I'm playing in a campaign that is not min/max focused. That to say, there are some options that just won't work for the rp of my character (the classic sorcerer17/warlock3 wombo combo). I'm playing a warlock who was cursed by his pact in a way and actually isn't very aware that it is a pact at all. He's starts out fearing it, slowly accepts it, and eventually learns to control it. Because of that, I'm considering a dip in another casting class (likely sorcerer since the flavor has the whole natural ability bit in there).
I've said we aren't min/max focused, but I still want to be sure I'm not just making throw-away decisions. So, background aside here, a 3 level dip in sorcerer to get some burnable slots for points and quickened metamagic (as well as way more cantrips than I'll ever need since I'm also likely taking pact of tome for ritual magic), what are the opinions on that versus just going full warlock?
My thoughts were, I can still quicken with eldritch blast hex combo for some solid damage or double cast eldritch blast, so that combo is still valid. In addition, I can burn either some of my level 1 slots or a single level 5 warlock slot to keep my sorcerer points flowing.
On the other hand, it does hold up my warlock progress for 3 levels. Looking for opinions.
Just go full Warlock unless you want to mc for flavor/rp reasons. The problem with going main warlock with only a dip into sorcerer (instead of the other way around) is that you won't even have enough sorcery points to quicken EB every round. You can do it once (because you are capped at 3 points), and then next round you have to recharge via bonus action, to do it again the subsequent round. If you want to also maybe use Hex or Misty Step or another bonus action ability/spell on one of your turns you may end up using quickened EB only once in an entire encounter.
Now this is not bad by any means, and absolutely playable if it suits your character concept, but of course you are significantly delaying your caster progression by dipping 3 levels. Keep in mind combat usually only lasts 3-4 rounds, so optimally a warlock shouldn't be EBing every round if he has more potent spells to cast (for example fear, hypnotic pattern, banishment, etc). And the sooner he has access to more powerful spells the better (and the difference between a 7th lvl warlock and a 3rdlvlsorc/4th lvl lock is two entire spell levels).
Later on once you have your Mystic Arcanums you essentially can cast spells just as much as any Wizard or Sorc in a given combat, utilizing a round to cast a mystic arcanum, subsequent rounds to cast 5th level spells, and probably only one or two rounds where you cast EB. And if you just want to shore up your damage you can also simply get crown of stars at higher level and do 4d12 damage as a bonus action (avg 26 dpr vs .15.75 dpr from quickened eldritch blast @lvl13, taking into account you can only use that every two turns at best)
Don't be a coward, go full Warlock. Multi-classing is for the weak and insecure.
Seriously, this is moronic and not helpful. Be a troll somewhere else.
Three levels of Sorcerer will give you more utility in terms of Spell slots, spell variety, sorcerous origin features and metamagic. You will also be able to turn unused Warlock spell slots into metamagic before each short rest...and back into sorcerer spell slots if need be. Careful resource allocation with probably allow you to quicken Eldritch Blast several times per long rest. That’s not too shabby considering EB is your bread and butter.
On the flip side you are delaying mystic arcanum as GreyZ mentioned.
Don't be a coward, go full Warlock. Multi-classing is for the weak and insecure.
Seriously, this is moronic and not helpful. Be a troll somewhere else.
He was asking for opinions. That is honestly my opinion.
What makes going strict Warlock better than multi-classing into another charisma based class?
Same as with any other full progression caster, faster access to higher level spells. People who actually play to higher levels know that being able to just flat out banish enemies onto other planes, instantly turn their brains to mush, making them fight each other, locking them into no-save-allowed force cage or turning the enemies side of the battlefield into one giant zone of death is far more worthwhile than trying to add a couple dX of damage every so often. And sure you might think "well eventually I get those cool things to" but by the time you get to them other casters have already moved on to even cooler and shinier things.
I believe we are only talking about a few levels of multiclassing here. A straight Warlock is going to have 1 extra once per day spell (mystic arcanum) over your sorlock. The delay in higher level warlock progression is not that severe...
Here are a few other benefits from the build you are proposing:
You’ll have six extra lower level spell slots that can be used to make your pact magic last longer. For example you could use a sorcerer spell slot to cast hex rather your pact magic. Has anyone really maintained concentration on this spell for 24 hours?
Subtle spell meta-magic will help you avoid being counter spelled by other magic users. Again another instance of preserving your pact magic and arcanum.
You’ll get access to great defensive spells like shield and absorb elements. Obviously these spells will help your survivability.
If you get a familiar through your ritual magic, I definitely suggest the sorcerer spell dragons breath. A firebreathing owl Is just awesome!
The divine soul sorcerer will grant you the favored by the gods feature and give you access to healing spells from the cleric spell list.
I believe we are only talking about a few levels of multiclassing here. A straight Warlock is going to have 1 extra once per day spell (mystic arcanum) over your sorlock. The delay in higher level warlock progression is not that severe...
Here are a few other benefits from the build you are proposing:
You’ll have six extra lower level spell slots that can be used to make your pact magic last longer. For example you could use a sorcerer spell slot to cast hex rather your pact magic. Has anyone really maintained concentration on this spell for 24 hours?
Subtle spell meta-magic will help you avoid being counter spelled by other magic users. Again another instance of preserving your pact magic and arcanum.
You’ll get access to great defensive spells like shield and absorb elements. Obviously these spells will help your survivability.
If you get a familiar through your ritual magic, I definitely suggest the sorcerer spell dragons breath. A firebreathing owl Is just awesome!
The divine soul sorcerer will grant you the favored by the gods feature and give you access to healing spells from the cleric spell list.
The trade off is a bit more severe than that if you look at the long run. Say lvl11 lock vs lvl8lock/3sorc you are really talking about having in average 3 less 5th level slots and one less 6th level slot per day and you are full two tiers of spells behind. You'll catch up to that in 3 levels, ie thats easily 10 or more sessions at that level. In average you will always be 1.5 tiers of spells behind.
Hex is also really not something you want to blow your concentration on at mid-high levels anymore. Hard CC like Fear or banishment, or spells that give you massive battlefield advantages like darkness, fly or Shadow of Moil or massive aoe/denial spells like sickening radiance are much better use of that.
So it's trade off for sure to get some additional low level utility vs more powerful spells, but really a sorlock will work better the other way around with main sorcerer and tip into warlock because that way you actually have the ability to stockpile sorcery points since you aren't limited to a pitiful 2 or 3 points and you have an overall smoother spell progression curve compared to the hard breakpoints you have with having warlock as your primary.
So it sounds like this is a utility vs power debate from what you guys are saying. Seems that the sorcerer dip gives me some flavor in cantrips and utility as well as some potentially cool combo moves that could boost survivability. Staying pure warlock gives me access to higher leveled spells more quickly, giving me more power in combat earlier. I feel like my character could float either way with the RP. I'm taking pact of tome, so my studies and attempts to control my power could fall into that if I need it to instead of a sorcerer dip.
I suppose a big question here is if I'll be ineffective at later levels. Say we're at the point where we are running a 9th level encounter. I'd have warlock6/sorcerer3 by that point. Does the utility from sorcerer still allow me effectiveness in battle? I'm thinking twinning hex or something of the sort, quickened EB. Granted, there'd be a round in between those moves where I'd need to bonus action a slot into sorcerer points. Does that grant enough to not be ineffective over just pure warlock advancement?
You should still be effective in combat at level 9 with a 3 level dip into Sorcerer. Yes, you won't have access to 4th / 5th level spells that you would have if you were pure Warlock, but your main bread and butter attack either way is still going to be Eldritch Blast. As a Warlock you've got two spell slots and Hex takes one of them if you are going to use it. Yes, you get them back after a short rest, but if you have to go through a couple of hard battles without a short rest, which happens a lot in the campaigns I play in, two spell slots don't go far.
As a pure Warlock, you will occasionally be able to a burst of damage that is greater than a Sorlock or possibly remove a combatant from the battlefield for a period of time. You need to weigh the trade-off between that occasional burst of extra damage over the utility you get with the 6 extra spell slots and metamagic.
I say go with your character concept. While you may be a little more effective in combat as a pure Warlock, you should be able to hold your own in combat as a Sorlock. Concept trumps min/max in my book, as long as the concept is still effective. Multiclassing Warlock with any charisma based caster is effective.
I think you’ll be fine. You will have quite a bit of magic at your fingertips from your tome + sorcerer and warlock spell slots. Remember to convert any unused warlock spell slots into metamagic before each short rest.
Playing a Warlock currently and found this thread while -- momentarily -- considering multi-classing. Haven't wanted to because every level of Warlock gives you something, but still... I dunno... I felt like I could maybe give more to my party if I branched out. That comment about sticking to your convictions -- dancing with the partner who brought you to the dance -- actually sat really well with me. I don't see it as trolling at all. And "moronic"? That's more than a little harsh. The comment directly after that says the same thing, just longer and with less "zing". I think a sound bite can be helpful sometimes. Does the next poster give us more juice? Yes. Is that the comment that will stick with me tomorrow? Or will I remember a one-liner saying what I already felt in my heart of hearts?
I personally dip my warlocks. I don't mind delaying warlock features because generally speaking, I don't view warlocks as full casters. That's just a little extra pizzazz to go with the fact that it's really an arcane archer.
Focusing on other builds though? I dipped warlock with a sorcerer and I regretted it. THAT was a full caster and I hamstrung it by delaying it's spell progression. I never intended it to just be an eldritch blast spammer, and I wouldn't repeat the mistake. It's really a matter of perspective on how you intend to play the character.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
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I'm playing in a campaign that is not min/max focused. That to say, there are some options that just won't work for the rp of my character (the classic sorcerer17/warlock3 wombo combo). I'm playing a warlock who was cursed by his pact in a way and actually isn't very aware that it is a pact at all. He's starts out fearing it, slowly accepts it, and eventually learns to control it. Because of that, I'm considering a dip in another casting class (likely sorcerer since the flavor has the whole natural ability bit in there).
I've said we aren't min/max focused, but I still want to be sure I'm not just making throw-away decisions. So, background aside here, a 3 level dip in sorcerer to get some burnable slots for points and quickened metamagic (as well as way more cantrips than I'll ever need since I'm also likely taking pact of tome for ritual magic), what are the opinions on that versus just going full warlock?
My thoughts were, I can still quicken with eldritch blast hex combo for some solid damage or double cast eldritch blast, so that combo is still valid. In addition, I can burn either some of my level 1 slots or a single level 5 warlock slot to keep my sorcerer points flowing.
On the other hand, it does hold up my warlock progress for 3 levels. Looking for opinions.
Don't be a coward, go full Warlock. Multi-classing is for the weak and insecure.
Abide.
Just go full Warlock unless you want to mc for flavor/rp reasons. The problem with going main warlock with only a dip into sorcerer (instead of the other way around) is that you won't even have enough sorcery points to quicken EB every round. You can do it once (because you are capped at 3 points), and then next round you have to recharge via bonus action, to do it again the subsequent round. If you want to also maybe use Hex or Misty Step or another bonus action ability/spell on one of your turns you may end up using quickened EB only once in an entire encounter.
Now this is not bad by any means, and absolutely playable if it suits your character concept, but of course you are significantly delaying your caster progression by dipping 3 levels. Keep in mind combat usually only lasts 3-4 rounds, so optimally a warlock shouldn't be EBing every round if he has more potent spells to cast (for example fear, hypnotic pattern, banishment, etc). And the sooner he has access to more powerful spells the better (and the difference between a 7th lvl warlock and a 3rdlvlsorc/4th lvl lock is two entire spell levels).
Later on once you have your Mystic Arcanums you essentially can cast spells just as much as any Wizard or Sorc in a given combat, utilizing a round to cast a mystic arcanum, subsequent rounds to cast 5th level spells, and probably only one or two rounds where you cast EB. And if you just want to shore up your damage you can also simply get crown of stars at higher level and do 4d12 damage as a bonus action (avg 26 dpr vs .15.75 dpr from quickened eldritch blast @lvl13, taking into account you can only use that every two turns at best)
Seriously, this is moronic and not helpful. Be a troll somewhere else.
Three levels of Sorcerer will give you more utility in terms of Spell slots, spell variety, sorcerous origin features and metamagic. You will also be able to turn unused Warlock spell slots into metamagic before each short rest...and back into sorcerer spell slots if need be. Careful resource allocation with probably allow you to quicken Eldritch Blast several times per long rest. That’s not too shabby considering EB is your bread and butter.
On the flip side you are delaying mystic arcanum as GreyZ mentioned.
He was asking for opinions. That is honestly my opinion.
Abide.
What makes going strict Warlock better than multi-classing into another charisma based class?
Same as with any other full progression caster, faster access to higher level spells. People who actually play to higher levels know that being able to just flat out banish enemies onto other planes, instantly turn their brains to mush, making them fight each other, locking them into no-save-allowed force cage or turning the enemies side of the battlefield into one giant zone of death is far more worthwhile than trying to add a couple dX of damage every so often. And sure you might think "well eventually I get those cool things to" but by the time you get to them other casters have already moved on to even cooler and shinier things.
I believe we are only talking about a few levels of multiclassing here. A straight Warlock is going to have 1 extra once per day spell (mystic arcanum) over your sorlock. The delay in higher level warlock progression is not that severe...
Here are a few other benefits from the build you are proposing:
You’ll have six extra lower level spell slots that can be used to make your pact magic last longer. For example you could use a sorcerer spell slot to cast hex rather your pact magic. Has anyone really maintained concentration on this spell for 24 hours?
Subtle spell meta-magic will help you avoid being counter spelled by other magic users. Again another instance of preserving your pact magic and arcanum.
You’ll get access to great defensive spells like shield and absorb elements. Obviously these spells will help your survivability.
If you get a familiar through your ritual magic, I definitely suggest the sorcerer spell dragons breath. A firebreathing owl Is just awesome!
The divine soul sorcerer will grant you the favored by the gods feature and give you access to healing spells from the cleric spell list.
The trade off is a bit more severe than that if you look at the long run. Say lvl11 lock vs lvl8lock/3sorc you are really talking about having in average 3 less 5th level slots and one less 6th level slot per day and you are full two tiers of spells behind. You'll catch up to that in 3 levels, ie thats easily 10 or more sessions at that level. In average you will always be 1.5 tiers of spells behind.
Hex is also really not something you want to blow your concentration on at mid-high levels anymore. Hard CC like Fear or banishment, or spells that give you massive battlefield advantages like darkness, fly or Shadow of Moil or massive aoe/denial spells like sickening radiance are much better use of that.
So it's trade off for sure to get some additional low level utility vs more powerful spells, but really a sorlock will work better the other way around with main sorcerer and tip into warlock because that way you actually have the ability to stockpile sorcery points since you aren't limited to a pitiful 2 or 3 points and you have an overall smoother spell progression curve compared to the hard breakpoints you have with having warlock as your primary.
So it sounds like this is a utility vs power debate from what you guys are saying. Seems that the sorcerer dip gives me some flavor in cantrips and utility as well as some potentially cool combo moves that could boost survivability. Staying pure warlock gives me access to higher leveled spells more quickly, giving me more power in combat earlier. I feel like my character could float either way with the RP. I'm taking pact of tome, so my studies and attempts to control my power could fall into that if I need it to instead of a sorcerer dip.
I suppose a big question here is if I'll be ineffective at later levels. Say we're at the point where we are running a 9th level encounter. I'd have warlock6/sorcerer3 by that point. Does the utility from sorcerer still allow me effectiveness in battle? I'm thinking twinning hex or something of the sort, quickened EB. Granted, there'd be a round in between those moves where I'd need to bonus action a slot into sorcerer points. Does that grant enough to not be ineffective over just pure warlock advancement?
You should still be effective in combat at level 9 with a 3 level dip into Sorcerer. Yes, you won't have access to 4th / 5th level spells that you would have if you were pure Warlock, but your main bread and butter attack either way is still going to be Eldritch Blast. As a Warlock you've got two spell slots and Hex takes one of them if you are going to use it. Yes, you get them back after a short rest, but if you have to go through a couple of hard battles without a short rest, which happens a lot in the campaigns I play in, two spell slots don't go far.
As a pure Warlock, you will occasionally be able to a burst of damage that is greater than a Sorlock or possibly remove a combatant from the battlefield for a period of time. You need to weigh the trade-off between that occasional burst of extra damage over the utility you get with the 6 extra spell slots and metamagic.
I say go with your character concept. While you may be a little more effective in combat as a pure Warlock, you should be able to hold your own in combat as a Sorlock. Concept trumps min/max in my book, as long as the concept is still effective. Multiclassing Warlock with any charisma based caster is effective.
I think you’ll be fine. You will have quite a bit of magic at your fingertips from your tome + sorcerer and warlock spell slots. Remember to convert any unused warlock spell slots into metamagic before each short rest.
I upvoted that comment.
Playing a Warlock currently and found this thread while -- momentarily -- considering multi-classing. Haven't wanted to because every level of Warlock gives you something, but still... I dunno... I felt like I could maybe give more to my party if I branched out. That comment about sticking to your convictions -- dancing with the partner who brought you to the dance -- actually sat really well with me. I don't see it as trolling at all. And "moronic"? That's more than a little harsh. The comment directly after that says the same thing, just longer and with less "zing". I think a sound bite can be helpful sometimes. Does the next poster give us more juice? Yes. Is that the comment that will stick with me tomorrow? Or will I remember a one-liner saying what I already felt in my heart of hearts?
I personally dip my warlocks. I don't mind delaying warlock features because generally speaking, I don't view warlocks as full casters. That's just a little extra pizzazz to go with the fact that it's really an arcane archer.
Focusing on other builds though? I dipped warlock with a sorcerer and I regretted it. THAT was a full caster and I hamstrung it by delaying it's spell progression. I never intended it to just be an eldritch blast spammer, and I wouldn't repeat the mistake. It's really a matter of perspective on how you intend to play the character.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha