Not sure how Im supposed to start (or title) this one yet. I have a rather specific problem in my campaign and would really like some input from more experienced people. I've been playing my first campaign, I think we've been playing for a little less than a year now.
We started out with a few people and over the course of the campaign some went away, one joined us some time ago. But Ive been with them since the beginning. I started out as a Warlock (Pact of the Fiend), a complete newbie not only to 5e but to DnD in general. I am a gamer and have experience with RPGs (maybe a thing that I did in parts benefit from, in other aspects it kind of threw me off).
The way our party was contructed we started with a Ranger, a Monk, a Barbarian, a Bard, a Figher type (I think, not sure anymore, it was a special thing) and me as a Warlock. I wanted to go the Pact of the Chain initially, but wanted to keep my options open. Later on I became interested in Pact of the Blade, because I felt very underpowered in the beginning. Not being used to the Warlock class I did of course have limited knowledge and definitely different expecations going in. I ended up chooing Pact of the Tome after having read some benefits online, such as the good old Shillelagh, various benefits through Rituals and some other neat stuff people talked about online.
Our Barbarian, Bard and Fighter left, and later on a new player joined who is a Druid/Cleric. Our Ranger went into Rogue for multiclass and our Monk pretty much stayed the same. We had some NPCs in the party but of the player characters - until our Druid joined - I was pretty much the primary spell caster. Which you can imagine with my limited knowledge about the particualrs of the Warlock class and my background in gaming felt very frustrating wanting to play the Warlock like a Sorcerer or Wizard.
Long story short, we are Level 8/9 now. Our Ranger/Rogue got a lot of interesting magic items at this point (I don't have much of that yet). Like a bow that does force damage on top of the normal one, has a +1 on hit and doesnt need to be attuned, a ring of mind shielding (I think), special homebrew arrows that are +1 hit. Plus their Ranger/Rouge combo seems to give them more + on hit as well. And then there is sneak Atttack. The gist of it is they'd have to roll 3 or lower to even miss on most of the enemies we encounter currently. Plus the Damage with multiple attacks, hunters mark, goes up to the 70s per round I think.
(Fights are pretty long atm because we have a lot of characters involved, enemies and allies alike (though our DM is working on reducing our NPC party size to make the combat more fluid). Our Way of the Drunken something Monk has Flurry of Blows and evasion, our Druid/Cleric is just super tanky and can heal, has a lot of variety too in spells. But lets just ignore that for now)
I, as a Warlock, have been trying to look up and calculate ways to feel relevant or effective. And its been very frustrating. I only have 2 spell slots. Im working on maybe getting my DM to get me rod of the pact keeper or smth similar to make it easier on me with the spell slots. But even with that my spells go up to level 5 max, my damage potential is capped there. A lot of spells need concentration, which makes it really hard to balance what to use when, which concentration to drop with the few spell slots I have per short rest. We have regular short rests when we need them, Im very thankful for that. But we also have regular long rests since my fellow players mostly rely on the long rests, making the advantage my class has in short rest recovery almost not substantial. Aside from ASIs and the natural progression of Eldrich Blast I don't seem to have a lot of damage or hit-scaling in my cantrips, nor in my spells.
Narratively I love the Warlock. You can do so much with them thematically and with the patron (well in my case its a matron). Im Lizardfolk, though I play it not like traditional Lizardfolk, since my character is a very charisma-high character. My STR is pretty high mainly due to my DM originally recommending it to me for early levels. Now though with Shillelagh on my weapon I barely have any use for the 16 in STR I have currently. Complete Stats are: STR=16, DEX=14, CON=14, INT=10, WIS=12, CHA=18
Thats kind of the intro for all of this. Now to get to the main point. Sorry for the long post guys, bear with me. I have been trying to wrap my head around making an effective build that can keep up with my companions and is going in a general direction. I want versatility, but branching out too much would just mean I am mediocre in everything.
I had 2 main plans of progression.
A) Outside of character development, the goal has been to get myself a new profession (Alchemy for example) and make some money. One of my companions has a guild and we could do some business aside from dungeon crawling. With that money I would be able to hire a Calligrapher and let some of the spells I and our Druid knows made into Scrolls. We can also get some materials together. I would use Minions of Chaos mainly to summon Elementals and bind them into my service with Scroll of Planar binding to just improve my overall viability in all situations. Make myself into a kind of "Master of Elementals". I know its easier for Wizards and stuff but at this point Im commited to the character. The magic Items that summon Elementals and the Rings of Commanding Elementals would fit in there as well. The general idea is to always have at least one, maybe 2 elementals in my service and be able to Summon one more with concentration if I want to. Thematically some developments in the Warlock skill tree (Forcecage, Dominate Monster, Summon Demons/Devils) would also fit to that.
As for other items, anything that improves the number of spell slots I have or my major stats.
B) Now we get to character, and Im really lost here. I originally just wanted to go through with a full Warlock. But the more I looked at the last 3 levels of the class the less interesting or viable it really seemed. Now I know one should never just plan Level 1 - 20 out completely. Who knows, maybe we won't even get there. But the way our campaign went so far I would assume that we will arrive at max level at some point.
I also want to definitely prioritize the journey (so especially the experience in the levels that are about to come) over just looking at the end point and nothing more. I looked up various threads talking about Warlock multiclass combinations and one of things I kind of got was that I am already really far into the Warlock class and have possibly handicapped my multiclass potential severly in that regard. I had several ideas.
Warlock/Fighter - Would have been a simple concept. Go for the Extra Attack (lvl 5) and all the other nice class features. Try to get my DM to allow Shillelagh on a Greatsword or Swordspear or something similar, maximise my melee potential as much as I can with the Tome Pact (Blade would have been better here ik), use EB as far ranged option, have a couple of concentration spells that I can juggle (Hex, Darkness for advantage on attacks, Sickening Radiance, etc). Use the elementals for backup. Would probably need the War Caster feat here. Extra Attack would also mean potentially 2x4 Eldrich Blast attacks per round, which has decent damge potential.
Warlock/Bard - Thats the lore variant really. The advantages would be more proficiencies, the ability to use a couple more weapons, Bardic Inspiration, as well as a few neat low level spell slots to just improve the repertoire I have there. Some interesting 1st/2nd level spells. Would be decent for dipping 2 - 3 levels into the class. Adds some convenience and good options to support myself and allies (we already have a healer though so not much I need to do in that direction). Would add flavor as well, though Im not sure it would really fit my character that is more strong, burly. He IS a trickster, but kind of different from the classic, traditional version. Another advantage would be with a 17/3 split for example I could get all my Arcana
Warlock/Paladin - I heard those are really neat. But I have no idea how far I could or should go into the Paladin multiclass for this to work. I would love to keep as many Arcana as I can, and have features like "Hurl Through Hell" as well if I can. The advantages here are the armor and weapons I can use, the Smite with my 5th level Warlock Spell Slots and 3 Spell Slots (if I take at least 3 levels in Paladin) that I could use for Hex and other minor spells that are useful. Again, no idea though how far I should go into the Paladin vs. The Warlock in this case.
There are other combos like a Sorlock or some such. Metamagic can be decent here. But I have been told its not as great as it sounds and that most of the magic classes unlock their potential only in later levels so you would have to invest a lot of levels into it. The additions I make with multiclassing should warrant taking the levels around my current level (again Im like 200 XP away from level 9 right now).
Some of the main reasons Im unwilling to go for an even split and want to keep my Arcana is of course that this will be my only chance to get access to high level spells, even if the list is limited. Things like "Mass Suggestion", "Forcecage", "Dominate Monster" and "True Polymorph" (or "Foresight") are really strong and can help in a lot of things. Not to speak of all the funny and cool things you can do with those spells in later levels - such as turning yourself into a Dragon permanently for example.
In the end, what I really want is to have some thematic consistency. Some nice utility in spells (as far as the class allows) while still keeping up with my companions in damage potential and consistent output. And definitely also some consisteny in playstyle. I don't know if having half a spell and cantrip list for melee and the other half being far-ranged and concentration options (even if I take the "War Caster" feat) would really feel coherent and satisfying. There would need to be a reason, right? like, if I go melee I need a reason (such as being able to make more damage melee or having more value there in the current combat situation) and the calculations I made so far don't let me believe that I can really reach a lot of damage potential in the melee compared to what some of my spells at level 5 (or even Eldrich Blast as an at-will) can do. And yet all those options seem to be behind in damage comapred to the melee builds of my companions.
I just need some help in finding the right option for me and building my character class out properly, so I have fun during the journey but also potentially get to a satisfying end point. I would appreciate any ideas or feedback thrown in here so I can maybe figure this whole thing out a bit better. Maybe some of you guys have made an experience like this or know someone who was in such a situation and can give me some pointers. That would be awesome.
I think before any of us could answer, we would need to know the following:
1) What is the setting and are you always in combat, intrigue, etc.?
2) what's your role within the party?
3) most importantly, what do you want to do to make the character fun to play as you advance?
I'm in a similar position as you, level wise and in the new desire to multiclass. I've been playing D&D for a long time, but was new to 5e. Your character, and their role within the party, should determine how you want to multiclass.
Much success and fun to you!
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May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
It can be hard for me sometimes to figure this stuff out, especially in phases where I have less time due to studying for upcoming exams and such. So I sometimes start getting an idea or working on cool concepts just to loose track of where I wanted to go with it or to have some obstacle later on in the progression. Ill try answering the questions
1) Setting is a homewbrew, but its pretty standard 5e I think. Xanthar rules and such I think is allowed with approval of the GM. We're on one of the main continents and basically following a main story thread that pits us against various foes. Main enemies are - among cults and mercenaries - mostly undead and demons (since there is a necromancer bad guy in the story). We also recently went into a homebrew version of the underdark, fought some monstrosities. Our DM sometimes likes to take higher level monsters and pit weaker forms of them against us too.
We're not always in combat, we definitely have down time occasionally. Recently we were on a longer part of the main story thread so we were in combat back-to-back pretty often. It was a real dungeon crawl. But generally we have both downtime and combat and our DM dynamically adapts the pace depending on what we want/have to do outside of combat and how the story progesses. We also have a couple of social situations, so there is some room for out-of-combat utility. Its just, I feel DM is more lenient when it comes to that stuff, so generally everybody has kind of chance to have impact on a situation even if their talents don't lend themselves to it. On the one hand I really like that, it gives everyone the chance to do something and it makes failure less hard-failure in social situations. At the same time it also sometimes feels like it makes the time and effort one puts into developing skills, abilities and talents a bit less worth it if that makes any sense? Anyway, thats the gist
2) Kind of trying to figure that out myself, lol. Narratively I have a decent backstory with some possible tie-ins to the main plot and some side-stories. In the party Im definitely the Charisma-guy, but of our main players only one of them has decent INT stats, so investigation, knowledge-checks and such is a no-go for me. I have "find familiar" for scouting, but tbh our Druid has that covered better. They also have healing and tankieness covered. Our Monk is basically a melee OTP with low health. And like I said our Ranger/Rouge is... well exactly that, with everything that comes with it. They are kind of the "instigator" type of player if you know what I mean. Very involved, driving the plot a lot, etc My character is second on that probably, I had the second-most plot involvement. I dont really know what my "role" really is. Im trying to figure that out. Im not sure where i fit in. I know its barely possible to make a Warlock a full caster with the 3 spell slots (4 max) they have. Some of the "battlefield control" options are cool, but again Warlock is inferior to a Wizard or Druid in that regard. And trying to be good at one single thing doesnt seem to make sense for me if the class I have can't really reach decent potential in that regard.
3) As a new player I think Im kind of suffering from an overabundance of choices. I want to do a couple of things well. My goal is good damage in combat and some cool variety and flavor when it comes to lore. I tried to cover the latter with the elemental stuff I talked about. Im kind of a bit lost on the damage because when I read people talking about builds all these calcualtions really confuse the hell out of me, and Im normally a pretty smart guy. I just don't know enough about the subject matter yet to really have a feeling for how viable which damage values are and how which playstyle works (if for example its even possible to go for a melee and ranged mixed Warlock type and still have a consistent adaptable combat experience and decent damage).
Most basic advice - pick something that you will enjoy.
For optimization you will want a class with synergy with your stats, like Paladin. I would drop Shillelagh as a primary damage source. Eldritch blast at your level should do more damage than Shillelagh. If you want to do damage via melee than Greatsword, whatever will be ok with your high strength so I wouldn’t sweat the charisma vs. strength problem. For your party though I’d add Sorcerer and focus on abusing synergy between Sorcerer and Warlock. Look up guides on the specific tactics you can use
Lastly find a niche your party can’t fill and see if a new class will fill it. Sounds like caster, which would also lean towards Sorcerer.
Yeah I know that was my point. I heard Warlock has nice synergies with Martial Classes too, and Ive seen some stupid crazy combinations were people were just pulling off massive damage combining all kinds of ability in 1 action. Booming Blade with Hex and Smite and whatnot.
I have also seen people going for Paladin builds with like 200 damage per round or something. I dont want to become OP, but our Ranger/Rouge doing so well kind of makes me feel pretty useless, especially since I havent really had much chance to shine in social situations either. Our R/R loves to keep secrets, so Im not all in the loop on parts of the main plot (well I am, my character isn't).
I also heard bard might be an option, but I don't know how that would really work out.
The problem is for the Sorlock I feel Id have to make a new character. Which I don't really want to considering the backstory and development I have put into him. Having a Warlock Level 8 means I can only go up to Sorcerer Level 12.
Not quite sure how that would work out damage-wise, spell slots, etc And where do I make the break-off point?
I'm a big fan of pure Warlocks. In this thread I crafted my own build: it's a Hexblade Tomelock who doesn't wield a weapon, but maybe checking out the Invocations and spells list could help you on your path.
Anyway, which Invocations are you currently using? A Fiendlock with Pact of the Tome is, potentially, a great controller / blaster.
Agonizing Blast, Maddening Hex, Devils Sight (for darkness), Book of Ancient Secrets (with Identify and Find Familiar atm)
I want to add Minions of Chaos. Like I wrote above, I have outside of class improvemet planned to enlist some Elementals into my services. Would be cool to always have a few at hand. I like the idea of a controller. What Im really wrestling with in that regard is the concentration requirements. When do you use what, when do you drop concentration, are the spells decent enough to be useful and fill a role?
I already have spells like Sickening Radiance and Darkness in my arsenal (besides the usual Fireball and Scorching Ray). I want to add spells like Magic Circle and Banishment to my repertoire (for the elemental stuff mainly, but can be useful outside of it). Hypnotic Pattern and Counterspell sound great too, although Im not sure if the latter is really useful if I only can cast it 5th level or lower.
As for Arcana, I was thinking either Mass Suggestion or some of the new UA stuff, Forcecage, Dominate Monster (not sure on that one since most of the time the enemy would be making WIS saves with advantage) and True Polymorph (Foresight is cool but nothing in the list beats the versatility of True Polymorph I think).
I was thinking. Maybe Sorcerer 3 / Warlock 17 would be enough? Is Metamagic worth it? 3 Sorcery points, you can use your 4x lvl 1 and 2x lvl 2 spells to feed the SP pool and just use it to quicken Eldrich Blast and your 5th level spells. Keep one lvl 1 slot for HEX, so you can use it. Throw at least 1 or 2 5th level spells per encounter? Just an idea, not sure how that would work out though.
I don't like Darkness, because it hinders the party and takes a whole invocation to work. Shadow of Moil is more party friendly, doesn't take an Invocation, and it's arguably more powerful (and cooler).
Your spells aren't for regular fights, usually: their purpose is to ruin the big bad guy's day. Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Hex (conc) are enough for your regular fights, but for the big one you're going to use crowd control spells, damaging spells, or even better: both of those aspects mixed together. I'm talking about the Warlock signature spells, like Hunger of Hadar (conc.).
Sickening Radiance (conc.) is also very nice, and I'd consider adding Hypnotic Pattern (conc.), Banishment (conc.) and Synaptic Static, and maybe Enervation for some offensive self-healing. For your Mystic Arcanums, I'd consider Mental Prison (conc.), Forcecage / Finger of Death, Maddening Darkness (conc.), Foresight (quite OP!) / Psychic Scream / Imprisonment.
Most of them need concentration, but you really need one to do your job: pick which one according to the fight you're about to get into. Find the right tool for the job, don't just throw the whole toolbox and it while hoping for the best. Add to these you awesome level 14 ability, Hurl Through Hell, and you're set.
When it comes to Invocations, I love the at-will ones. Of course you need Agonizing Blast, and I'd take Repelling Blast to push your targets where they belong: right into your area-of-effect spell. Book of Ancient Secrets is useful for rituals, but then that's it; Minions of Chaos is ok for your theme, but mechanically it's not that great: it uses one of your spell slots, and you can use it once per long rest.
You could add Grasp of Hadar and Lance of Lethargy to the lot, plus Shroud of Shadow (Invisibility at will!) and Master of Myriad Forms for utility.
Now you have nice control of the battlefield and its denizens, plus your bound elementals (from scrolls or items) and your Minion of Chaos.
Darkness doesn't hinder the party mostly RAW or RAI iirc. Both parties have advantage and disadvantage on each attack except for you of course and thus, mostly just cancel out. It's also a decent equalizer. Might hurt the rogue a little tho.
Darkness doesn't hinder the party mostly RAW or RAI iirc. Both parties have advantage and disadvantage on each attack except for you of course and thus, mostly just cancel out. It's also a decent equalizer. Might hurt the rogue a little tho.
Your party members wouldn't be able to cast spells that rely on sight, and there's the whole "attacking empty space" thing.
This is because most DM's don't play Darkness areas or invisibility correctly. You hit with disadvantage IF it's not a total miss to begin with because you are effectively swinging at random. From the PHB-
"If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target's location correctly."
Most DM's forget this. At minimum they should be rolling stealth vs your passive perception or let you roll an active perception first to see if you can even target the right area with disadvantage.
Is Shdow of Moil (and Hunger of Hadar) even part of the normal Warlock Spell list? Plus the latter seems a bit underwhelming to me in damage. Also the whole "tentacles of shadow" thing hasnt been my theme so far and im not sure if it fits.
Here is the quick and short of my backstory: Was part of a Lizard tribe on another continent. Had arcane affinity and was discovered, thusly visited a school of magic. Was abducted by Necromancer Cultists that experimented on me and others. As a result I was scarred physically and somewhat mentally and lost my talent for the arcane. I managed to escape, wandering the lands. Eventually found my way to a trickster deity to which I devoted myself, inspired by their story yo which I saw parallels with my own. I became a Warlock to learn the arcane arts I lost through my patron. I learned many customs of the lands I visited and learned how to manipulate, persuade or encourage people with words and deeds alike.
So possible narrative developments for multiclass dips could be to find my way back to the warrior ways of my tribe (fighter), or for something significant to happen so I become bitter and jaded, swearing an oath of vengeance upon my enemies (paladin), or to find a way to deal with my experiences - becoming the chronicler of our parties adventures and their moral support (bard), or - last but not least - to rediscover my arcane talents and learn the art of metamagic (sorcerer).
In terms of raw numbers, like I said, Paladin seems an option, but having to invest 5 levels just for the Extra Attack and the Smite (which I can only use 3 times anyway at 5th level for similar single-action damage as EB+Hex) is steep. 2 attacks a round is pretty sweet though. That would require me to respec to a more melee focused build though AND to adopt War Caster or something like it.
Bard is cool due to Jack of all Trades and Expertise, would really improve the face element of my character. And id only have to dip 3 levels.
Sorcerer sounds decent the more I think about it. I wouldnt have to give up most of my Warlock benefits and high level spells (17/3) and still have metamagic and some 1st/2nd lvl spell slots I can use or turn into sorcery points. Quickening Spell is cool (though id have to drop / not use Hex if I use that), as is twinned Spell (what can I use this with? Im thinking mainly stuff like Flame Strike, Holding Spells at low level, Witchbolt, etc. not sure its worth it), Empowered Spell seems decent too. What do you guys think?
I hear you on the toolbox conc. spell thing, the only element that bothers me about it at times I really want to have decent options besides the conc. based stuff. Its also hard for me at times when I already have one conc. spell up that I used a valuable slot on to just drop it for one-time decent damage.
On Spells. Synaptic Static is a great idea, almost forgot that one. what exactly is Mental Prison again? I dont quite remember. I love the idea of Mass Suggestion, but I understand its usability depends a lot on your DM, especially in combat. 6th Arcanum is definitely something im not sure about. I love the idea of Foresight (advantage on everything!) but wonder if its not just an OP tool and nothing more. True Polymorph sounds more creative, though im not sure how often I could really use it. Then again, thats an end level decision.
Invocations. I also love the at will ones. Aside from 1 or 2 exceptions im allergic to anything that makes me spend another one of my valuable spell slots to even use it.
Ascendant Step (Levitate at will) is pretty cool. Unfortunately its a concentration spell so its really a no go imo.
BoAS I mainly took cause I can basically have a lot of out of combat utility. Summon a Mount, Identify stuff, detect magic, unseen servant, a familiar. Its the little things.
Agonizing Blast I will keep. Repelling Blast sounds good but I need to find a place for it. Grasp of Hadar I dont necessarily want to pull people closer.
I love Mask of Many Faces / Master of Myriad forms so Im definitely down for that.
Minions of Chaos I like mainly for the availability of the elemental - any of them - so I can trap it (magic circle), release conc. and then Planar Bind it with a scroll. I hope I can find a way to convince my DM to be able to cast 6th/7th level Planar Binding scrolls (because technically with Arcana I can cast spells of that level) so I have them in my service longer than 24 hours. Either way I could switch the Invocation down the line if its not useful or if I get Ring of Command Elemental.
Big Question on Invisibility: How do I profit from it aside from the out-of-combat stuff. Our Ranger/Rogue has Stealth and Invis covered for themselves and our DM lets us roll for Stealth anyway due to sound. If I get sneak attack on my spells Id consider it. If not its more of a meh choice for me.
I don't like Darkness, because it hinders the party and takes a whole invocation to work. Shadow of Moil is more party friendly, doesn't take an Invocation, and it's arguably more powerful (and cooler).
Your spells aren't for regular fights, usually: their purpose is to ruin the big bad guy's day. Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Hex (conc) are enough for your regular fights, but for the big one you're going to use crowd control spells, damaging spells, or even better: both of those aspects mixed together. I'm talking about the Warlock signature spells, like Hunger of Hadar (conc.).
Sickening Radiance (conc.) is also very nice, and I'd consider adding Hypnotic Pattern (conc.), Banishment (conc.) and Synaptic Static, and maybe Enervation for some offensive self-healing. For your Mystic Arcanums, I'd consider Mental Prison (conc.), Forcecage / Finger of Death, Maddening Darkness (conc.), Foresight (quite OP!) / Psychic Scream / Imprisonment.
Most of them need concentration, but you really need one to do your job: pick which one according to the fight you're about to get into. Find the right tool for the job, don't just throw the whole toolbox and it while hoping for the best. Add to these you awesome level 14 ability, Hurl Through Hell, and you're set.
When it comes to Invocations, I love the at-will ones. Of course you need Agonizing Blast, and I'd take Repelling Blast to push your targets where they belong: right into your area-of-effect spell. Book of Ancient Secrets is useful for rituals, but then that's it; Minions of Chaos is ok for your theme, but mechanically it's not that great: it uses one of your spell slots, and you can use it once per long rest.
You could add Grasp of Hadar and Lance of Lethargy to the lot, plus Shroud of Shadow (Invisibility at will!) and Master of Myriad Forms for utility.
Now you have nice control of the battlefield and its denizens, plus your bound elementals (from scrolls or items) and your Minion of Chaos.
Solid advice here. Shadow of Moil provides all the advantages to your character of Darkness without nerfing your allies. I would speak to everything mentioned above but will reiterate a few spells that have ended up being clutch for my Feylock. Now full disclosure since I am an Archfey Warlock, I am much more controller focused whereas you being Fiend can be more blasty. That being said-
Banishment- this spell is phenomenal. It hits a usually low stat for alot of big creatures giving you up to a minute to let the party take out supporting minions and prepare a trap for when the Big Bad reappears. It's also a nope button for extraplanar creatures which is super awesome as well. Fighting an evil Wizard who has summoned Fiendish allies? Nope. Crazed Druid leading an army of half insane elementals? Nope.
Hypnotic Pattern- Fantastic area control spell. It does rely on Charm so some creatures will be immune but this is very powerful still on alot of the things that want to kill you. Drop a 30 foot cube of charm and let your melee PC's surround and destroy things one round at a time.
Synaptic Static- Solid Pile of damage and a debuff on a save that is low for nearly all monsters and even most NPC's? Yes please. Now you as a Fiend lock get Fireball so you have to decide whether getting the debuff is worth loosing 2 levels worth of Fireball damage but unless you think a level 5 Fireball can outright kill whatever you are facing, it's almost always better to debuff them than get an extra 6-12 points of fire damage.
Warlocks are never going to do the damage of Sorcerors or Wizards from an arcane perspective. And I learned over the last couple of years that that's ok.
To compensate, I've become the point guard, as it were. Repelling blast to push people into the Paladin's melee range or to the raging Barbarian. I could see where Hunger of Hadar would help. I've used mind control (charm / phantasmal force, etc) and I've used illusion, teleportation and misdirection. But I'm a Feylock. Point being, it doesn't matter who hits for the most HP of damage, it matters most That you or someone else finishes off the creature. If you hit the bad guy for only 20 points of damage, but the Fighter and Wizard get clean shots because of your work, then great! The power you have is in versatility and being the mortar between the bricks. And that's valuable by itself.
Also, because I identify all the magic items we get, I put myself in the position of their distributor and I tend to keep the most appropriate ones for myself. ;)
So maybe you go Wizlock / Sorlock for additional spells. In my case, I'm looking DruLock, because it fits the character thematically.
Quick edit: I plan on going Archfey Tomelock 17 / Circle of Dreams Druid 3. It fits thematically.
I wish you the best of times playing and growing the character!
Agreed. If you're playing a warlock and you want to be the big damage dealer in your party you'll never be happy with the class. On the other hand if you want to do consistently decent damage, add in a lot of out of combat utility, add in carefully chosen in combat control magic, and also be able to drop a couple of blaster spells when they're the most strategic then you'll be happy as a warlock.
One thing that I think you missed, you don't have to drop a concentration spell when you cast a non-concentration spell. You can, and should, cast a concentration spell to control the battlefield and make your allies more effective and then use your cantrips liberally to knock out selected opponents. That's where a warlock shines, and if your DM limits the number of long rests that you get but let's you get in enough short rests, you'll be much more effective than you are now!
Well, Invisibility gives you advantage on your first attack roll, that would be Eldritch Blast. My character is more of a trickster - illusionist - controller, and I took Hexblade because of the exponential increase in survivability, and because I love the Lich King mechanic at level 6.
Some good advice there, too. My favorite character to play in 5E has become the Hexblade Warlock with the Pact of the Tome. My current one is a Warforged with Mask of Many Faces who always appears to be Human, and a one level dip into Shadow Sorcerer for more magic and darkvision. Don't forget Owl familiar for advantage on the first beam of every EB/AB attack.
Thanks for all the great advice guys. And I love playing the warlock narratively, really. The whole spiel around the patron, following their story requests, but also trying not to be a puppet and having my own leverage, is pretty neat. The way I see it (and I saw someone post something similar in another thread) the Warlock doesn't just "get" the spells like a Cleric praying to a god. They are the apprentice of their master and they learn those arcane secrets and techniques from their master. So taking away features (again, my opinion, I know the ruling depends on the lore/DM) should apply to passive abilities like the ones you get along the Pact paths, but not to the spells themselves. Im also currently, I would say, out of the 4 of us, the second most involved character. Also a reason why I don't just want to quit the character, cause he has so much potential.
Also funny you mention Owl familiar, that's what I had so far ^^. Thing is my DM likes to, after a few rounds, just make enemies shoot it down -.-
A few more things below.
I agree with you on the max damage output. First, its not everything. And I love the options I have for out-of-combat utility. The thing is thus far I feel since our Ranger/R had a lot of involvement in the story, and maybe also because of how our DM plays the campaign, it sometimes feels like I don't have that many chances to use my out-of-combat talent for anything more significant than getting good deals in stores. I don't want to discredit our DM here, has done a lot of great things and I also like the approach of giving every character a chance to have an impact on a situation, but that style coupled with a heavy reliance on Stealth or Investigation (maybe its just been lately) has given me few opportunities to really use my charisma or my charm spells OOC. Especially also since the factions we met so far have often been pretty hostile since they're evil shits. And we have just recently started to get into trading and guilds and had a bit money so maybe the things I can do OOC will increase, im not sure on that.
Anyway, to get back to combat, maybe its just the slow progression and late peak of spellcasting classes that give me some trouble. Its almso sometimes really hard to look into the future levels and get a clear vision of what will be effective and what will be more situational, and what peak damage actually looks like. I personally know that Im definitely not the top damage dealer, and thats fine. Id just love to have like 1 or 2 rounds where I can nova and then have some decent options for helping out my teammates and staying consistent. Since 2/3 of my companions are martial classes and one (R/R) has so many magical items and class abilities that just stack that damage and hit chance up it often feels like they are the driving force and the rest of us are just hanging back and being like "okay you go ahead do that". In a 1v1 against them I don't think anyone of us would have a chance either, esp. since they have a pet hellound (homebrew), so when it comes to party decisions they can basically do whatever they feel like. They will often sneak ahead, do something and even if someone is against it or wanted to do something on their own, just by the fact that our characters can't sneak and that the R/R has so many useful abilities they basically lead the way. Its kind of hard to find my own niche in there.
Sorlock really sounds like a nice idea. Spell Slots. Metamagic. Even at Lvl 3. So I can get all my Arcana. And I can builds a controller/blaster mix with an elemental companion. My character is rather big and his STR stat is high too, so its weird to play a character like this as a spellcaster. Maybe its just me having trouble with it idk. But it sounds like the best option and the best narrative tie in as well.
Should I go that path, you guys have any advice on when to dip into Sorcerer? Lvl 1 won't net me a lot, the advantages pretty much start at Lvl 2 (aside from extra spell slots), so its hard to determine when. I would recon not too late. But Im not sure if I want to do it right after Lvl 9 (where I get my Invocation), Lvl 10 (where I get Fiendish Resilience) or Lvl 11 (where the long awaited 3rd Lvl5 spell slot comes).
Is "Dominate Monster" any good for a 8th level spell? I can see myself having a lot of fun with it, but most enemies would make the save with advantage (since I assume we'd be in combat most of the time unless we manage to somehow sneak up to it), and it gets a saving throw whenever it takes damage.
I have a hard time choosing a spell for that Arcanum, the choices don't seem that great. I know there is maddening Darkness, but its 8d8 and no other effects, thats really not that much if you think about it. Plus it requires concentration too.
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Hey Friends and fellow Adventurers!
Not sure how Im supposed to start (or title) this one yet. I have a rather specific problem in my campaign and would really like some input from more experienced people. I've been playing my first campaign, I think we've been playing for a little less than a year now.
We started out with a few people and over the course of the campaign some went away, one joined us some time ago. But Ive been with them since the beginning. I started out as a Warlock (Pact of the Fiend), a complete newbie not only to 5e but to DnD in general. I am a gamer and have experience with RPGs (maybe a thing that I did in parts benefit from, in other aspects it kind of threw me off).
The way our party was contructed we started with a Ranger, a Monk, a Barbarian, a Bard, a Figher type (I think, not sure anymore, it was a special thing) and me as a Warlock. I wanted to go the Pact of the Chain initially, but wanted to keep my options open. Later on I became interested in Pact of the Blade, because I felt very underpowered in the beginning. Not being used to the Warlock class I did of course have limited knowledge and definitely different expecations going in. I ended up chooing Pact of the Tome after having read some benefits online, such as the good old Shillelagh, various benefits through Rituals and some other neat stuff people talked about online.
Our Barbarian, Bard and Fighter left, and later on a new player joined who is a Druid/Cleric. Our Ranger went into Rogue for multiclass and our Monk pretty much stayed the same. We had some NPCs in the party but of the player characters - until our Druid joined - I was pretty much the primary spell caster. Which you can imagine with my limited knowledge about the particualrs of the Warlock class and my background in gaming felt very frustrating wanting to play the Warlock like a Sorcerer or Wizard.
Long story short, we are Level 8/9 now. Our Ranger/Rogue got a lot of interesting magic items at this point (I don't have much of that yet). Like a bow that does force damage on top of the normal one, has a +1 on hit and doesnt need to be attuned, a ring of mind shielding (I think), special homebrew arrows that are +1 hit. Plus their Ranger/Rouge combo seems to give them more + on hit as well. And then there is sneak Atttack. The gist of it is they'd have to roll 3 or lower to even miss on most of the enemies we encounter currently. Plus the Damage with multiple attacks, hunters mark, goes up to the 70s per round I think.
(Fights are pretty long atm because we have a lot of characters involved, enemies and allies alike (though our DM is working on reducing our NPC party size to make the combat more fluid). Our Way of the Drunken something Monk has Flurry of Blows and evasion, our Druid/Cleric is just super tanky and can heal, has a lot of variety too in spells. But lets just ignore that for now)
I, as a Warlock, have been trying to look up and calculate ways to feel relevant or effective. And its been very frustrating. I only have 2 spell slots. Im working on maybe getting my DM to get me rod of the pact keeper or smth similar to make it easier on me with the spell slots. But even with that my spells go up to level 5 max, my damage potential is capped there. A lot of spells need concentration, which makes it really hard to balance what to use when, which concentration to drop with the few spell slots I have per short rest. We have regular short rests when we need them, Im very thankful for that. But we also have regular long rests since my fellow players mostly rely on the long rests, making the advantage my class has in short rest recovery almost not substantial. Aside from ASIs and the natural progression of Eldrich Blast I don't seem to have a lot of damage or hit-scaling in my cantrips, nor in my spells.
Narratively I love the Warlock. You can do so much with them thematically and with the patron (well in my case its a matron). Im Lizardfolk, though I play it not like traditional Lizardfolk, since my character is a very charisma-high character. My STR is pretty high mainly due to my DM originally recommending it to me for early levels. Now though with Shillelagh on my weapon I barely have any use for the 16 in STR I have currently. Complete Stats are: STR=16, DEX=14, CON=14, INT=10, WIS=12, CHA=18
Thats kind of the intro for all of this. Now to get to the main point. Sorry for the long post guys, bear with me.
I have been trying to wrap my head around making an effective build that can keep up with my companions and is going in a general direction. I want versatility, but branching out too much would just mean I am mediocre in everything.
I had 2 main plans of progression.
A) Outside of character development, the goal has been to get myself a new profession (Alchemy for example) and make some money. One of my companions has a guild and we could do some business aside from dungeon crawling. With that money I would be able to hire a Calligrapher and let some of the spells I and our Druid knows made into Scrolls. We can also get some materials together. I would use Minions of Chaos mainly to summon Elementals and bind them into my service with Scroll of Planar binding to just improve my overall viability in all situations. Make myself into a kind of "Master of Elementals". I know its easier for Wizards and stuff but at this point Im commited to the character. The magic Items that summon Elementals and the Rings of Commanding Elementals would fit in there as well. The general idea is to always have at least one, maybe 2 elementals in my service and be able to Summon one more with concentration if I want to. Thematically some developments in the Warlock skill tree (Forcecage, Dominate Monster, Summon Demons/Devils) would also fit to that.
As for other items, anything that improves the number of spell slots I have or my major stats.
B) Now we get to character, and Im really lost here. I originally just wanted to go through with a full Warlock. But the more I looked at the last 3 levels of the class the less interesting or viable it really seemed. Now I know one should never just plan Level 1 - 20 out completely. Who knows, maybe we won't even get there. But the way our campaign went so far I would assume that we will arrive at max level at some point.
I also want to definitely prioritize the journey (so especially the experience in the levels that are about to come) over just looking at the end point and nothing more. I looked up various threads talking about Warlock multiclass combinations and one of things I kind of got was that I am already really far into the Warlock class and have possibly handicapped my multiclass potential severly in that regard. I had several ideas.
Warlock/Fighter - Would have been a simple concept. Go for the Extra Attack (lvl 5) and all the other nice class features. Try to get my DM to allow Shillelagh on a Greatsword or Swordspear or something similar, maximise my melee potential as much as I can with the Tome Pact (Blade would have been better here ik), use EB as far ranged option, have a couple of concentration spells that I can juggle (Hex, Darkness for advantage on attacks, Sickening Radiance, etc). Use the elementals for backup. Would probably need the War Caster feat here. Extra Attack would also mean potentially 2x4 Eldrich Blast attacks per round, which has decent damge potential.
Warlock/Bard - Thats the lore variant really. The advantages would be more proficiencies, the ability to use a couple more weapons, Bardic Inspiration, as well as a few neat low level spell slots to just improve the repertoire I have there. Some interesting 1st/2nd level spells. Would be decent for dipping 2 - 3 levels into the class. Adds some convenience and good options to support myself and allies (we already have a healer though so not much I need to do in that direction). Would add flavor as well, though Im not sure it would really fit my character that is more strong, burly. He IS a trickster, but kind of different from the classic, traditional version. Another advantage would be with a 17/3 split for example I could get all my Arcana
Warlock/Paladin - I heard those are really neat. But I have no idea how far I could or should go into the Paladin multiclass for this to work. I would love to keep as many Arcana as I can, and have features like "Hurl Through Hell" as well if I can. The advantages here are the armor and weapons I can use, the Smite with my 5th level Warlock Spell Slots and 3 Spell Slots (if I take at least 3 levels in Paladin) that I could use for Hex and other minor spells that are useful. Again, no idea though how far I should go into the Paladin vs. The Warlock in this case.
There are other combos like a Sorlock or some such. Metamagic can be decent here. But I have been told its not as great as it sounds and that most of the magic classes unlock their potential only in later levels so you would have to invest a lot of levels into it. The additions I make with multiclassing should warrant taking the levels around my current level (again Im like 200 XP away from level 9 right now).
Some of the main reasons Im unwilling to go for an even split and want to keep my Arcana is of course that this will be my only chance to get access to high level spells, even if the list is limited. Things like "Mass Suggestion", "Forcecage", "Dominate Monster" and "True Polymorph" (or "Foresight") are really strong and can help in a lot of things. Not to speak of all the funny and cool things you can do with those spells in later levels - such as turning yourself into a Dragon permanently for example.
In the end, what I really want is to have some thematic consistency. Some nice utility in spells (as far as the class allows) while still keeping up with my companions in damage potential and consistent output. And definitely also some consisteny in playstyle. I don't know if having half a spell and cantrip list for melee and the other half being far-ranged and concentration options (even if I take the "War Caster" feat) would really feel coherent and satisfying. There would need to be a reason, right? like, if I go melee I need a reason (such as being able to make more damage melee or having more value there in the current combat situation) and the calculations I made so far don't let me believe that I can really reach a lot of damage potential in the melee compared to what some of my spells at level 5 (or even Eldrich Blast as an at-will) can do. And yet all those options seem to be behind in damage comapred to the melee builds of my companions.
I just need some help in finding the right option for me and building my character class out properly, so I have fun during the journey but also potentially get to a satisfying end point.
I would appreciate any ideas or feedback thrown in here so I can maybe figure this whole thing out a bit better.
Maybe some of you guys have made an experience like this or know someone who was in such a situation and can give me some pointers. That would be awesome.
I think before any of us could answer, we would need to know the following:
1) What is the setting and are you always in combat, intrigue, etc.?
2) what's your role within the party?
3) most importantly, what do you want to do to make the character fun to play as you advance?
I'm in a similar position as you, level wise and in the new desire to multiclass. I've been playing D&D for a long time, but was new to 5e. Your character, and their role within the party, should determine how you want to multiclass.
Much success and fun to you!
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
Fist of all, thanks for the quick answer.
It can be hard for me sometimes to figure this stuff out, especially in phases where I have less time due to studying for upcoming exams and such.
So I sometimes start getting an idea or working on cool concepts just to loose track of where I wanted to go with it or to have some obstacle later on in the progression.
Ill try answering the questions
1) Setting is a homewbrew, but its pretty standard 5e I think. Xanthar rules and such I think is allowed with approval of the GM. We're on one of the main continents and basically following a main story thread that pits us against various foes. Main enemies are - among cults and mercenaries - mostly undead and demons (since there is a necromancer bad guy in the story). We also recently went into a homebrew version of the underdark, fought some monstrosities. Our DM sometimes likes to take higher level monsters and pit weaker forms of them against us too.
We're not always in combat, we definitely have down time occasionally. Recently we were on a longer part of the main story thread so we were in combat back-to-back pretty often. It was a real dungeon crawl. But generally we have both downtime and combat and our DM dynamically adapts the pace depending on what we want/have to do outside of combat and how the story progesses. We also have a couple of social situations, so there is some room for out-of-combat utility. Its just, I feel DM is more lenient when it comes to that stuff, so generally everybody has kind of chance to have impact on a situation even if their talents don't lend themselves to it. On the one hand I really like that, it gives everyone the chance to do something and it makes failure less hard-failure in social situations. At the same time it also sometimes feels like it makes the time and effort one puts into developing skills, abilities and talents a bit less worth it if that makes any sense? Anyway, thats the gist
2) Kind of trying to figure that out myself, lol. Narratively I have a decent backstory with some possible tie-ins to the main plot and some side-stories. In the party Im definitely the Charisma-guy, but of our main players only one of them has decent INT stats, so investigation, knowledge-checks and such is a no-go for me. I have "find familiar" for scouting, but tbh our Druid has that covered better. They also have healing and tankieness covered. Our Monk is basically a melee OTP with low health. And like I said our Ranger/Rouge is... well exactly that, with everything that comes with it. They are kind of the "instigator" type of player if you know what I mean. Very involved, driving the plot a lot, etc My character is second on that probably, I had the second-most plot involvement. I dont really know what my "role" really is. Im trying to figure that out. Im not sure where i fit in. I know its barely possible to make a Warlock a full caster with the 3 spell slots (4 max) they have. Some of the "battlefield control" options are cool, but again Warlock is inferior to a Wizard or Druid in that regard. And trying to be good at one single thing doesnt seem to make sense for me if the class I have can't really reach decent potential in that regard.
3) As a new player I think Im kind of suffering from an overabundance of choices. I want to do a couple of things well. My goal is good damage in combat and some cool variety and flavor when it comes to lore. I tried to cover the latter with the elemental stuff I talked about. Im kind of a bit lost on the damage because when I read people talking about builds all these calcualtions really confuse the hell out of me, and Im normally a pretty smart guy. I just don't know enough about the subject matter yet to really have a feeling for how viable which damage values are and how which playstyle works (if for example its even possible to go for a melee and ranged mixed Warlock type and still have a consistent adaptable combat experience and decent damage).
Most basic advice - pick something that you will enjoy.
For optimization you will want a class with synergy with your stats, like Paladin. I would drop Shillelagh as a primary damage source. Eldritch blast at your level should do more damage than Shillelagh. If you want to do damage via melee than Greatsword, whatever will be ok with your high strength so I wouldn’t sweat the charisma vs. strength problem. For your party though I’d add Sorcerer and focus on abusing synergy between Sorcerer and Warlock. Look up guides on the specific tactics you can use
Lastly find a niche your party can’t fill and see if a new class will fill it. Sounds like caster, which would also lean towards Sorcerer.
Yeah I know that was my point. I heard Warlock has nice synergies with Martial Classes too, and Ive seen some stupid crazy combinations were people were just pulling off massive damage combining all kinds of ability in 1 action. Booming Blade with Hex and Smite and whatnot.
I have also seen people going for Paladin builds with like 200 damage per round or something.
I dont want to become OP, but our Ranger/Rouge doing so well kind of makes me feel pretty useless, especially since I havent really had much chance to shine in social situations either. Our R/R loves to keep secrets, so Im not all in the loop on parts of the main plot (well I am, my character isn't).
I also heard bard might be an option, but I don't know how that would really work out.
The problem is for the Sorlock I feel Id have to make a new character. Which I don't really want to considering the backstory and development I have put into him. Having a Warlock Level 8 means I can only go up to Sorcerer Level 12.
Not quite sure how that would work out damage-wise, spell slots, etc
And where do I make the break-off point?
I'm a big fan of pure Warlocks. In this thread I crafted my own build: it's a Hexblade Tomelock who doesn't wield a weapon, but maybe checking out the Invocations and spells list could help you on your path.
Anyway, which Invocations are you currently using? A Fiendlock with Pact of the Tome is, potentially, a great controller / blaster.
Agonizing Blast, Maddening Hex, Devils Sight (for darkness), Book of Ancient Secrets (with Identify and Find Familiar atm)
I want to add Minions of Chaos.
Like I wrote above, I have outside of class improvemet planned to enlist some Elementals into my services. Would be cool to always have a few at hand.
I like the idea of a controller. What Im really wrestling with in that regard is the concentration requirements. When do you use what, when do you drop concentration, are the spells decent enough to be useful and fill a role?
I already have spells like Sickening Radiance and Darkness in my arsenal (besides the usual Fireball and Scorching Ray).
I want to add spells like Magic Circle and Banishment to my repertoire (for the elemental stuff mainly, but can be useful outside of it).
Hypnotic Pattern and Counterspell sound great too, although Im not sure if the latter is really useful if I only can cast it 5th level or lower.
As for Arcana, I was thinking either Mass Suggestion or some of the new UA stuff, Forcecage, Dominate Monster (not sure on that one since most of the time the enemy would be making WIS saves with advantage) and True Polymorph (Foresight is cool but nothing in the list beats the versatility of True Polymorph I think).
I was thinking. Maybe Sorcerer 3 / Warlock 17 would be enough? Is Metamagic worth it? 3 Sorcery points, you can use your 4x lvl 1 and 2x lvl 2 spells to feed the SP pool and just use it to quicken Eldrich Blast and your 5th level spells. Keep one lvl 1 slot for HEX, so you can use it. Throw at least 1 or 2 5th level spells per encounter? Just an idea, not sure how that would work out though.
I don't like Darkness, because it hinders the party and takes a whole invocation to work. Shadow of Moil is more party friendly, doesn't take an Invocation, and it's arguably more powerful (and cooler).
Your spells aren't for regular fights, usually: their purpose is to ruin the big bad guy's day. Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Hex (conc) are enough for your regular fights, but for the big one you're going to use crowd control spells, damaging spells, or even better: both of those aspects mixed together. I'm talking about the Warlock signature spells, like Hunger of Hadar (conc.).
Sickening Radiance (conc.) is also very nice, and I'd consider adding Hypnotic Pattern (conc.), Banishment (conc.) and Synaptic Static, and maybe Enervation for some offensive self-healing. For your Mystic Arcanums, I'd consider Mental Prison (conc.), Forcecage / Finger of Death, Maddening Darkness (conc.), Foresight (quite OP!) / Psychic Scream / Imprisonment.
Most of them need concentration, but you really need one to do your job: pick which one according to the fight you're about to get into. Find the right tool for the job, don't just throw the whole toolbox and it while hoping for the best. Add to these you awesome level 14 ability, Hurl Through Hell, and you're set.
When it comes to Invocations, I love the at-will ones. Of course you need Agonizing Blast, and I'd take Repelling Blast to push your targets where they belong: right into your area-of-effect spell. Book of Ancient Secrets is useful for rituals, but then that's it; Minions of Chaos is ok for your theme, but mechanically it's not that great: it uses one of your spell slots, and you can use it once per long rest.
You could add Grasp of Hadar and Lance of Lethargy to the lot, plus Shroud of Shadow (Invisibility at will!) and Master of Myriad Forms for utility.
Now you have nice control of the battlefield and its denizens, plus your bound elementals (from scrolls or items) and your Minion of Chaos.
Darkness doesn't hinder the party mostly RAW or RAI iirc. Both parties have advantage and disadvantage on each attack except for you of course and thus, mostly just cancel out. It's also a decent equalizer. Might hurt the rogue a little tho.
Your party members wouldn't be able to cast spells that rely on sight, and there's the whole "attacking empty space" thing.
This is because most DM's don't play Darkness areas or invisibility correctly. You hit with disadvantage IF it's not a total miss to begin with because you are effectively swinging at random. From the PHB-
"If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target's location correctly."
Most DM's forget this. At minimum they should be rolling stealth vs your passive perception or let you roll an active perception first to see if you can even target the right area with disadvantage.
Is Shdow of Moil (and Hunger of Hadar) even part of the normal Warlock Spell list? Plus the latter seems a bit underwhelming to me in damage. Also the whole "tentacles of shadow" thing hasnt been my theme so far and im not sure if it fits.
Here is the quick and short of my backstory: Was part of a Lizard tribe on another continent. Had arcane affinity and was discovered, thusly visited a school of magic. Was abducted by Necromancer Cultists that experimented on me and others. As a result I was scarred physically and somewhat mentally and lost my talent for the arcane. I managed to escape, wandering the lands. Eventually found my way to a trickster deity to which I devoted myself, inspired by their story yo which I saw parallels with my own. I became a Warlock to learn the arcane arts I lost through my patron. I learned many customs of the lands I visited and learned how to manipulate, persuade or encourage people with words and deeds alike.
So possible narrative developments for multiclass dips could be to find my way back to the warrior ways of my tribe (fighter), or for something significant to happen so I become bitter and jaded, swearing an oath of vengeance upon my enemies (paladin), or to find a way to deal with my experiences - becoming the chronicler of our parties adventures and their moral support (bard), or - last but not least - to rediscover my arcane talents and learn the art of metamagic (sorcerer).
In terms of raw numbers, like I said, Paladin seems an option, but having to invest 5 levels just for the Extra Attack and the Smite (which I can only use 3 times anyway at 5th level for similar single-action damage as EB+Hex) is steep. 2 attacks a round is pretty sweet though. That would require me to respec to a more melee focused build though AND to adopt War Caster or something like it.
Bard is cool due to Jack of all Trades and Expertise, would really improve the face element of my character. And id only have to dip 3 levels.
Sorcerer sounds decent the more I think about it. I wouldnt have to give up most of my Warlock benefits and high level spells (17/3) and still have metamagic and some 1st/2nd lvl spell slots I can use or turn into sorcery points. Quickening Spell is cool (though id have to drop / not use Hex if I use that), as is twinned Spell (what can I use this with? Im thinking mainly stuff like Flame Strike, Holding Spells at low level, Witchbolt, etc. not sure its worth it), Empowered Spell seems decent too. What do you guys think?
I hear you on the toolbox conc. spell thing, the only element that bothers me about it at times I really want to have decent options besides the conc. based stuff. Its also hard for me at times when I already have one conc. spell up that I used a valuable slot on to just drop it for one-time decent damage.
On Spells. Synaptic Static is a great idea, almost forgot that one. what exactly is Mental Prison again? I dont quite remember. I love the idea of Mass Suggestion, but I understand its usability depends a lot on your DM, especially in combat. 6th Arcanum is definitely something im not sure about. I love the idea of Foresight (advantage on everything!) but wonder if its not just an OP tool and nothing more. True Polymorph sounds more creative, though im not sure how often I could really use it. Then again, thats an end level decision.
Invocations. I also love the at will ones. Aside from 1 or 2 exceptions im allergic to anything that makes me spend another one of my valuable spell slots to even use it.
Ascendant Step (Levitate at will) is pretty cool. Unfortunately its a concentration spell so its really a no go imo.
BoAS I mainly took cause I can basically have a lot of out of combat utility. Summon a Mount, Identify stuff, detect magic, unseen servant, a familiar. Its the little things.
Agonizing Blast I will keep. Repelling Blast sounds good but I need to find a place for it. Grasp of Hadar I dont necessarily want to pull people closer.
I love Mask of Many Faces / Master of Myriad forms so Im definitely down for that.
Minions of Chaos I like mainly for the availability of the elemental - any of them - so I can trap it (magic circle), release conc. and then Planar Bind it with a scroll. I hope I can find a way to convince my DM to be able to cast 6th/7th level Planar Binding scrolls (because technically with Arcana I can cast spells of that level) so I have them in my service longer than 24 hours. Either way I could switch the Invocation down the line if its not useful or if I get Ring of Command Elemental.
Big Question on Invisibility: How do I profit from it aside from the out-of-combat stuff. Our Ranger/Rogue has Stealth and Invis covered for themselves and our DM lets us roll for Stealth anyway due to sound. If I get sneak attack on my spells Id consider it. If not its more of a meh choice for me.
Solid advice here. Shadow of Moil provides all the advantages to your character of Darkness without nerfing your allies. I would speak to everything mentioned above but will reiterate a few spells that have ended up being clutch for my Feylock. Now full disclosure since I am an Archfey Warlock, I am much more controller focused whereas you being Fiend can be more blasty. That being said-
Banishment- this spell is phenomenal. It hits a usually low stat for alot of big creatures giving you up to a minute to let the party take out supporting minions and prepare a trap for when the Big Bad reappears. It's also a nope button for extraplanar creatures which is super awesome as well. Fighting an evil Wizard who has summoned Fiendish allies? Nope. Crazed Druid leading an army of half insane elementals? Nope.
Hypnotic Pattern- Fantastic area control spell. It does rely on Charm so some creatures will be immune but this is very powerful still on alot of the things that want to kill you. Drop a 30 foot cube of charm and let your melee PC's surround and destroy things one round at a time.
Synaptic Static- Solid Pile of damage and a debuff on a save that is low for nearly all monsters and even most NPC's? Yes please. Now you as a Fiend lock get Fireball so you have to decide whether getting the debuff is worth loosing 2 levels worth of Fireball damage but unless you think a level 5 Fireball can outright kill whatever you are facing, it's almost always better to debuff them than get an extra 6-12 points of fire damage.
Warlocks are never going to do the damage of Sorcerors or Wizards from an arcane perspective. And I learned over the last couple of years that that's ok.
To compensate, I've become the point guard, as it were. Repelling blast to push people into the Paladin's melee range or to the raging Barbarian. I could see where Hunger of Hadar would help. I've used mind control (charm / phantasmal force, etc) and I've used illusion, teleportation and misdirection. But I'm a Feylock. Point being, it doesn't matter who hits for the most HP of damage, it matters most That you or someone else finishes off the creature. If you hit the bad guy for only 20 points of damage, but the Fighter and Wizard get clean shots because of your work, then great! The power you have is in versatility and being the mortar between the bricks. And that's valuable by itself.
Also, because I identify all the magic items we get, I put myself in the position of their distributor and I tend to keep the most appropriate ones for myself. ;)
So maybe you go Wizlock / Sorlock for additional spells. In my case, I'm looking DruLock, because it fits the character thematically.
Quick edit: I plan on going Archfey Tomelock 17 / Circle of Dreams Druid 3. It fits thematically.
I wish you the best of times playing and growing the character!
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
Agreed. If you're playing a warlock and you want to be the big damage dealer in your party you'll never be happy with the class. On the other hand if you want to do consistently decent damage, add in a lot of out of combat utility, add in carefully chosen in combat control magic, and also be able to drop a couple of blaster spells when they're the most strategic then you'll be happy as a warlock.
One thing that I think you missed, you don't have to drop a concentration spell when you cast a non-concentration spell. You can, and should, cast a concentration spell to control the battlefield and make your allies more effective and then use your cantrips liberally to knock out selected opponents. That's where a warlock shines, and if your DM limits the number of long rests that you get but let's you get in enough short rests, you'll be much more effective than you are now!
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There is a lot of golden advice for Warlocks in this thread, and it needs to be made sticky.
It's refreshing to see that others share my opinion of and love for the Warlock class.
Well, Invisibility gives you advantage on your first attack roll, that would be Eldritch Blast. My character is more of a trickster - illusionist - controller, and I took Hexblade because of the exponential increase in survivability, and because I love the Lich King mechanic at level 6.
I guess you might want to check this thread I started weeks ago, that ended up being a potential guide. :)
Some good advice there, too. My favorite character to play in 5E has become the Hexblade Warlock with the Pact of the Tome. My current one is a Warforged with Mask of Many Faces who always appears to be Human, and a one level dip into Shadow Sorcerer for more magic and darkvision. Don't forget Owl familiar for advantage on the first beam of every EB/AB attack.
Thanks for all the great advice guys.
And I love playing the warlock narratively, really.
The whole spiel around the patron, following their story requests, but also trying not to be a puppet and having my own leverage, is pretty neat.
The way I see it (and I saw someone post something similar in another thread) the Warlock doesn't just "get" the spells like a Cleric praying to a god. They are the apprentice of their master and they learn those arcane secrets and techniques from their master. So taking away features (again, my opinion, I know the ruling depends on the lore/DM) should apply to passive abilities like the ones you get along the Pact paths, but not to the spells themselves.
Im also currently, I would say, out of the 4 of us, the second most involved character. Also a reason why I don't just want to quit the character, cause he has so much potential.
Also funny you mention Owl familiar, that's what I had so far ^^. Thing is my DM likes to, after a few rounds, just make enemies shoot it down -.-
A few more things below.
I agree with you on the max damage output. First, its not everything. And I love the options I have for out-of-combat utility. The thing is thus far I feel since our Ranger/R had a lot of involvement in the story, and maybe also because of how our DM plays the campaign, it sometimes feels like I don't have that many chances to use my out-of-combat talent for anything more significant than getting good deals in stores. I don't want to discredit our DM here, has done a lot of great things and I also like the approach of giving every character a chance to have an impact on a situation, but that style coupled with a heavy reliance on Stealth or Investigation (maybe its just been lately) has given me few opportunities to really use my charisma or my charm spells OOC. Especially also since the factions we met so far have often been pretty hostile since they're evil shits. And we have just recently started to get into trading and guilds and had a bit money so maybe the things I can do OOC will increase, im not sure on that.
Anyway, to get back to combat, maybe its just the slow progression and late peak of spellcasting classes that give me some trouble. Its almso sometimes really hard to look into the future levels and get a clear vision of what will be effective and what will be more situational, and what peak damage actually looks like. I personally know that Im definitely not the top damage dealer, and thats fine. Id just love to have like 1 or 2 rounds where I can nova and then have some decent options for helping out my teammates and staying consistent. Since 2/3 of my companions are martial classes and one (R/R) has so many magical items and class abilities that just stack that damage and hit chance up it often feels like they are the driving force and the rest of us are just hanging back and being like "okay you go ahead do that". In a 1v1 against them I don't think anyone of us would have a chance either, esp. since they have a pet hellound (homebrew), so when it comes to party decisions they can basically do whatever they feel like. They will often sneak ahead, do something and even if someone is against it or wanted to do something on their own, just by the fact that our characters can't sneak and that the R/R has so many useful abilities they basically lead the way. Its kind of hard to find my own niche in there.
Sorlock really sounds like a nice idea. Spell Slots. Metamagic. Even at Lvl 3. So I can get all my Arcana. And I can builds a controller/blaster mix with an elemental companion. My character is rather big and his STR stat is high too, so its weird to play a character like this as a spellcaster. Maybe its just me having trouble with it idk. But it sounds like the best option and the best narrative tie in as well.
Should I go that path, you guys have any advice on when to dip into Sorcerer? Lvl 1 won't net me a lot, the advantages pretty much start at Lvl 2 (aside from extra spell slots), so its hard to determine when. I would recon not too late. But Im not sure if I want to do it right after Lvl 9 (where I get my Invocation), Lvl 10 (where I get Fiendish Resilience) or Lvl 11 (where the long awaited 3rd Lvl5 spell slot comes).
Is "Dominate Monster" any good for a 8th level spell? I can see myself having a lot of fun with it, but most enemies would make the save with advantage (since I assume we'd be in combat most of the time unless we manage to somehow sneak up to it), and it gets a saving throw whenever it takes damage.
I have a hard time choosing a spell for that Arcanum, the choices don't seem that great. I know there is maddening Darkness, but its 8d8 and no other effects, thats really not that much if you think about it. Plus it requires concentration too.