I am about to play my first wizard and when I looked into the rules about the spellbooks and the spell list.........the first though that hit me, was damn the why does anybody play wizards? The druids does a much much better job as the spellcaster of the group. This is how i read it:
Druids get access to all spells directly - wizard dont (you need to have found 40+ sources at level 5 to have the same amount of spells in the spellbook and they need to magically be spread out among to cover as much situations as a for the druids)
Druids have more spells prepared because of the bonuses from the circles and more cantrips........
Druids spell list is more flexible until the wizard start having more spells than the druids or something like that. But you could make the argument that since there is no healing in a wizards spellbook it the druids is better even then.
Druids are not completely useless in combat when all spellslots are expended because the druid can turn into a bear and wear armor and decent weapons.
Until high levels the druid can cast more spells per day because of the bonus cast on cooldowns.
The only area that i have found so far is that the wizards has a little better damage in their spells but in that case the sorcerer does that better anyways.
Am I missing something here, because unless you find an absurd amount of spells sources at early levels the wizard sucks pretty badly (a bit harsh). This really confuses me :/.
Wizards have the largest spell list in the game by far. The Sorcerer's spell list is almost strictly a subset of the Wizard's. Neither Sorcerers nor Druids get Find Familiar. Druids don't get Shield or Counterspell.
Wizards can cast ritual spells without having them prepared. Druids need to prepare their rituals, and Sorcerers can't cast rituals at all.
Wizards can prepare more spells than Sorcerers can learn. Sorcerers can't change their known spells daily.
Not all Druids use Circle of the Land. You didn't consider the features of any of the wizard's 10 Arcane Traditions in your comparison.
Druids and wizards have vastly different stories.
Wizards do just fine with their 6 initial spells and 2 spells per level.
Thank you. I couple of points that i missed there. For the record i was talking about a druid with circle of the land and not circle of the moon since that latter one ofc is a completely different build. The wizard will ofc have spells that the druid doesnt but that goes the other way around as well. Imo there are only a few gaps which one or the other class cant cover with other spells. I have however noticed that some of the wizards spells are a bit more powerful than the druid equivalent, but not that much. Is this what you pay for?
Ofc the wizards spell list is larger than the druids (almost twice as big) but in the campaigns i have played the amount of spell sources has been few and far between. I can definitely see the potential for a late game wizard being more powerful than a Druid.
The ritual difference is a good point and the backstory options is very important as well.
What did I miss with lvl 10 arcane traditions feature? Most of them are good but not any game changers, from what i can tell? Please educate me if Im reading it wrong.
Ofc they do fine with only 8 spells but it makes them a lot less flexible.
There are 18 cantrips available for a Druid - 10 of these can also be cast by a Wizard leaving only 8 cantrips a Druid can get a Wizard cannot.
There are 29 cantrips available for a Wizard - 10 of these can also be cast by a Druid leaving 19 cantrips a Wizard can get which a Druid cannot.
There are 132 spells of 1st level or higher available for a Druid - 69 of these can also be cast by a Wizard leaving only 63 spells a Druid can cast that a Wizard cannot.
There are 282 spells of 1st level or higher available for a Wizard - 69 of these can also be cast by a Druid leaving 213 spells available for a Wizard which a Druid cannot cast.
Exceptions:
The Circle of Dreams Druid Subclass allows access to 2 spells from the Wizard's spell list it normally cannot cast and allows the druid to cast one of them once per day: they cannot be added to prepared spells or cast any other way.
The Circle of Spores Druid Subclass (not official, UA) allows access to 1 cantrip and 5 spells from the Wizard spell list it could not otherwise access.
The Circle of the Moon Druid Sublass grants access to 1 wizard spell as an At-Will ability.
The Circle of the Land may grant access to spells not normally on the Druid spell list, as follows:
~ Arctic, Coast, Mountain and Swamp: 3 spells also found on Wizard's spell list. ~ Desert: 3 spells only 2 of which comes from Wizard's spell list. ~ Forest: 2 spells only 1 of which comes from Wizard's spell list. ~ Grassland: 4 spells only 1 of which comes from Wizard's spell list. ~ Underdark: 6 spells also found on Wizard's spell list.
The only Wizard subclass that allows access to non-wizard spells is School of Invention but you cannot choose them or prepare them and there are very few with only a small chance of casting them, so I will not count those.
Druids do have good spells but the spells for a Wizard offer much greater variety from summoning servants (Unseen Servant, Tiny Servant) altering people's memories (Modify Memory), creating mansions out of thin air (Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion), creating demiplanes (Demiplane), stopping time (Time Stop), turning enemies into stone potentially forever (Flesh to Stone), destroying whole towns with but a wave of a hand (Meteor Swarm) and even altering all of reality itself (Wish) - the latter also allowing them to replicate any spell of 8th level or lower from the Druid's, or any, spell list. Want to set a magical trap that disintegates an intruder not knowing the password? Why a Glyph of Warding charged with a Disintegrate spell will do just that! Reached a chasm with no bridge? Why not just create one with Fabricate spell? Isn't old age or that random death a nuisance, why not use Clone and say "**** you, death" as you embrace near-immortality! That pesky Archdruid's Infinite Wild Shaping bothering you? Just True Polymorph them and have them be stuck as a rabbit forever: problem solved!
The level of variety, versatility and utility Wizards can achieve is far beyond the scope of anything Druids can ever dream of. Or almost any class for that matter. They are not supposed to be the battle-mages Druids can be, they're supposed to be the "I have a spell for that" people. And they pretty much do.
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Thank you Cyber3rM1nd. I get it now that wizards can get a lot more powerful at the higher levels and the longer he is allowed to adventure. The main thing is getting good spells in the spell book.
I had to high expectations on the wizard class from the beginning and was a bit colored by the few campaigns I have played so far (in which a druid had done much better because of the nature of the campaigns).
A big thing too -- a DM can make or break a Wizard. Yeah, you'll do just fine if your DM doesn't throw you any bones, but if you go shopping for books and scrolls and clear dungeon after lair after tower and don't get any scrolls or spellbooks, it's gonna suck. If there's a Wizard in the game, the DM has to keep that in mind and plan loot accordingly. The Fighter wants magical weapons and armor and the wizard wants spells.
A big thing too -- a DM can make or break a Wizard. Yeah, you'll do just fine if your DM doesn't throw you any bones, but if you go shopping for books and scrolls and clear dungeon after lair after tower and don't get any scrolls or spellbooks, it's gonna suck. If there's a Wizard in the game, the DM has to keep that in mind and plan loot accordingly. The Fighter wants magical weapons and armor and the wizard wants spells.
Yes this is a very big point and what has happened in the campaigns I have played, we haven't found many sources of spells at all.
Wizards can take a feat to access healing spells. Or they can do what I did when I played a monk and buy potions of healing for when they need healing.
Im playing a Druid right now and I’m considering the feat to let me cast 2 wizard Cantrips and one 1st level wizard spell.
Yes this is a very big point and what has happened in the campaigns I have played, we haven't found many sources of spells at all.
If that's what's going on, talk with your DM. Why doesn't he have more scrolls? Is he intentionally trying to limit the wizard's growth potential, or is this an accident? When your group fights an evil wizard, where is that guy's spell book? Can you spend time during downtime to try and find people who may have books of arcane lore that may include spells?
If you're playing a wizard, and your DM isn't throwing out a scroll every 2/3 adventures, you need to work on that. I'm currently running Princes of the Apocalypse and I think our wizard is getting a scroll (or 2!) every other session.
I wish the wizard had at least one healing option.
There are a couple: False Life is sorta like pre-healing; Vampiric Touch heals you; the level 2 School of Necromancy feature, Grim Harvest, heals you; Life Transference heals others; Enervation heals you; Soul Cage can be used to heal yourself; and, of course, Wish can be used to duplicate any healing spell level 8 or under.
Seems like the gradual proliferation of magic ability for other classes and also some races has made the wizard a poor cousin. Bards have more power. The sorcerer is also pretty feeble.
I'd prefer fewer magic user classes, make the warlock etc subsets of the wizard, and druids & paladins a subset of cleric, and basically no magic for other classes. That way magic items gain value.
Seems like the gradual proliferation of magic ability for other classes and also some races has made the wizard a poor cousin. Bards have more power. The sorcerer is also pretty feeble.
I'd prefer fewer magic user classes, make the warlock etc subsets of the wizard, and druids & paladins a subset of cleric, and basically no magic for other classes. That way magic items gain value.
What?
I'm going to agree with InquisitiveCoder, and take it a step further.
The "default" D&D setting I believe is Forgotten Realms. Which is a relatively high magic setting, that said the Designers have scaled the proliferation of magic item way back in this edition. It's fine that you prefer fewer magic user classes, but that's evidently not the intent of this edition.
I honestly don't know how you're ideas would work, having warlock be a subclass of Wizard and Druid and Paladin a subclass of Cleric. That's fine to work on those rules and built them in your homebrew campaign setting, but I think InquisitiveCoder and I would agree that the wizard and sorcerer are neither better or inferior to bard or warlock.
I have only played an Abjuration Wizard to 20 so I can only speak of that subclass and I can tell you that without a doubt he is not even close to underpowered. I can counterspell better than any other class, resist spells better than any other class, and have more survivability with the ward than most casters. Wish is the most power spell in game which puts arcane caster just a notch above others who can't cast it. Bards are great but they have a very narrow ability to cast and are very handcuffed offensively (which is why my bard has 2 levels of warlock and 12 of bard currently). Granted, the capstone is super weak so I suggest taking a one level dip somewhere else. I went with rogue for expertise so his passive investigation is 32 and has a +18 to arcana checks. Wizards are super versatile and can do a little bit of everything. Throw in a demiplane with a bunch of wards and you have a demigod :)
At higher levels the Wizard is powerful, but at lower levels they have their thunderclap stolen. After two rounds you are basically a guy with 3 cantrips and a dagger.
That's why when I play a wizard I start with spells that have longer durations. Fog Cloud for example can impact combat far more than it looks on the surface if it's cast intelligently.
The "default" D&D setting I believe is Forgotten Realms. Which is a relatively high magic setting, that said the Designers have scaled the proliferation of magic item way back in this edition.
FR is the de facto setting since it's the one pushed the hardest in adventure books and used for Adventurer's League, but officiallythere is no default world. The Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide and Monster Manual aren't specific to the Forgotten Realms. The official setting for D&D is the multiverse.
At higher levels the Wizard is powerful, but at lower levels they have their thunderclap stolen. After two rounds you are basically a guy with 3 cantrips and a dagger.
If you want to boil the class down to a bag of spell slots and ignore the rest of their features like:
Ritual casting anything in their spellbook, prepared or not
Then yeah they're just a guy with a few cantrips and a dagger, same as most other full spellcasters.
Cantrips are a pretty good selling point anyways. Mage Hand is handy in all sorts of ways and being able to produce magic damage on demand at low levels when the party is unlikely to have a ton of magic weapons also has value.
I am about to play my first wizard and when I looked into the rules about the spellbooks and the spell list.........the first though that hit me, was damn the why does anybody play wizards? The druids does a much much better job as the spellcaster of the group. This is how i read it:
The only area that i have found so far is that the wizards has a little better damage in their spells but in that case the sorcerer does that better anyways.
Am I missing something here, because unless you find an absurd amount of spells sources at early levels the wizard sucks pretty badly (a bit harsh). This really confuses me :/.
Wizards have the largest spell list in the game by far. The Sorcerer's spell list is almost strictly a subset of the Wizard's. Neither Sorcerers nor Druids get Find Familiar. Druids don't get Shield or Counterspell.
Wizards can cast ritual spells without having them prepared. Druids need to prepare their rituals, and Sorcerers can't cast rituals at all.
Wizards can prepare more spells than Sorcerers can learn. Sorcerers can't change their known spells daily.
Not all Druids use Circle of the Land. You didn't consider the features of any of the wizard's 10 Arcane Traditions in your comparison.
Druids and wizards have vastly different stories.
Wizards do just fine with their 6 initial spells and 2 spells per level.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Thank you. I couple of points that i missed there. For the record i was talking about a druid with circle of the land and not circle of the moon since that latter one ofc is a completely different build. The wizard will ofc have spells that the druid doesnt but that goes the other way around as well. Imo there are only a few gaps which one or the other class cant cover with other spells. I have however noticed that some of the wizards spells are a bit more powerful than the druid equivalent, but not that much. Is this what you pay for?
Ofc the wizards spell list is larger than the druids (almost twice as big) but in the campaigns i have played the amount of spell sources has been few and far between. I can definitely see the potential for a late game wizard being more powerful than a Druid.
The ritual difference is a good point and the backstory options is very important as well.
What did I miss with lvl 10 arcane traditions feature? Most of them are good but not any game changers, from what i can tell? Please educate me if Im reading it wrong.
Ofc they do fine with only 8 spells but it makes them a lot less flexible.
"Ofc" is not a word.
There are 18 cantrips available for a Druid - 10 of these can also be cast by a Wizard leaving only 8 cantrips a Druid can get a Wizard cannot.
There are 29 cantrips available for a Wizard - 10 of these can also be cast by a Druid leaving 19 cantrips a Wizard can get which a Druid cannot.
There are 132 spells of 1st level or higher available for a Druid - 69 of these can also be cast by a Wizard leaving only 63 spells a Druid can cast that a Wizard cannot.
There are 282 spells of 1st level or higher available for a Wizard - 69 of these can also be cast by a Druid leaving 213 spells available for a Wizard which a Druid cannot cast.
Exceptions:
The Circle of Dreams Druid Subclass allows access to 2 spells from the Wizard's spell list it normally cannot cast and allows the druid to cast one of them once per day: they cannot be added to prepared spells or cast any other way.
The Circle of Spores Druid Subclass (not official, UA) allows access to 1 cantrip and 5 spells from the Wizard spell list it could not otherwise access.
The Circle of the Moon Druid Sublass grants access to 1 wizard spell as an At-Will ability.
The Circle of the Land may grant access to spells not normally on the Druid spell list, as follows:
~ Arctic, Coast, Mountain and Swamp: 3 spells also found on Wizard's spell list.
~ Desert: 3 spells only 2 of which comes from Wizard's spell list.
~ Forest: 2 spells only 1 of which comes from Wizard's spell list.
~ Grassland: 4 spells only 1 of which comes from Wizard's spell list.
~ Underdark: 6 spells also found on Wizard's spell list.
The only Wizard subclass that allows access to non-wizard spells is School of Invention but you cannot choose them or prepare them and there are very few with only a small chance of casting them, so I will not count those.
Druids do have good spells but the spells for a Wizard offer much greater variety from summoning servants (Unseen Servant, Tiny Servant) altering people's memories (Modify Memory), creating mansions out of thin air (Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion), creating demiplanes (Demiplane), stopping time (Time Stop), turning enemies into stone potentially forever (Flesh to Stone), destroying whole towns with but a wave of a hand (Meteor Swarm) and even altering all of reality itself (Wish) - the latter also allowing them to replicate any spell of 8th level or lower from the Druid's, or any, spell list. Want to set a magical trap that disintegates an intruder not knowing the password? Why a Glyph of Warding charged with a Disintegrate spell will do just that! Reached a chasm with no bridge? Why not just create one with Fabricate spell? Isn't old age or that random death a nuisance, why not use Clone and say "**** you, death" as you embrace near-immortality! That pesky Archdruid's Infinite Wild Shaping bothering you? Just True Polymorph them and have them be stuck as a rabbit forever: problem solved!
The level of variety, versatility and utility Wizards can achieve is far beyond the scope of anything Druids can ever dream of. Or almost any class for that matter. They are not supposed to be the battle-mages Druids can be, they're supposed to be the "I have a spell for that" people. And they pretty much do.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
If by “bonus cast on cool downs” you mean the land druid’s Natural Recovery, wizards have Arcane Recovery. Same thing with a different name.
Running out of spell slots isn’t really a problem. Wizard cantrips generally cause more damage and have much greater range.
And wizards have mage hand. If I was a Druid I’d take the feat Magic Initiate for that and Find Familiar.
If you really like the druid, play a druid. Everybody likes having another healer in the group.
Thank you Cyber3rM1nd. I get it now that wizards can get a lot more powerful at the higher levels and the longer he is allowed to adventure. The main thing is getting good spells in the spell book.
I had to high expectations on the wizard class from the beginning and was a bit colored by the few campaigns I have played so far (in which a druid had done much better because of the nature of the campaigns).
A big thing too -- a DM can make or break a Wizard. Yeah, you'll do just fine if your DM doesn't throw you any bones, but if you go shopping for books and scrolls and clear dungeon after lair after tower and don't get any scrolls or spellbooks, it's gonna suck. If there's a Wizard in the game, the DM has to keep that in mind and plan loot accordingly. The Fighter wants magical weapons and armor and the wizard wants spells.
Yes this is a very big point and what has happened in the campaigns I have played, we haven't found many sources of spells at all.
I wish the wizard had at least one healing option.
Dril-lvl 4 Wizard-Forest Gnome-The Bounders https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/HumbleHubris86/characters/3314145
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Wizards can take a feat to access healing spells. Or they can do what I did when I played a monk and buy potions of healing for when they need healing.
Im playing a Druid right now and I’m considering the feat to let me cast 2 wizard Cantrips and one 1st level wizard spell.
Professional computer geek
If that's what's going on, talk with your DM. Why doesn't he have more scrolls? Is he intentionally trying to limit the wizard's growth potential, or is this an accident? When your group fights an evil wizard, where is that guy's spell book? Can you spend time during downtime to try and find people who may have books of arcane lore that may include spells?
If you're playing a wizard, and your DM isn't throwing out a scroll every 2/3 adventures, you need to work on that. I'm currently running Princes of the Apocalypse and I think our wizard is getting a scroll (or 2!) every other session.
There are a couple: False Life is sorta like pre-healing; Vampiric Touch heals you; the level 2 School of Necromancy feature, Grim Harvest, heals you; Life Transference heals others; Enervation heals you; Soul Cage can be used to heal yourself; and, of course, Wish can be used to duplicate any healing spell level 8 or under.
Seems like the gradual proliferation of magic ability for other classes and also some races has made the wizard a poor cousin. Bards have more power. The sorcerer is also pretty feeble.
I'd prefer fewer magic user classes, make the warlock etc subsets of the wizard, and druids & paladins a subset of cleric, and basically no magic for other classes. That way magic items gain value.
What?
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I'm going to agree with InquisitiveCoder, and take it a step further.
The "default" D&D setting I believe is Forgotten Realms. Which is a relatively high magic setting, that said the Designers have scaled the proliferation of magic item way back in this edition.
It's fine that you prefer fewer magic user classes, but that's evidently not the intent of this edition.
I honestly don't know how you're ideas would work, having warlock be a subclass of Wizard and Druid and Paladin a subclass of Cleric. That's fine to work on those rules and built them in your homebrew campaign setting, but I think InquisitiveCoder and I would agree that the wizard and sorcerer are neither better or inferior to bard or warlock.
Once upon a time there was a magic user, a cleric, a fighter and a thief. Then along came an assassin.
I have only played an Abjuration Wizard to 20 so I can only speak of that subclass and I can tell you that without a doubt he is not even close to underpowered. I can counterspell better than any other class, resist spells better than any other class, and have more survivability with the ward than most casters. Wish is the most power spell in game which puts arcane caster just a notch above others who can't cast it. Bards are great but they have a very narrow ability to cast and are very handcuffed offensively (which is why my bard has 2 levels of warlock and 12 of bard currently). Granted, the capstone is super weak so I suggest taking a one level dip somewhere else. I went with rogue for expertise so his passive investigation is 32 and has a +18 to arcana checks. Wizards are super versatile and can do a little bit of everything. Throw in a demiplane with a bunch of wards and you have a demigod :)
At higher levels the Wizard is powerful, but at lower levels they have their thunderclap stolen. After two rounds you are basically a guy with 3 cantrips and a dagger.
That's why when I play a wizard I start with spells that have longer durations. Fog Cloud for example can impact combat far more than it looks on the surface if it's cast intelligently.
Professional computer geek
FR is the de facto setting since it's the one pushed the hardest in adventure books and used for Adventurer's League, but officially there is no default world. The Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide and Monster Manual aren't specific to the Forgotten Realms. The official setting for D&D is the multiverse.
If you want to boil the class down to a bag of spell slots and ignore the rest of their features like:
Then yeah they're just a guy with a few cantrips and a dagger, same as most other full spellcasters.
Cantrips are a pretty good selling point anyways. Mage Hand is handy in all sorts of ways and being able to produce magic damage on demand at low levels when the party is unlikely to have a ton of magic weapons also has value.
The Forum Infestation (TM)