meta-magic to a spell that's a valid target for said metamagic (regardless of if you know said metamagic normally or not). But you're more focused on spell lists, so maybe instead some way to cast a random spell from a pre-determined list?
Playtest results and impressions on an updated Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer
The primary changes we made were:
1st level chromatic orb for free, can be cast without a focus for your selected element and with the diamond it may be cast as normal.
Elemental Affinity
At 6th level added spells you cast of your selected damage type ignore resistance and you gain resistance in in your selected damage type for 1 hour for 1 spell point.
Draconic Sorcery
Also at level 6 when you cast a spell of the 6th level or higher you can expend spell points equal to its its spell level. The spell can only be cast at its lowest level.
Note: it still requires any somatic, verbal or material components.
At 14th level the fly speed is changed 60 and made it last for 10 minutes and can only use used once per long rest. You can also expend a 3rd level spell slot or 5 sorcery points to manifest the wings again.
Upon play testing this we did find that these changed are a bit too powerful. We made the following changes:
Elemental Affinity
We changed the ignoring resistance from 1 hour to 1 minute for 1 sorcery point.
Draconic Sorcery
We also added the that you can use metamagic on a spell cast with this ability.
With these changes we feel it falls on par with the current post-Tasha’s sorcerers.
We used the same playtest procedure as before but we skipped the 3rd level one-shot.
After discovering a shenanigan with the "draconic sorcerer" feature we added and considering its co-opted from the aberrant mind we are either going to scratch that ability to drastically rework it.
Right now im toying with things that might grant additional sorcery points, reduce the cost of metamagics, reduce the cost of spell slot creation, OR allow the sorcerer to cast 1 known spell of the 3rd, 2nd and 1st level per day without expending a spell slot, essentially granting an additional spell slot for those 3 spell levels. The last one is the one I like the most but it might be too much. Thoughts?
I am open to suggestions for changes or replacement.
As nice as extra spell-slots are, if there's one class that doesn't need them it's sorc since it can shuffle them around with their points. I feel like additional points or, better yet, ways to increase their spell list/meta-magic would be universally more appreciated.
I see why wotc and others haven't really tried to do more with the class features. It's really hard at this point to come up with things that are thematic and dont run on another class or subclasses turf. I dont like give given more spells for this subclass though, so many others are getting that now. But maybe thats the only real answer. Either class universal spells or damage spells that work well with each damage type. I just think there has to be a better solution than that for the draconic bloodline.
What do you all think of adding some limited additional spells at level 6 instead of level 1? Since the draconic bloodline is so front loaded that is one of the issues I always have had with adding an expanded spell list but adding it as a second feature at level 6 I can see that making sense. Something like 2 first level spells, 2 second level spells and 1 3rd level spell?
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I’ll try and address the questions and issues brought up in some of the replies I haven’t addressed yet. Sorcerers are not wizards and they should NOT be! Wizards spend the time, effort, energy and ultimately their lives studying and perfecting magic. Sorcerers get access to make by virtue of their bloodline, as such their access to magic is and should be limited to the capabilities of their ancestry that is granting them magic. I still stand by the initial idea that sorcerers should have more metamagic options to choose from and be allowed to have more of them at level 3, at LEAST 3, possibly 4. But adding origin spell lists are easier to control and gauge balance for. So within that and understanding sorcerers are specialists imbued with specific types of magic by their ancestry and the scale and capabilities of their original subclass abilities is why their origin spell lists should only be 1 per spell level not 2. Also from a standpoint of sheet power these spells should not be changeable as the character levels. They should be fixed in place before the character first appears.
Addressing the subclass and the spell schools that the spells should be chosen from, Dragons are creatures of awe, power and destruction. Some dragons have additional abilities like the metallic dragons (FR lore), and only metallic dragons can shape shift. This is why draconic sorcerer are great blasters/strikers with secondary capabilities in being tough and also being social influencers. Shadow sorcerers are influenced by the Shadowfell, a place of lament, depression, negative energy and darkness (literal and sometimes figurative). This lends to shadow sorcerer being great manipulators of dark(necrotic) energies, darkness, and things that dwell there. So on the question of draconic sorcerers using transmutation spells, i would say that they shouldn’t have access to them as part of their origin spells because they just don’t fit the theme in my opinion as dragons are shapeshifters, except metallic dragons. Shadow sorcerers only thematic usage of conjuration spells would be 1, summon shadowspawn. Beyond that conjuration spells are not thematic for them, illusion to manipulate and harness “shadow stuff” and necromancy spells to harness negative energy is much more thematic.
After talking to my playtest group and with he changes made to the lunar sorcery subclass, we actually all agree that to bring the earlier subclasses up to this level 2 spells per spell level in their origin spell lists would be balanced so long as they spells aren't swappable later in the game.
I like Nerd Immersion's take on modifying the subclasses to mirror the Tasha's sorcerers. Having read this thread I do wonder if in actual play they'd be overtuned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ish69wz4NQc&t=323s
After a more testing on the Draconic Sorcerer we found a few more thematic solutions that don't add spells and play with the subclasses theme, dont run into the other classes lanes, give it enough oomph to really equal the new normal of the new sorcerer subclasses and not go too far. The other options are:
Give them elemental adapt for their damage type for free at level 1 and at level 18 have it treat immunity as resistance. At level 6 co-opt the aberrant mind feat that allows you to cast your spells, in this case all of them, for sorcery points equal to the spells level.
Give them metamagic adept for free at level 1. At level 6 give them elemental adept for their chosen that costs a spell point to activate and lasts for hour as well as resistance to the same element. At level 18 allow this feature to grant immunity to their selected element and to treat immunity as resistance.
Thoughts? Additional idea?
1st-level is too early to be giving a free feat as a sub-class feature. It's worth keeping in mind that draconic bloodline's 1st-level feature is arguably one of the best 1st-level sorcerer sub-class features as it gives you a pretty big boost to durability (for a sorcerer), or at the very least saves you having to learn and cast mage armor, and it's a fully passive ability unlike others that have limited uses.
If you wanted to add free elemental adept it should probably be pushed back to the 6th-level feature to coincide with elemental affinity?
This seems a bit much; while aberrant mind can swap out the spell list that their ability applies to, they still have a limited set of spells that this feature works with. If you wanted to go this route I'd maybe limit it to spells of your elemental type? So black dragon ancestry gives you the ability to cast acid spells with sorcery points and so-on?
I think the thing to keep in mind with draconic bloodline is that it starts strong, but it's the later level features that are pretty lacklustre:
So these are the three you want to be improving IMO. An added spell list definitely helps with a sorcerer's otherwise pretty limited spell choices and has the advantage of not necessarily increasing the strength of a sub-class on its own (you're getting spells you might not normally be able to, or freeing up picks for others you want, but not gaining anything stronger than what you can normally have as such).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Part of the co-opting the psionic sorcery feature for the draconic and allowing it to be used for any of the spells you know is only 1 more than the aberrant mind at level 6 and at level 7 through 9 with all 10 spells they are dead even. And I forgot to mention we tested it as you can't use it to cast spells higher than level 5 and you can upcast spells past their base level. Also we omitted the no verbal, somatic or material components part.
The draconic sorcerer does get a baller 1 level feature, an extra HP per level and always on mage armor. But I don't think that compares to access to 10 additional spells. But maybe you're right that a full blown feat is too much, so maybe do the BG3 approach and add 1 one extra spell, either the ones from BG3, or just chromatic orb no matter the ancestor. Though that would give them a slight edge on the level 6 feature giving them 2 spells ahead at level 6 and 1 head form there on. But also not being able to upcast those spells with the feature I think would balance it out.
As for the later features I do agree that the flight speed should match the fly spell speed.
This is how it reads right now. My group will test it on Thursday evening. I'm hoping this will be the final iteration of this subclass but I am always open to criticisms and suggestions in the mean time.
Dragon Ancestor
At 1st level, you choose one type of dragon as your ancestor. The damage type associated with each dragon is used by features you gain later.
Draconic Ancestry
Black
Acid
Blue
Lightning
Brass
Fire
Bronze
Lightning
Copper
Acid
Gold
Fire
Green
Poison
Red
Fire
Silver
Cold
White
Cold
You can speak, read, and write Draconic. Additionally, you learn the spell chromatic orb, which doesn’t count against your number of sorcerer spells known.
Draconic Resilience
As magic flows through your body, it causes physical traits of your dragon ancestors to emerge. At 1st level, your hit point maximum increases by 1 and increases by 1 again whenever you gain a level in this class.
Additionally, parts of your skin are covered by a thin sheen of dragon-like scales. When you aren’t wearing armor, your AC equals 13 + your Dexterity modifier.
Elemental Affinity
Starting at 6th level, when you cast a spell that deals damage of the type associated with your draconic ancestry, you can add your Charisma modifier to one damage roll of that spell. At the same time, you can spend 1 sorcery point to gain resistance to that damage type for 1 hour.
Draconic Sorcery
When you cast any sorcery spell of 1st level or higher, you can cast it by expending a spell slot as normal or by spending a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level. If you cast the spell using sorcery points. You can't cast spells higher than the 5th level, spells cast with sorcery points may only be cast at their lowest level.
Dragon Wings
At 14th level, you gain the ability to sprout a pair of dragon wings from your back, gaining a flying speed equal to 60 feet. You can create these wings as a bonus action on your turn. They last until you dismiss them as a bonus action on your turn.
You can’t manifest your wings while wearing armor unless the armor is made to accommodate them, and clothing not made to accommodate your wings might be destroyed when you manifest them.
Draconic Presence
Beginning at 18th level, you can channel the dread presence of your dragon ancestor, causing those around you to become awestruck or frightened. As an action, you can spend 5 sorcery points to draw on this power and exude an aura of awe or fear (your choice) to a distance of 60 feet. For 1 minute or until you lose your concentration (as if you were casting a concentration spell), each hostile creature that starts its turn in this aura must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or be charmed (if you chose awe) or frightened (if you chose fear) until the aura ends. A creature that succeeds on this saving throw is immune to your aura for 24 hours.
So what would you suggest for Wild Magic then? It is the most notoriously underpowered of the sorc origins.
Honestly we haven't even discussed the wild magic subclass. It has so many issues and drawbacks we just haven't discussed it and I personally don't know anyone who actually wants to play it.
*raises hand*
I want to play it. In fact I was very sorely put out when I started playing sorc and picked WM and found out how cruddy it was. I've discussed it elsewhere, but the main issue is that so much of your class is focused on wild magic surges, and those are things that are controlled by the GM mostly. So you basically get one advantage per long rest and then are dependent on the GM to see if anything even happens. If they don't have any rolls or whatever happen then you've basically got just bend luck (which is... meh) until level 18. In the past I've suggested giving the player control over when they surge. I would also be interesting in seeing how giving them additional metamagic helps out. Like, at level 14, you gain two additional metamagic. Or you can intentionally trigger off a surge to apply any one meta-magic to a spell that's a valid target for said metamagic (regardless of if you know said metamagic normally or not). But you're more focused on spell lists, so maybe instead some way to cast a random spell from a pre-determined list?
After discovering a shenanigan with the "draconic sorcerer" feature we added and considering its co-opted from the aberrant mind we are either going to scratch that ability to drastically rework it.
Right now im toying with things that might grant additional sorcery points, reduce the cost of metamagics, reduce the cost of spell slot creation, OR allow the sorcerer to cast 1 known spell of the 3rd, 2nd and 1st level per day without expending a spell slot, essentially granting an additional spell slot for those 3 spell levels. The last one is the one I like the most but it might be too much. Thoughts?
I am open to suggestions for changes or replacement.
As nice as extra spell-slots are, if there's one class that doesn't need them it's sorc since it can shuffle them around with their points. I feel like additional points or, better yet, ways to increase their spell list/meta-magic would be universally more appreciated.
I see why wotc and others haven't really tried to do more with the class features. It's really hard at this point to come up with things that are thematic and dont run on another class or subclasses turf. I dont like give given more spells for this subclass though, so many others are getting that now. But maybe thats the only real answer. Either class universal spells or damage spells that work well with each damage type. I just think there has to be a better solution than that for the draconic bloodline.
What do you all think of adding some limited additional spells at level 6 instead of level 1? Since the draconic bloodline is so front loaded that is one of the issues I always have had with adding an expanded spell list but adding it as a second feature at level 6 I can see that making sense. Something like 2 first level spells, 2 second level spells and 1 3rd level spell?