Sleep is obviously a really powerful spell at low levels. With a good initiative roll and placement, it can end an encounter in one round! But I don't like to take it because it creates a roleplay situation that I just don't want to deal with: unconscious enemies.
I don't really like to play characters who are into cold-blooded killing. It's kinda immersion breaking and it just makes me feel bad. But a lot of people I've played with make characters who are gruesomely pragmatic. Stab that sleeping goblin so he doesn't come after us later. I do get the logic! Especially since sleep only lasts for a minute. They might not want to take him prisoner because that'd be really inconvenient for any number of reasons. But I just can't really bring myself to be that kind of player. I just don't see heroic characters coup de gracing helpless people, even if they were trying to kill us moments before. But I know that's just my personal preference and I'm not going to hold anybody else to my preferred playstyle. So, instead of having to slow down the game arguing with the rogue over whether we should slit the sleeping goblin's throats or tie them up and bring them back to town, I just don't take the spell. Even though I know it's one of the most powerful spells at low level, I just know I'd have more fun chucking a flower pot at the goblin's head with catapult than I would assassinating him in his sleep.
By the way, before you comment, I know that there's a LOT of spells in DnD that'd be war crimes in real life. But at the very least they're fantasy war crimes against active combatants who are trying to fantasy war crime me right back.
Do you guys have any spells you don't take for roleplay reasons, even though you know they're powerful?
This might be a bit of a hot take, but with the single character I got high enough level for, I didn't take Wish. And I can't remember if there was an actual roleplay reason, but typically I don't care to pick it up. In my opinion, it seems that anyone playing a caster strives for 9th level spells to pick up Wish, and I just think that other 9th level spells should be given a chance. Time Stop and Astral Projection offer some great roleplay materials. Gate and Foresight are great for utility. And then there's quite a handful of power damage spells for the battle wizards among us.
So, yeah. Didn't take Wish. And I'm not sure I ever really want to. Though, who knows, with the right story set up.
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This might be a bit of a hot take, but with the single character I got high enough level for, I didn't take Wish. And I can't remember if there was an actual roleplay reason, but typically I don't care to pick it up. In my opinion, it seems that anyone playing a caster strives for 9th level spells to pick up Wish, and I just think that other 9th level spells should be given a chance. Time Stop and Astral Projection offer some great roleplay materials. Gate and Foresight are great for utility. And then there's quite a handful of power damage spells for the battle wizards among us.
So, yeah. Didn't take Wish. And I'm not sure I ever really want to. Though, who knows, with the right story set up.
The reason I think Wish is always considered a "must-take" is that (aside from its reality-warping usage) it give the caster the ability to cast from other classes' lists one a day -- any spell from another class level 1-8. That expansion of flexibility, particularly for the Spells Known classes that don't have a large spell library, tends to always be huge regardless of situation.
This will depend on your group of course, but a DM shouldn't really allow killing in cold blood for neutral characters, and definitely not good ones, not without a really good reason anyway. I feel like alignment is an often overlooked, and very poorly described feature of the game, but if a party goes around murder hoboing then their alignment should shift and there should be consequences for this.
I'm a big fan of games like Dishonored, where leaving a trail of bodies has consequences later on, as in that there is a plague that gets actively worse if you kill too many enemies, but there are other options in D&D; the obvious one is revenge, with friends of the murdered hunting the players down or putting out assassination contracts against them. The more brutal the players are, even if they do it (in their minds) for the right reasons, the more wary people should become of them. You can even go long-term, and have it turn out that the bandits/whatever were actually preventing a much worse crime boss from moving in, or by wiping out a nearby threat you make a town lax in its own defence and it is later wiped out, losing players a place to stay/resupply or even a home base.
TL;DR A good DM punishes players for their bad behaviour. 😉
On the actual subject of Sleep though, as CynnamonV says you could just seek to knock temporarily sleeping enemies fully unconscious rather than kill them; this way you're not limited by the minute duration, and if they didn't see you cast the spell they may not even know you were there at all.
This is where you want the opposite rule to apply; a good DM rewards good behaviour, a clean getaway should have no major consequences, stealth should be rewarded, and with no dead bodies there is less reason for someone to want revenge (if they can even find out that the players were involved).
I've played a lot of campaigns with chaotic groups, but it gets tiring after a while as it means you're never able to use your abilities to their fullest, you never get to come up with a good plan, get away clean etc. and if the DM never punishes you for it it diminishes the challenge in playing well rather than just wracking up a body count. It can be fun having to improvise on the fly when something goes wrong, but that shouldn't be the default plan, so I prefer to use Sleep for getting by enemies rather than killing them.
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Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
My wizard is playing in an evil campaign. We were infiltrating a baron’s keep. Rather then kill the servants in the great hall, and leave a big mess, I used sleep. OK so we didn’t kill them but we did leave them in chairs with their feet on the table and smelling of wine. Sleep doesn’t need to lead to death. At least not at your hand.
My wizard is playing in an evil campaign. We were infiltrating a baron’s keep. Rather then kill the servants in the great hall, and leave a big mess, I used sleep. OK so we didn’t kill them but we did leave them in chairs with their feet on the table and smelling of wine. Sleep doesn’t need to lead to death. At least not at your hand.
Remember to never cast Sleep on the Inn maidens, or else someone else gonna chase you so easily.....
I get it. As someone who majored in Anthropology, tomb robbing and dungeon plundering bothered me when I was new to DND.it is the willful destruction of the archaeological record.
I realize that probably sounds silly if you aren’t into archaeology, but I am. It wasn’t silly to me.
But, I eventually realized the DND is a roleplaying game. It is a lot of improv acting. Actors routinely plays roles that are nothing like them. It isn’t like Anthony Hopkins routinely eats human liver with fava beans! Theater would lose something important if all its characters were good, moral, and ethical. I think someone playing DND misses out on something if they never play morally objectionable characters.
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Sleep is obviously a really powerful spell at low levels. With a good initiative roll and placement, it can end an encounter in one round! But I don't like to take it because it creates a roleplay situation that I just don't want to deal with: unconscious enemies.
I don't really like to play characters who are into cold-blooded killing. It's kinda immersion breaking and it just makes me feel bad. But a lot of people I've played with make characters who are gruesomely pragmatic. Stab that sleeping goblin so he doesn't come after us later. I do get the logic! Especially since sleep only lasts for a minute. They might not want to take him prisoner because that'd be really inconvenient for any number of reasons. But I just can't really bring myself to be that kind of player. I just don't see heroic characters coup de gracing helpless people, even if they were trying to kill us moments before. But I know that's just my personal preference and I'm not going to hold anybody else to my preferred playstyle. So, instead of having to slow down the game arguing with the rogue over whether we should slit the sleeping goblin's throats or tie them up and bring them back to town, I just don't take the spell. Even though I know it's one of the most powerful spells at low level, I just know I'd have more fun chucking a flower pot at the goblin's head with catapult than I would assassinating him in his sleep.
By the way, before you comment, I know that there's a LOT of spells in DnD that'd be war crimes in real life. But at the very least they're fantasy war crimes against active combatants who are trying to fantasy war crime me right back.
Do you guys have any spells you don't take for roleplay reasons, even though you know they're powerful?
This might be a bit of a hot take, but with the single character I got high enough level for, I didn't take Wish. And I can't remember if there was an actual roleplay reason, but typically I don't care to pick it up. In my opinion, it seems that anyone playing a caster strives for 9th level spells to pick up Wish, and I just think that other 9th level spells should be given a chance. Time Stop and Astral Projection offer some great roleplay materials. Gate and Foresight are great for utility. And then there's quite a handful of power damage spells for the battle wizards among us.
So, yeah. Didn't take Wish. And I'm not sure I ever really want to. Though, who knows, with the right story set up.
That makes sense! There's so much cool stuff you can do with a level 9 spell slot, why not mix it up!
The reason I think Wish is always considered a "must-take" is that (aside from its reality-warping usage) it give the caster the ability to cast from other classes' lists one a day -- any spell from another class level 1-8. That expansion of flexibility, particularly for the Spells Known classes that don't have a large spell library, tends to always be huge regardless of situation.
There's a difference between casting sleep on a hostile enemy...who is trying to kill you and stabbing a sleeping goblin who may or may not attack you
And your characters can do non-lethal melee attacks to knock someone unconscious
This will depend on your group of course, but a DM shouldn't really allow killing in cold blood for neutral characters, and definitely not good ones, not without a really good reason anyway. I feel like alignment is an often overlooked, and very poorly described feature of the game, but if a party goes around murder hoboing then their alignment should shift and there should be consequences for this.
I'm a big fan of games like Dishonored, where leaving a trail of bodies has consequences later on, as in that there is a plague that gets actively worse if you kill too many enemies, but there are other options in D&D; the obvious one is revenge, with friends of the murdered hunting the players down or putting out assassination contracts against them. The more brutal the players are, even if they do it (in their minds) for the right reasons, the more wary people should become of them. You can even go long-term, and have it turn out that the bandits/whatever were actually preventing a much worse crime boss from moving in, or by wiping out a nearby threat you make a town lax in its own defence and it is later wiped out, losing players a place to stay/resupply or even a home base.
TL;DR
A good DM punishes players for their bad behaviour. 😉
On the actual subject of Sleep though, as CynnamonV says you could just seek to knock temporarily sleeping enemies fully unconscious rather than kill them; this way you're not limited by the minute duration, and if they didn't see you cast the spell they may not even know you were there at all.
This is where you want the opposite rule to apply; a good DM rewards good behaviour, a clean getaway should have no major consequences, stealth should be rewarded, and with no dead bodies there is less reason for someone to want revenge (if they can even find out that the players were involved).
I've played a lot of campaigns with chaotic groups, but it gets tiring after a while as it means you're never able to use your abilities to their fullest, you never get to come up with a good plan, get away clean etc. and if the DM never punishes you for it it diminishes the challenge in playing well rather than just wracking up a body count. It can be fun having to improvise on the fly when something goes wrong, but that shouldn't be the default plan, so I prefer to use Sleep for getting by enemies rather than killing them.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
My wizard is playing in an evil campaign. We were infiltrating a baron’s keep. Rather then kill the servants in the great hall, and leave a big mess, I used sleep. OK so we didn’t kill them but we did leave them in chairs with their feet on the table and smelling of wine. Sleep doesn’t need to lead to death. At least not at your hand.
Remember to never cast Sleep on the Inn maidens, or else someone else gonna chase you so easily.....
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
I get it. As someone who majored in Anthropology, tomb robbing and dungeon plundering bothered me when I was new to DND.it is the willful destruction of the archaeological record.
I realize that probably sounds silly if you aren’t into archaeology, but I am. It wasn’t silly to me.
But, I eventually realized the DND is a roleplaying game. It is a lot of improv acting. Actors routinely plays roles that are nothing like them. It isn’t like Anthony Hopkins routinely eats human liver with fava beans! Theater would lose something important if all its characters were good, moral, and ethical. I think someone playing DND misses out on something if they never play morally objectionable characters.