I have played through 14th level. I started with Shocking Grasp and Fire Bolt. Used Shocking Grasp ONCE.
Partly because I took Elemental Adept (Fire) - so resistant creatures took full damage. And partially because I learned Misty Step.
Someone got close enough for me to want to use Shocking Grasp, I Misty Stepped away.
When Something was immune to Fire, I used leveled spells.
Since Misty Step is a bonus spell and shocking Grasp is a cantrip. You could have done both in the same turn if you wanted to.
So you still could have used it more but chose not to for various reason.
Though misty Step is completely Valid. it's something i'd done a number of times myself. Using shocking grasp, hopefully with advantage, would have usually been similar to using firebolt after the misty step.
I have played through 14th level. I started with Shocking Grasp and Fire Bolt. Used Shocking Grasp ONCE.
Partly because I took Elemental Adept (Fire) - so resistant creatures took full damage. And partially because I learned Misty Step.
Someone got close enough for me to want to use Shocking Grasp, I Misty Stepped away.
When Something was immune to Fire, I used leveled spells.
Since Misty Step is a bonus spell and shocking Grasp is a cantrip. You could have done both in the same turn if you wanted to.
So you still could have used it more but chose not to for various reason.
Though misty Step is completely Valid. it's something i'd done a number of times myself. Using shocking grasp, hopefully with advantage, would have usually been similar to using firebolt after the misty step.
I think you are missing their point. With misty step he just misty stepped and then used the superior fire bolt. The main point of shocking grasp is no disadvantage in melee and it allows you to escape melee without getting an AoO. Misty step handled both of those, so just use the firebolt.
Don't get me wrong I'm not sure its the best choice. Shocking grasp to see if you need to misty step in the first place might be better. But that leaves you 30 feet away which might not solve things. misty step, move, firebolt gives you more distance and he apparently had a feat that made firebolt better. But I suspect getting caught in melee was infrequent enough for him the loss of a 2nd level speel slot was not a big enough deal to make shocking grasp worth it.
I have played through 14th level. I started with Shocking Grasp and Fire Bolt. Used Shocking Grasp ONCE.
Partly because I took Elemental Adept (Fire) - so resistant creatures took full damage. And partially because I learned Misty Step.
Someone got close enough for me to want to use Shocking Grasp, I Misty Stepped away.
When Something was immune to Fire, I used leveled spells.
Since Misty Step is a bonus spell and shocking Grasp is a cantrip. You could have done both in the same turn if you wanted to.
So you still could have used it more but chose not to for various reason.
Though misty Step is completely Valid. it's something i'd done a number of times myself. Using shocking grasp, hopefully with advantage, would have usually been similar to using firebolt after the misty step.
I think you are missing their point. With misty step he just misty stepped and then used the superior fire bolt. The main point of shocking grasp is no disadvantage in melee and it allows you to escape melee without getting an AoO. Misty step handled both of those, so just use the firebolt.
Don't get me wrong I'm not sure its the best choice. Shocking grasp to see if you need to misty step in the first place might be better. But that leaves you 30 feet away which might not solve things. misty step, move, firebolt gives you more distance and he apparently had a feat that made firebolt better. But I suspect getting caught in melee was infrequent enough for him the loss of a 2nd level speel slot was not a big enough deal to make shocking grasp worth it.
firebolt is not superior. Unless you have one very specific and very narrow ciew of superior. Damage when Fire Resistance is not involved. And it's minor at best since Firebolt is d10's and Shocking grasp is d8's. Which means even at 17th level your looking at an average damage difference of 4 damage. and a max damage difference of 8 damage. There isn't even a difference by having certain subclasses because they are both Evocation Spells. So subclass bonuses that would apply to one would apply to the other.
Also. Shocking Grasp and then Misty STepping still leaves you the option of moving if you wish to be certain that you are far enough away. It is not costing you any more resources or action economy than using Firebolt does. And Shocking Grasp has the advantage of doing things like allowing other people to move away... allowing skirmishers to attack them and move away without reprisal and other things of this nature that a group can take advantage of.
I have played through 14th level. I started with Shocking Grasp and Fire Bolt. Used Shocking Grasp ONCE.
Partly because I took Elemental Adept (Fire) - so resistant creatures took full damage. And partially because I learned Misty Step.
Someone got close enough for me to want to use Shocking Grasp, I Misty Stepped away.
When Something was immune to Fire, I used leveled spells.
Since Misty Step is a bonus spell and shocking Grasp is a cantrip. You could have done both in the same turn if you wanted to.
So you still could have used it more but chose not to for various reason.
Though misty Step is completely Valid. it's something i'd done a number of times myself. Using shocking grasp, hopefully with advantage, would have usually been similar to using firebolt after the misty step.
I think you are missing their point. With misty step he just misty stepped and then used the superior fire bolt. The main point of shocking grasp is no disadvantage in melee and it allows you to escape melee without getting an AoO. Misty step handled both of those, so just use the firebolt.
Don't get me wrong I'm not sure its the best choice. Shocking grasp to see if you need to misty step in the first place might be better. But that leaves you 30 feet away which might not solve things. misty step, move, firebolt gives you more distance and he apparently had a feat that made firebolt better. But I suspect getting caught in melee was infrequent enough for him the loss of a 2nd level speel slot was not a big enough deal to make shocking grasp worth it.
firebolt is not superior. Unless you have one very specific and very narrow ciew of superior. Damage when Fire Resistance is not involved. And it's minor at best since Firebolt is d10's and Shocking grasp is d8's. Which means even at 17th level your looking at an average damage difference of 4 damage. and a max damage difference of 8 damage. There isn't even a difference by having certain subclasses because they are both Evocation Spells. So subclass bonuses that would apply to one would apply to the other.
Also. Shocking Grasp and then Misty STepping still leaves you the option of moving if you wish to be certain that you are far enough away. It is not costing you any more resources or action economy than using Firebolt does. And Shocking Grasp has the advantage of doing things like allowing other people to move away... allowing skirmishers to attack them and move away without reprisal and other things of this nature that a group can take advantage of.
But he took elemental adept fire, so shocking grasp will have to deal with resistance more often. And while its not huge all his damage rolls of 1 are considered a 2. And even without that feat in the majority of situations once you've nullified the close combat advantage it just is better, d10 is better than d8. While fire resist may be the most common resist it is far from common. And when you narrow it down to enemies that closed with the wizard in melee its even rarer. Outside some rare reaction special ability the one you are concerned with is the AoO and misty step handled that. In some very specific sets of circumstances getting them to still lose their reaction might be warranted but if it comes up often enough in a campaign to matter i kind of doubt.
I have played through 14th level. I started with Shocking Grasp and Fire Bolt. Used Shocking Grasp ONCE.
Partly because I took Elemental Adept (Fire) - so resistant creatures took full damage. And partially because I learned Misty Step.
Someone got close enough for me to want to use Shocking Grasp, I Misty Stepped away.
When Something was immune to Fire, I used leveled spells.
Since Misty Step is a bonus spell and shocking Grasp is a cantrip. You could have done both in the same turn if you wanted to.
So you still could have used it more but chose not to for various reason.
Though misty Step is completely Valid. it's something i'd done a number of times myself. Using shocking grasp, hopefully with advantage, would have usually been similar to using firebolt after the misty step.
I think you are missing their point. With misty step he just misty stepped and then used the superior fire bolt. The main point of shocking grasp is no disadvantage in melee and it allows you to escape melee without getting an AoO. Misty step handled both of those, so just use the firebolt.
Don't get me wrong I'm not sure its the best choice. Shocking grasp to see if you need to misty step in the first place might be better. But that leaves you 30 feet away which might not solve things. misty step, move, firebolt gives you more distance and he apparently had a feat that made firebolt better. But I suspect getting caught in melee was infrequent enough for him the loss of a 2nd level speel slot was not a big enough deal to make shocking grasp worth it.
firebolt is not superior. Unless you have one very specific and very narrow ciew of superior. Damage when Fire Resistance is not involved. And it's minor at best since Firebolt is d10's and Shocking grasp is d8's. Which means even at 17th level your looking at an average damage difference of 4 damage. and a max damage difference of 8 damage. There isn't even a difference by having certain subclasses because they are both Evocation Spells. So subclass bonuses that would apply to one would apply to the other.
Also. Shocking Grasp and then Misty STepping still leaves you the option of moving if you wish to be certain that you are far enough away. It is not costing you any more resources or action economy than using Firebolt does. And Shocking Grasp has the advantage of doing things like allowing other people to move away... allowing skirmishers to attack them and move away without reprisal and other things of this nature that a group can take advantage of.
But he took elemental adept fire, so shocking grasp will have to deal with resistance more often. And while its not huge all his damage rolls of 1 are considered a 2. And even without that feat in the majority of situations once you've nullified the close combat advantage it just is better, d10 is better than d8. While fire resist may be the most common resist it is far from common. And when you narrow it down to enemies that closed with the wizard in melee its even rarer. Outside some rare reaction special ability the one you are concerned with is the AoO and misty step handled that. In some very specific sets of circumstances getting them to still lose their reaction might be warranted but if it comes up often enough in a campaign to matter i kind of doubt.
That turning a 1 into a 2 is worth about 1dps more on average. Doesn't change the overall maximum, and if Fire resist your saying isn't that common as the most common resistance then lightning being resisted is even less of an issue because it's far less than fire resistance comes up. So again. the difference is in only one very narrow category. That of Damage. Which is not the be all and end all of comparisons. Overall it's a middling to poor comparison with everything else that might be possible in the game. Including other abilities indirectly leading to more damage done by the party over all.
Your also white rooming badly. Because your accepting that Misty STep gets around AoO for the character. But your ignoring the fact that Shocking Grasp gets around AoO's for the entire party which can lead to a variety of different advantages depending on the situation. The rider ability of Shocking grasp being valuable actually comes up in a variety of combat situations to be viable. Including Ambushes, Tight Areas, attackers threatening squishy characters, Needing an ally to get away from a BBEG that is locking them down, etc. you doubt these things because your not thinking about them. Your focused on the white room math and the damage done and scenerio's that come to your mind which are focusing mostly on damage. But the reality is that these kinds of things come up in actual campaigns with parties quite a lot. There is a reason that shutting down AoO's is considered a strong ability in other places such as Mobility and on the Swashbuckler. The same reasons apply to Shocking Grasp.
You can also use Shocking Grasp through a Familiar (or similar) which means the Caster (assuming a Wizard or a Artificer) could straight up stay at range, deliver a Shocking Grasp via the Familiar and set up the rest of the party to abuse the hell out of an enemy that can no longer make reactions until the start of it's next turn.
Firebolt is amazing in that it is one of the few, if only, Cantrips that can be legally allowed to target anything other than a Creature, but honestly, allowing the player to target whatever they want seems more logical than "No, this spell can only be used on a living being. Eat dirt." whenever the players come up with an inventive or creative use for their abilities and gear.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Since Misty Step is a bonus spell and shocking Grasp is a cantrip. You could have done both in the same turn if you wanted to.
So you still could have used it more but chose not to for various reason.
Though misty Step is completely Valid. it's something i'd done a number of times myself. Using shocking grasp, hopefully with advantage, would have usually been similar to using firebolt after the misty step.
I think you are missing their point. With misty step he just misty stepped and then used the superior fire bolt. The main point of shocking grasp is no disadvantage in melee and it allows you to escape melee without getting an AoO. Misty step handled both of those, so just use the firebolt.
Don't get me wrong I'm not sure its the best choice. Shocking grasp to see if you need to misty step in the first place might be better. But that leaves you 30 feet away which might not solve things. misty step, move, firebolt gives you more distance and he apparently had a feat that made firebolt better. But I suspect getting caught in melee was infrequent enough for him the loss of a 2nd level speel slot was not a big enough deal to make shocking grasp worth it.
firebolt is not superior. Unless you have one very specific and very narrow ciew of superior. Damage when Fire Resistance is not involved. And it's minor at best since Firebolt is d10's and Shocking grasp is d8's. Which means even at 17th level your looking at an average damage difference of 4 damage. and a max damage difference of 8 damage. There isn't even a difference by having certain subclasses because they are both Evocation Spells. So subclass bonuses that would apply to one would apply to the other.
Also. Shocking Grasp and then Misty STepping still leaves you the option of moving if you wish to be certain that you are far enough away. It is not costing you any more resources or action economy than using Firebolt does. And Shocking Grasp has the advantage of doing things like allowing other people to move away... allowing skirmishers to attack them and move away without reprisal and other things of this nature that a group can take advantage of.
But he took elemental adept fire, so shocking grasp will have to deal with resistance more often. And while its not huge all his damage rolls of 1 are considered a 2. And even without that feat in the majority of situations once you've nullified the close combat advantage it just is better, d10 is better than d8. While fire resist may be the most common resist it is far from common. And when you narrow it down to enemies that closed with the wizard in melee its even rarer. Outside some rare reaction special ability the one you are concerned with is the AoO and misty step handled that. In some very specific sets of circumstances getting them to still lose their reaction might be warranted but if it comes up often enough in a campaign to matter i kind of doubt.
That turning a 1 into a 2 is worth about 1dps more on average. Doesn't change the overall maximum, and if Fire resist your saying isn't that common as the most common resistance then lightning being resisted is even less of an issue because it's far less than fire resistance comes up. So again. the difference is in only one very narrow category. That of Damage. Which is not the be all and end all of comparisons. Overall it's a middling to poor comparison with everything else that might be possible in the game. Including other abilities indirectly leading to more damage done by the party over all.
Your also white rooming badly. Because your accepting that Misty STep gets around AoO for the character. But your ignoring the fact that Shocking Grasp gets around AoO's for the entire party which can lead to a variety of different advantages depending on the situation. The rider ability of Shocking grasp being valuable actually comes up in a variety of combat situations to be viable. Including Ambushes, Tight Areas, attackers threatening squishy characters, Needing an ally to get away from a BBEG that is locking them down, etc. you doubt these things because your not thinking about them. Your focused on the white room math and the damage done and scenerio's that come to your mind which are focusing mostly on damage. But the reality is that these kinds of things come up in actual campaigns with parties quite a lot. There is a reason that shutting down AoO's is considered a strong ability in other places such as Mobility and on the Swashbuckler. The same reasons apply to Shocking Grasp.
You can also use Shocking Grasp through a Familiar (or similar) which means the Caster (assuming a Wizard or a Artificer) could straight up stay at range, deliver a Shocking Grasp via the Familiar and set up the rest of the party to abuse the hell out of an enemy that can no longer make reactions until the start of it's next turn.
Firebolt is amazing in that it is one of the few, if only, Cantrips that can be legally allowed to target anything other than a Creature, but honestly, allowing the player to target whatever they want seems more logical than "No, this spell can only be used on a living being. Eat dirt." whenever the players come up with an inventive or creative use for their abilities and gear.