Guidance requires an action on the part of the spell caster who casts it and it also requires concentration. The talisman just works for the character who is wearing it and the wording of the talisman says that the wearer can roll the d4 after they fail a check. The wording of Guidance says before or after they roll the dice. The player doesn’t always know that they’ve failed just based on the roll of the die because they don’t know the difficulty of the check.
The two both have good and bad points. I’d play either one depending on my character concept.
You only trigger the effect when you fail, so there's a smaller chance of "wasting" the effect - Guidance can be applied before the roll is made, potentially wasting the use of it
This one I do not understand as you have a limited amount of uses of the talisman while you have infinite uses of guidance. Failing after rolling the d4 still wastes the use....this is a huge disadvantage compared to guidance. "Wasting" guidance costs nothing as it costs nothing to cast.
The Warlock can give the talisman to other creatures, so they gain all the benefits of having the pact boon
Guidance can be cast on anyone so I get this one...but you can still do it with guidance.
It doesn't require an action to be able to gain the benefits - no need to prepare it before-hand - Guidance must be cast before the roll is made
This appears to be the only real advantage....but its such a small one when you look at the downsides I hardly think its worth it IMO.
Invocations are interesting but not overtly powerful. Tome lets you get all the ritual spells in the game and free death ward which I feel are at least as good as what you get with Talisman.
For me it seems to be pretty well worthless for the most part but I guess I see one potential upside now (No action to benefit)
I agree that Tome is better. But I think you're envisioning an ability check out of combat, and it is being discussed IN combat. Very different, as the primary resource being accounted for is action economy. Guidance eats both action economy and concentration, making it extremely expensive. The fact that it is a cantrip and can be cast again is irrelevant in combat, as the moment that you needed the boost has passed. You either made it or you didn't.
The comment about the Talisman not being wasted is in reference to the fact that you have a chance to pass the check without any assist. If you pass, no need to consume anything. If you fail the unassisted roll, you can THEN choose to use the Talisman. It is true that you might still fail. But the odds of wasting a very limited resource are much higher when you have to choose whether to use it or not before you know if it is needed.
In the case of Guidance, what you waste (the action and concentration) is spent before you even attempt the check. If you roll high, and don't need the d4, then that action and concentration is already spent and to no effect. Since there is the same chance of failing even with the additional d4, that portion of it is a wash.
I agree that Tome is better. But I think you're envisioning an ability check out of combat, and it is being discussed IN combat. Very different, as the primary resource being accounted for is action economy. Guidance eats both action economy and concentration, making it extremely expensive. The fact that it is a cantrip and can be cast again is irrelevant in combat, as the moment that you needed the boost has passed. You either made it or you didn't.
The comment about the Talisman not being wasted is in reference to the fact that you have a chance to pass the check without any assist. If you pass, no need to consume anything. If you fail the unassisted roll, you can THEN choose to use the Talisman. It is true that you might still fail. But the odds of wasting a very limited resource are much higher when you have to choose whether to use it or not before you know if it is needed.
In the case of Guidance, what you waste (the action and concentration) is spent before you even attempt the check. If you roll high, and don't need the d4, then that action and concentration is already spent and to no effect. Since there is the same chance of failing even with the additional d4, that portion of it is a wash.
Also, for outside of combat, theres no law saying you cant have someone in the party give you Guidance as well, potentially giving +2d4 to an ability check you fail. Not a huge benefit, but kinda neat.
Some of the invocations for the Talisman seem like they could be useful. Being able to teleport to another creature you give the talisman to could give some interesting exploration and mobility options. Imagine giving it to a character with a fly speed. Protection of the Talisman basically turns it into a limited single target Guidance + Bless that can be used longer as you level up (although won't affect attack rolls). Rebuke of the Talisman doesnt seem incredible but does give a little battlefield maneuvering.
I think the potential to use the Talisman pact well is definitely there, even if it doesn't quite stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the other pacts.
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Hol’up…. Guidance is a cantrip. Other than the Action to cast its absolutely free and has nearly ♾ uses. How can one “waste” something that’s both free and essentially unlimited. (24hr/day, 8hr long rest, 16hrs remaining. 10 actions/minute, 60mins/hr….) The average character could cast Guidance 9,600 times per day, Elves and Reborn could potentially cast it 12,000 per day…. Even the US government couldn’t find a way to squander a resource that easy to come by.
Hol’up…. Guidance is a cantrip. Other than the Action to cast its absolutely free and has nearly ♾ uses. How can one “waste” something that’s both free and essentially unlimited. (24hr/day, 8hr long rest, 16hrs remaining. 10 actions/minute, 60mins/hr….) The average character could cast Guidance 9,600 times per day, Elves and Reborn could potentially cast it 12,000 per day…. Even the US government couldn’t find a way to squander a resource that easy to come by.
The cost is an action. I mean, you can cast Guidance all day and keep it active constantly but that’s also an action spent not doing damage to a bad guy.
Out of combat, it stacks with bless and guidance, and only used when you fail. So really it has value in both situations.
Neither is that impressive out of the gate, probably only chain is. But with the right invocations or subclass they add more. Personally I think Talisman is the weakest of the 4 but its still a decent perk if you lean into it.
Neither is that impressive out of the gate, probably only chain is. But with the right invocations or subclass they add more. Personally I think Talisman is the weakest of the 4 but its still a decent perk if you lean into it.
Really?!? I think Blade is the weakest. I keep trying to want to use it and realizing I can make a more effective warlock with literally any of the other pact boons.
Neither is that impressive out of the gate, probably only chain is. But with the right invocations or subclass they add more. Personally I think Talisman is the weakest of the 4 but its still a decent perk if you lean into it.
Really?!? I think Blade is the weakest. I keep trying to want to use it and realizing I can make a more effective warlock with literally any of the other pact boons.
Blade is the weakest on its own, but if you lean into it its really good. Hexblade, GWM, PAM, blade with the right invocations and your DPR is top tier. It is so good at this stage that your character is defined by it. None of the other choices have that much impact when you focus around it. Lean into it a bit less and it can still be pretty effective. But if all you do is take it, yeah its pretty weak.
DPR ShmeePR. You can lean that hard into EB the same way with any of the other three Pact Boons and still be S tier. But it’s soooo boring. (And honestly, the EB lean has way more other advantages with the control aspect.) and between Hex, EB invoked our the wazoo, if you can tack on Spiritual Weapon too for some sweet BA action…. Damage is nice, but IMO combat is the most boring part of D&D. Chain, Tome, and Talisman are strong in combat (because Warlock), and they are useful the rest of the time too.
Guidance is amazing and I do think that talisman is a little weak compared to tome+boas, but the big thing for warlocks is the concentration.
You have 2 spell slots for most levels, and Hex is the best/only way to make those slots effective over multiple combats.
You have to choose weather to use guidance or lose your hex, and with such a limited amount of spells that is a huge price to pay.
Hex all day is fine and all but it's not like talisman is that much better then not having anything.
It's Proficiency bonus per day so you don't really get a lot of uses for the majority of actual play time.
Don't get me wrong, I think talisman is super crazy underpowered and that going tome for guidance is way better, but there are things that you can't do with it that do give talisman some merit for taking not counting invocation options.
1 Your cleric, druid, artificer, etc might already have guidance and unless your DM lets it stack then you having it is redundant 2 Combat, there are ability checks that matter in combat, for example if you conterspell you aren't going to be able to guidance yourself to buff it. 3 Concentration, specifically with hex and having to either lose you spell slot or not use guidance.
I think the big benefit of Pact of the Talisman comes from the Eldritch Invocations that go with it; but you really do need to be planning to build for it as a kind of supportlock:
Rebuke of the Talisman lets you deal psychic damage to enemies who hit the talisman holder and push them 10 feet.
Protection of the Talisman allows the talisman holder to also add a d4 to failed saving throws, and this uses its own pool of proficiency uses (not the ones you already have).
Bond the Talisman is a proficiency uses teleport with no range limit.
It also combines interestingly with the new Hexblood Lineage in Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft; if you make the talisman the same as your eerie token then you also have one-way telepathic messaging up to 10 miles, and you can use remote viewing through the talisman (though this does require creating a new one afterwards).
So yeah, I think if you build a character around the talisman then it's quite a fun feature, and this isn't even going into some of the spells you could potentially cast on the talisman or combo with some of its features. Is it weaker than Pact of the Tome? On its own probably, but it has a bunch of options you can't replicate, and it's quite an interesting theme that seems like it'd be a lot of fun if you lean into it.
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Even accounting for invocations it's still very weak when you compared to other pact boon invocations or just normal ones.
Rebuke requires you be within 30 feet, and you need to be able to see the target. This means you can't be behind cover, and you are also at the standard range for something to just walk up and melee you.
Protections is really good, by far the best reason to take this boon. But realistically you are going to be spending a lot of the uses on maintaining concentration since concentration spells are the best use of your limited spell slots. Eldritch mind is way better at that job for concentration checks, and you can get use it with better boons, and before you hit 7th level.
I think the big benefit of Pact of the Talisman comes from the Eldritch Invocations that go with it; but you really do need to be planning to build for it as a kind of supportlock:
Rebuke of the Talisman lets you deal psychic damage to enemies who hit the talisman holder and push them 10 feet.
Protection of the Talisman allows the talisman holder to also add a d4 to failed saving throws, and this uses its own pool of proficiency uses (not the ones you already have).
Bond the Talisman is a proficiency uses teleport with no range limit.
It also combines interestingly with the new Hexblood Lineage in Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft; if you make the talisman the same as your eerie token then you also have one-way telepathic messaging up to 10 miles, and you can use remote viewing through the talisman (though this does require creating a new one afterwards).
So yeah, I think if you build a character around the talisman then it's quite a fun feature, and this isn't even going into some of the spells you could potentially cast on the talisman or combo with some of its features. Is it weaker than Pact of the Tome? On its own probably, but it has a bunch of options you can't replicate, and it's quite an interesting theme that seems like it'd be a lot of fun if you lean into it.
It occurred to me, reading your post, that the strongest use of the Talisman might not be on the Warlock. I mean, the benefits go to the character who possesses it. If you were to give it to a character who is already strong in some areas, but may have weaknesses that you can address with the Talisman, then the net result might be far more effective than keeping it for yourself. The first thing that pops to mind is a Fighter or Barbarian to augment their saves and add to their retributive damage.
If you were already planning a back row play style, this might be fairly strong. Still probably not as strong as the Tome or Chain, in the same play style. But strong still.
I think the big benefit of Pact of the Talisman comes from the Eldritch Invocations that go with it; but you really do need to be planning to build for it as a kind of supportlock:
Rebuke of the Talisman lets you deal psychic damage to enemies who hit the talisman holder and push them 10 feet.
Protection of the Talisman allows the talisman holder to also add a d4 to failed saving throws, and this uses its own pool of proficiency uses (not the ones you already have).
Bond the Talisman is a proficiency uses teleport with no range limit.
It also combines interestingly with the new Hexblood Lineage in Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft; if you make the talisman the same as your eerie token then you also have one-way telepathic messaging up to 10 miles, and you can use remote viewing through the talisman (though this does require creating a new one afterwards).
So yeah, I think if you build a character around the talisman then it's quite a fun feature, and this isn't even going into some of the spells you could potentially cast on the talisman or combo with some of its features. Is it weaker than Pact of the Tome? On its own probably, but it has a bunch of options you can't replicate, and it's quite an interesting theme that seems like it'd be a lot of fun if you lean into it.
It occurred to me, reading your post, that the strongest use of the Talisman might not be on the Warlock. I mean, the benefits go to the character who possesses it. If you were to give it to a character who is already strong in some areas, but may have weaknesses that you can address with the Talisman, then the net result might be far more effective than keeping it for yourself. The first thing that pops to mind is a Fighter or Barbarian to augment their saves and add to their retributive damage.
If you were already planning a back row play style, this might be fairly strong. Still probably not as strong as the Tome or Chain, in the same play style. But strong still.
Honestly it feels this way too...which to be honest kinda sucks for the warlock them.
You do not get to use your own Pact if you go this route...which is likely ok but I would personally hate not having my own features. Its like an Artificer that would be expected to not use their own infusions....would feel notgoodman
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I am trying to wrap my head around the Pact of Talisman....
Features of Pact of Talisman:
Features of Guidance (from Pact of Tome)
You touch one willing creature. Once before the spell ends, the target can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to one ability check of its choice.
It can roll the die before or after making the ability check. The spell then ends.
From what I can tell Guidance is just straight up better....you get a d4, can roll after you see the result, has infinite uses.
Plus you get two other cantrips from ANY list...I do not see why anyone would pick the Talisman pact but I may be missing something.
Guidance requires an action on the part of the spell caster who casts it and it also requires concentration. The talisman just works for the character who is wearing it and the wording of the talisman says that the wearer can roll the d4 after they fail a check. The wording of Guidance says before or after they roll the dice. The player doesn’t always know that they’ve failed just based on the roll of the die because they don’t know the difficulty of the check.
The two both have good and bad points. I’d play either one depending on my character concept.
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This one I do not understand as you have a limited amount of uses of the talisman while you have infinite uses of guidance. Failing after rolling the d4 still wastes the use....this is a huge disadvantage compared to guidance. "Wasting" guidance costs nothing as it costs nothing to cast.
Guidance can be cast on anyone so I get this one...but you can still do it with guidance.
This appears to be the only real advantage....but its such a small one when you look at the downsides I hardly think its worth it IMO.
Invocations are interesting but not overtly powerful. Tome lets you get all the ritual spells in the game and free death ward which I feel are at least as good as what you get with Talisman.
For me it seems to be pretty well worthless for the most part but I guess I see one potential upside now (No action to benefit)
I would say the Talisman ability is more comparable to the Artificer's "Flash of Genius" feature rather than Guidance
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I agree that Tome is better. But I think you're envisioning an ability check out of combat, and it is being discussed IN combat. Very different, as the primary resource being accounted for is action economy. Guidance eats both action economy and concentration, making it extremely expensive. The fact that it is a cantrip and can be cast again is irrelevant in combat, as the moment that you needed the boost has passed. You either made it or you didn't.
The comment about the Talisman not being wasted is in reference to the fact that you have a chance to pass the check without any assist. If you pass, no need to consume anything. If you fail the unassisted roll, you can THEN choose to use the Talisman. It is true that you might still fail. But the odds of wasting a very limited resource are much higher when you have to choose whether to use it or not before you know if it is needed.
In the case of Guidance, what you waste (the action and concentration) is spent before you even attempt the check. If you roll high, and don't need the d4, then that action and concentration is already spent and to no effect. Since there is the same chance of failing even with the additional d4, that portion of it is a wash.
Also, for outside of combat, theres no law saying you cant have someone in the party give you Guidance as well, potentially giving +2d4 to an ability check you fail. Not a huge benefit, but kinda neat.
Some of the invocations for the Talisman seem like they could be useful. Being able to teleport to another creature you give the talisman to could give some interesting exploration and mobility options. Imagine giving it to a character with a fly speed. Protection of the Talisman basically turns it into a limited single target Guidance + Bless that can be used longer as you level up (although won't affect attack rolls). Rebuke of the Talisman doesnt seem incredible but does give a little battlefield maneuvering.
I think the potential to use the Talisman pact well is definitely there, even if it doesn't quite stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the other pacts.
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Hol’up…. Guidance is a cantrip. Other than the Action to cast its absolutely free and has nearly ♾ uses. How can one “waste” something that’s both free and essentially unlimited. (24hr/day, 8hr long rest, 16hrs remaining. 10 actions/minute, 60mins/hr….) The average character could cast Guidance 9,600 times per day, Elves and Reborn could potentially cast it 12,000 per day…. Even the US government couldn’t find a way to squander a resource that easy to come by.
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The cost is an action. I mean, you can cast Guidance all day and keep it active constantly but that’s also an action spent not doing damage to a bad guy.
Out of combat, it stacks with bless and guidance, and only used when you fail. So really it has value in both situations.
Guidance needs concentration, so no day-long Hex.
Neither is that impressive out of the gate, probably only chain is. But with the right invocations or subclass they add more. Personally I think Talisman is the weakest of the 4 but its still a decent perk if you lean into it.
Really?!? I think Blade is the weakest. I keep trying to want to use it and realizing I can make a more effective warlock with literally any of the other pact boons.
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Blade is the weakest on its own, but if you lean into it its really good. Hexblade, GWM, PAM, blade with the right invocations and your DPR is top tier. It is so good at this stage that your character is defined by it. None of the other choices have that much impact when you focus around it. Lean into it a bit less and it can still be pretty effective. But if all you do is take it, yeah its pretty weak.
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DPR ShmeePR. You can lean that hard into EB the same way with any of the other three Pact Boons and still be S tier. But it’s soooo boring. (And honestly, the EB lean has way more other advantages with the control aspect.) and between Hex, EB invoked our the wazoo, if you can tack on Spiritual Weapon too for some sweet BA action…. Damage is nice, but IMO combat is the most boring part of D&D. Chain, Tome, and Talisman are strong in combat (because Warlock), and they are useful the rest of the time too.
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Guidance is amazing and I do think that talisman is a little weak compared to tome+boas, but the big thing for warlocks is the concentration.
You have 2 spell slots for most levels, and Hex is the best/only way to make those slots effective over multiple combats.
You have to choose weather to use guidance or lose your hex, and with such a limited amount of spells that is a huge price to pay.
Hex all day is fine and all but it's not like talisman is that much better then not having anything.
It's Proficiency bonus per day so you don't really get a lot of uses for the majority of actual play time.
Don't get me wrong, I think talisman is super crazy underpowered and that going tome for guidance is way better, but there are things that you can't do with it that do give talisman some merit for taking not counting invocation options.
1 Your cleric, druid, artificer, etc might already have guidance and unless your DM lets it stack then you having it is redundant
2 Combat, there are ability checks that matter in combat, for example if you conterspell you aren't going to be able to guidance yourself to buff it.
3 Concentration, specifically with hex and having to either lose you spell slot or not use guidance.
I think the big benefit of Pact of the Talisman comes from the Eldritch Invocations that go with it; but you really do need to be planning to build for it as a kind of supportlock:
It also combines interestingly with the new Hexblood Lineage in Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft; if you make the talisman the same as your eerie token then you also have one-way telepathic messaging up to 10 miles, and you can use remote viewing through the talisman (though this does require creating a new one afterwards).
So yeah, I think if you build a character around the talisman then it's quite a fun feature, and this isn't even going into some of the spells you could potentially cast on the talisman or combo with some of its features. Is it weaker than Pact of the Tome? On its own probably, but it has a bunch of options you can't replicate, and it's quite an interesting theme that seems like it'd be a lot of fun if you lean into it.
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Even accounting for invocations it's still very weak when you compared to other pact boon invocations or just normal ones.
Rebuke requires you be within 30 feet, and you need to be able to see the target. This means you can't be behind cover, and you are also at the standard range for something to just walk up and melee you.
Protections is really good, by far the best reason to take this boon. But realistically you are going to be spending a lot of the uses on maintaining concentration since concentration spells are the best use of your limited spell slots. Eldritch mind is way better at that job for concentration checks, and you can get use it with better boons, and before you hit 7th level.
It occurred to me, reading your post, that the strongest use of the Talisman might not be on the Warlock. I mean, the benefits go to the character who possesses it. If you were to give it to a character who is already strong in some areas, but may have weaknesses that you can address with the Talisman, then the net result might be far more effective than keeping it for yourself. The first thing that pops to mind is a Fighter or Barbarian to augment their saves and add to their retributive damage.
If you were already planning a back row play style, this might be fairly strong. Still probably not as strong as the Tome or Chain, in the same play style. But strong still.
Honestly it feels this way too...which to be honest kinda sucks for the warlock them.
You do not get to use your own Pact if you go this route...which is likely ok but I would personally hate not having my own features. Its like an Artificer that would be expected to not use their own infusions....would feel notgoodman