So I have a question, Blade Singer's Lvl 6 Extra attack allows them to cast a cantrip along with an attack. Lvl 7 Eldritch Knight feature allows them to make a bonus action attack when you use your turn to cast a cantrip. So how does it pan out? Does the cantrip cast while extra attacking trigger the BA Attack or no?
RAW I'd say no they don't stack as the eldritch knight says you have to use your action to cast the cantrip and the bladesinger is when you take the attack action you can cast a cantrip in place of one attack.
However, from a DM POV, I'd likely allow it as a player would have to invest 13 levels into the character to pull it off so all hings considered it's not so bad, but it'd be monitored and if it was horrendously overpowered then i'd would get changed back to RAW.
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These are the exact wordings of the abilities for the Eldritch Knight and Bladesinger:
War Magic
Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.
Extra Attack
6th-level Bladesinging feature
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
Based on the wording of both of the those abilities, the answer would be "No". The Eldritch Knight's ability requires to use your action to cast a Cantrip, while the Bladesinger's abilitiy requires you to take the Attack action. These are two separate actions taken. Even if you do cast a cantrip as part of the Attack action, you did not use your action to cast a cantrip.
Whilst thinking about this I just realised how potent those abilities are whether individually or together. Using either option you can cast Blade Ward every round and attack once every round so for all intents and purposes your a spell casting Barbarian.
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Holy crap that with like a rogue would be awesome it's insane. Now I also wonder what would happen if you get 11 lvls in fighter can you still do this stuff?
Persoanlly I don't think FIghter is the way to go. Adding Rogue could be useful if combined with Bladesinger (especially with evasion to dodge fireballs etc) but will hamper your spell slots so Bard could be more interesting in a "Mage Slayer/Nova Damage" build, designed to go through rank and file minions and close with spell casters.
The main probelm you'd have is keeping it playable as the more you multiiclass the fewer spell slots you might end up with, going bard college of whispers instead of rogue could give you the same sort of damage burst (rogue sneak attack vs college of whispers psychic blades) but the extra abilities might be the make or break of the character.
This would not be a build you are likely to be able to get to without years of successful play but, assuming you are patient enough or need a build for a lvl 20 one shot and using the version of Bladesinger in Tasha's Cauldron of Whatnot, you could build 6 lvls of wizard/bladesinger + 4 lvls of ranger/horizon walker + 10 lvls of bard/college of whispers. This would give you 18th level spell casting (so you still get 9th level spell slots) and a fighting style but limit you to level 3 Wizard spells, level 2 Ranger spells and level 5 Bard spells but that should give you enough options for whatever adventurers come your way.
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Is it really that OP Tbh? Cause can't I just get 2 weapons (Whether with the TWF Feat or no, it just affects the weapons I can choose) and 1 lvl fighter dip and I can attack with the BA with that. Cause I'm making the attack action and hitting the target with at least 1 normal attack.
TWF
When you take the Attack Action and Attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a Bonus Action to Attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus Attack, unless that modifier is negative.
If either weapon has the Thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee Attack with it.
Also, Bladesinging won't be canceled since it only gets canceled if you use 2 hands to make an attack and not attacking with 2 weapons with 1 hand each.
Apologies if I've gone off on a tangent or misunderstood anything so far as I tend to over analyize things but I'll sum up everything I've written below as: depending on what build you go for, having the ability to make an attack with your off hand as a bonus action maybe the last resort or least useful thing to do.
For me the reason the level 6 bladesinger ability is potent (not necessarily over powered), is there is no caveat or restricion on the type of cantrips you can use with it, so depending on the build of the character, as long as you know the cantrip, you can do some really wonderfully daft things. There are lots of thngs you could use your bonus action on aside from using it as an off hand attack so I think dipping into Fighter or Rogue isnt that great and if I were going to multiclass then I'd go for classes that still buff spell casting in some fashion.
To give some examples, if we assume you are a level 6 bladesinger in combat and you have managed to cast Shadow Blade before combat starts and you have a rapier Scimitarin the off hand (with a crystal ring on a finger as an arcane focus to get past some material componets and Warcaster to get around somatic components).
example 1: Use Attack Action: Attack 1: cast Blade Ward, Attack 2: attack with Shadow Blade, Bonus Action: attack with rapier Scimitar. Outcome, potentially 1 attack dealing 2d8 psychic damage + one dealing 1d6 slashing damge + half damage from most weapons till next turn which helps with maintaining concentration on Shadow Blade if you get hit.
example 2 (Assuming variant Human taking Spell Sniper for bonus feat): Use Attack Action: Attack 1: cast Eldritch Blast, Attack two: Throw Shadow Blade, Bonus Action: summon Shadow Blade back to you. Outcome: potentially 2 beams of Eldritch Blast dealing 1d10 Force Damage each and ignore 1/2 and 3/4 cover + 1 attack dealing 2d8 Psychic damage and you have shadow blade ready to repeat this each round.
example 3: Use Attack Action: Attack 1: Cast Shocking Grasp, Attack 2: attack with Shadow Blade, Bonus Action: cast Misty Step. Outcome: potentially deal 2d8 Lightning damage + 2d8 Psychic Damage + opponent possibly loses their reaction meaning they cannot use and AoO or Counterspell enabling you to get away.
So without multiclassing its already potent because at level 6 you can easily squeeze off 2-3 attack rolls a round and have some "effect" in play, if you use Haste instead of Shadow Blade you you get an additional attack on top of that as well and you already ahve a variety of things you could use yoru Bonus Action on.
If you multiclass and you got hold of some Sorcery Points you could use your Bonus Action to add Quickend spells in place of your off hand attacks, if you got bardic inspirations you could use your bonus action to dish them out or toss out Healing Word spells, depending on the class, you could also open up various "smite" spells and abilities to augment your attacks further and you also have feats and spells from other classes that can effect this as well such as using Hex or Hunters Mark in place of Haste or Shadow Blade.
EDIT: I only just realised that Rpaier wasn;t a light weappn so I tweaked the post to switch to scimitar
These are the exact wordings of the abilities for the Eldritch Knight and Bladesinger:
War Magic
Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.
Extra Attack
6th-level Bladesinging feature
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
Based on the wording of both of the those abilities, the answer would be "No". The Eldritch Knight's ability requires to use your action to cast a Cantrip, while the Bladesinger's abilitiy requires you to take the Attack action. These are two separate actions taken. Even if you do cast a cantrip as part of the Attack action, you did not use your action to cast a cantrip.
You see I am tempted to say RAW you can. War Magic doesn't say "when you take the Cast a Spell action to cast a cantrip" just "when you use your action to cast a cantrip." When you use a bladesinger's extra attack feature, you are using your action to cast that cantrip, even if it is only part of the entire action. A cantrip cast as part of the Attack action is still cast using your action.
I can see the ruling either way, but like Rob76 I would be willing to give the more favorable interpretation to a character who wanted to invest in that type of build, as it takes a while to "come online" fully. Its a build that wouldn't even work in a campaign that doesn't go beyond Tier 2 of play (like Curse of Strahd, as an example from published adventures).
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To further elaborate, when they cast a cantrip as part of Extra Attack, they are still using their action to cast that spell. If we say that the bladesinger cast a cantrip, but didnt use their action to do so, then when/how did they cast the cantrip on their turn? They didnt use their bonus action or a reaction (and I can't imagine it counts as a free action). Even though it is used as part of the Attack action rather than the Cast a Spell action, the bladesinger still used its main action on its turn in order to cast the cantrip.
So I have a question, Blade Singer's Lvl 6 Extra attack allows them to cast a cantrip along with an attack. Lvl 7 Eldritch Knight feature allows them to make a bonus action attack when you use your turn to cast a cantrip. So how does it pan out? Does the cantrip cast while extra attacking trigger the BA Attack or no?
Yes. Eldritch Knight L7 says use your action to cast a cantrip, so you don't have to use the Cast a Spell action - the Attack action is fine. So a Bladesinger 6/Eldritch Knight 7 can take the attack action, attack+cantrip from Bladesinger, then attack from EK.
This is one of those choices where there isn't exactly a clear answer. We have RaW that goes one way but we have clear indication that RaI goes the other way by knowing certain design choices made by WoTC that they have told us.
So do we nail everything down to RaW in the Strictest sense where by sheer technicality of the placement of a couple words in the two abilities does in fact make it possible? or do we side with RaI by core intent that we know that says no it can't?
Strictest speaking by Raw and very detailed technicality of the words, not the logic, We have the situation that technically yes these two stack together. But we have the problem that the investment to get both of them is so high that you've kind of stunted the growth of the character in several other ways to get them together to make just this one trick work.
If we go by RaI then we know because WotC doesn't write any of these things with Multiclassing ever in mind or actual intent. Then we have the situation where the wording of Eldritch Knight has the Implication of the Cast a Spell Action to be able to cast that Cantrip and we have further support of this by later abilities that the EK picks up. Which means that the way that the blade singer works does not actually mix with the EK when we look at it this way.
So Which answer are you more inclined to look for?
On a little side note. The blade ward thing has long been an EK tactic. But it's often overlooked in favor of more damage from things like booming blade and green flame blade so it doesn't get talked about much.
It's a 13-level investment for the player's character to do the "cool thing" they want to do. By this time in-game, full casters have plane shift, Crown of Stars, Teleport, Resurrection, and other big battlefield-altering spells. Full fighters get to attack 3 times with the potential of great weapon master on all of them, and paladins just got 4th level spells. I'm not saying the combo wouldn't be good, it's just probably not the biggest concern for a DM by that point in the game when designing an encounter. And above all that, you have the golden rule. The rule of cool. Let them do the "cool thing;" they'll love you for it.
Holy crap that with like a rogue would be awesome it's insane. Now I also wonder what would happen if you get 11 lvls in fighter can you still do this stuff?
That is not as powerful as you think for a few reasons.
First Bladeward only works on weapon attacks, so that elemental that is making a "slam" attach or the Rapter that is biting you are not affected.
Second you take a huge damage hit when you do this since the Cantrip does more damage than the attack.
Finally with a bladesinger you should not be getting hit with attacks a lot anyway and the cantrip does nothing at all if you don't get hit with a weapon attack.
I would say no. You are using your action to attack, not to cast a cantrip.
What if I cast Prestidigitation or Mage Hand as part of the Bladesinger's Extra Attack action? Then, not only did I cast a cantrip, but I did so with one that did not result in me making an attack of any sort.
As an action, I choose to take the Attack action. As part of that action, I cast a cantrip. This cantrip was not cast using a bonus action, reaction, or free action. It was explicitly tied to the Extra Attack modification of my Attack action. Regardless of it being the Attack action, that action resulted in me casting a cantrip. Therefor the condition "when you use your action to cast a cantrip" is still satisfied.
As I said in my earlier comment, I see no reason to forbid something like this. If you want to try and pair it up the Eldritch Knight for shenanigans, the earliest you can do so is Bladesinger (6) Eldritch Knight (7), which is already almost 2/3 of the way through possible character progression and past the point where many campaigns conclude.
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I would say no. You are using your action to attack, not to cast a cantrip.
What if I cast Prestidigitation or Mage Hand as part of the Bladesinger's Extra Attack action? Then, not only did I cast a cantrip, but I did so with one that did not result in me making an attack of any sort.
As an action, I choose to take the Attack action. As part of that action, I cast a cantrip. This cantrip was not cast using a bonus action, reaction, or free action. It was explicitly tied to the Extra Attack modification of my Attack action. Regardless of it being the Attack action, that action resulted in me casting a cantrip. Therefor the condition "when you use your action to cast a cantrip" is still satisfied.
As I said in my earlier comment, I see no reason to forbid something like this. If you want to try and pair it up the Eldritch Knight for shenanigans, the earliest you can do so is Bladesinger (6) Eldritch Knight (7), which is already almost 2/3 of the way through possible character progression and past the point where many campaigns conclude.
What is central to me in the discussion is you are using the attack action, not the cast a spell action when you use the bladesinger extra attack feature.
I do agree there is room for interpretation though.
I would say no. You are using your action to attack, not to cast a cantrip.
What if I cast Prestidigitation or Mage Hand as part of the Bladesinger's Extra Attack action? Then, not only did I cast a cantrip, but I did so with one that did not result in me making an attack of any sort.
As an action, I choose to take the Attack action. As part of that action, I cast a cantrip. This cantrip was not cast using a bonus action, reaction, or free action. It was explicitly tied to the Extra Attack modification of my Attack action. Regardless of it being the Attack action, that action resulted in me casting a cantrip. Therefor the condition "when you use your action to cast a cantrip" is still satisfied.
As I said in my earlier comment, I see no reason to forbid something like this. If you want to try and pair it up the Eldritch Knight for shenanigans, the earliest you can do so is Bladesinger (6) Eldritch Knight (7), which is already almost 2/3 of the way through possible character progression and past the point where many campaigns conclude.
What is central to me in the discussion is you are using the attack action, not the cast a spell action when you use the bladesinger extra attack feature.
If the Eldritch Knight ability said "When you use the Cast a Spell action to cast a cantrip..." I would agree, but it simply states to "When you use your action to cast a cantrip..."
I can see your argument from a RAI standpoint, but RAW casting a cantrip using a Bladesinger's Attack action is still casting a cantrip using your action. Id be inclined to push for a more RAI interpretation if the combo seemed easily accessible or cheesy, but you're either giving up 6 levels in Fighter {two subclass features, extra uses of Action Surge and Indomitable, and your 4th attack} or 7 levels in Wizard {high level spells, subclass capstone, spell mastery, and signature spells} to make this combo work, so to me the investment cost is pretty high.
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So I have a question, Blade Singer's Lvl 6 Extra attack allows them to cast a cantrip along with an attack. Lvl 7 Eldritch Knight feature allows them to make a bonus action attack when you use your turn to cast a cantrip. So how does it pan out? Does the cantrip cast while extra attacking trigger the BA Attack or no?
RAW I'd say no they don't stack as the eldritch knight says you have to use your action to cast the cantrip and the bladesinger is when you take the attack action you can cast a cantrip in place of one attack.
However, from a DM POV, I'd likely allow it as a player would have to invest 13 levels into the character to pull it off so all hings considered it's not so bad, but it'd be monitored and if it was horrendously overpowered then i'd would get changed back to RAW.
These are the exact wordings of the abilities for the Eldritch Knight and Bladesinger:
War Magic
Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.
Extra Attack
6th-level Bladesinging feature
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
Based on the wording of both of the those abilities, the answer would be "No". The Eldritch Knight's ability requires to use your action to cast a Cantrip, while the Bladesinger's abilitiy requires you to take the Attack action. These are two separate actions taken. Even if you do cast a cantrip as part of the Attack action, you did not use your action to cast a cantrip.
Whilst thinking about this I just realised how potent those abilities are whether individually or together. Using either option you can cast Blade Ward every round and attack once every round so for all intents and purposes your a spell casting Barbarian.
Holy crap that with like a rogue would be awesome it's insane. Now I also wonder what would happen if you get 11 lvls in fighter can you still do this stuff?
Persoanlly I don't think FIghter is the way to go. Adding Rogue could be useful if combined with Bladesinger (especially with evasion to dodge fireballs etc) but will hamper your spell slots so Bard could be more interesting in a "Mage Slayer/Nova Damage" build, designed to go through rank and file minions and close with spell casters.
The main probelm you'd have is keeping it playable as the more you multiiclass the fewer spell slots you might end up with, going bard college of whispers instead of rogue could give you the same sort of damage burst (rogue sneak attack vs college of whispers psychic blades) but the extra abilities might be the make or break of the character.
This would not be a build you are likely to be able to get to without years of successful play but, assuming you are patient enough or need a build for a lvl 20 one shot and using the version of Bladesinger in Tasha's Cauldron of Whatnot, you could build 6 lvls of wizard/bladesinger + 4 lvls of ranger/horizon walker + 10 lvls of bard/college of whispers. This would give you 18th level spell casting (so you still get 9th level spell slots) and a fighting style but limit you to level 3 Wizard spells, level 2 Ranger spells and level 5 Bard spells but that should give you enough options for whatever adventurers come your way.
Is it really that OP Tbh? Cause can't I just get 2 weapons (Whether with the TWF Feat or no, it just affects the weapons I can choose) and 1 lvl fighter dip and I can attack with the BA with that. Cause I'm making the attack action and hitting the target with at least 1 normal attack.
Also, Bladesinging won't be canceled since it only gets canceled if you use 2 hands to make an attack and not attacking with 2 weapons with 1 hand each.
Apologies if I've gone off on a tangent or misunderstood anything so far as I tend to over analyize things but I'll sum up everything I've written below as: depending on what build you go for, having the ability to make an attack with your off hand as a bonus action maybe the last resort or least useful thing to do.
For me the reason the level 6 bladesinger ability is potent (not necessarily over powered), is there is no caveat or restricion on the type of cantrips you can use with it, so depending on the build of the character, as long as you know the cantrip, you can do some really wonderfully daft things. There are lots of thngs you could use your bonus action on aside from using it as an off hand attack so I think dipping into Fighter or Rogue isnt that great and if I were going to multiclass then I'd go for classes that still buff spell casting in some fashion.
To give some examples, if we assume you are a level 6 bladesinger in combat and you have managed to cast Shadow Blade before combat starts and you have ain the off hand (with a crystal ring on a finger as an arcane focus to get past some material componets and Warcaster to get around somatic components).
rapierScimitarexample 1: Use Attack Action: Attack 1: cast Blade Ward, Attack 2: attack with Shadow Blade, Bonus Action: attack with
rapierScimitar. Outcome, potentially 1 attack dealing 2d8 psychic damage + one dealing 1d6 slashing damge + half damage from most weapons till next turn which helps with maintaining concentration on Shadow Blade if you get hit.example 2 (Assuming variant Human taking Spell Sniper for bonus feat): Use Attack Action: Attack 1: cast Eldritch Blast, Attack two: Throw Shadow Blade, Bonus Action: summon Shadow Blade back to you. Outcome: potentially 2 beams of Eldritch Blast dealing 1d10 Force Damage each and ignore 1/2 and 3/4 cover + 1 attack dealing 2d8 Psychic damage and you have shadow blade ready to repeat this each round.
example 3: Use Attack Action: Attack 1: Cast Shocking Grasp, Attack 2: attack with Shadow Blade, Bonus Action: cast Misty Step. Outcome: potentially deal 2d8 Lightning damage + 2d8 Psychic Damage + opponent possibly loses their reaction meaning they cannot use and AoO or Counterspell enabling you to get away.
So without multiclassing its already potent because at level 6 you can easily squeeze off 2-3 attack rolls a round and have some "effect" in play, if you use Haste instead of Shadow Blade you you get an additional attack on top of that as well and you already ahve a variety of things you could use yoru Bonus Action on.
If you multiclass and you got hold of some Sorcery Points you could use your Bonus Action to add Quickend spells in place of your off hand attacks, if you got bardic inspirations you could use your bonus action to dish them out or toss out Healing Word spells, depending on the class, you could also open up various "smite" spells and abilities to augment your attacks further and you also have feats and spells from other classes that can effect this as well such as using Hex or Hunters Mark in place of Haste or Shadow Blade.
EDIT: I only just realised that Rpaier wasn;t a light weappn so I tweaked the post to switch to scimitar
You see I am tempted to say RAW you can. War Magic doesn't say "when you take the Cast a Spell action to cast a cantrip" just "when you use your action to cast a cantrip." When you use a bladesinger's extra attack feature, you are using your action to cast that cantrip, even if it is only part of the entire action. A cantrip cast as part of the Attack action is still cast using your action.
I can see the ruling either way, but like Rob76 I would be willing to give the more favorable interpretation to a character who wanted to invest in that type of build, as it takes a while to "come online" fully. Its a build that wouldn't even work in a campaign that doesn't go beyond Tier 2 of play (like Curse of Strahd, as an example from published adventures).
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To further elaborate, when they cast a cantrip as part of Extra Attack, they are still using their action to cast that spell. If we say that the bladesinger cast a cantrip, but didnt use their action to do so, then when/how did they cast the cantrip on their turn? They didnt use their bonus action or a reaction (and I can't imagine it counts as a free action). Even though it is used as part of the Attack action rather than the Cast a Spell action, the bladesinger still used its main action on its turn in order to cast the cantrip.
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Yes. Eldritch Knight L7 says use your action to cast a cantrip, so you don't have to use the Cast a Spell action - the Attack action is fine. So a Bladesinger 6/Eldritch Knight 7 can take the attack action, attack+cantrip from Bladesinger, then attack from EK.
This is one of those choices where there isn't exactly a clear answer. We have RaW that goes one way but we have clear indication that RaI goes the other way by knowing certain design choices made by WoTC that they have told us.
So do we nail everything down to RaW in the Strictest sense where by sheer technicality of the placement of a couple words in the two abilities does in fact make it possible? or do we side with RaI by core intent that we know that says no it can't?
Strictest speaking by Raw and very detailed technicality of the words, not the logic, We have the situation that technically yes these two stack together. But we have the problem that the investment to get both of them is so high that you've kind of stunted the growth of the character in several other ways to get them together to make just this one trick work.
If we go by RaI then we know because WotC doesn't write any of these things with Multiclassing ever in mind or actual intent. Then we have the situation where the wording of Eldritch Knight has the Implication of the Cast a Spell Action to be able to cast that Cantrip and we have further support of this by later abilities that the EK picks up. Which means that the way that the blade singer works does not actually mix with the EK when we look at it this way.
So Which answer are you more inclined to look for?
On a little side note. The blade ward thing has long been an EK tactic. But it's often overlooked in favor of more damage from things like booming blade and green flame blade so it doesn't get talked about much.
It's a 13-level investment for the player's character to do the "cool thing" they want to do. By this time in-game, full casters have plane shift, Crown of Stars, Teleport, Resurrection, and other big battlefield-altering spells. Full fighters get to attack 3 times with the potential of great weapon master on all of them, and paladins just got 4th level spells. I'm not saying the combo wouldn't be good, it's just probably not the biggest concern for a DM by that point in the game when designing an encounter. And above all that, you have the golden rule. The rule of cool. Let them do the "cool thing;" they'll love you for it.
I would say no. You are using your action to attack, not to cast a cantrip.
That is not as powerful as you think for a few reasons.
First Bladeward only works on weapon attacks, so that elemental that is making a "slam" attach or the Rapter that is biting you are not affected.
Second you take a huge damage hit when you do this since the Cantrip does more damage than the attack.
Finally with a bladesinger you should not be getting hit with attacks a lot anyway and the cantrip does nothing at all if you don't get hit with a weapon attack.
What if I cast Prestidigitation or Mage Hand as part of the Bladesinger's Extra Attack action? Then, not only did I cast a cantrip, but I did so with one that did not result in me making an attack of any sort.
As an action, I choose to take the Attack action. As part of that action, I cast a cantrip. This cantrip was not cast using a bonus action, reaction, or free action. It was explicitly tied to the Extra Attack modification of my Attack action. Regardless of it being the Attack action, that action resulted in me casting a cantrip. Therefor the condition "when you use your action to cast a cantrip" is still satisfied.
As I said in my earlier comment, I see no reason to forbid something like this. If you want to try and pair it up the Eldritch Knight for shenanigans, the earliest you can do so is Bladesinger (6) Eldritch Knight (7), which is already almost 2/3 of the way through possible character progression and past the point where many campaigns conclude.
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What is central to me in the discussion is you are using the attack action, not the cast a spell action when you use the bladesinger extra attack feature.
I do agree there is room for interpretation though.
If the Eldritch Knight ability said "When you use the Cast a Spell action to cast a cantrip..." I would agree, but it simply states to "When you use your action to cast a cantrip..."
I can see your argument from a RAI standpoint, but RAW casting a cantrip using a Bladesinger's Attack action is still casting a cantrip using your action. Id be inclined to push for a more RAI interpretation if the combo seemed easily accessible or cheesy, but you're either giving up 6 levels in Fighter {two subclass features, extra uses of Action Surge and Indomitable, and your 4th attack} or 7 levels in Wizard {high level spells, subclass capstone, spell mastery, and signature spells} to make this combo work, so to me the investment cost is pretty high.
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