it seems that different sources within the PHB claim different things about how exactly you cast spells. IN some features, it is implied that your warlock quite literally draws power directly from their patron, that each spell and each invocation ever cast by an warlock requires the active cooperation of their patron, whereas others make it seem as if your patron is more of an tutor, who bestows oppon you several arcane secrets, that the actual potency of your spells is on your own skill, that it requires no intervention from your patron and that your methods are essentially the same as that of an wizard, only you learned your spells from an source more exotic than an mere scollarly tombe but from beings who ARE magic and understand the weave firsthand, that you simply know magic diffrently.
So what is it? is it some mix of the above, that it requires rare arcane knowledge long forgotten, but that some powers are gifts directly from your patron like your pact boon at third level, that some invocations quite literally invoke your patron for power, channeling magic directly from the fiendish or otherworldly patrons, whereas others are mere shortcuts in the weave, arcane secrets found deep within dark tombes even the most daring wizard dare not open, magical techniques that are efficient yet painful, or might have an toll on your sanity? is the warlock more arcane or divine, and why do you think so? please let me know...
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Yes, warlocks are arcane casters. The Player's Handbook says so explicitly. And yes, they work off of a combination of studying obscure magical lore, tutelage from their patron, and being directly bestowed power. Some features are more explicit about this than others, and the relationship between warlock and patron is deliberately a bit vague since not all patrons are the same and different groups might want to handle that differently as well.
Tldr version: warlocks use their study and relationship to *learn* spells of their own volition and ability, but do not require the patron to cast them at time of casting.
Long version: It's explicit that Warlocks are arcane casters in their own right. Pact magic is described thus: "Your arcane research and the magic bestowed on you by your patron have given you facility with spells."
The key part here is agency and ability. A patron, willingly or unwillingly, would never strike a bargain with a being who had neither skill nor desire to learn magic. There would be no intrinsic value in teaching the warlock. Consequently, the patron serves as the source of knowledge, like a teacher to a student, or as the PHB puts it, a Master and an Apprentice. But there's no point in having an apprentice who can't learn. If said power just wanted a lackey, they certainly could have one easily. An apprentice would have to have some natural ability or affinity with the weave, knowingly or not, and then be selected as a possible Warlock. They then use that ability, plus the teaching, to cast spells themselves.
The patron also uses that relationship to gain access to things they want or need, perhaps grooming a promising a Warlock for years to get what they want. But that would still require extraordinary innate ability to assist what is a de facto god to achieve its aims and purposes. Said immortal isn't going to spend its time (or its intermediaries or a part of it), casting spells for its Warlock. Any great teacher knows that the student needs to do it themselves, once class is out.
okay fellas but here is something interesting: the "creating a wizard" section in the players handbook mentions briefly how your wizard might have learned his or her first few spells from an "magical creature" and some devil and demon lore states that sometimes wizards might make deals with lower planar entities in exchange for some magical lore (including lichdom), does this mean that there exists some kind of "spectrum" between an wizard and an warlock, like i know this is an stupid idea, warlocks are warlocks, wizards are wizards, and making an pact with an supernatural patron is an pretty boolean, you ether are or you are not, but it feels like ther should be an "pseudo warlock" wizard archetype, an wizard who, while exploring and getting an greater understanding of the weave is making minor deals with arcane extraplanar entities, whose means of research is more than simple learning in librearies, a bit more supernatural
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I think this kind of goes back to a debate about whether or not your powers are permanent. Can your Patron tale away your powers, like it's a constant flow? Or has your Patron taught you long forgotten secrets and each level he teaches you another secret, or shows you how to do this long forgotten ability?
Personally I believe a lot of this boils down to taste. What would you prefer? How do you want it to be? Warlock is a class with a lot of built in RP, their powers and casting is a big part of that.
i know this is an stupid idea, warlocks are warlocks, wizards are wizards, and making an pact with an supernatural patron is an pretty boolean, you ether are or you are not, but it feels like ther should be an "pseudo warlock" wizard archetype, an wizard who, while exploring and getting an greater understanding of the weave is making minor deals with arcane extraplanar entities, whose means of research is more than simple learning in librearies, a bit more supernatural
Took me a moment to read this, but once I got it, I think you've actually got a good idea, but what you're going with is RP flavor. A warlock had a distinct patron and a relationship that fuels their magical understanding, the wizard may have colleagues and at high levels even dare to consult with planar powers, but no such individualized relationship.
So, if you wanted a wizard who worked for deep knowledge with others, especially on alternate planes, I'd choose a conjuration school wizard, as they do planar Travel well, and then perhaps feats like observant or Keen mind. Instead of being bound to a primary patron, you're now free to consult with anyone on a more business relationship nature. Of course, consulting with higher powers has its own risks...
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May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
making an pact with an supernatural patron is an pretty boolean, you ether are or you are not
Not really.
Quote from the PHB: The Great Old One might be unaware of your existence or entirely indifferent to you, but the secrets you have learned allow you to draw your magic from it.
Not much of a "pact" if you go with this kind of flavor. It's up to the players to decide how they want to play this. Some warlocks will be pretty much just sorcerers while others are basically charisma clerics.
I personally treat class distinctions primarily as out-of-universe things that represent individual styles. So yes, I would say there's a spectrum. A fighter and a barbarian are both just warriors who hit things with weapons. There's no in-universe class distinction. Wizards, bards and warlocks are just mages. Especially if you throw in multiclassing. While they may use individual styles and techniques, in the end they're all magic users.
oh, so you mean like the thing they mentioned in the sword coast adventurers guide "Most mages see little point in kindling rivalries with other types of arcane spellcasters-magic is magic, regardless of the means and for the most part, sorcerers, wizards, and warlocks respect each other as fellow practitioners of the Art, understanding the power it represents." magic is magic, how you came to use your power is irrelevant, all simply learn how to pluck strands of magic from the weave and shape it to fit their needs
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I'd go further. A wizard who transcribes spells into her spellbook and a warlock who transcribes rituals into his Book of Shadows might not even be aware that they are a different "class". They're doing the same thing.
In the same vein, a bard who only uses a Component Pouch as a spellcasting focus, is pretty much indistinguishable from a Sorcerer doing the same. Sure, the "bard" is better at inspiring people and the "sorcerer" may be faster at casting (Quicken Spell). But those are just different personal touches and techniques. Just as one sorcerer might be able to use Twin Spell but another Sorcerer can't. Doesn't mean they're necessarily viewed as different strains of spellcasters. In some worlds there might even be other distinctions made by the people. Like grouping them into healing white mages (e.g. life domain cleric, divine soul sorcerer, glamour bard) and damage dealing black mages (e.g. fiend warlock, evocation wizard, dragon sorcerer)
In-universe they're the same. Only the players use different methods to emulate their mage.
I may be new to DnD but I don't think there is a definitive answer. It all depends on the character you want to create, their relationship with their Patron, and whatever the DM thinks best fits the vision of the story they want to tell. You could totally have a Warlock whose power entirely comes from their Patron and if they displease their Patron they lose all of their magical ability. Or you could have a Patron who teaches the Warlock their spells so that the Warlock never loses access to those spells, but maybe they lose access to the subclass features of their Patron if they are no longer in a Pact with them.
But that is just my two cents.
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it seems that different sources within the PHB claim different things about how exactly you cast spells. IN some features, it is implied that your warlock quite literally draws power directly from their patron, that each spell and each invocation ever cast by an warlock requires the active cooperation of their patron, whereas others make it seem as if your patron is more of an tutor, who bestows oppon you several arcane secrets, that the actual potency of your spells is on your own skill, that it requires no intervention from your patron and that your methods are essentially the same as that of an wizard, only you learned your spells from an source more exotic than an mere scollarly tombe but from beings who ARE magic and understand the weave firsthand, that you simply know magic diffrently.
So what is it? is it some mix of the above, that it requires rare arcane knowledge long forgotten, but that some powers are gifts directly from your patron like your pact boon at third level, that some invocations quite literally invoke your patron for power, channeling magic directly from the fiendish or otherworldly patrons, whereas others are mere shortcuts in the weave, arcane secrets found deep within dark tombes even the most daring wizard dare not open, magical techniques that are efficient yet painful, or might have an toll on your sanity? is the warlock more arcane or divine, and why do you think so? please let me know...
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Yes, warlocks are arcane casters. The Player's Handbook says so explicitly. And yes, they work off of a combination of studying obscure magical lore, tutelage from their patron, and being directly bestowed power. Some features are more explicit about this than others, and the relationship between warlock and patron is deliberately a bit vague since not all patrons are the same and different groups might want to handle that differently as well.
Fun fact: warlocks were originally going to be INT casters and the only reason it changed was playtest feedback from players that were used to them using CHA in previous editions. Every other class has a justification for its spellcasting ability in its Spellcasting feature except warlocks ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Tldr version: warlocks use their study and relationship to *learn* spells of their own volition and ability, but do not require the patron to cast them at time of casting.
Long version: It's explicit that Warlocks are arcane casters in their own right. Pact magic is described thus: "Your arcane research and the magic bestowed on you by your patron have given you facility with spells."
The key part here is agency and ability. A patron, willingly or unwillingly, would never strike a bargain with a being who had neither skill nor desire to learn magic. There would be no intrinsic value in teaching the warlock. Consequently, the patron serves as the source of knowledge, like a teacher to a student, or as the PHB puts it, a Master and an Apprentice. But there's no point in having an apprentice who can't learn. If said power just wanted a lackey, they certainly could have one easily. An apprentice would have to have some natural ability or affinity with the weave, knowingly or not, and then be selected as a possible Warlock. They then use that ability, plus the teaching, to cast spells themselves.
The patron also uses that relationship to gain access to things they want or need, perhaps grooming a promising a Warlock for years to get what they want. But that would still require extraordinary innate ability to assist what is a de facto god to achieve its aims and purposes. Said immortal isn't going to spend its time (or its intermediaries or a part of it), casting spells for its Warlock. Any great teacher knows that the student needs to do it themselves, once class is out.
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
okay fellas but here is something interesting: the "creating a wizard" section in the players handbook mentions briefly how your wizard might have learned his or her first few spells from an "magical creature" and some devil and demon lore states that sometimes wizards might make deals with lower planar entities in exchange for some magical lore (including lichdom), does this mean that there exists some kind of "spectrum" between an wizard and an warlock, like i know this is an stupid idea, warlocks are warlocks, wizards are wizards, and making an pact with an supernatural patron is an pretty boolean, you ether are or you are not, but it feels like ther should be an "pseudo warlock" wizard archetype, an wizard who, while exploring and getting an greater understanding of the weave is making minor deals with arcane extraplanar entities, whose means of research is more than simple learning in librearies, a bit more supernatural
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I think this kind of goes back to a debate about whether or not your powers are permanent. Can your Patron tale away your powers, like it's a constant flow? Or has your Patron taught you long forgotten secrets and each level he teaches you another secret, or shows you how to do this long forgotten ability?
Personally I believe a lot of this boils down to taste. What would you prefer? How do you want it to be? Warlock is a class with a lot of built in RP, their powers and casting is a big part of that.
Took me a moment to read this, but once I got it, I think you've actually got a good idea, but what you're going with is RP flavor. A warlock had a distinct patron and a relationship that fuels their magical understanding, the wizard may have colleagues and at high levels even dare to consult with planar powers, but no such individualized relationship.
So, if you wanted a wizard who worked for deep knowledge with others, especially on alternate planes, I'd choose a conjuration school wizard, as they do planar Travel well, and then perhaps feats like observant or Keen mind. Instead of being bound to a primary patron, you're now free to consult with anyone on a more business relationship nature. Of course, consulting with higher powers has its own risks...
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
Not really.
Quote from the PHB: The Great Old One might be unaware of your existence or entirely indifferent to you, but the secrets you have learned allow you to draw your magic from it.
Not much of a "pact" if you go with this kind of flavor. It's up to the players to decide how they want to play this. Some warlocks will be pretty much just sorcerers while others are basically charisma clerics.
I personally treat class distinctions primarily as out-of-universe things that represent individual styles. So yes, I would say there's a spectrum. A fighter and a barbarian are both just warriors who hit things with weapons. There's no in-universe class distinction. Wizards, bards and warlocks are just mages. Especially if you throw in multiclassing. While they may use individual styles and techniques, in the end they're all magic users.
oh, so you mean like the thing they mentioned in the sword coast adventurers guide "Most mages see little point in kindling rivalries with other types of arcane spellcasters-magic is magic, regardless of the means and for the most part, sorcerers, wizards, and warlocks respect each other as fellow practitioners of the Art, understanding the power it represents." magic is magic, how you came to use your power is irrelevant, all simply learn how to pluck strands of magic from the weave and shape it to fit their needs
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I'd go further. A wizard who transcribes spells into her spellbook and a warlock who transcribes rituals into his Book of Shadows might not even be aware that they are a different "class". They're doing the same thing.
In the same vein, a bard who only uses a Component Pouch as a spellcasting focus, is pretty much indistinguishable from a Sorcerer doing the same. Sure, the "bard" is better at inspiring people and the "sorcerer" may be faster at casting (Quicken Spell). But those are just different personal touches and techniques. Just as one sorcerer might be able to use Twin Spell but another Sorcerer can't. Doesn't mean they're necessarily viewed as different strains of spellcasters. In some worlds there might even be other distinctions made by the people. Like grouping them into healing white mages (e.g. life domain cleric, divine soul sorcerer, glamour bard) and damage dealing black mages (e.g. fiend warlock, evocation wizard, dragon sorcerer)
In-universe they're the same. Only the players use different methods to emulate their mage.
I may be new to DnD but I don't think there is a definitive answer. It all depends on the character you want to create, their relationship with their Patron, and whatever the DM thinks best fits the vision of the story they want to tell. You could totally have a Warlock whose power entirely comes from their Patron and if they displease their Patron they lose all of their magical ability. Or you could have a Patron who teaches the Warlock their spells so that the Warlock never loses access to those spells, but maybe they lose access to the subclass features of their Patron if they are no longer in a Pact with them.
But that is just my two cents.