Yes, the bonus action spell rules are confusing and can lead to non-intuitive decisions. For example, you are a sorcerer grappled by a Behir working with a Mage. If you Dimension Door away, the Mage can Counterspell you, but you can Counterspell back, successfully escaping. But if you cast Misty Step instead, when the Mage casts Counterspell, you cannot cast Counterspell back because of the bonus action spell rules.
Yes, the bonus action spell rules are confusing and can lead to non-intuitive decisions. For example, you are a sorcerer grappled by a Behir working with a Mage. If you Dimension Door away, the Mage can Counterspell you, but you can Counterspell back, successfully escaping. But if you cast Misty Step instead, when the Mage casts Counterspell, you cannot cast Counterspell back because of the bonus action spell rules.
Not sure that is right. Specific always trumps General in 5e rules so in this case the Specific rule of when you can cast Counterspell I would argue overrides the general rule of spellcasting with bonus actions.
To Clarify- the rule on Counterspell is very specific in that it allows you to cast if you have your Reaction "* - which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell."
So if I use my bonus action to cast a (bonus action or quickened) cantrip before my action then I CANNOT cast a levelled spell with my action? Only a cantrip?
But if I use my action before my bonus action to cast my levelled spell then I CAN cast a bonus action cantrip? Or I use my action to cast a cantrip then I can cast a BA cantrip or BA levelled spell?
So if I use my bonus action to cast a (bonus action or quickened) cantrip before my action then I CANNOT cast a levelled spell with my action? Only a cantrip?
But if I use my action before my bonus action to cast my levelled spell then I CAN cast a bonus action cantrip? Or I use my action to cast a cantrip then I can cast a BA cantrip or BA levelled spell?
Seems counter intuitive.
If you use your bonus action to a cast spell of any kind then for the rest of your turn any spell you cast by using an action or reaction (on same turn, you're fine for reaction-casts after your turn) must be a cantrip.
If you first use your action, or reaction on your turn, to cast a spell of 1st level or higher then you cannot use your bonus action for any spell casting. If you used the action/reaction for a cantrip, you can still cast with the bonus action.
Basically, it doesn't matter what order: if your turn is going to have a spell cast with a bonus action than all other castings of spells on your turn must be a cantrip.
--
The design is so you cannot make insane combos like Sickening Radiance + Forcecage on one turn, or Polymorph then Power Word Kill. Especially since anything your char can do an enemy can do. You wouldn't like it if the enemy cast polymorph, counterspells your attempt to counterspell, then follows with a Power Word Kill to basically instant-kill your character, would you? Especially if that Sorc had a few levels of Divine school Wizard with a prerolled Nat 1 to force upon you using Portent. Nor would it be fun on the DM if you used that on their bosses every session.
I'd probably implement Matt Mercer's 1st campaign house rule: if you cast a spell using a bonus action and an action then one of them must be no higher than 2nd level. I believe he allows this as a feat and was featured in his Tal'dorei Campaign Guide.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
So if I use my bonus action to cast a (bonus action or quickened) cantrip before my action then I CANNOT cast a levelled spell with my action? Only a cantrip?
But if I use my action before my bonus action to cast my levelled spell then I CAN cast a bonus action cantrip? Or I use my action to cast a cantrip then I can cast a BA cantrip or BA levelled spell?
Seems counter intuitive.
If you use your bonus action to a cast spell of any kind then for the rest of your turn any spell you cast by using an action or reaction (on same turn, you're fine for reaction-casts after your turn) must be a cantrip.
If you first use your action, or reaction on your turn, to cast a spell of 1st level or higher then you cannot use your bonus action for any spell casting. If you used the action/reaction for a cantrip, you can still cast with the bonus action.
Basically, it doesn't matter what order: if your turn is going to have a spell cast with a bonus action than all other castings of spells on your turn must be a cantrip.
--
The design is so you cannot make insane combos like Sickening Radiance + Forcecage on one turn, or Polymorph then Power Word Kill. Especially since anything your char can do an enemy can do. You wouldn't like it if the enemy cast polymorph, counterspells your attempt to counterspell, then follows with a Power Word Kill to basically instant-kill your character, would you? Especially if that Sorc had a few levels of Divine school Wizard with a prerolled Nat 1 to force upon you using Portent. Nor would it be fun on the DM if you used that on their bosses every session.
I'd probably implement Matt Mercer's 1st campaign house rule: if you cast a spell using a bonus action and an action then one of them must be no higher than 2nd level. I believe he allows this as a feat and was featured in his Tal'dorei Campaign Guide.
I believe the specific rules of Reaction based spells override the general rules of bonus action spells. Each Reaction spell has a very specifically worded trigger and I believe this overrules the general rule against casting in the same turn as a bonus action spell. Otherwise for instance, Wizards would be significantly nerfed on when they could cast Shield.
Why do you feel it would be a significant nerf? The Counterspell situation I described above is about the only time the bonus action spell casting limitation would negatively impact a reaction spell.
So if I use my bonus action to cast a (bonus action or quickened) cantrip before my action then I CANNOT cast a levelled spell with my action? Only a cantrip?
But if I use my action before my bonus action to cast my levelled spell then I CAN cast a bonus action cantrip? Or I use my action to cast a cantrip then I can cast a BA cantrip or BA levelled spell?
Seems counter intuitive.
If you use your bonus action to a cast spell of any kind then for the rest of your turn any spell you cast by using an action or reaction (on same turn, you're fine for reaction-casts after your turn) must be a cantrip.
If you first use your action, or reaction on your turn, to cast a spell of 1st level or higher then you cannot use your bonus action for any spell casting. If you used the action/reaction for a cantrip, you can still cast with the bonus action.
Basically, it doesn't matter what order: if your turn is going to have a spell cast with a bonus action than all other castings of spells on your turn must be a cantrip.
--
The design is so you cannot make insane combos like Sickening Radiance + Forcecage on one turn, or Polymorph then Power Word Kill. Especially since anything your char can do an enemy can do. You wouldn't like it if the enemy cast polymorph, counterspells your attempt to counterspell, then follows with a Power Word Kill to basically instant-kill your character, would you? Especially if that Sorc had a few levels of Divine school Wizard with a prerolled Nat 1 to force upon you using Portent. Nor would it be fun on the DM if you used that on their bosses every session.
I'd probably implement Matt Mercer's 1st campaign house rule: if you cast a spell using a bonus action and an action then one of them must be no higher than 2nd level. I believe he allows this as a feat and was featured in his Tal'dorei Campaign Guide.
I believe the specific rules of Reaction based spells override the general rules of bonus action spells. Each Reaction spell has a very specifically worded trigger and I believe this overrules the general rule against casting in the same turn as a bonus action spell. Otherwise for instance, Wizards would be significantly nerfed on when they could cast Shield.
I disagree. In order for the specific to beat general the spell itself would have to say it was exempt from the bonus-action casting rules. They don't. Furthermore if reaction spells were exempt from the ruling this would be stated in the bonus-action casting rules. It doesn't. It simply says all other spells cast on the same turn.
Your Shield example is odd: there are extremely few instances where Shield spell would need to be cast on the caster's own turn as it is specifically design for other people's turns when they attack you (which, in most cases, they cannot do on your turn).
The reason why reaction spells on your turn are still bound by the bonus-cast rules is so you cannot just "hold the action" to then cast as a reaction to bypass it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Yes, using sourcerer with Quicken Magic, you can opt to cast 2 cantrips, and you can also opt to cast the same cantrip for both castings? so I have that about right?
Additionally, Metamagic says only one megamagic use per spell, not per turn. So with that said, could your quicken say a ray of frost for your bonus, and for your action twinned spell a firebolt?
Technically, you can cast up to 3 leveled spells in 1 turn using action surge and your reaction. But if you cast any spell with a bonus action, you can only cast cantrips with your action and can't cast them with your reaction until the end of your turn.
Strictly speaking, you can still cast cantrips with your reaction, but they have to have a casting time of 1 action. That said, while it would be possible to cause this using warcaster and held action movement, such a situation would be extremely unlikely in actual play.
Yes, using sourcerer with Quicken Magic, you can opt to cast 2 cantrips, and you can also opt to cast the same cantrip for both castings? so I have that about right?
Additionally, Metamagic says only one megamagic use per spell, not per turn. So with that said, could your quicken say a ray of frost for your bonus, and for your action twinned spell a firebolt?
So I have all of that more or less accurate?
Correct on all accounts, although there is one metamagic option, Empowered Spell, that can be used with other metamagic.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Yes. you can quicken a leveled spell and then twin a cantrip. It's fun to do at higher levels when your cantrips do a lot more damage. The cost to do so? Three sorcery points in one round. Yikes! Full disclosure I do it a lot because like I said, it's fun.
Also should point out that channeled spells (actions) are different which is why Sunbeam is popular. So you quicken Sunbeam, then use your cantrip. Sunbeam stays up as long as you don't lose concentration. It takes an action to use. So you quicken another leveled spell on your next turn and then use your action to create another beam of light using Sunbeam.. It's not casting a spell because it's already been cast. In that instance you do not need to cast a cantrip. I think Telekineses works the same way but I never take that spell so I'm not sure.
Unless Sage Advice has changed that but the last time I checked that was considered okay. :-)
People consistently say WRONG things about spell casting. They think the rule is 1 spell + a cantrip, except with action surge. The rule is the other way around, the limit is ONLY about Bonus Actions. If you cast a spell via a Bonus Action and a regular action, then one of them must be a cantrip. That is the only rule about leveled spells.
Even ignoring Time Stop, it is theoretically possible to cast 8 spells in a single round, 4 of which are leveled spells, and 4 of which are cantrips. It is a silly build, taking and using silly spells and silly actions, but it is totally legal.
This particular situation is very strange, and only occurs with a Tiefling Druid 1/ Fighter 2 / Rogue 17, if they cast no spells in the first round of combat, if they happen to get attacked at the exact right time with the exact right kind of attacks, and they foolishly choose to Nova through every single leveled spells as well as use some worthless spells. You use Action Surge and Thieves Reflex (2nd turn during the same round). You take 3 reactions in that one round, before your first turn, inbetween your turns, and again after your turn. You take two Bonus Actions (two turns), and three Actions (action surge + two turns). You are using the 2 spell slots from Druid, the 2 spells from Tiefling, and four Druid Cantrips - including the Bonus Action Cantrips they offer.
People consistently say WRONG things about spell casting. They think the rule is 1 spell + a cantrip, except with action surge. The rule is the other way around, the limit is ONLY about Bonus Actions. If you cast a spell via a Bonus Action and a regular action, then one of them must be a cantrip. That is the only rule about leveled spells.
Actually, the rule is if you cast ANY spell (cantrip or levelled) as a bonus action then all other spells cast that turn must be cantrips. Even if the bonus action spell is a cantrip: your action could only be a cantrip.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
He was referring to an older post when someone was posting on the wrong forum and brought up eldritch blast. It's somewhat applicable to the thread anyways when you start talking sorlock quickening EB at high levels for 8 beams at D10 +cha mod.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
That is not average... 8d10 at most is 80 which half of that is 40 so average is 40+40 so 80
Not sure who you were responding to and not inclined to go searching, but average on 8d10 is 44, so if there are two it would be 88.
Correct. And as an aside...
adding Critical Hit probability to this (as was done earlier) number would be fallacious, without considering the probability of hitting as well. Otherwise, one would be considering a roll of the dice on hits only, then adding the critical damage dice when rolling a Nat-20.
Essentially, if you did this you are adding the critical hit damage (which requires an attack roll) to an average that doesn’t consider an attack roll at all - therefore skewing the result.
Eg. Let’s look at 2d10 damage. You would say the average roll would be 11. And enterprising people would say that if you adjusted for critical hits the average damage would require to add 5% of an additional 11 damage for 11.55 “adjusted” damage. This indicates an increase of 5% damage on the attack.
But there’s a problem here. Let’s assume there’s an attack bonus of +6 vs an AC of 18. That’s a 45% chance of hitting and a 55% chance of missing. So in our example:
Eg. The average roll is 11, but average damage with an success % of 45% is now 4.95. And when we add the potential damage of a critical hit (still .55) we get an average damage of 5.5. That increase for critical hit is actually an 11.1% increase in damage, not 5% like the previous example.
In fact, the only scenario where you can even get close to only a 5% increase in damage from critical hits, is if you were a Halfling with an Attack Bonus as high as the AC of the target you’re hitting... and even then there’s a teeny bit of difference (probability of rolling two 1s).
This is why it’s very misleading when people poo-poo critical hit damage by comparing an extra doubled dice roll - “It’s only an extra 3.5 damage!” It’s not. It’s substantially more than that and the straight-across comparison is misrepresentative.
Well Damn! Consider me corrected lol. Been playing that wrong for a while now lol. My table won't love that rule clarification.
Yes, the bonus action spell rules are confusing and can lead to non-intuitive decisions. For example, you are a sorcerer grappled by a Behir working with a Mage. If you Dimension Door away, the Mage can Counterspell you, but you can Counterspell back, successfully escaping. But if you cast Misty Step instead, when the Mage casts Counterspell, you cannot cast Counterspell back because of the bonus action spell rules.
Not sure that is right. Specific always trumps General in 5e rules so in this case the Specific rule of when you can cast Counterspell I would argue overrides the general rule of spellcasting with bonus actions.
To Clarify- the rule on Counterspell is very specific in that it allows you to cast if you have your Reaction "* - which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell."
Just my 2 cents though.
So if I use my bonus action to cast a (bonus action or quickened) cantrip before my action then I CANNOT cast a levelled spell with my action? Only a cantrip?
But if I use my action before my bonus action to cast my levelled spell then I CAN cast a bonus action cantrip? Or I use my action to cast a cantrip then I can cast a BA cantrip or BA levelled spell?
Seems counter intuitive.
If you use your bonus action to a cast spell of any kind then for the rest of your turn any spell you cast by using an action or reaction (on same turn, you're fine for reaction-casts after your turn) must be a cantrip.
If you first use your action, or reaction on your turn, to cast a spell of 1st level or higher then you cannot use your bonus action for any spell casting. If you used the action/reaction for a cantrip, you can still cast with the bonus action.
Basically, it doesn't matter what order: if your turn is going to have a spell cast with a bonus action than all other castings of spells on your turn must be a cantrip.
--
The design is so you cannot make insane combos like Sickening Radiance + Forcecage on one turn, or Polymorph then Power Word Kill. Especially since anything your char can do an enemy can do. You wouldn't like it if the enemy cast polymorph, counterspells your attempt to counterspell, then follows with a Power Word Kill to basically instant-kill your character, would you? Especially if that Sorc had a few levels of Divine school Wizard with a prerolled Nat 1 to force upon you using Portent. Nor would it be fun on the DM if you used that on their bosses every session.
I'd probably implement Matt Mercer's 1st campaign house rule: if you cast a spell using a bonus action and an action then one of them must be no higher than 2nd level. I believe he allows this as a feat and was featured in his Tal'dorei Campaign Guide.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
I believe the specific rules of Reaction based spells override the general rules of bonus action spells. Each Reaction spell has a very specifically worded trigger and I believe this overrules the general rule against casting in the same turn as a bonus action spell. Otherwise for instance, Wizards would be significantly nerfed on when they could cast Shield.
Why do you feel it would be a significant nerf? The Counterspell situation I described above is about the only time the bonus action spell casting limitation would negatively impact a reaction spell.
I disagree. In order for the specific to beat general the spell itself would have to say it was exempt from the bonus-action casting rules. They don't. Furthermore if reaction spells were exempt from the ruling this would be stated in the bonus-action casting rules. It doesn't. It simply says all other spells cast on the same turn.
Your Shield example is odd: there are extremely few instances where Shield spell would need to be cast on the caster's own turn as it is specifically design for other people's turns when they attack you (which, in most cases, they cannot do on your turn).
The reason why reaction spells on your turn are still bound by the bonus-cast rules is so you cannot just "hold the action" to then cast as a reaction to bypass it.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
So let me see if I have this right.
Yes, using sourcerer with Quicken Magic, you can opt to cast 2 cantrips, and you can also opt to cast the same cantrip for both castings? so I have that about right?
Additionally, Metamagic says only one megamagic use per spell, not per turn. So with that said, could your quicken say a ray of frost for your bonus, and for your action twinned spell a firebolt?
So I have all of that more or less accurate?
Strictly speaking, you can still cast cantrips with your reaction, but they have to have a casting time of 1 action. That said, while it would be possible to cause this using warcaster and held action movement, such a situation would be extremely unlikely in actual play.
Correct on all accounts, although there is one metamagic option, Empowered Spell, that can be used with other metamagic.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Yes. you can quicken a leveled spell and then twin a cantrip. It's fun to do at higher levels when your cantrips do a lot more damage. The cost to do so? Three sorcery points in one round. Yikes! Full disclosure I do it a lot because like I said, it's fun.
Also should point out that channeled spells (actions) are different which is why Sunbeam is popular. So you quicken Sunbeam, then use your cantrip. Sunbeam stays up as long as you don't lose concentration. It takes an action to use. So you quicken another leveled spell on your next turn and then use your action to create another beam of light using Sunbeam.. It's not casting a spell because it's already been cast. In that instance you do not need to cast a cantrip. I think Telekineses works the same way but I never take that spell so I'm not sure.
Unless Sage Advice has changed that but the last time I checked that was considered okay. :-)
People consistently say WRONG things about spell casting. They think the rule is 1 spell + a cantrip, except with action surge. The rule is the other way around, the limit is ONLY about Bonus Actions. If you cast a spell via a Bonus Action and a regular action, then one of them must be a cantrip. That is the only rule about leveled spells.
Even ignoring Time Stop, it is theoretically possible to cast 8 spells in a single round, 4 of which are leveled spells, and 4 of which are cantrips. It is a silly build, taking and using silly spells and silly actions, but it is totally legal.
This particular situation is very strange, and only occurs with a Tiefling Druid 1/ Fighter 2 / Rogue 17, if they cast no spells in the first round of combat, if they happen to get attacked at the exact right time with the exact right kind of attacks, and they foolishly choose to Nova through every single leveled spells as well as use some worthless spells. You use Action Surge and Thieves Reflex (2nd turn during the same round). You take 3 reactions in that one round, before your first turn, inbetween your turns, and again after your turn. You take two Bonus Actions (two turns), and three Actions (action surge + two turns). You are using the 2 spell slots from Druid, the 2 spells from Tiefling, and four Druid Cantrips - including the Bonus Action Cantrips they offer.
Actually, the rule is if you cast ANY spell (cantrip or levelled) as a bonus action then all other spells cast that turn must be cantrips. Even if the bonus action spell is a cantrip: your action could only be a cantrip.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
That is not average... 8d10 at most is 80 which half of that is 40 so average is 40+40 so 80
Not sure who you were responding to and not inclined to go searching, but average on 8d10 is 44, so if there are two it would be 88.
He was referring to an older post when someone was posting on the wrong forum and brought up eldritch blast. It's somewhat applicable to the thread anyways when you start talking sorlock quickening EB at high levels for 8 beams at D10 +cha mod.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Correct. And as an aside...
adding Critical Hit probability to this (as was done earlier) number would be fallacious, without considering the probability of hitting as well. Otherwise, one would be considering a roll of the dice on hits only, then adding the critical damage dice when rolling a Nat-20.
Essentially, if you did this you are adding the critical hit damage (which requires an attack roll) to an average that doesn’t consider an attack roll at all - therefore skewing the result.
Eg. Let’s look at 2d10 damage. You would say the average roll would be 11. And enterprising people would say that if you adjusted for critical hits the average damage would require to add 5% of an additional 11 damage for 11.55 “adjusted” damage. This indicates an increase of 5% damage on the attack.
But there’s a problem here. Let’s assume there’s an attack bonus of +6 vs an AC of 18. That’s a 45% chance of hitting and a 55% chance of missing. So in our example:
Eg. The average roll is 11, but average damage with an success % of 45% is now 4.95. And when we add the potential damage of a critical hit (still .55) we get an average damage of 5.5. That increase for critical hit is actually an 11.1% increase in damage, not 5% like the previous example.
In fact, the only scenario where you can even get close to only a 5% increase in damage from critical hits, is if you were a Halfling with an Attack Bonus as high as the AC of the target you’re hitting... and even then there’s a teeny bit of difference (probability of rolling two 1s).
This is why it’s very misleading when people poo-poo critical hit damage by comparing an extra doubled dice roll - “It’s only an extra 3.5 damage!” It’s not. It’s substantially more than that and the straight-across comparison is misrepresentative.
I'm not checking your numbers, but I friggin' love this.
what about illusionist bracers + booming blade if you only have one attack per action