I'm fascinated about what might naturally happen in 5e world's if logic was allowed to run its course.
I previously wrote on how 2nd level artificers might be able to profit considerably by hiring out infusions especially if RAW rules were take at face value to allow artificers to infuse spellwought tattoos.
But, while artificers from second-level can infuse items, wizards from first-level can write spells.
Regarding the Wizards' spellcasting feature we read information related to:
YOUR SPELLBOOK ... Replacing the Book.You can copy a spell from your own spellbook into another book—for example, if you want to make a backup copy of your spellbook. This is just like copying a new spell into your spellbook, but faster and easier, since you understand your own notation and already know how to cast the spell. You need spend only 1 hour and 10 gp for each level of the copied spell. ...
So, basically, you can make copies of your spellbook in your own notation style with a bit of time and 10 gp worth of materials for each level of the copied spell. You could do this "for example, if you want to make a backup copy of your spellbook" but, RAW, that's just an option, not a restriction.
Compare this to the costs, in xanathar's, as mentioned in the section on:
With time and patience, a spellcaster can transfer a spell to a scroll, creating a spell scroll.
Resources. Scribing a spell scroll takes an amount of time and money related to the level of the spell the character wants to scribe, as shown in the Spell Scroll Costs table. In addition, the character must have proficiency in the Arcana skill and must provide any material components required for the casting of the spell. Moreover, the character must have the spell prepared, or it must be among the character’s known spells, in order to scribe a scroll of that spell.
If the scribed spell is a cantrip, the version on the scroll works as if the caster were 1st level.
Spell Scroll Costs
Spell Level
Time
Cost
Cantrip
1 day
15 gp
1st
1 day
25 gp
2nd
3 days
250 gp
3rd
1 workweek
500 gp
4th
2 workweeks
2,500 gp
5th
4 workweeks
5,000 gp
6th
8 workweeks
15,000 gp
7th
16 workweeks
25,000 gp
8th
32 workweeks
50,000 gp
9th
48 workweeks
250,000 gp
The text isn't clear about whether the costs mentioned reflect production costs or suggested sales costs. What is clear is that, when it comes to learning spells, spell scrolls aren't so good: "... A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied. When a spell is copied from a spell scroll, the copier must succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check with a DC equal to 10 + the spell's level. If the check succeeds, the spell is successfully copied. Whether the check succeeds or fails, the spell scroll is destroyed. ..."
Why would a wizard scribe a scroll if the purpose was for another wizard to write the spell into their spellbook if they could just write the content straight into a different spellbook (or a different page of the wizard's spellbook) more quickly?
A workweek in downtime is defined as five days (Faerunians, with tenday long weeks, may have an easy life).
So, if the third level spell requiring one workweek was completed in 8 hour a day stints, it would have taken 40 hours. That's enough time to write 13 third level spells into a 50 gp grimoire with material costs of 390 gp with an hour to spare.
Now, does xanathar's 250 gp quote for the cost of a third level spell scroll relate to the production cost or sales cost? Either way, a sales value is suggested, and yet the same content could be produced in a spellbook but quicker. Sure the write up in a grimoire would not contain the power for an additional, as needed, casting of the spell but, if the scroll was to be used as source material for another grimoire, that wouldn't matter. Spellbooks would be able to be knocked out relatively quickly and their contents would not disappear after any attempted copying.
For these reasons, I think that (if logical implications of RAW were followed) grimoires containing commonly desired spells would become a common fixture in trade. Shops and libraries would likely contain them so that they could either be sold or so that deals could be struck with potential customers who just wanted access.
It throws up a bunch of other questions in turn. What enables someone to become a wizard? There's no Intelligence prerequisite: so if it's only a matter of investing money, shouldn't the state be paying for battle wizards to be trained from its brightest youngsters? Why are wizards rare at all?
Why are clerics rare for that matter? Why doesn't everyone do some cleric training and learning Cure Wounds if nothing else?
Why are Commoners just Commoners and have no class? A PC with the same stats as a Commoner can have a class.
In a world where someone skilled might make 2 gp/ day, but it costs 1gp/day to live, saving up the hundreds (or more) of gold it would take to bans Wiz would be prohibitively expensive.
Clerics don’t choose to be clerics, they get chosen.
The “costs” are the cost to create, the projected sale prices are double those figures. So it costs 25 gp to make a scroll of a 1st-level spell, but it would sell for about 50 gp, a 3rd-level would costs 250 gp to make, sell for approximately 500 gp.
RAW, if a Wizard wants to copy a spell from another Wizard’s Spellbook, they must first copy it onto a scroll and then copy it into their own book. The added expense of first copying it to a scroll is to cover the added effort of figuring out the other Wizard’s notation before attempting to copy it into your own Spellbook. So starting from a scroll is the cheaper option.
In addition, Wizard’s don’t copy spells onto scrolls so other Wizard’s can copy them. Wizard’s write scrolls so they can cast the enscrolled spell later without having to burn a spell slot for it.
It throws up a bunch of other questions in turn. What enables someone to become a wizard? There's no Intelligence prerequisite: so if it's only a matter of investing money, shouldn't the state be paying for battle wizards to be trained from its brightest youngsters? Why are wizards rare at all?
Why are clerics rare for that matter? Why doesn't everyone do some cleric training and learning Cure Wounds if nothing else?
Why are Commoners just Commoners and have no class? A PC with the same stats as a Commoner can have a class.
As a player, a first-level character of another class would just need to kill 6 goblins at 50 xp a piece to get the 300 xp to begin wizardry. Unless the player or DM works in more to the story, a spellbook will then magically appear or be retconned into their inventory and much wizarding may start from there.
What it may be like for NPCs could be a completely different thing. Different rules may apply.
A bugbear PC has a reach of 10 ft. A bugbear monster can only reach 5.
How easy is magic to learn for NPCs? As a DM you can decide.
The “costs” are the cost to create, the projected sale prices are double those figures. So it costs 25 gp to make a scroll of a 1st-level spell, but it would sell for about 50 gp, a 3rd-level would costs 250 gp to make, sell for approximately 500 gp.
RAW, if a Wizard wants to copy a spell from another Wizard’s Spellbook, they must first copy it onto a scroll and then copy it into their own book. The added expense of first copying it to a scroll is to cover the added effort of figuring out the other Wizard’s notation before attempting to copy it into your own Spellbook. So starting from a scroll is the cheaper option.
In addition, Wizard’s don’t copy spells onto scrolls so other Wizard’s can copy them. Wizard’s write scrolls so they can cast the enscrolled spell later without having to burn a spell slot for it.
Thanks, I hadn't taken that in.
The Scribing a Spell Scroll text says that "Scribing a spell scroll takes an amount of time and money related to the level of the spell the character wants to scribe, as shown in the Spell Scroll Costs table."
That leaves their projected sales costs really high, and perhaps this may explain why I've not heard people talking about them. They're generally even higher than those quoted in the sane magic item prices listings. Personally, I suspect the sane prices may be generally better balanced.
If you go with Sane prices then the cost would be half of that price. Personally I think 5 gp a little cheap for a cantrip scroll, and 5k cheap for a 9th-level scroll, but that’s me.
The “costs” are the cost to create, the projected sale prices are double those figures. So it costs 25 gp to make a scroll of a 1st-level spell, but it would sell for about 50 gp, a 3rd-level would costs 250 gp to make, sell for approximately 500 gp.
RAW, if a Wizard wants to copy a spell from another Wizard’s Spellbook, they must first copy it onto a scroll and then copy it into their own book. The added expense of first copying it to a scroll is to cover the added effort of figuring out the other Wizard’s notation before attempting to copy it into your own Spellbook. So starting from a scroll is the cheaper option.
In addition, Wizard’s don’t copy spells onto scrolls so other Wizard’s can copy them. Wizard’s write scrolls so they can cast the enscrolled spell later without having to burn a spell slot for it.
UM where did you get that RAW? Maybe I am not understanding what you are saying, but there is no requirement to turn it into a scroll first. If you find a spell you can put it directly in your spell book whether you found it in a spell book or a scroll. In fact the RAW implies the norm is straight spell book to spell book as it talks about deciphering the other wizards notes and practicing from it.
The “costs” are the cost to create, the projected sale prices are double those figures. So it costs 25 gp to make a scroll of a 1st-level spell, but it would sell for about 50 gp, a 3rd-level would costs 250 gp to make, sell for approximately 500 gp.
RAW, if a Wizard wants to copy a spell from another Wizard’s Spellbook, they must first copy it onto a scroll and then copy it into their own book. The added expense of first copying it to a scroll is to cover the added effort of figuring out the other Wizard’s notation before attempting to copy it into your own Spellbook. So starting from a scroll is the cheaper option.
In addition, Wizard’s don’t copy spells onto scrolls so other Wizard’s can copy them. Wizard’s write scrolls so they can cast the enscrolled spell later without having to burn a spell slot for it.
UM where did you get that RAW? Maybe I am not understanding what you are saying, but there is no requirement to turn it into a scroll first. If you find a spell you can put it directly in your spell book whether you found it in a spell book or a scroll. In fact the RAW implies the norm is straight spell book to spell book as it talks about deciphering the other wizards notes and practicing from it.
... Regarding the Wizards' spellcasting feature we read information related to:
YOUR SPELLBOOK ... Replacing the Book.You can copy a spell from your own spellbook into another book—for example, if you want to make a backup copy of your spellbook. This is just like copying a new spell into your spellbook, but faster and easier, since you understand your own notation and already know how to cast the spell. You need spend only 1 hour and 10 gp for each level of the copied spell. ...
So, basically, you can make copies of your spellbook in your own notation style with a bit of time and 10 gp worth of materials for each level of the copied spell. You could do this "for example, if you want to make a backup copy of your spellbook" but, RAW, that's just an option, not a restriction. ...
I don't see any reason why a wizard couldn't write a copy of a spell (in their own notation) on one page of another wizards spellbook. At this point, the normal Wizards' spellcasting rules could apply.
YOUR SPELLBOOK ...
Copying a Spell into the Book.When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
Copying that spell into your spellbook involves reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it. You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required, then transcribe it into your spellbook using your own notation.
For each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it. Once you have spent this time and money, you can prepare the spell just like your other spells.
Replacing the Book. ...
You could just 'find' the spell on one page of your spellbook and copy it onto another.
Otherwise, instead of going to the trouble and expense of writing a scroll, a wizard could more cost-efficiently go to Grimores 'R' Us (or, perhaps, directly to a quality bookbinder), buy a 50gp spellbook and copy in a third level spell in 3 hours with 30gp worth of ink in the same way as "for example, if you want[ed] to make a backup copy of your spellbook".
It could cost even less for copying spells if permitting school features that allowed gold and time spent to copy a spell (of the relevant school) into your spellbook to be halved.
I guess I was mistaken. I must have misread, misremembered, or misunderstood something, or else I got confused with something else. I could have sworn there was an omission or something that precluded a Wiz from copying directly from another Wizard’s Spellbook for some reason. However, I thought I remembered that there wasn’t anything against scribing a scroll from another Wizard’s spellbook, and that was the workaround. I wonder where in the heck I got that notion!?!
Basically, in comparison to the abundance of grimoires in a 5e world, spell scrolls could be incredibly rare. They are "consumable" and contain content that gets consumed with use. In comparison grimoires, in some ways, have greater value, they are relatively cheaply produced and they're permanent. Grimoires could be sourced from wizards who copy spell from spellbooks into another book or they could be left by dead wizards and a supply of spellbooks would gradually build up.
The only thing that might reduce a general supply of spellbooks in an open market is if there were specific collectors gathering copies. Maybe there's some Waterdeep patron collecting spellbooks for a purpose such as to compare wizardly notations. However, any collector collecting grimoires, might also collect spell scrolls - so, to some extent, things might balance out.
Generally, when seeking a reference copy of a spell, a 5e wizard might be far more likely to find it in permanent form in a grimoire than in consumable form on a scroll.
in general, most of what WotC has done to streamline D&D for this edition makes sense. I think it’s a little too streamlined for my tastes, but that’s more to do with quantity than quality. However, there are a few areas where the things they include make less sense than they should because the stuff they omitted was what tied those other things together logically. This happens to be one of those areas IMO.
In older editions a Wizard*1 only learned 1 spells automatically at every level.*2 To expand one’s catalog of spells a Wizard had to either copy them from a preexisting spellbook*3 or else they had to research*4 the magical theory behind a spell scroll they had located, or to invent their own brand new spells. A Wizard’s Spellbook*5 was therefore as much a Wizard’s personal & research journals, and personal treatise on Arcane Theory as their spell index. It was actually RAW that a Wizard’s Spellbook was very finite on pages, therefore a Wizard’s “Spellbook” would inevitably span several volumes like an encyclopedia (if they lived long enough). Wizards would typically only carry an abridged “Traveling Spellbook” when adventuring, resulting in a Wiz only having access to a limited selection of spells from the total list they had learned and copied. Copying a spell required 1 page per spell level, and it cost 50gp/page to copy a pell into a Spellbook, or 100gp/page to copy a spell into a Travel Spellbook.
Honestly though, the costs to copy spells was small change compared to the costs of research. Researching a new spell cost anywhere between 100gp—1,000gp/ spell level if they had a stocked laboratory.That lab cost anywhere from 1,000–10,000gp, to assemble. And after a spell was successfully researched, it still had to be copied into the Wizard’s Spellbook and Travel Spellbook at the standard rates (50gp & 100gp respectively) too. Even if a player didn’t want to research any new spells, they still needed the laboratory to research and decipher spell scrolls (at half the standard research cost) they had found just so they could leans those spells and copy them into their Spellbooks, and they needed it to research the creation of magic items eventually anyway. (But they couldn’t even scribe Spell Scrolls until 9th level. 🙄) One of the ways PCs used to be able to afford the exorbitant costs I have mentioned was by scribing scrolls or brewing potions and then selling them on the open market.
Since WotC has largely streamlined that research into non-existence, and made the sale of magic items taboo (even consumables), we have a situation where Spellbooks should logically be fairly prevalent since it only makes sense for a Wiz to sell an acquired Spellbook once they have copied all the spells into their own. And Spell Scrolls should logically be fairly hard to come by since it only makes sense for a Spellcaster to scribe scrolls they genuinely think they might need, and orly use them when specifically necessary. However, a market flooded with used Spellbooks while Spell Scrolls are dear runs exactly contra to what is indicated by the lore. The whole thing ended up bass-ackwards because WotC kept the books and scrolls, but dropped the Spellbooks’ other uses, the general need for research, and decided to model the Magic Item market after the IR sale of stolen art or illicit substances instead of something more realistic (like the legitimate art market, or antiques). Fortunately, I already implemented houserule/homebrew systems to address those omissions by WotC, and since those omissions caused this circumstance too, I accidentally corrected this discrepancy before I even noticed the contradiction:
I still treat Spellbooks as valuable research and reference materials. To that end, if a PC finds a Wizard’s Spellbook they would benefit from adding it to their own library. After all, creating a magic item in 5e still requires a specific “formula,*6” and an acquired Spellbook would be an excellent place to find such formulas recorded by the book’s former owner when they researched the creation of that item. I also have no problem whatsoever encouraging players to homebrew, so their PCs actually have the opportunity to invent new spells, requiring research. Now, there is a logical reason why spellcasters (not just Wizards) would hold onto Spellbooks they have found rather than divest.
In addition, my campaign world has “Brokers,” purveyors of magic items on a Pawn/Consignment/Auction model. Brokers’ Inventories are not fixed, there is no way for a Broker to order more of something when low on stock. Most of the time Brokers have a variety of consumables and permanent magic items, their rarity determined by the shoppe’s location. For example, a mid-sized town on a well traveled road might have common and uncommon consumables and common permanent items. A large town frequented by Adventurers would likely have consumables from common to uncommon with a chance of a few rare ones, and permanent magic items ranging from common to minor uncommon with a chance of a couple major uncommon items. A small to midsized city would would have common, uncommon, and some rare consumables with a chance for a Very Rare or two; and permanent items including more major uncommon items and a chance for a rare or two. Large cities and capitals would creep a little higher still (I think youse all get the idea). I generate Brokers’ inventories randomly, so rarely do they actually have stuff the party wants. Most of the time PCs use Brokers to offload unwanted stuff they’ve collected, or put out feelers for stuff they are looking for. (Those feelers are basically an in-character way to submit wish lists to the DM. They might have to make a mission of acquiring said item; or they might (eventually) come across something similar to what they wanted, but not exactly the same. But it’s a way for them to ask without it being unseemly.)
... In older editions a Wizard*1 only learned 1 spells automatically at every level.*2 To expand one’s catalog of spells a Wizard had to either copy them from a preexisting spellbook*3 ...
The acquisition options for preexisting spells were mostly the same as we have now but with wizards only getting 1 spell automatically at every level instead of 2.
Otherwise, options for the Acquisition of Spells Beyond the 1st Level were: - to copy spells from the spell books of other wizards, (though "When copying spells, a character must roll to see if the character can learn the spell") - to do some "Scroll Research" so that "the time and cost required for the research is half normal ... [but with the problem that] the scroll is destroyed—the wizard had to read it aloud to analyze its effects" - or to "Study with a Mentor" if one can be accessed.
The situation was still one in which spell scrolls would have been consumed in a process of copying use while spellbooks would have remained.
Within a 2e spellbook "Each spell requires a number of pages equal to its level plus 0-5 (1d6-1)" and the costs "For the materials and their preparation, the wizard must pay 50 gp per page. Traveling spell books, which are even more compact, cost 100 gp per page." Spell Book Preparation further specifies "The standard amount of time required to prepare a spell book is one to two days of work per spell level of the spell being entered".
Copying a 2e 1st level spell would have cost 50-300gp into a standard spellbook while copying in a 9th level spell would have cost 450-700gp.
YOUR SPELLBOOK ... Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
Copying that spell into your spellbook involves reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it. You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required, then transcribe it into your spellbook using your own notation.
For each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it. Once you have spent this time and money, you can prepare the spell just like your other spells.
Replacing the Book.You can copy a spell from your own spellbook into another book—for example, if you want to make a backup copy of your spellbook. This is just like copying a new spell into your spellbook, but faster and easier, since you understand your own notation and already know how to cast the spell. You need spend only 1 hour and 10 gp for each level of the copied spell.
If you lose your spellbook, you can use the same procedure to transcribe the spells that you have prepared into a new spellbook. Filling out the remainder of your spellbook requires you to find new spells to do so, as normal. For this reason, many wizards keep backup spellbooks in a safe place. ...
Copying a Spell into the Book. Copying a 5e 1st level spell monetarily costs 50gp and copying a 9th level spell costs 450gp.
[And when] copy[ing] a spell from your own spellbook into another book— Copying a 5e 1st level spell monetarily costs 10gp and copying a 9th level spell costs 90gp.
The 5e costs of [first time] copying a spell into a spellbook are at the lower end of the 2e standard spellbook copying costs or half of the lower end of the 2e travelling spellbook copying costs. The 5e costs of making additional copies is a 5th of the lower end of the 2e standard spellbook copying costs.
Otherwise, nothing much else has changed. The use of 2e spell scrolls meant that "the time and cost required for the research is half normal" but with the drawback that the content disappeared during the copying process. The contents of d&d grimoire spellbooks have always remained.
You seem to have completely missed my point. Yes, WotC kept the Spellbook part mostly the same, but they chopped of the research part, and with it the laboratory. They also took the sale of magic items like scrolls and potions that used to be commodities, and now it’s a wink-nudge, hint hint, back-alley black market scenario akin to IR illicit arms deals or something.
Everything about the Wiz was all about pouring over dusty old tomes, treatises, and manuscripts. It was called a “Wizard’s Laboratory,” but it was at least half Research Library/Study. To come up with the exorbitantly expensive Lab ASAP (to start researching from scrolls so as to expand one’s repertoire ASAP), the cheapest fastest way was to “liberate” one from a vanquished villain or rival. That included their Spellbooks. And at least in my circle back in the ‘90s, it was expected that more comprehensive and well stocked Labs were better than dinky ones. Ergo, it was common for Wizard players to expand their labs at every convenient opportunity. So there was a legitimate financial reason to hoard every Spellbook a Wiz found since a halfway filled in Spellbook was worth a ton of moolah, so it allowed us to hit that gp quota for a a functional Lab more quickly. The other reason a Wiz had to hoard Spellbooks was to prevent other Rival Wizards from expanding their research labs. And since pretty much any Wiz that wasn’t a PC or a mentor (or an apprentice) was considered a rival to some degree or other. (Even many of those mentors & apprentices were considered rivals eventually.) So it behooved all Wizards to keep every scrap of paper, parchment, or papyrus they found if it had anything arcane scribbled on it.
In 5e however, as soon as a Wiz has copied everything they want out of a “liberated” Spellbook, they may as well sell it for money to keep on copying spells since the book itself is no longer a useful resource to them any longer. In 2e, there were logical reasons why Spellbooks rarely (if ever) made their way into circulation, namely because other Wizards had them all. Whereas in 5e, the environment leads to there logically being a plethora of used Spellbooks all over the place.
In 2e, one of the best parts of hitting 9th level for a Wizard was that they could start crafting low-level scrolls and basic potions for sale to NPCs as a reasonably lucrative practice during downtime. Selling a simple scroll of protection could earn enough profit to fund the necessary research for that Ring of Whatever the Wiz was hoping to make for themselves. And since they were in reasonably high demand, and since customers had no choice but to go where the product was,…. So a Wiz could spend a li’l downtime (which was common then), create a few scrolls, “two for me, one for sale,” and usually cover the cost of creating all three from the sale of the one. (You know, how economies work.) Clerics sold healing potions to help generate income for their temples since bake sales hadn’t been invented yet. Selling a few consumable items was just… what we did to pay bills, not unlike my buddy who sells cornhole sets that he makes in his garage for extra money. (You know, the game with the beanbags you gotta toss at the wooden thing and try to get ‘em in the hole? He makes those wooden things and sells them as a cottage side-hustle.)
Now in 5e, selling a scroll is likely to get a person jacked like it’s a drug deal or something. So there used to be a logical explanation for why scrolls and potions were a bit more available, namely economics. But now the environment creates the logic that spell scrolls should be rarer than Spellbooks. It’s bass-ackwards because of the rational logic, and that all is how it is because WotC decided selling off some extra scrolls nowadays is verboten.
So while everything you mentioned in your post is true, it is not applicable to the point I was making. That point being that in 2e there were logical explanations for why Spellbooks were so hard to come by despite each Wizard having to create them in volumes and a travel-sized one too, and logical explanations for why scrolls were easier to come by. Whereas now in 5e, logic dictates that used Spellbooks should be all over the place, and scrolls should be rarer than theor “Rarities” indicate.
TL/DR: Or, in other words, I was agreeing with you:
Basically, in comparison to the abundance of grimoires in a 5e world, spell scrolls could be incredibly rare. They are "consumable" and contain content that gets consumed with use. In comparison grimoires, in some ways, have greater value, they are relatively cheaply produced and they're permanent. Grimoires could be sourced from wizards who copy spell from spellbooks into another book or they could be left by dead wizards and a supply of spellbooks would gradually build up.
The only thing that might reduce a general supply of spellbooks in an open market is if there were specific collectors gathering copies. Maybe there's some Waterdeep patron collecting spellbooks for a purpose such as to compare wizardly notations. However, any collector collecting grimoires, might also collect spell scrolls - so, to some extent, things might balance out.
Generally, when seeking a reference copy of a spell, a 5e wizard might be far more likely to find it in permanent form in a grimoire than in consumable form on a scroll.
You seem to have completely missed my point. Yes, WotC kept the Spellbook part mostly the same, but they chopped of the research part, and with it the laboratory. They also took the sale of magic items like scrolls and potions that used to be commodities, and now it’s a wink-nudge, hint hint, back-alley black market scenario akin to IR illicit arms deals or something. ...
DMG_Ch_7_Magic, Spell_Research relates to "the ability to research new spells". A wizard or cleric who was happy with an established range of spells could adopt more conventional methods for the Acquisition of Spells Beyond the 1st Level such as by learning them directly from spellbooks or scrolls.
... Everything about the Wiz was all about pouring over dusty old tomes, treatises, and manuscripts. It was called a “Wizard’s Laboratory,” but it was at least half Research Library/Study. To come up with the exorbitantly expensive Lab ASAP (to start researching from scrolls so as to expand one’s repertoire ASAP), the cheapest fastest way was to “liberate” one from a vanquished villain or rival. That included their Spellbooks. And at least in my circle back in the ‘90s, it was expected that more comprehensive and well stocked Labs were better than dinky ones. Ergo, it was common for Wizard players to expand their labs at every convenient opportunity. So there was a legitimate financial reason to hoard every Spellbook a Wiz found since a halfway filled in Spellbook was worth a ton of moolah, so it allowed us to hit that gp quota for a a functional Lab more quickly. The other reason a Wiz had to hoard Spellbooks was to prevent other Rival Wizards from expanding their research labs. And since pretty much any Wiz that wasn’t a PC or a mentor (or an apprentice) was considered a rival to some degree or other. (Even many of those mentors & apprentices were considered rivals eventually.) So it behooved all Wizards to keep every scrap of paper, parchment, or papyrus they found if it had anything arcane scribbled on it.
In 5e however, as soon as a Wiz has copied everything they want out of a “liberated” Spellbook, they may as well sell it for money to keep on copying spells since the book itself is no longer a useful resource to them any longer. In 2e, there were logical reasons why Spellbooks rarely (if ever) made their way into circulation, namely because other Wizards had them all. Whereas in 5e, the environment leads to there logically being a plethora of used Spellbooks all over the place.
In 2e, one of the best parts of hitting 9th level for a Wizard was that they could start crafting low-level scrolls and basic potions for sale to NPCs as a reasonably lucrative practice during downtime. Selling a simple scroll of protection could earn enough profit to fund the necessary research for that Ring of Whatever the Wiz was hoping to make for themselves. And since they were in reasonably high demand, and since customers had no choice but to go where the product was,…. So a Wiz could spend a li’l downtime (which was common then), create a few scrolls, “two for me, one for sale,” and usually cover the cost of creating all three from the sale of the one. (You know, how economies work.) Clerics sold healing potions to help generate income for their temples since bake sales hadn’t been invented yet. Selling a few consumable items was just… what we did to pay bills, not unlike my buddy who sells cornhole sets that he makes in his garage for extra money. (You know, the game with the beanbags you gotta toss at the wooden thing and try to get ‘em in the hole? He makes those wooden things and sells them as a cottage side-hustle.)
Now in 5e, selling a scroll is likely to get a person jacked like it’s a drug deal or something. So there used to be a logical explanation for why scrolls and potions were a bit more available, namely economics. But now the environment creates the logic that spell scrolls should be rarer than Spellbooks. It’s bass-ackwards because of the rational logic, and that all is how it is because WotC decided selling off some extra scrolls nowadays is verboten.
So while everything you mentioned in your post is true, it is not applicable to the point I was making. That point being that in 2e there were logical explanations for why Spellbooks were so hard to come by despite each Wizard having to create them in volumes and a travel-sized one too, and logical explanations for why scrolls were easier to come by. Whereas now in 5e, logic dictates that used Spellbooks should be all over the place, and scrolls should be rarer than theor “Rarities” indicate.
TL/DR: Or, in other words, I was agreeing with you:
Basically, in comparison to the abundance of grimoires in a 5e world, spell scrolls could be incredibly rare. They are "consumable" and contain content that gets consumed with use. In comparison grimoires, in some ways, have greater value, they are relatively cheaply produced and they're permanent. Grimoires could be sourced from wizards who copy spell from spellbooks into another book or they could be left by dead wizards and a supply of spellbooks would gradually build up.
The only thing that might reduce a general supply of spellbooks in an open market is if there were specific collectors gathering copies. Maybe there's some Waterdeep patron collecting spellbooks for a purpose such as to compare wizardly notations. However, any collector collecting grimoires, might also collect spell scrolls - so, to some extent, things might balance out.
Generally, when seeking a reference copy of a spell, a 5e wizard might be far more likely to find it in permanent form in a grimoire than in consumable form on a scroll.
Are you now pickin’ up what I was puttin’ down?
2e spell scrolls can be scribed by wizards, clerics or specialist geometers.
PLAYER'S OPTION- Spells & Magic Chapter 7: Spell Research and Magical Item Creation (in this pdf, from p170) ... Processes and Materials: Scrolls require three components: some form of paper, a specially-blended ink, and a unique quill. Common paper, parchment, or papyrus maybe used to create the scroll; paper provides a +5% bonus to the success roll, while papyrus inflicts a –5% penalty. All scrolls require a rare quill of some kind. Ink for spells of 1st to 3rd level requires a rare ingredient; ink for spells of 4th to 6th level requires an exotic ingredient; and ink for spells of 7th to 9th level requires a rare and an exotic ingredient. (Use the spell level equivalents noted above for protection scrolls.) Geometers have the special advantage of requiring nothing except common paper or parchment and a rare quill (which can only be used once); the ink is not important for the geometer’s scrolls. Cost and Time: Inscribing a spell onto a scroll takes one day per spell level, while creating a protection scroll takes one full week of uninterrupted work. The only cost incurred is that of obtaining the required materials. Geometers have the same time requirements, but must pay 100 gp per spell level for their materials for spell scrolls, or 300 to 1,800 gp (3d6x100) for protection scrolls. Success or Failure: The base chance to successfully create a scroll is 80%, +1% per character level, –1% per spell level (or equivalent spell level, in the case of protection scrolls). ...
So, basically, you've either got to get rare or exotic materials (presumably at DM's discretion) or, as a specialist, you've got to "pay 100 gp per spell level for their materials for spell scrolls". As I mentioned:
Copying a 2e 1st level spell would have cost 50-300gp into a standard spellbook while copying in a 9th level spell would have cost 450-700gp.
The materials for writing a 1st level scroll would cost 100 gp and for writing a 9th level scroll would cost 900gp. Not a lot of price difference but for the fact that the spellbook version remains after being read through.
A 2e wizard could start writing spells into spellbooks from as soon as s/he could understand that spell but could only start writing scrolls from 9th level.
I agree that:
Everything about the Wiz was all about pouring over dusty old tomes, treatises, and manuscripts.
I don't agree that this would necessarily have required a laboratory.
Sure, 9th wizards who wanted to research new spells in expensive laboratories might avidly seek valued spellbook resources. I just don't necessarily think that this would include every copy of magic missile or fireball penned by their 1st to 8th level juniors into any additional spellbook. These, I think could have potentially remained as fair game on the open market.
In some settings, wizards might certainly be competitively concerned about rival wizards. In historical settings, they may have been more concerned about clerics burning them at the stake. In one conceived setting, Professor Dumbledore does his best to educate each year's intake of students. But for the muggles, there could have been plenty of spellbooks for budding wizards to access.
In 2e, if I could get a suitable lab up and running by 3rd level to start adding spells from found scrolls into my Spellbook an addition to the ones found in Spellbooks, then I was all for it. If that doesn’t make sense to you, I can’t help you with that. 🤷♂️
I am flabbergasted that you are debating against me when I was trying to support your point in the first place. My mind is boggled. I would throw up my hands and say you’re right, but I don’t want you debating that against me too. I’ma go ahead and unsubscribe from this thread now. Good luck with yer struggles chummer.
The economics of d&d always seem to have favoured the efficiencies of copying spells directly from spellbooks. Unless there was a culture such as that "Wiz had to hoard Spellbooks was to prevent other Rival Wizards from expanding their research labs", I think that spellbooks (especially those containing more commonly sought spells) could proliferate.
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I'm fascinated about what might naturally happen in 5e world's if logic was allowed to run its course.
I previously wrote on how 2nd level artificers might be able to profit considerably by hiring out infusions especially if RAW rules were take at face value to allow artificers to infuse spellwought tattoos.
But, while artificers from second-level can infuse items, wizards from first-level can write spells.
Regarding the Wizards' spellcasting feature we read information related to:
So, basically, you can make copies of your spellbook in your own notation style with a bit of time and 10 gp worth of materials for each level of the copied spell. You could do this "for example, if you want to make a backup copy of your spellbook" but, RAW, that's just an option, not a restriction.
Compare this to the costs, in xanathar's, as mentioned in the section on:
Scribing a Spell Scroll
With time and patience, a spellcaster can transfer a spell to a scroll, creating a spell scroll.
Resources. Scribing a spell scroll takes an amount of time and money related to the level of the spell the character wants to scribe, as shown in the Spell Scroll Costs table. In addition, the character must have proficiency in the Arcana skill and must provide any material components required for the casting of the spell. Moreover, the character must have the spell prepared, or it must be among the character’s known spells, in order to scribe a scroll of that spell.
If the scribed spell is a cantrip, the version on the scroll works as if the caster were 1st level.
Spell Scroll Costs
The text isn't clear about whether the costs mentioned reflect production costs or suggested sales costs.
What is clear is that, when it comes to learning spells, spell scrolls aren't so good:
"...
A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied. When a spell is copied from a spell scroll, the copier must succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check with a DC equal to 10 + the spell's level. If the check succeeds, the spell is successfully copied. Whether the check succeeds or fails, the spell scroll is destroyed.
..."
Why would a wizard scribe a scroll if the purpose was for another wizard to write the spell into their spellbook if they could just write the content straight into a different spellbook (or a different page of the wizard's spellbook) more quickly?
A workweek in downtime is defined as five days (Faerunians, with tenday long weeks, may have an easy life).
So, if the third level spell requiring one workweek was completed in 8 hour a day stints, it would have taken 40 hours. That's enough time to write 13 third level spells into a 50 gp grimoire with material costs of 390 gp with an hour to spare.
Now, does xanathar's 250 gp quote for the cost of a third level spell scroll relate to the production cost or sales cost? Either way, a sales value is suggested, and yet the same content could be produced in a spellbook but quicker. Sure the write up in a grimoire would not contain the power for an additional, as needed, casting of the spell but, if the scroll was to be used as source material for another grimoire, that wouldn't matter. Spellbooks would be able to be knocked out relatively quickly and their contents would not disappear after any attempted copying.
For these reasons, I think that (if logical implications of RAW were followed) grimoires containing commonly desired spells would become a common fixture in trade. Shops and libraries would likely contain them so that they could either be sold or so that deals could be struck with potential customers who just wanted access.
It throws up a bunch of other questions in turn. What enables someone to become a wizard? There's no Intelligence prerequisite: so if it's only a matter of investing money, shouldn't the state be paying for battle wizards to be trained from its brightest youngsters? Why are wizards rare at all?
Why are clerics rare for that matter? Why doesn't everyone do some cleric training and learning Cure Wounds if nothing else?
Why are Commoners just Commoners and have no class? A PC with the same stats as a Commoner can have a class.
In a world where someone skilled might make 2 gp/ day, but it costs 1gp/day to live, saving up the hundreds (or more) of gold it would take to bans Wiz would be prohibitively expensive.
Clerics don’t choose to be clerics, they get chosen.
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The “costs” are the cost to create, the projected sale prices are double those figures. So it costs 25 gp to make a scroll of a 1st-level spell, but it would sell for about 50 gp, a 3rd-level would costs 250 gp to make, sell for approximately 500 gp.
RAW, if a Wizard wants to copy a spell from another Wizard’s Spellbook, they must first copy it onto a scroll and then copy it into their own book. The added expense of first copying it to a scroll is to cover the added effort of figuring out the other Wizard’s notation before attempting to copy it into your own Spellbook. So starting from a scroll is the cheaper option.
In addition, Wizard’s don’t copy spells onto scrolls so other Wizard’s can copy them. Wizard’s write scrolls so they can cast the enscrolled spell later without having to burn a spell slot for it.
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As a player, a first-level character of another class would just need to kill 6 goblins at 50 xp a piece to get the 300 xp to begin wizardry. Unless the player or DM works in more to the story, a spellbook will then magically appear or be retconned into their inventory and much wizarding may start from there.
What it may be like for NPCs could be a completely different thing. Different rules may apply.
A bugbear PC has a reach of 10 ft. A bugbear monster can only reach 5.
How easy is magic to learn for NPCs? As a DM you can decide.
Thanks, I hadn't taken that in.
The Scribing a Spell Scroll text says that "Scribing a spell scroll takes an amount of time and money related to the level of the spell the character wants to scribe, as shown in the Spell Scroll Costs table."
That leaves their projected sales costs really high, and perhaps this may explain why I've not heard people talking about them. They're generally even higher than those quoted in the sane magic item prices listings. Personally, I suspect the sane prices may be generally better balanced.
production|×2 sale|sane.. prices|book ink
If you go with Sane prices then the cost would be half of that price. Personally I think 5 gp a little cheap for a cantrip scroll, and 5k cheap for a 9th-level scroll, but that’s me.
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UM where did you get that RAW? Maybe I am not understanding what you are saying, but there is no requirement to turn it into a scroll first. If you find a spell you can put it directly in your spell book whether you found it in a spell book or a scroll. In fact the RAW implies the norm is straight spell book to spell book as it talks about deciphering the other wizards notes and practicing from it.
Yep, as per my OP:
I don't see any reason why a wizard couldn't write a copy of a spell (in their own notation) on one page of another wizards spellbook.
At this point, the normal Wizards' spellcasting rules could apply.
You could just 'find' the spell on one page of your spellbook and copy it onto another.
Otherwise, instead of going to the trouble and expense of writing a scroll, a wizard could more cost-efficiently go to Grimores 'R' Us (or, perhaps, directly to a quality bookbinder), buy a 50gp spellbook and copy in a third level spell in 3 hours with 30gp worth of ink in the same way as "for example, if you want[ed] to make a backup copy of your spellbook".
It could cost even less for copying spells if permitting school features that allowed gold and time spent to copy a spell (of the relevant school) into your spellbook to be halved.
I guess I was mistaken. I must have misread, misremembered, or misunderstood something, or else I got confused with something else. I could have sworn there was an omission or something that precluded a Wiz from copying directly from another Wizard’s Spellbook for some reason. However, I thought I remembered that there wasn’t anything against scribing a scroll from another Wizard’s spellbook, and that was the workaround. I wonder where in the heck I got that notion!?!
Anyways, thanks all for correcting me.
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Basically, in comparison to the abundance of grimoires in a 5e world, spell scrolls could be incredibly rare. They are "consumable" and contain content that gets consumed with use. In comparison grimoires, in some ways, have greater value, they are relatively cheaply produced and they're permanent. Grimoires could be sourced from wizards who copy spell from spellbooks into another book or they could be left by dead wizards and a supply of spellbooks would gradually build up.
The only thing that might reduce a general supply of spellbooks in an open market is if there were specific collectors gathering copies. Maybe there's some Waterdeep patron collecting spellbooks for a purpose such as to compare wizardly notations. However, any collector collecting grimoires, might also collect spell scrolls - so, to some extent, things might balance out.
Generally, when seeking a reference copy of a spell, a 5e wizard might be far more likely to find it in permanent form in a grimoire than in consumable form on a scroll.
in general, most of what WotC has done to streamline D&D for this edition makes sense. I think it’s a little too streamlined for my tastes, but that’s more to do with quantity than quality. However, there are a few areas where the things they include make less sense than they should because the stuff they omitted was what tied those other things together logically. This happens to be one of those areas IMO.
In older editions a Wizard*1 only learned 1 spells automatically at every level.*2 To expand one’s catalog of spells a Wizard had to either copy them from a preexisting spellbook*3 or else they had to research*4 the magical theory behind a spell scroll they had located, or to invent their own brand new spells. A Wizard’s Spellbook*5 was therefore as much a Wizard’s personal & research journals, and personal treatise on Arcane Theory as their spell index. It was actually RAW that a Wizard’s Spellbook was very finite on pages, therefore a Wizard’s “Spellbook” would inevitably span several volumes like an encyclopedia (if they lived long enough). Wizards would typically only carry an abridged “Traveling Spellbook” when adventuring, resulting in a Wiz only having access to a limited selection of spells from the total list they had learned and copied. Copying a spell required 1 page per spell level, and it cost 50gp/page to copy a pell into a Spellbook, or 100gp/page to copy a spell into a Travel Spellbook.
Honestly though, the costs to copy spells was small change compared to the costs of research. Researching a new spell cost anywhere between 100gp—1,000gp/ spell level if they had a stocked laboratory.That lab cost anywhere from 1,000–10,000gp, to assemble. And after a spell was successfully researched, it still had to be copied into the Wizard’s Spellbook and Travel Spellbook at the standard rates (50gp & 100gp respectively) too. Even if a player didn’t want to research any new spells, they still needed the laboratory to research and decipher spell scrolls (at half the standard research cost) they had found just so they could leans those spells and copy them into their Spellbooks, and they needed it to research the creation of magic items eventually anyway. (But they couldn’t even scribe Spell Scrolls until 9th level. 🙄) One of the ways PCs used to be able to afford the exorbitant costs I have mentioned was by scribing scrolls or brewing potions and then selling them on the open market.
Since WotC has largely streamlined that research into non-existence, and made the sale of magic items taboo (even consumables), we have a situation where Spellbooks should logically be fairly prevalent since it only makes sense for a Wiz to sell an acquired Spellbook once they have copied all the spells into their own. And Spell Scrolls should logically be fairly hard to come by since it only makes sense for a Spellcaster to scribe scrolls they genuinely think they might need, and orly use them when specifically necessary. However, a market flooded with used Spellbooks while Spell Scrolls are dear runs exactly contra to what is indicated by the lore. The whole thing ended up bass-ackwards because WotC kept the books and scrolls, but dropped the Spellbooks’ other uses, the general need for research, and decided to model the Magic Item market after the IR sale of stolen art or illicit substances instead of something more realistic (like the legitimate art market, or antiques). Fortunately, I already implemented houserule/homebrew systems to address those omissions by WotC, and since those omissions caused this circumstance too, I accidentally corrected this discrepancy before I even noticed the contradiction:
I still treat Spellbooks as valuable research and reference materials. To that end, if a PC finds a Wizard’s Spellbook they would benefit from adding it to their own library. After all, creating a magic item in 5e still requires a specific “formula,*6” and an acquired Spellbook would be an excellent place to find such formulas recorded by the book’s former owner when they researched the creation of that item. I also have no problem whatsoever encouraging players to homebrew, so their PCs actually have the opportunity to invent new spells, requiring research. Now, there is a logical reason why spellcasters (not just Wizards) would hold onto Spellbooks they have found rather than divest.
In addition, my campaign world has “Brokers,” purveyors of magic items on a Pawn/Consignment/Auction model. Brokers’ Inventories are not fixed, there is no way for a Broker to order more of something when low on stock. Most of the time Brokers have a variety of consumables and permanent magic items, their rarity determined by the shoppe’s location. For example, a mid-sized town on a well traveled road might have common and uncommon consumables and common permanent items. A large town frequented by Adventurers would likely have consumables from common to uncommon with a chance of a few rare ones, and permanent magic items ranging from common to minor uncommon with a chance of a couple major uncommon items. A small to midsized city would would have common, uncommon, and some rare consumables with a chance for a Very Rare or two; and permanent items including more major uncommon items and a chance for a rare or two. Large cities and capitals would creep a little higher still (I think youse all get the idea). I generate Brokers’ inventories randomly, so rarely do they actually have stuff the party wants. Most of the time PCs use Brokers to offload unwanted stuff they’ve collected, or put out feelers for stuff they are looking for.
(Those feelers are basically an in-character way to submit wish lists to the DM. They might have to make a mission of acquiring said item; or they might (eventually) come across something similar to what they wanted, but not exactly the same. But it’s a way for them to ask without it being unseemly.)
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Ultimately a DM can decide how common wizard spellbooks may be in their world.
The acquisition options for preexisting spells were mostly the same as we have now but with wizards only getting 1 spell automatically at every level instead of 2.
Otherwise, options for the Acquisition of Spells Beyond the 1st Level were:
- to copy spells from the spell books of other wizards, (though "When copying spells, a character must roll to see if the character can learn the spell")
- to do some "Scroll Research" so that "the time and cost required for the research is half normal ... [but with the problem that] the scroll is destroyed—the wizard had to read it aloud to analyze its effects"
- or to "Study with a Mentor" if one can be accessed.
The situation was still one in which spell scrolls would have been consumed in a process of copying use while spellbooks would have remained.
Within a 2e spellbook "Each spell requires a number of pages equal to its level plus 0-5 (1d6-1)" and the costs "For the materials and their preparation, the wizard must pay 50 gp per page. Traveling spell books, which are even more compact, cost 100 gp per page." Spell Book Preparation further specifies "The standard amount of time required to prepare a spell book is one to two days of work per spell level of the spell being entered".
Copying a 2e 1st level spell would have cost 50-300gp into a standard spellbook while copying in a 9th level spell would have cost 450-700gp.
In 5e the rules present:
Copying a Spell into the Book. Copying a 5e 1st level spell monetarily costs 50gp and copying a 9th level spell costs 450gp.
[And when] copy[ing] a spell from your own spellbook into another book— Copying a 5e 1st level spell monetarily costs 10gp and copying a 9th level spell costs 90gp.
The 5e costs of [first time] copying a spell into a spellbook are at the lower end of the 2e standard spellbook copying costs or half of the lower end of the 2e travelling spellbook copying costs. The 5e costs of making additional copies is a 5th of the lower end of the 2e standard spellbook copying costs.
Otherwise, nothing much else has changed. The use of 2e spell scrolls meant that "the time and cost required for the research is half normal" but with the drawback that the content disappeared during the copying process. The contents of d&d grimoire spellbooks have always remained.
You seem to have completely missed my point. Yes, WotC kept the Spellbook part mostly the same, but they chopped of the research part, and with it the laboratory. They also took the sale of magic items like scrolls and potions that used to be commodities, and now it’s a wink-nudge, hint hint, back-alley black market scenario akin to IR illicit arms deals or something.
Everything about the Wiz was all about pouring over dusty old tomes, treatises, and manuscripts. It was called a “Wizard’s Laboratory,” but it was at least half Research Library/Study. To come up with the exorbitantly expensive Lab ASAP (to start researching from scrolls so as to expand one’s repertoire ASAP), the cheapest fastest way was to “liberate” one from a vanquished villain or rival. That included their Spellbooks. And at least in my circle back in the ‘90s, it was expected that more comprehensive and well stocked Labs were better than dinky ones. Ergo, it was common for Wizard players to expand their labs at every convenient opportunity. So there was a legitimate financial reason to hoard every Spellbook a Wiz found since a halfway filled in Spellbook was worth a ton of moolah, so it allowed us to hit that gp quota for a a functional Lab more quickly.
The other reason a Wiz had to hoard Spellbooks was to prevent other Rival Wizards from expanding their research labs. And since pretty much any Wiz that wasn’t a PC or a mentor (or an apprentice) was considered a rival to some degree or other. (Even many of those mentors & apprentices were considered rivals eventually.) So it behooved all Wizards to keep every scrap of paper, parchment, or papyrus they found if it had anything arcane scribbled on it.
In 5e however, as soon as a Wiz has copied everything they want out of a “liberated” Spellbook, they may as well sell it for money to keep on copying spells since the book itself is no longer a useful resource to them any longer. In 2e, there were logical reasons why Spellbooks rarely (if ever) made their way into circulation, namely because other Wizards had them all. Whereas in 5e, the environment leads to there logically being a plethora of used Spellbooks all over the place.
In 2e, one of the best parts of hitting 9th level for a Wizard was that they could start crafting low-level scrolls and basic potions for sale to NPCs as a reasonably lucrative practice during downtime. Selling a simple scroll of protection could earn enough profit to fund the necessary research for that Ring of Whatever the Wiz was hoping to make for themselves. And since they were in reasonably high demand, and since customers had no choice but to go where the product was,…. So a Wiz could spend a li’l downtime (which was common then), create a few scrolls, “two for me, one for sale,” and usually cover the cost of creating all three from the sale of the one. (You know, how economies work.)
Clerics sold healing potions to help generate income for their temples since bake sales hadn’t been invented yet. Selling a few consumable items was just… what we did to pay bills, not unlike my buddy who sells cornhole sets that he makes in his garage for extra money. (You know, the game with the beanbags you gotta toss at the wooden thing and try to get ‘em in the hole? He makes those wooden things and sells them as a cottage side-hustle.)
Now in 5e, selling a scroll is likely to get a person jacked like it’s a drug deal or something. So there used to be a logical explanation for why scrolls and potions were a bit more available, namely economics. But now the environment creates the logic that spell scrolls should be rarer than Spellbooks. It’s bass-ackwards because of the rational logic, and that all is how it is because WotC decided selling off some extra scrolls nowadays is verboten.
So while everything you mentioned in your post is true, it is not applicable to the point I was making. That point being that in 2e there were logical explanations for why Spellbooks were so hard to come by despite each Wizard having to create them in volumes and a travel-sized one too, and logical explanations for why scrolls were easier to come by. Whereas now in 5e, logic dictates that used Spellbooks should be all over the place, and scrolls should be rarer than theor “Rarities” indicate.
TL/DR: Or, in other words, I was agreeing with you:
Are you now pickin’ up what I was puttin’ down?
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DMG_Ch_7_Magic, Spell_Research relates to "the ability to research new spells". A wizard or cleric who was happy with an established range of spells could adopt more conventional methods for the Acquisition of Spells Beyond the 1st Level such as by learning them directly from spellbooks or scrolls.
2e spell scrolls can be scribed by wizards, clerics or specialist geometers.
PLAYER'S OPTION- Spells & Magic
Chapter 7: Spell Research and Magical Item Creation (in this pdf, from p170)
...
Processes and Materials:
Scrolls require three components: some form of paper, a specially-blended ink, and a unique quill. Common paper, parchment, or papyrus maybe used to create the scroll; paper provides a +5% bonus to the success roll, while papyrus inflicts a –5% penalty. All scrolls require a rare quill of some kind. Ink for spells of 1st to 3rd level requires a rare ingredient; ink for spells of 4th to 6th level requires an exotic ingredient; and ink for spells of 7th to 9th level requires a rare and an exotic ingredient. (Use the spell level equivalents noted above for protection scrolls.) Geometers have the special advantage of requiring nothing except common paper or parchment and a rare quill (which can only be used once); the ink is not important for the geometer’s scrolls. Cost and Time: Inscribing a spell onto a scroll takes one day per spell level, while creating a protection scroll takes one full week of uninterrupted work. The only cost incurred is that of obtaining the required materials. Geometers have the same time requirements, but must pay 100 gp per spell level for their materials for spell scrolls, or 300 to 1,800 gp (3d6x100) for protection scrolls. Success or Failure: The base chance to successfully create a scroll is 80%, +1% per character level, –1% per spell level (or equivalent spell level, in the case of protection scrolls).
...
So, basically, you've either got to get rare or exotic materials (presumably at DM's discretion) or, as a specialist, you've got to "pay 100 gp per spell level for their materials for spell scrolls". As I mentioned:
In 2e, if I could get a suitable lab up and running by 3rd level to start adding spells from found scrolls into my Spellbook an addition to the ones found in Spellbooks, then I was all for it. If that doesn’t make sense to you, I can’t help you with that. 🤷♂️
I am flabbergasted that you are debating against me when I was trying to support your point in the first place. My mind is boggled. I would throw up my hands and say you’re right, but I don’t want you debating that against me too. I’ma go ahead and unsubscribe from this thread now. Good luck with yer struggles chummer.
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The economics of d&d always seem to have favoured the efficiencies of copying spells directly from spellbooks. Unless there was a culture such as that "Wiz had to hoard Spellbooks was to prevent other Rival Wizards from expanding their research labs", I think that spellbooks (especially those containing more commonly sought spells) could proliferate.