A few things first as crzyhawk put it we are assuming 2 short rests and I think that can be a stretch, I think we need to ask if it is ok with 1 short rest which at level 9 that is still 5 5th level spells compared to 2. But beyond that we also aren't talking about the full value of the spells that the wizard has access to that the warlock doesnt for both upcasting AND for just casting at that level. We also aren't referring to times when we need to use a spell like remove curse or something that doesn't upcast at all. Or the better value 4th level spells the wizard has, some of which are just as powerful as some of the 5th level options that the warlock gets and the wizard gets 3 of those for a total of 2 5th and 3 4th or 5 casts the same as the warlock after 1 rest and after they use the 1 minute to get 1 back. And as unfavorable as this is to the warlock it pails in comparison to how unfavorable a comparison to the sorcerer this is.
The sorcerer gets spells known from their bloodline too so a similar if not more spells known by the sorc, then they have innate sorcery, they are a charisma caster just like the warlock so get the benefits that the warlock does for having good charisma. And then there is font of magic and sorcerous restoration meaning at level 9 they can get 2 5th level spells and sac 1 first level spell for another 5th level spell for 3 5th levels, and then all they need to sac is 2 3rd and 2 4th level slots for the other 2 5th level spells and the sorcerer would have just as many 5th level spells as a warlock and still have 3 first, 3 2nd, 1 3rd and 1 4th level spells left AND still have a better spells list. They do more damage at a range, have a better spell list, the same number of spells known and are good at the same skills while having better defensive spells and abilities for survival. The only think warlock is better than them at is if you go blade lock and go melee you can do more damage, but you will need to multi-class the warlock to match the sorcerer's defense at the same time.
Edit: in 2014 the spell issue was less of an issue because, compared to other casters, warlocks had EB dealing more single target damage than any other caster and dealing single target damage close to martials in addition warlocks still had access to some of powerful spell options through invocations as well as their normal spell list. The 2024, martials moved up in damage, other casters moved up in damage Warlocks stayed where they were. Sorcerers lost their only weakness in number of spells known and while warlocks got more spells known, they didn't typically have a problem with that because they knew so many more spells than they had spell slots to begin with. Then Warlocks lost access to a slew of good high level and mid level spells as well as a slew of higher level invocations making them scale worse by comparison to other casters because the strength of the warlock was normalized across other casters and the weakness of the warlock had a small band aid placed on it and then exacerbated further with the removal of thematic spells as options from their lists and the trimming of several high level invocations.
I suppose that is true but I have been playing for 20 years and never once have I gotten less than 1 short rest in a day and 2 has never been hard to come by. Even with all the hoops you jump through, it doesn't change the fact that warlock is casting the most mid level spells- far more than wizard and even with sorcerer if sorcerer basically burns most all of its resources to keep up. Which also means the sorcerer is frequently not using metamagic or subclass features that require sorcery points. You also conveniently ignored all of the points I made about being the best at information gathering with unlimited Speak with Dead, Arcane Eye, Disguise self and Invisible Imp Scout.
Any class looks bad if you blithely ignore its best features. The question was "What can a warlock do that a wizard cant?" and I have answered that in spades. They can spam fantastic exploration and RP spells on top of dropping more big heavy hitter spells in a typical day than a wizard.
Everyone always states you have to assume a 2 rest day to make warlock good but they never talk about the assumptions to make a wizard good. Ever played wizard in a low resource game? They aren't fun. If your DM is not dropping tons of gold for them to spend on their spellbook and tons of spell scrolls and enemy spell books to have spells to transcribe, then wizard gets very boring, very fast.
I suppose that is true but I have been playing for 20 years and never once have I gotten less than 1 short rest in a day and 2 has never been hard to come by. Even with all the hoops you jump through, it doesn't change the fact that warlock is casting the most mid level spells- far more than wizard and even with sorcerer if sorcerer basically burns most all of its resources to keep up. Which also means the sorcerer is frequently not using metamagic or subclass features that require sorcery points. You also conveniently ignored all of the points I made about being the best at information gathering with unlimited Speak with Dead, Arcane Eye, Disguise self and Invisible Imp Scout.
Any class looks bad if you blithely ignore its best features. The question was "What can a warlock do that a wizard cant?" and I have answered that in spades. They can spam fantastic exploration and RP spells on top of dropping more big heavy hitter spells in a typical day than a wizard.
Everyone always states you have to assume a 2 rest day to make warlock good but they never talk about the assumptions to make a wizard good. Ever played wizard in a low resource game? They aren't fun. If your DM is not dropping tons of gold for them to spend on their spellbook and tons of spell scrolls and enemy spell books to have spells to transcribe, then wizard gets very boring, very fast.
The 2024 wizard doesn't really need to add spells to their spell book anymore. They are fine without it with how many spells they get. This said yes, the sorcerer would be burning all of that, but the point of showing that was that even using their spell slots in the most inefficient way possible they could still out pace the casting (not the other utility) of a warlock pretty easily. They can do more single target damage, more AOE damage, have better control spells. I feel the difference between a 4th level and a 5th level spell are a little overblown. Heck in some cases the 3rd level spells are still just as good as a 5th level spell because we aren't exactly gaining a benefit from up cast remove curse, or hypnotic pattern and upcasting summon fey at 5 instead of 4 has minimal increased effect. But that said, no the warlock should never be useless in combat and they should regularly have at least 1 "bomb" they can cast per combat I have said that before.
Ultimately, the warlock effectively has 2 builds. 1 is the one you mentioned, the magical scout, as you pointed out it is the best at this just adding into what you said with the imp, the speak with the dead the arcane eye I am also going to add in abilities like at will invisibility in 2024 as long as you can step into dim light and add in devil sight and the new lessons of the first one to pick up useful origin feats. And ritual spells like speak with animals, comprehend languages and detect magic. If your party has a rogue or a ranger you might not want to go this build because you will be stepping on their toes and making the game unfun for them.
The second is the gish build, you go pact of the blade maybe take a dip into a martial class for weapon mastery and armor and you use great concentration spells along side really good single target melee damage.
Any other kind of build your probably better playing a wizard or a sorc or maybe a bard in the 2024 rules. I feel this because these other classes just got more to help than the warlock allowing them expand into areas that were once warlock territory.
I don't disagree with any of your points necessarily. I argue that Warlock fills a very solid spot as an all around support caster whether they go gish or not. On a short rest, they can bring more powerful and very useful magics than a martial could ever hope, like long range teleportation or information gathering. In later game, they can bring much of the same level of higher powered casting through Arcanum's. On the other hand, they are typically more durable in combat than your other full arcane casters with much more longevity in a grueling day and the ability to always bring near full martial levels of damage on a cantrip with extra free control on top of that via invocations (The cantrip invocations are the ONLY effect in the game that can force movement without a save I believe?). They aren't the best at anyone single thing but they are very strong generalists.
Also, I would argue warlock also excels at a 3rd build- Summoner. Most of the Summon spells are not on the sorcerer list and, while the wizard can upcast them (which is great), this is not the best use of most higher level wizard slots. Getting those 5th level slots back on a short rest to drop an extra Undead or Aberration or Greater Demon into battle can be game changing.
I don't disagree with any of your points necessarily. I argue that Warlock fills a very solid spot as an all around support caster whether they go gish or not. On a short rest, they can bring more powerful and very useful magics than a martial could ever hope, like long range teleportation or information gathering. In later game, they can bring much of the same level of higher powered casting through Arcanum's. On the other hand, they are typically more durable in combat than your other full arcane casters with much more longevity in a grueling day and the ability to always bring near full martial levels of damage on a cantrip with extra free control on top of that via invocations (The cantrip invocations are the ONLY effect in the game that can force movement without a save I believe?). They aren't the best at anyone single thing but they are very strong generalists.
Also, I would argue warlock also excels at a 3rd build- Summoner. Most of the Summon spells are not on the sorcerer list and, while the wizard can upcast them (which is great), this is not the best use of most higher level wizard slots. Getting those 5th level slots back on a short rest to drop an extra Undead or Aberration or Greater Demon into battle can be game changing.
The warlock being more durable than a normal full caster is actually the part that's just false. The d8 vs d6 is not as big a difference as what the wizard and sorc can get through the shield spell, absorb elements and their own armor and defensive stats. Not to mention bringing druid or bard in here and getting anything that gives them access to the shield spell. Warlocks are actually the squishiest full caster in the game. In addition, the summon spells scale with every other level so they don't really scale at 5 compared to 4 and 6 scales better than 5 or 4 because they get another attack. The fact that a wizard has better things to do than summon doesn't mean they are worse at summoning it just means summoning isn't as valuable as things they can do. So if the warlock is summoning it is doing something less valuable than the wizard is what you are saying. If summoning is valuable than the 3 4th level slots + 1 5th level slot + the slot they get back on a short rest will be equally as good as 5 5th level slots from the warlock, then the wizard still has 3 more 3rd level slots for what ever other combat thing is needed whether that is dispel magic, counter spell, or fire balls.
I don't disagree with any of your points necessarily. I argue that Warlock fills a very solid spot as an all around support caster whether they go gish or not. On a short rest, they can bring more powerful and very useful magics than a martial could ever hope, like long range teleportation or information gathering. In later game, they can bring much of the same level of higher powered casting through Arcanum's. On the other hand, they are typically more durable in combat than your other full arcane casters with much more longevity in a grueling day and the ability to always bring near full martial levels of damage on a cantrip with extra free control on top of that via invocations (The cantrip invocations are the ONLY effect in the game that can force movement without a save I believe?). They aren't the best at anyone single thing but they are very strong generalists.
Also, I would argue warlock also excels at a 3rd build- Summoner. Most of the Summon spells are not on the sorcerer list and, while the wizard can upcast them (which is great), this is not the best use of most higher level wizard slots. Getting those 5th level slots back on a short rest to drop an extra Undead or Aberration or Greater Demon into battle can be game changing.
The warlock being more durable than a normal full caster is actually the part that's just false. The d8 vs d6 is not as big a difference as what the wizard and sorc can get through the shield spell, absorb elements and their own armor and defensive stats. Not to mention bringing druid or bard in here and getting anything that gives them access to the shield spell. Warlocks are actually the squishiest full caster in the game. In addition, the summon spells scale with every other level so they don't really scale at 5 compared to 4 and 6 scales better than 5 or 4 because they get another attack. The fact that a wizard has better things to do than summon doesn't mean they are worse at summoning it just means summoning isn't as valuable as things they can do. So if the warlock is summoning it is doing something less valuable than the wizard is what you are saying. If summoning is valuable than the 3 4th level slots + 1 5th level slot + the slot they get back on a short rest will be equally as good as 5 5th level slots from the warlock, then the wizard still has 3 more 3rd level slots for what ever other combat thing is needed whether that is dispel magic, counter spell, or fire balls.
Shield, absorb elements etc show the double edged sword of pact magic. Even if a warlock gets access to the spells through like a sub class do they really want to drop one of their few 5th level slots on it. And this goes well beyond defensive spells like that. There are tons of 1st and 2nd level spells that come in clutch that a wiz/sor will have prepared/known. And its basically cost free to cast them at 10th level when the warlock is tossing those 5th level spells. I like that double edge sword gameplay, but its a weakness, a big one. But I am in the camp that believes weaknesses define and make a class more than their strengths do. So I love that aspect. They need some love but they remain my favorite class.
I don't disagree with any of your points necessarily. I argue that Warlock fills a very solid spot as an all around support caster whether they go gish or not. On a short rest, they can bring more powerful and very useful magics than a martial could ever hope, like long range teleportation or information gathering. In later game, they can bring much of the same level of higher powered casting through Arcanum's. On the other hand, they are typically more durable in combat than your other full arcane casters with much more longevity in a grueling day and the ability to always bring near full martial levels of damage on a cantrip with extra free control on top of that via invocations (The cantrip invocations are the ONLY effect in the game that can force movement without a save I believe?). They aren't the best at anyone single thing but they are very strong generalists.
Also, I would argue warlock also excels at a 3rd build- Summoner. Most of the Summon spells are not on the sorcerer list and, while the wizard can upcast them (which is great), this is not the best use of most higher level wizard slots. Getting those 5th level slots back on a short rest to drop an extra Undead or Aberration or Greater Demon into battle can be game changing.
The warlock being more durable than a normal full caster is actually the part that's just false. The d8 vs d6 is not as big a difference as what the wizard and sorc can get through the shield spell, absorb elements and their own armor and defensive stats. Not to mention bringing druid or bard in here and getting anything that gives them access to the shield spell. Warlocks are actually the squishiest full caster in the game. In addition, the summon spells scale with every other level so they don't really scale at 5 compared to 4 and 6 scales better than 5 or 4 because they get another attack. The fact that a wizard has better things to do than summon doesn't mean they are worse at summoning it just means summoning isn't as valuable as things they can do. So if the warlock is summoning it is doing something less valuable than the wizard is what you are saying. If summoning is valuable than the 3 4th level slots + 1 5th level slot + the slot they get back on a short rest will be equally as good as 5 5th level slots from the warlock, then the wizard still has 3 more 3rd level slots for what ever other combat thing is needed whether that is dispel magic, counter spell, or fire balls.
Shield, absorb elements etc show the double edged sword of pact magic. Even if a warlock gets access to the spells through like a sub class do they really want to drop one of their few 5th level slots on it. And this goes well beyond defensive spells like that. There are tons of 1st and 2nd level spells that come in clutch that a wiz/sor will have prepared/known. And its basically cost free to cast them at 10th level when the warlock is tossing those 5th level spells. I like that double edge sword gameplay, but its a weakness, a big one. But I am in the camp that believes weaknesses define and make a class more than their strengths do. So I love that aspect. They need some love but they remain my favorite class.
Same. Building around a warlocks strengths is still a lot of fun and letting others shine by allowing the weaknesses to be there is why I still find them great at any table. You just have to put in more effort for them to fulfill their role than other full casters, but I enjoy putting in that effort.
long story short: warlocks are very customizable. Some players don’t take advantage and yeah you get the “say the line” Bart Simpson meme “eldritch blast”.
but you can do a ton of other stuff with warlocks. With pact of tone, the right eldritch invocations. Using nothing but dimension door, meld into stone, and eldritch blast. You can harass and chip away and potshot to death most enemies way beyond your capability provided you can survive 1 hit from them. Outrun them via dimension door. And have stone to meld into to capitalize on your short rests. And you do so by never allowing the enemy itself to long rest.
if ANY class is worthless, compared to others, that is more of an indictment of the DM and their abilities, than of the class themselves.
"Warlocks are actually the squishiest full caster in the game."
That's certainly a take....
Warlock can pick up the Tough & Magic Initiate for shield via Lessons of the First Ones EASILY. They also don't need to spend a 1st level slot every morning for armor. They also have subclass features far more powerful in terms of survivability than Wizard. Fiend gets you a constantly updating stream of temp HP, bonuses for bad rolls and flexible resistance. Archfey gets you tactile teleportation with rider effects to keep you out of danger.
My point about Warlocks and summoning is that pact magic can be a lower opportunity cost spell slot for summoning than on a wizard. Burning a SR resource vs LR resource. [REDACTED] Ignoring everything they can do and highlighting what they can't isn't the point of the discussion. It was specifically asked what can they do that wizards can't.
Objectively wizards CAN'T cast infinite disguise self, silent image, arcane eye, speak with dead, levitate, mage armor, false life, alter self, invisibility, jump or Find Familiar (without cost). They also can't attack 3 times in a turn or summon an Imp familiar or command that Imp to attack or get any 3 cantrips and 2 rituals on demand or see through magical darkness. Or gain back spell slots more than once on a short rest. [REDACTED]
So ok- that's fine. You aren't a fan. [REDACTED]
Notes: Reminder users must be respectful of others even when they disagree.
[REDACTED] Warlocks are the squishiest caster. Yeah with lessons of the first one I can cast shield once, and then I'm blowing a pact slot on it. And that is just shield wizards will have even more defensive tricks at the ready for a low cost to them. And maybe you want to blow one of your precious invocations on tough as well, gee have at it, you survived one more hit but got hit 4 more times.
And yeah a wizard can't cast infinite whatever, but when do you need to. Its not infinite shields, its infinite disguise self etc, and since the game had those spells, so decades of playing I have almost never needed to cast them more than once a day. Don't get me wrong when you only got a hammer you start to see a lot of nails, so a warlock will find someway to cast change self an absurd amount of times. But outside a really niche situation, like once every few campaigns level niche it wont change the day. Some of the things are really good, like pact of the chain, a invisible disposable scout is great and at low levels they outfight the fighters.(bad design imo, they should scale with you so they maintain the same relative power. always far weaker than a PC, but always useful even in a fight), but that does not make them more tanky outside the scouting without skin in the game part(well it still costs gold).
Since 5e came out outside one game where I played a rogue/barbarian I have only played, sorcerers, wizards and warlocks. Warlocks more often than the rest. And warlocks have always been and still are the squishiest of the casters. They have so many get out of jail free cards with their spells they just end up with better defenses than the warlock and frequently better than the martials as shield builds aren't that common.
I love the class, it will be my first class to play in a game that allows them(next game that i play in is a hyrule themed game so a limited range of classes/races and I've been running the games since 2024 has came out), but they have a lot of weaknesses, and in 2024 they need some love. We played a short game not a full campaign when 2024 first came out that I played a warlock in, I wish it had gone on longer but life events crop up a lot at my age and the DM had to stop, so I don't really count that.
That was unjustifiably hostile. A different opinion isn't disingenuous, and they are actually correct in this case. Warlocks are the squishiest caster. Yeah with lessons of the first one I can cast shield once, and then I'm blowing a pact slot on it. And that is just shield wizards will have even more defensive tricks at the ready for a low cost to them. And maybe you want to blow one of your precious invocations on tough as well, gee have at it, you survived one more hit but got hit 4 more times.
And yeah a wizard can't cast infinite whatever, but when do you need to. Its not infinite shields, its infinite disguise self etc, and since the game had those spells, so decades of playing I have almost never needed to cast them more than once a day. Don't get me wrong when you only got a hammer you start to see a lot of nails, so a warlock will find someway to cast change self an absurd amount of times. But outside a really niche situation, like once every few campaigns level niche it wont change the day. Some of the things are really good, like pact of the chain, a invisible disposable scout is great and at low levels they outfight the fighters.(bad design imo, they should scale with you so they maintain the same relative power. always far weaker than a PC, but always useful even in a fight), but that does not make them more tanky outside the scouting without skin in the game part(well it still costs gold).
Since 5e came out outside one game where I played a rogue/barbarian I have only played, sorcerers, wizards and warlocks. Warlocks more often than the rest. And warlocks have always been and still are the squishiest of the casters. They have so many get out of jail free cards with their spells they just end up with better defenses than the warlock and frequently better than the martials as shield builds aren't that common.
I love the class, it will be my first class to play in a game that allows them(next game that i play in is a hyrule themed game so a limited range of classes/races and I've been running the games since 2024 has came out), but they have a lot of weaknesses, and in 2024 they need some love. We played a short game not a full campaign when 2024 first came out that I played a warlock in, I wish it had gone on longer but life events crop up a lot at my age and the DM had to stop, so I don't really count that.
My two cents…. Given limited context.
maybe you just don’t know how to properly play a warlock, and maybe you’ve had some bad DM’s.
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Early levels the extra hp provided by false life and the fact that the other arcane casters (sorc and wizard) still need to use their first level and second level slots for utility and combat will mean that the warlock will have greater durability, but them being squishier than the other casters at higher levels is not an indictment of the warlock, but a known fallacy about caster durability. The thought is because they have the lowest hit die of any class and can't wear armor that they are squishier, but once they get into the mid levels where they aren't really using 1st level spells besides ritual spells for anything super important and are instead relying on 2nd level spells for utility and 3rd+ level spells for combat their defenses are actually some of the most powerful in the game. This is especially true with 1 level armor dip multi-classes. A single dip into a cleric or fighter or half dozen other classes provides heavy armor or medium armor add in 4 to 7 casts of shield spell any time a creature does manage to beat their already high 18 to 20 AC to a 23 to 25 AC or 4 to 7 casts of absorb elements where even if they fail their dex save they take half damage or quarter damage if they succeeded and the d6 hit die has a closer EHP of a d20 hit die all of this happening off turn as a reaction and lasting the whole round making their action economy efficient and effective as well. The warlock can also get the armor from a 1 level dip, but due to the lack of first level and second level slots that they can burn as needed they won't be able to pump it or their resistance as needed. The warlock is still more than durable enough to be an adventurer, as I said not an indictment on the warlocks decent durability, it just doesn't match the defensive capabilities of the wizard, the sorcerer, the druid, the bard, or the cleric essentially all other full casters. Its defensive capabilities are closer to that of a rogue or a ranger.
Essentially at levels 1-3 the warlock is powerful, almost Over Powered with super powerful pet options, solid single target damage options and powerful defensive options and control options all of which they can fit onto a single build at this level. At levels 4-6 they are fairly well balanced and have some definite strengths and weaknesses and have a variety of ways they can be played depending on the direction you want to take, from 7 to 10 they really start to fall behind other casters, their are some niche playstyles and options that they can still do better than others, but compared to other casters they are going to start to fall behind the curve a little bit. Level 11 and 12 the warlocks get a huge jump in power and are pretty much back to on par with other full casters thanks to getting 1 extra 5th level slot per short rest, + 1 extra per use of their new 2024 feature to recover half their slots and some still solid options for 6th level spells including summon fiend. By 13+ they start to fall off again as the 7th level + mystic Arcanum's just don't keep up with what other casters can do with their 7th level slot between actual solid 7th+ level spell options and upcasting lower level spell options to these levels that the warlock can't do.
For example we really do not want to compare the warlocks 4 7th level spells options 2 of which are RP based options, 1 costs 1500 gold every time you cast it and the final is finger of death to the wizard getting simulacrum, reverse gravity, teleport in addition to all the same options the warlock gets or they can always just up cast their 5th level hold monster to hit 3 targets.
Again warlocks are not a bad class, they have some solid options and they start out much stronger than most classes, but they just don't scale to be as powerful as other casters at higher levels outside a couple niche options they need to build into at those levels. Multi-classing out of warlock past level 11 I believe is very reasonable (unless you are playing pact of the blade). If you plan it right you can get a epic boon feat at level 19 and level 20 bringing your charisma up to 22 at level 20 which is much better than the warlocks normal capstone.
(edit: one fun multi-class option for a caster warlock is to take true strike instead of EB and then go Rogue to get sneak attack, expertise and my favorite subclass is thief utilizing magic wands, scrolls and other magic items the warlock will want as a bonus action along side the normal stuff the warlock does).
Edit 2: to note about a previous point multiple abilities allow forced movement without saves now in martial classes especially so the warlocks repelling blast isn't special any more, in addition it got nerfed to only work on large and smaller creatures, and sorcerers and wizards can match warlock cantrip damage and utility in tier 2 of play if they want and can actually exceed single target ranged damage now if they want as well. Which is why I said warlocks lost some of their "Role" in 2024 as these casters used to have difficulty keeping up with the damage and utility of EB with their cantrips and now they don't have that struggle anymore and can match or exceed EB+AB in the mid levels and EB+AB now falls far behind martial capabilities.
Edit 3: also last note, find familiar for warlocks still has the 10 gold component cost that is consumed on cast there isn't anything that bypasses that cost and since it is a ritual spell any class with it has always been able to cast it without a slot, just takes a little more time. That said, chain lock still gets way better familiars, I almost don't care about arcane eye when I already have an invisible scout that can also use hands and is intelligent and DOESN'T use my concentration.
I've said my peace on most of this discussion but I will say, you are I are fully agreed on the dismal state of the warlock choices for Level 7 Mystic Arcanum. Losing Mass Suggestion for level 6 is also stupid but at least there are several decent level 6 options. If they didn't want every warlock to have access to them, I think WOTC really missed the boat on not adding additional Arcanum options for 6-9th level spells by Patron like when they added wish to the Genie patron warlock list. Something like this makes sense to me:
Fiend - lots of decent fire based options here with some control and telepathy since most high level fiends communicate that way
Mass Suggestion
Delayed Blast Fireball or Firestorm
Incendiary Cloud or Telepathy
Meteor swarm
Archfey - some decent enchantment and illusion options here
Ottos Irresistible Dance or Programmed Illusion
Mirage Arcane or Power Word Fortify
Illusory Dragon or Maze (Not a ton of great Fey trickster options here)
Time Stop
Celestial- honestly the easiest, lots of solid high level cleric options to choose from here
Heal or Heroes Feast
Conjure Celestial
Holy Aura
Mass Heal
Great Old One- this one is hard as most of the spells you would think for them are already on the warlock list
The lack of reverse gravity on the warlock list given repelling blast hurts my soul. That would be some of the most hilariously fun gameplay out there people floating 100 feet in the air getting launched out of the area, people out of the area getting shoved in and flung 100 feet into the air.
There comes a point when I start looking to my DM and go. Hey monsters can cast spells at higher levels without using a spell slot can I just choose a lower level spell like Hold monster and make that my 7th level mystic arcanum? Or if I am playing a Fey make Summon fey my 8th level mystic arcanum? but barring that I really start considering multi-classing after 11 so that level 12 and level 8 of the other class both end up being epic boon feats to double up on that but that means only 2 feats basically the whole game.
(edit: one fun multi-class option for a caster warlock is to take true strike instead of EB and then go Rogue to get sneak attack, expertise and my favorite subclass is thief utilizing magic wands, scrolls and other magic items the warlock will want as a bonus action along side the normal stuff the warlock does).
Even better is multiclassing with paladin, bard, and even fighter, as you get extra attack, a lot of attack and damage roll modifiers, and amazing critfishing.
There comes a point when I start looking to my DM and go. Hey monsters can cast spells at higher levels without using a spell slot can I just choose a lower level spell like Hold monster and make that my 7th level mystic arcanum? Or if I am playing a Fey make Summon fey my 8th level mystic arcanum? but barring that I really start considering multi-classing after 11 so that level 12 and level 8 of the other class both end up being epic boon feats to double up on that but that means only 2 feats basically the whole game.
Pre-2024 I aways wanted to do that with major illusion. In 2024 they dropped the permanent version to 5th level, I suspect as a subtle buff for warlocks. I do like a lot of the spells they have options for at those levels but not as your choice until your next level up. And it really hurts on ones like demi plane, love the spell. But as my only 8th level choice, that hurts. I don't see myself casting it every day or even every week. Now if they made a warlock spell that was like a upgraded magnificent mansion where it opened a door to a safe zone of your patrons plane that might be cool.
(edit: one fun multi-class option for a caster warlock is to take true strike instead of EB and then go Rogue to get sneak attack, expertise and my favorite subclass is thief utilizing magic wands, scrolls and other magic items the warlock will want as a bonus action along side the normal stuff the warlock does).
Even better is multiclassing with paladin, bard, and even fighter, as you get extra attack, a lot of attack and damage roll modifiers, and amazing critfishing.
Extra attack only works with the attack action, which you aren't using in the scenario I suggested because you didn't go pact of the blade and you want to use your charisma to attack. Those are great multi-classes for blade locks but my suggestion was for caster lock.
(edit: one fun multi-class option for a caster warlock is to take true strike instead of EB and then go Rogue to get sneak attack, expertise and my favorite subclass is thief utilizing magic wands, scrolls and other magic items the warlock will want as a bonus action along side the normal stuff the warlock does).
Even better is multiclassing with paladin, bard, and even fighter, as you get extra attack, a lot of attack and damage roll modifiers, and amazing critfishing.
Extra attack only works with the attack action, which you aren't using in the scenario I suggested because you didn't go pact of the blade and you want to use your charisma to attack. Those are great multi-classes for blade locks but my suggestion was for caster lock.
Why not go pact of the blade in this scenario? It lets you eldritch smite.
Extra attack is from valor bard and lets you cast true strike.
You need 13 levels in rogue for the use magic device feature: quite the caster lock.
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A few things first as crzyhawk put it we are assuming 2 short rests and I think that can be a stretch, I think we need to ask if it is ok with 1 short rest which at level 9 that is still 5 5th level spells compared to 2. But beyond that we also aren't talking about the full value of the spells that the wizard has access to that the warlock doesnt for both upcasting AND for just casting at that level. We also aren't referring to times when we need to use a spell like remove curse or something that doesn't upcast at all. Or the better value 4th level spells the wizard has, some of which are just as powerful as some of the 5th level options that the warlock gets and the wizard gets 3 of those for a total of 2 5th and 3 4th or 5 casts the same as the warlock after 1 rest and after they use the 1 minute to get 1 back. And as unfavorable as this is to the warlock it pails in comparison to how unfavorable a comparison to the sorcerer this is.
The sorcerer gets spells known from their bloodline too so a similar if not more spells known by the sorc, then they have innate sorcery, they are a charisma caster just like the warlock so get the benefits that the warlock does for having good charisma. And then there is font of magic and sorcerous restoration meaning at level 9 they can get 2 5th level spells and sac 1 first level spell for another 5th level spell for 3 5th levels, and then all they need to sac is 2 3rd and 2 4th level slots for the other 2 5th level spells and the sorcerer would have just as many 5th level spells as a warlock and still have 3 first, 3 2nd, 1 3rd and 1 4th level spells left AND still have a better spells list. They do more damage at a range, have a better spell list, the same number of spells known and are good at the same skills while having better defensive spells and abilities for survival. The only think warlock is better than them at is if you go blade lock and go melee you can do more damage, but you will need to multi-class the warlock to match the sorcerer's defense at the same time.
Edit: in 2014 the spell issue was less of an issue because, compared to other casters, warlocks had EB dealing more single target damage than any other caster and dealing single target damage close to martials in addition warlocks still had access to some of powerful spell options through invocations as well as their normal spell list. The 2024, martials moved up in damage, other casters moved up in damage Warlocks stayed where they were. Sorcerers lost their only weakness in number of spells known and while warlocks got more spells known, they didn't typically have a problem with that because they knew so many more spells than they had spell slots to begin with. Then Warlocks lost access to a slew of good high level and mid level spells as well as a slew of higher level invocations making them scale worse by comparison to other casters because the strength of the warlock was normalized across other casters and the weakness of the warlock had a small band aid placed on it and then exacerbated further with the removal of thematic spells as options from their lists and the trimming of several high level invocations.
I suppose that is true but I have been playing for 20 years and never once have I gotten less than 1 short rest in a day and 2 has never been hard to come by. Even with all the hoops you jump through, it doesn't change the fact that warlock is casting the most mid level spells- far more than wizard and even with sorcerer if sorcerer basically burns most all of its resources to keep up. Which also means the sorcerer is frequently not using metamagic or subclass features that require sorcery points. You also conveniently ignored all of the points I made about being the best at information gathering with unlimited Speak with Dead, Arcane Eye, Disguise self and Invisible Imp Scout.
Any class looks bad if you blithely ignore its best features. The question was "What can a warlock do that a wizard cant?" and I have answered that in spades. They can spam fantastic exploration and RP spells on top of dropping more big heavy hitter spells in a typical day than a wizard.
Everyone always states you have to assume a 2 rest day to make warlock good but they never talk about the assumptions to make a wizard good. Ever played wizard in a low resource game? They aren't fun. If your DM is not dropping tons of gold for them to spend on their spellbook and tons of spell scrolls and enemy spell books to have spells to transcribe, then wizard gets very boring, very fast.
The 2024 wizard doesn't really need to add spells to their spell book anymore. They are fine without it with how many spells they get. This said yes, the sorcerer would be burning all of that, but the point of showing that was that even using their spell slots in the most inefficient way possible they could still out pace the casting (not the other utility) of a warlock pretty easily. They can do more single target damage, more AOE damage, have better control spells. I feel the difference between a 4th level and a 5th level spell are a little overblown. Heck in some cases the 3rd level spells are still just as good as a 5th level spell because we aren't exactly gaining a benefit from up cast remove curse, or hypnotic pattern and upcasting summon fey at 5 instead of 4 has minimal increased effect. But that said, no the warlock should never be useless in combat and they should regularly have at least 1 "bomb" they can cast per combat I have said that before.
Ultimately, the warlock effectively has 2 builds. 1 is the one you mentioned, the magical scout, as you pointed out it is the best at this just adding into what you said with the imp, the speak with the dead the arcane eye I am also going to add in abilities like at will invisibility in 2024 as long as you can step into dim light and add in devil sight and the new lessons of the first one to pick up useful origin feats. And ritual spells like speak with animals, comprehend languages and detect magic. If your party has a rogue or a ranger you might not want to go this build because you will be stepping on their toes and making the game unfun for them.
The second is the gish build, you go pact of the blade maybe take a dip into a martial class for weapon mastery and armor and you use great concentration spells along side really good single target melee damage.
Any other kind of build your probably better playing a wizard or a sorc or maybe a bard in the 2024 rules. I feel this because these other classes just got more to help than the warlock allowing them expand into areas that were once warlock territory.
I don't disagree with any of your points necessarily. I argue that Warlock fills a very solid spot as an all around support caster whether they go gish or not. On a short rest, they can bring more powerful and very useful magics than a martial could ever hope, like long range teleportation or information gathering. In later game, they can bring much of the same level of higher powered casting through Arcanum's. On the other hand, they are typically more durable in combat than your other full arcane casters with much more longevity in a grueling day and the ability to always bring near full martial levels of damage on a cantrip with extra free control on top of that via invocations (The cantrip invocations are the ONLY effect in the game that can force movement without a save I believe?). They aren't the best at anyone single thing but they are very strong generalists.
Also, I would argue warlock also excels at a 3rd build- Summoner. Most of the Summon spells are not on the sorcerer list and, while the wizard can upcast them (which is great), this is not the best use of most higher level wizard slots. Getting those 5th level slots back on a short rest to drop an extra Undead or Aberration or Greater Demon into battle can be game changing.
The warlock being more durable than a normal full caster is actually the part that's just false. The d8 vs d6 is not as big a difference as what the wizard and sorc can get through the shield spell, absorb elements and their own armor and defensive stats. Not to mention bringing druid or bard in here and getting anything that gives them access to the shield spell. Warlocks are actually the squishiest full caster in the game. In addition, the summon spells scale with every other level so they don't really scale at 5 compared to 4 and 6 scales better than 5 or 4 because they get another attack. The fact that a wizard has better things to do than summon doesn't mean they are worse at summoning it just means summoning isn't as valuable as things they can do. So if the warlock is summoning it is doing something less valuable than the wizard is what you are saying. If summoning is valuable than the 3 4th level slots + 1 5th level slot + the slot they get back on a short rest will be equally as good as 5 5th level slots from the warlock, then the wizard still has 3 more 3rd level slots for what ever other combat thing is needed whether that is dispel magic, counter spell, or fire balls.
Shield, absorb elements etc show the double edged sword of pact magic. Even if a warlock gets access to the spells through like a sub class do they really want to drop one of their few 5th level slots on it. And this goes well beyond defensive spells like that. There are tons of 1st and 2nd level spells that come in clutch that a wiz/sor will have prepared/known. And its basically cost free to cast them at 10th level when the warlock is tossing those 5th level spells. I like that double edge sword gameplay, but its a weakness, a big one. But I am in the camp that believes weaknesses define and make a class more than their strengths do. So I love that aspect. They need some love but they remain my favorite class.
Same. Building around a warlocks strengths is still a lot of fun and letting others shine by allowing the weaknesses to be there is why I still find them great at any table. You just have to put in more effort for them to fulfill their role than other full casters, but I enjoy putting in that effort.
TLDR for thread-
long story short: warlocks are very customizable. Some players don’t take advantage and yeah you get the “say the line” Bart Simpson meme “eldritch blast”.
but you can do a ton of other stuff with warlocks. With pact of tone, the right eldritch invocations. Using nothing but dimension door, meld into stone, and eldritch blast. You can harass and chip away and potshot to death most enemies way beyond your capability provided you can survive 1 hit from them. Outrun them via dimension door. And have stone to meld into to capitalize on your short rests. And you do so by never allowing the enemy itself to long rest.
if ANY class is worthless, compared to others, that is more of an indictment of the DM and their abilities, than of the class themselves.
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"Warlocks are actually the squishiest full caster in the game."
That's certainly a take....
Warlock can pick up the Tough & Magic Initiate for shield via Lessons of the First Ones EASILY. They also don't need to spend a 1st level slot every morning for armor. They also have subclass features far more powerful in terms of survivability than Wizard. Fiend gets you a constantly updating stream of temp HP, bonuses for bad rolls and flexible resistance. Archfey gets you tactile teleportation with rider effects to keep you out of danger.
My point about Warlocks and summoning is that pact magic can be a lower opportunity cost spell slot for summoning than on a wizard. Burning a SR resource vs LR resource. [REDACTED] Ignoring everything they can do and highlighting what they can't isn't the point of the discussion. It was specifically asked what can they do that wizards can't.
Objectively wizards CAN'T cast infinite disguise self, silent image, arcane eye, speak with dead, levitate, mage armor, false life, alter self, invisibility, jump or Find Familiar (without cost). They also can't attack 3 times in a turn or summon an Imp familiar or command that Imp to attack or get any 3 cantrips and 2 rituals on demand or see through magical darkness. Or gain back spell slots more than once on a short rest. [REDACTED]
So ok- that's fine. You aren't a fan. [REDACTED]
[REDACTED] Warlocks are the squishiest caster. Yeah with lessons of the first one I can cast shield once, and then I'm blowing a pact slot on it. And that is just shield wizards will have even more defensive tricks at the ready for a low cost to them. And maybe you want to blow one of your precious invocations on tough as well, gee have at it, you survived one more hit but got hit 4 more times.
And yeah a wizard can't cast infinite whatever, but when do you need to. Its not infinite shields, its infinite disguise self etc, and since the game had those spells, so decades of playing I have almost never needed to cast them more than once a day. Don't get me wrong when you only got a hammer you start to see a lot of nails, so a warlock will find someway to cast change self an absurd amount of times. But outside a really niche situation, like once every few campaigns level niche it wont change the day. Some of the things are really good, like pact of the chain, a invisible disposable scout is great and at low levels they outfight the fighters.(bad design imo, they should scale with you so they maintain the same relative power. always far weaker than a PC, but always useful even in a fight), but that does not make them more tanky outside the scouting without skin in the game part(well it still costs gold).
Since 5e came out outside one game where I played a rogue/barbarian I have only played, sorcerers, wizards and warlocks. Warlocks more often than the rest. And warlocks have always been and still are the squishiest of the casters. They have so many get out of jail free cards with their spells they just end up with better defenses than the warlock and frequently better than the martials as shield builds aren't that common.
I love the class, it will be my first class to play in a game that allows them(next game that i play in is a hyrule themed game so a limited range of classes/races and I've been running the games since 2024 has came out), but they have a lot of weaknesses, and in 2024 they need some love. We played a short game not a full campaign when 2024 first came out that I played a warlock in, I wish it had gone on longer but life events crop up a lot at my age and the DM had to stop, so I don't really count that.
My two cents…. Given limited context.
maybe you just don’t know how to properly play a warlock, and maybe you’ve had some bad DM’s.
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Early levels the extra hp provided by false life and the fact that the other arcane casters (sorc and wizard) still need to use their first level and second level slots for utility and combat will mean that the warlock will have greater durability, but them being squishier than the other casters at higher levels is not an indictment of the warlock, but a known fallacy about caster durability. The thought is because they have the lowest hit die of any class and can't wear armor that they are squishier, but once they get into the mid levels where they aren't really using 1st level spells besides ritual spells for anything super important and are instead relying on 2nd level spells for utility and 3rd+ level spells for combat their defenses are actually some of the most powerful in the game. This is especially true with 1 level armor dip multi-classes. A single dip into a cleric or fighter or half dozen other classes provides heavy armor or medium armor add in 4 to 7 casts of shield spell any time a creature does manage to beat their already high 18 to 20 AC to a 23 to 25 AC or 4 to 7 casts of absorb elements where even if they fail their dex save they take half damage or quarter damage if they succeeded and the d6 hit die has a closer EHP of a d20 hit die all of this happening off turn as a reaction and lasting the whole round making their action economy efficient and effective as well. The warlock can also get the armor from a 1 level dip, but due to the lack of first level and second level slots that they can burn as needed they won't be able to pump it or their resistance as needed. The warlock is still more than durable enough to be an adventurer, as I said not an indictment on the warlocks decent durability, it just doesn't match the defensive capabilities of the wizard, the sorcerer, the druid, the bard, or the cleric essentially all other full casters. Its defensive capabilities are closer to that of a rogue or a ranger.
Essentially at levels 1-3 the warlock is powerful, almost Over Powered with super powerful pet options, solid single target damage options and powerful defensive options and control options all of which they can fit onto a single build at this level. At levels 4-6 they are fairly well balanced and have some definite strengths and weaknesses and have a variety of ways they can be played depending on the direction you want to take, from 7 to 10 they really start to fall behind other casters, their are some niche playstyles and options that they can still do better than others, but compared to other casters they are going to start to fall behind the curve a little bit. Level 11 and 12 the warlocks get a huge jump in power and are pretty much back to on par with other full casters thanks to getting 1 extra 5th level slot per short rest, + 1 extra per use of their new 2024 feature to recover half their slots and some still solid options for 6th level spells including summon fiend. By 13+ they start to fall off again as the 7th level + mystic Arcanum's just don't keep up with what other casters can do with their 7th level slot between actual solid 7th+ level spell options and upcasting lower level spell options to these levels that the warlock can't do.
For example we really do not want to compare the warlocks 4 7th level spells options 2 of which are RP based options, 1 costs 1500 gold every time you cast it and the final is finger of death to the wizard getting simulacrum, reverse gravity, teleport in addition to all the same options the warlock gets or they can always just up cast their 5th level hold monster to hit 3 targets.
Again warlocks are not a bad class, they have some solid options and they start out much stronger than most classes, but they just don't scale to be as powerful as other casters at higher levels outside a couple niche options they need to build into at those levels. Multi-classing out of warlock past level 11 I believe is very reasonable (unless you are playing pact of the blade). If you plan it right you can get a epic boon feat at level 19 and level 20 bringing your charisma up to 22 at level 20 which is much better than the warlocks normal capstone.
(edit: one fun multi-class option for a caster warlock is to take true strike instead of EB and then go Rogue to get sneak attack, expertise and my favorite subclass is thief utilizing magic wands, scrolls and other magic items the warlock will want as a bonus action along side the normal stuff the warlock does).
Edit 2: to note about a previous point multiple abilities allow forced movement without saves now in martial classes especially so the warlocks repelling blast isn't special any more, in addition it got nerfed to only work on large and smaller creatures, and sorcerers and wizards can match warlock cantrip damage and utility in tier 2 of play if they want and can actually exceed single target ranged damage now if they want as well. Which is why I said warlocks lost some of their "Role" in 2024 as these casters used to have difficulty keeping up with the damage and utility of EB with their cantrips and now they don't have that struggle anymore and can match or exceed EB+AB in the mid levels and EB+AB now falls far behind martial capabilities.
Edit 3: also last note, find familiar for warlocks still has the 10 gold component cost that is consumed on cast there isn't anything that bypasses that cost and since it is a ritual spell any class with it has always been able to cast it without a slot, just takes a little more time. That said, chain lock still gets way better familiars, I almost don't care about arcane eye when I already have an invisible scout that can also use hands and is intelligent and DOESN'T use my concentration.
I've said my peace on most of this discussion but I will say, you are I are fully agreed on the dismal state of the warlock choices for Level 7 Mystic Arcanum. Losing Mass Suggestion for level 6 is also stupid but at least there are several decent level 6 options. If they didn't want every warlock to have access to them, I think WOTC really missed the boat on not adding additional Arcanum options for 6-9th level spells by Patron like when they added wish to the Genie patron warlock list. Something like this makes sense to me:
The lack of reverse gravity on the warlock list given repelling blast hurts my soul. That would be some of the most hilariously fun gameplay out there people floating 100 feet in the air getting launched out of the area, people out of the area getting shoved in and flung 100 feet into the air.
There comes a point when I start looking to my DM and go. Hey monsters can cast spells at higher levels without using a spell slot can I just choose a lower level spell like Hold monster and make that my 7th level mystic arcanum? Or if I am playing a Fey make Summon fey my 8th level mystic arcanum? but barring that I really start considering multi-classing after 11 so that level 12 and level 8 of the other class both end up being epic boon feats to double up on that but that means only 2 feats basically the whole game.
Even better is multiclassing with paladin, bard, and even fighter, as you get extra attack, a lot of attack and damage roll modifiers, and amazing critfishing.
Pre-2024 I aways wanted to do that with major illusion. In 2024 they dropped the permanent version to 5th level, I suspect as a subtle buff for warlocks. I do like a lot of the spells they have options for at those levels but not as your choice until your next level up. And it really hurts on ones like demi plane, love the spell. But as my only 8th level choice, that hurts. I don't see myself casting it every day or even every week. Now if they made a warlock spell that was like a upgraded magnificent mansion where it opened a door to a safe zone of your patrons plane that might be cool.
Extra attack only works with the attack action, which you aren't using in the scenario I suggested because you didn't go pact of the blade and you want to use your charisma to attack. Those are great multi-classes for blade locks but my suggestion was for caster lock.