because sorcerous ancestors, patrons and/or the thing that blessed you with magic often have stat blocks themselves, and these stat blocks often have far weaker innate spellcasting than what you can eventiually become capable of, for instance the solar is only capable of a small handful of spells none of whom are higher than 5th level plus a few effects that spells could replicate like its teleportation, flying sword and healing touch, and dragon spellcasters can only cast spells whose level is no more than one third their challenge rating rounded down, so even the most powerful ancient gold and red dragons can only cast spells of at most 8th level, with most ancient dragons only being capable of casting at highest 7th or 6th level spells, heck an CR 1 dryad could bless a child at birth with the gift of sorcerery despite it only being capable of a few second level spells at most.
So then how do i justify that any old warlock or sorcerer can cast 9th level spells when the thing from wich my power is derived is not? is it a matter of my patron / ancestor being particularly powerful compared to ordinary instances of that creature? is the patron / ancestor just what provides the "spark" of magic, that you have then properly nurtured into something not seen before? Should i just accept this as a quirk of the rules that cannot be explained, and accept that we likely are not going to reach a level were your character outmatches their source or fight the power of our source?
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Given that most Sorcerer Origins don't come from creatures - I see no need for justification at all.
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You could also consider that the creature's magic has also contributed to its physical attributes and other characteristics. A sorcerer doesn't infuse themselves to nearly the same extent, so that leaves more to wield outright.
The common issue with sorcerers is that people conflate "origin" or "bloodline" with DNA.
That's not always what goes on. If you read the description of each subclass - with maybe the exception of Draconic - where your power comes from could be an ancestor but it could have just as well have been an event of some sort. I would argue that even with Draconic you could reflavor it so that your magic comes from an especially potent possibly traumatic interaction with a dragon. So there doesn't need to be a justification. Most of your relatives have weak magic but you by virtue of some event are particularly strong and that's why you can do more.
The common issue with sorcerers is that people conflate "origin" or "bloodline" with DNA.
That's not always what goes on. If you read the description of each subclass - with maybe the exception of Draconic - where your power comes from could be an ancestor but it could have just as well have been an event of some sort. I would argue that even with Draconic you could reflavor it so that your magic comes from an especially potent possibly traumatic interaction with a dragon. So there doesn't need to be a justification. Most of your relatives have weak magic but you by virtue of some event are particularly strong and that's why you can do more.
yes but plenty of sorcerous origins (divine soul, shadow, dragonic and storm) present "a magical was your ancestors" as one possible way you could have attained your powers, and every single one presents "an interaction with an magical being granted you your powers". I am asking about sorcerers that do come from the linneage of an creature here or from otherwise being granted their powers how they could justify their magic eventiually outperforming that wich gave them their power
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
So the being that gives you the magic really only puts a spark, a tiny bit of magic in you. Once this bit of magic is in you that's just cantrips and some 1st level stuff, you do the rest of the work, learning to draw on more and more power as well as how to manipulate that spark. Basically you still work on increasing your power but you were given that first step unlike the wizard who had to do the entire process.
If a Lich could just pump out 17th level warlocks they would, then they'd dominate them or make them generals and whatnot. But they can't give up that much power so they give a Warlock a little bit of magic and then let them figure out the rest. I think Sorcerers are very similar, where you have Draconic ancestry that starts your magic path but you still have to actively work towards honing that skill and magic. This is why if a Sorcerer decides to multiclass in Fighter they don't become a stronger Sorcerer, since they stopped working on their Sorcerer magic and are focusing on something else. It's like any talent, you still have to practice.
Sorcery Origin just grants you potential. Imagine your character is a fire pit. Your Origin is a spark that set creates a tiny flame (level 1). You then feed that flame until its a full bonfire.
It doesn't matter where you get that spark, because once its inside the sorcerer, its completely distinct from whatever gave you that spark. The size of the resulting flame depends entirely on how well you tend to that flame, what fuel you get, etc.
For the most part, arcane magic works by the manipulation of some kind of magical field. In Forgotten Realms, that's the Weave. In other settings, it can work by tapping into the Elemental Planes and pulling bits of them here. So, sorcerers have the ability to manipulate these fields with a kind of magical muscle, and doing more complex things with the magic just requires exercise and practice with said muscle, much like learning Parkour or skateboard tricks.
Despite sorcerer origins and warlock patrons having a ton of overlap, the two are fundamentally different when it comes to how they interact with, or rely on, said source. Warlocks need Patrons to learn any spells, or even have access to the energy to cast spells in some cases, whereas sorcerers just gain affinity for certain types of magic.
Despite sorcerer origins and warlock patrons having a ton of overlap, the two are fundamentally different when it comes to how they interact with, or rely on, said source. Warlocks need Patrons to learn any spells, or even have access to the energy to cast spells in some cases, whereas sorcerers just gain affinity for certain types of magic.
nothing in the players handbook states that some warlocks derives the energy needed to cast their spells from their patron (though that is a really popular way to flavour the class and it makes some amount of sense), and it implies says that some of your spells are learned from study not related to your patron as per "Your arcane research and the magic bestowed on you by your patron have given you facility with spells", though of course there are many ways to read into those words and what they mean
So the being that gives you the magic really only puts a spark, a tiny bit of magic in you. Once this bit of magic is in you that's just cantrips and some 1st level stuff, you do the rest of the work, learning to draw on more and more power as well as how to manipulate that spark. Basically you still work on increasing your power but you were given that first step unlike the wizard who had to do the entire process.
If a Lich could just pump out 17th level warlocks they would, then they'd dominate them or make them generals and whatnot. But they can't give up that much power so they give a Warlock a little bit of magic and then let them figure out the rest. I think Sorcerers are very similar, where you have Draconic ancestry that starts your magic path but you still have to actively work towards honing that skill and magic. This is why if a Sorcerer decides to multiclass in Fighter they don't become a stronger Sorcerer, since they stopped working on their Sorcerer magic and are focusing on something else. It's like any talent, you still have to practice.
i've seen it before, i think it does not quite mesh well with how warlocks and their powers are described (especially since a lot of a warlocks power is just knowledge that they apply, and a patron still has to know how to cast a 9th level spell for them to teach it to them) but it sounds really cool and is a neat explaination for sorcerers
but so yes, with like four different people each giving the same explanation, it seems that at least for sorcerers we have reached a consensus, something about seeds/ sparks/ magical potential that the sorcerer carefully nurtures to gain power
nothing in the players handbook states that some warlocks derives the energy needed to cast their spells from their patron
Actually, I was making a reference to the level 20 ability, which specifically involves pleading to your patron to restore your spell slots. And there's a few other bits and pieces about asking your patron for direct intervention lying around. So, some cases, and not nothing. Warlocks are weird.
For my Warlock explanation the post mentioned that patrons were like bankers and once you died they'd collect your soul to add the power you cultivated to yourself. You can do what you want but I think that fits for GOOlocks and Fiends really well.
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because sorcerous ancestors, patrons and/or the thing that blessed you with magic often have stat blocks themselves, and these stat blocks often have far weaker innate spellcasting than what you can eventiually become capable of, for instance the solar is only capable of a small handful of spells none of whom are higher than 5th level plus a few effects that spells could replicate like its teleportation, flying sword and healing touch, and dragon spellcasters can only cast spells whose level is no more than one third their challenge rating rounded down, so even the most powerful ancient gold and red dragons can only cast spells of at most 8th level, with most ancient dragons only being capable of casting at highest 7th or 6th level spells, heck an CR 1 dryad could bless a child at birth with the gift of sorcerery despite it only being capable of a few second level spells at most.
So then how do i justify that any old warlock or sorcerer can cast 9th level spells when the thing from wich my power is derived is not? is it a matter of my patron / ancestor being particularly powerful compared to ordinary instances of that creature? is the patron / ancestor just what provides the "spark" of magic, that you have then properly nurtured into something not seen before? Should i just accept this as a quirk of the rules that cannot be explained, and accept that we likely are not going to reach a level were your character outmatches their source or fight the power of our source?
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Given that most Sorcerer Origins don't come from creatures - I see no need for justification at all.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
You could also consider that the creature's magic has also contributed to its physical attributes and other characteristics. A sorcerer doesn't infuse themselves to nearly the same extent, so that leaves more to wield outright.
A sorcerer's origin just provides the spark that gives them spellcasting ability.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The common issue with sorcerers is that people conflate "origin" or "bloodline" with DNA.
That's not always what goes on. If you read the description of each subclass - with maybe the exception of Draconic - where your power comes from could be an ancestor but it could have just as well have been an event of some sort. I would argue that even with Draconic you could reflavor it so that your magic comes from an especially potent possibly traumatic interaction with a dragon. So there doesn't need to be a justification. Most of your relatives have weak magic but you by virtue of some event are particularly strong and that's why you can do more.
yes but plenty of sorcerous origins (divine soul, shadow, dragonic and storm) present "a magical was your ancestors" as one possible way you could have attained your powers, and every single one presents "an interaction with an magical being granted you your powers". I am asking about sorcerers that do come from the linneage of an creature here or from otherwise being granted their powers how they could justify their magic eventiually outperforming that wich gave them their power
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I saw a really good post about warlocks once.
So the being that gives you the magic really only puts a spark, a tiny bit of magic in you. Once this bit of magic is in you that's just cantrips and some 1st level stuff, you do the rest of the work, learning to draw on more and more power as well as how to manipulate that spark. Basically you still work on increasing your power but you were given that first step unlike the wizard who had to do the entire process.
If a Lich could just pump out 17th level warlocks they would, then they'd dominate them or make them generals and whatnot. But they can't give up that much power so they give a Warlock a little bit of magic and then let them figure out the rest. I think Sorcerers are very similar, where you have Draconic ancestry that starts your magic path but you still have to actively work towards honing that skill and magic. This is why if a Sorcerer decides to multiclass in Fighter they don't become a stronger Sorcerer, since they stopped working on their Sorcerer magic and are focusing on something else. It's like any talent, you still have to practice.
Sorcery Origin just grants you potential. Imagine your character is a fire pit. Your Origin is a spark that set creates a tiny flame (level 1). You then feed that flame until its a full bonfire.
It doesn't matter where you get that spark, because once its inside the sorcerer, its completely distinct from whatever gave you that spark. The size of the resulting flame depends entirely on how well you tend to that flame, what fuel you get, etc.
For the most part, arcane magic works by the manipulation of some kind of magical field. In Forgotten Realms, that's the Weave. In other settings, it can work by tapping into the Elemental Planes and pulling bits of them here. So, sorcerers have the ability to manipulate these fields with a kind of magical muscle, and doing more complex things with the magic just requires exercise and practice with said muscle, much like learning Parkour or skateboard tricks.
Despite sorcerer origins and warlock patrons having a ton of overlap, the two are fundamentally different when it comes to how they interact with, or rely on, said source. Warlocks need Patrons to learn any spells, or even have access to the energy to cast spells in some cases, whereas sorcerers just gain affinity for certain types of magic.
nothing in the players handbook states that some warlocks derives the energy needed to cast their spells from their patron (though that is a really popular way to flavour the class and it makes some amount of sense), and it implies says that some of your spells are learned from study not related to your patron as per "Your arcane research and the magic bestowed on you by your patron have given you facility with spells", though of course there are many ways to read into those words and what they mean
i've seen it before, i think it does not quite mesh well with how warlocks and their powers are described (especially since a lot of a warlocks power is just knowledge that they apply, and a patron still has to know how to cast a 9th level spell for them to teach it to them) but it sounds really cool and is a neat explaination for sorcerers
but so yes, with like four different people each giving the same explanation, it seems that at least for sorcerers we have reached a consensus, something about seeds/ sparks/ magical potential that the sorcerer carefully nurtures to gain power
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Actually, I was making a reference to the level 20 ability, which specifically involves pleading to your patron to restore your spell slots. And there's a few other bits and pieces about asking your patron for direct intervention lying around. So, some cases, and not nothing. Warlocks are weird.
For my Warlock explanation the post mentioned that patrons were like bankers and once you died they'd collect your soul to add the power you cultivated to yourself. You can do what you want but I think that fits for GOOlocks and Fiends really well.