Bahahahah that is hilarious, and I hadn't thought of that. My spectral mind will now be travelling inside a lantern when I need to be less conspicuous.
"Sir, why are you carrying a lantern around? it is full daylight!"
"Only a fool unversed in the arcane would ask a wizard to snuff out their lantern! The twelfth precept of the third law of magic clearly states..."
"Oh of course master wizard, pardon me. A lowly guard such as m'self don't know no twelve pre-ceptions."
Yeah you're right. You do cast through its senses. I knew that too. Just so much to parse with this sub. I got stuck on a train of thought and got tunnel vision.
Gareth, I completely agree the senses is not what would stop the use of misty step through your manifest mind. Just lost track of that text while going down the rabbit hole. It's very clear in the ability description that you cast through its senses. The fact that it says this specifically for casting spells and mentions the mind needing to telepathically communicate to you outside of casting spells is...confusing. Seems unnecessarily convoluted. But I concede "seeing" is not the limiting factor.
I insist that specific and recent beats specific in cases pertaining to the manifest mind. As far as I know, an effect like casting through your manifest mind is unprecedented in 5th edition, and its exceptional nature was not accounted for when they wrote spell descriptions.
I completely understand this stance. I have said something similar in another thread. This subclass presents a number of unprecedented situations the rules are ill equipped to address. Whether or not casting as if you were in the MM's space equates to actually being in that space for the purposes of misty step (and other teleports) and the question of feet travelled, I am not sure.
I've decided to take a very literal stance on the text. Misty Step says 30 feet and you are not actually in the MM's space. Teleporting from the MM would force your actual body to move more than 30 feet. But I don't think RAW has much to give us for either interpretation. I could see it breaking either way once the complete book of scribe errata and sage advice comes out.
As for power level concerns, I think you are misunderstanding the use of such a combination.
Dimension Door is not a spell that is powerful because you nightcrawler around a battlefield. It is powerful because it allows you to circumvent obstacles or encounters entirely. Its function as a combat escape button or entrance tool is part of its value, but the crux of teleportation magic isbreaking the constraints of reality. Not its combat prowess.
As per your reading of Misty Step + Manifest Mind, this combo is entirely too close to the function of a personal dimension door for the use of a single second level spell.
This combo was never intended to be something you use in combat. Manifest Mind does not have to be summoned in combat. In fact, its main strength is as a scouting tool, very similar to the 4th level spell Arcane Eye. When used as such, you have all the time in the world to send this out while you and your party are in a safe place. Rounds spent to accomplish a task is generally not a concern unless you are engaged in combat or otherwise pressured. You get to choose to send out MM from a safe position.
You can [cast through the mind] a number of times per day equal to your proficiency bonus
At 6th level this gives you only 3 uses per long rest! Do you really want to get to the top of that 300-ft high cliff using a 2nd level spell slot and a subclass resource, or do you want to just cast the 1st level spell levitate? (or even better, hold on to the barbarian while they do the climbing)
Yes, using this to scale an open environment you can see is worse than casting levitate, but you're ignoring so much of what Manifest Mind can do to make this comparison unfavorable. Manifest Mind has a size of tiny (used to denote anything in the game smaller than small) and does not occupy its space. While it cannot pass through solid objects, it can pass through a key hole or crack under the door.
What does this mean? You can infiltrate with the MM and teleport to a place you cannot see from your body. Yes levitate has MM beaten on mountain climbing, but infiltration? That's all MM and it does it quite well.
As for limited spell castings, being able to bypass any number of obstacles to get to a place of importance absolutely has the potential to be worth one of its "charges". No one has ever questioned the value of casting a dimension door over other 4th level spells when that is the tool for the job. This is the same concept.
Enemies can catch on to what you are doing once you have done it in front of them.
The mind glows, and casts spells. That attracts attention. Enemies could figure out what you are doing. Furthermore, if an enemy is following the mind around, teleporting where the mind can see is also probably teleporting where the enemy can see, and only 30 feet from that enemy
Yes, the mind glows and can attract attention. But how many enemies are going to know what it is? How many enemies are going to know that it means a wizard and their party is off in the distance scouting the place out? Unless the DM is metagaming against you, or you try to pull this trick multiple times on a repeating villain, this should be very rarely.
And you don't have to cast misty step. Again, MM is a scouting tool. So, based off of the information you gather you can make a decision what spell to cast if any. Not being able to misty step every time you send out the MM isn't a reason why it isn't too powerful. If there was an opportunity cost to any of this I would be more inclined to agree. But misty step is a spell every wizard wants, and MM is best used as a scouting tool to begin with. You should be sending MM ahead of the party whenever you can. When the moment arises, being able to misty step over 300 feet into a hidden location is crazy powerful.
I think you're heavily overstating the use of resources argument. Manifest Mind is super close in function to Arcane Eye, and has tactical implications beyond the fourth level spell because it acts as a spell conduit and does not require concentration. In many ways MM is more powerful than Arcane Eye, which again, is a 4th level spell. Manifest Mind can be reused by expending any level spell slot. So you're getting more uses of what compares rather well to a 4th level spell out of 1st level slots. This is a favorable resource exchange and a reason to use it often, not a weakness to using MM a lot.
Really, the whole point behind my argument that extending misty step through MM is too powerful is because of how favorable a resource exchange it is. It is way too close to the functionality of a 4th level spell for the cost of a much more expendable 2nd level spell.
Great points! I concede on all of them. Even when respecting the distance limitation, Manifest mind can still be combined to great effect with dimension door and thunderstep. I can't wait to try it out in game!
You receive telepathic information from the spectral mind but don't actually see it. That means you do not use it as a familiar and warg onto it. Therefore, you do not get a totally accurate description if using it as a scout. Think of it like a game of telephone.
When in regards to spells, then you act "as if" you had it's senses, but still not literally seeing it. Therefore, for things like Misty Step I would allow it to be cast through the spectral mind. That means 330ft maximum range is ok. This is not game breaking and smart players can think of numerous ways to take advantage from this. As well as smart DMs can think of ways to counteract it. The mind glows, which really defeats most stealth uses. It can't interact with things and can't produce sounds (which brings me to a side point where the wizard CAN speak TO the spectral mind but it never responds, just as a pet, and I've seen loads of people talking to their pets as if having a conversation with not a single response).
Yeah, I'm with Gareth on this one. Just to quote the rule it all hinges on, emphasis mine:
Whenever you cast a wizard spell on your turn, you can cast it as if you were in the spectral mind’s space, instead of your own, using its senses.
For the purposes of Misty Step, you are in the mind's space, and you see what the mind sees. RAW seems pretty clear to me.
Obviously I do not think they intended this as it does massively increase the utility of the spell. I agree with Gareth that it's not an automatic win button or anything, but it does make the spell much, much better for you than it is for anyone else. Teleportation is a powerful ability and it's restricted pretty heavily in 5e, certainly moreso than remote casting damage-based spells.
So I'd expect a no from the DM even though it's technically okay. It's still a great tool for scouting and keeping you out of harm's way. I think it would be a lot of fun trying to scout an enemy fort, hiding in torches and campfires when someone walks by. But my DM will probably say no to that too... D:
I missed this before somehow but I got pulled back to the thread. I just want to state something here. Using it's senses simply means that any extra sensory powers that you have that it does not means they do not work through it. So things like True Sight, blind sight, or Detect Invisible would not work through it. This is very different than not seeing what it sees at all. So interpreting it as you not seeing what it sees actually takes it in a direction that is not stated by this passage. This is actually basically the same wording as seeing through the eyes of familiars with two simple exceptions. you are not actually blinded or deafened in your own body while doing it. Which is a powerful upgrade from most familiars. There is no game of telephone here. There is no "as if you had it's senses". it flat out says you use what it can sense and what it can sense is through normal vision and dark vision and through normal hearing. If something is following it, then it and thus you can know something is following it.
so by RaW the interpretation here is spot on because it's exactly what it is saying.
Also as a little further clarification. While the 30ft specific is important. The thing that people need to keep in mind is that it does not actually conflict with this power. Because the 30 feet only matters from your present position to the chosen position that you teleport to. While this power through a specificity of it's own, simply alters what your present position is. which is either your physical location or the location of this ability as it's being used and you are actively casting a spell in some way. There is no conflict between the two over the issue of specificity because you are considered to be in both locations for the use of the misty step spell and misty steps specificity only cares about distance from what is considered your location and does not differentiate between your actual body and this feature.
A lot of Utility spells actually have the same kinds of restrictions as misty step. It's just a good example spell to use that effectively alters limited distance spells with some setup. Counterspell is another one that is effectively greatly extended in range when combined with this ability as another example but still would require setup. And of course it's not infinite. But there are a whole lot of spells you can find ways to use through such things even with the limitations.
The limited number of uses is really important from this ability totally breaking everything. but as time goes on I think we are going to see some definite ways this is abused in completely legal ways.
One final little note of clarification. Something to Note is that levitate is not a first level spell. Misty Step and Levitate would be using up the same spell slot to cast those specific spells.
Considering the spectral mind isn’t a creature, wouldn’t it be a stretch to cast invisibility on it?
As a comparison, could you cast invisibility on a mage hand?
you can't cast invisibility on mage hand. That is an affect only applied by certain class features or Feats.
Also this particular feature is insubstantial. It can't actually be touched which is a requirement for casting the spell. Also it glows so even if you made it invisible it's glow would not vanish as well so it would still give it's presence away. which is also a reason that often isn't mentioned not to carry glowing objects while your invisible yourself.
So much thought on misty step and other teleports. What about counterspell? If you’re OOS wizard caster is hiding behind total cover and the OOS cast a spell through manifest mind, can an enemy caster cast counterspell targeting the spell cast from the mind even though the OOS is behind total cover? I’m pretty sure if successful, the counter would take place. As an OOS player I would love for it not to work but seems sooo strong if the spell can’t be countered due to l.o.s.
consensus on witchbolt…sounds like the initial cast works but after that….does it reset to the actual caster or just fail?
if counter spell works against the mind I would say misty step beyond 30ft through the mind is allowed. Just some thoughts. Really cool feature and hopefully your DM goes by the rule of kool!
im just not sure about the whole thing, maybe misty step works maybe it doesn’t go beyond 30 period.
So much thought on misty step and other teleports. What about counterspell? If you’re OOS wizard caster is hiding behind total cover and the OOS cast a spell through manifest mind, can an enemy caster cast counterspell targeting the spell cast from the mind even though the OOS is behind total cover? I’m pretty sure if successful, the counter would take place. As an OOS player I would love for it not to work but seems sooo strong if the spell can’t be countered due to l.o.s.
consensus on witchbolt…sounds like the initial cast works but after that….does it reset to the actual caster or just fail?
if counter spell works against the mind I would say misty step beyond 30ft through the mind is allowed. Just some thoughts. Really cool feature and hopefully your DM goes by the rule of kool!
im just not sure about the whole thing, maybe misty step works maybe it doesn’t go beyond 30 period.
You should be able to get around Counterspell this way, since you cast the spell, not the manifested mind. The counterspeller wouldn't be able to see the caster, making the spell impossible to cast - its trigger wouldn't go off.
Witch Bolt is so unfathomably bad I try to be as generous as possible with it at my table, but there's no question here: the mind doesn't cast the spell (for the same reason it can't be counterspelled) - all bolts fire from the caster, not the mind - and the mind has no abilities letting the caster fire bolts as if from its space. Sorry.
Misty Step works fine. You cast the spell as if in the mind's space. Teleportation spells cast this way teleport you as if from the mind's space, not your own.
It makes absolutely sense that 2 and 3 are both true. Either its cast from its space and your body is treated as if there or it isn't. I'd say no to both of them, I know the official write up on them implied yes to 3, but that is just a bad ruling making any already broken ability more broken.
Wowzers! So the spell can’t be countered, no go on witch bolt, and misty step or any tele spell can add 300ft theoretically. Such an awesome ability. I can see my DM “house ruling or something…he’s pretty big on casters with dispell and counterspell. Can you guys thing of any other interesting spells that might cause a problem or have unique interaction with manifest mind. What about a wall of force…would it work inside the sphere option and would it work behind line wall version?
gonna have to check with wall of force vs resilient sphere…and how spells and that work inside the sphere/
unless there was a sage advice on this that I missed a lot of this is best guesses on peoples part form a poorly worded ability. This sub classes 2 primary abilities are worded in ways that can be interpreted in multiple ways. Nothing wrong with your GM intentionally making a house rule on these abilities but they also may just be making the best call they can at interpreting this sub class.
Hell yeah! I love this feature of the order of scribes wizard. I'm playing it in an upcoming campaign, and as you have already mentioned, point-blank fireball using the manifest mind feature is AWESOME! And that misty step interaction! The "mind" can travel 300 vertically as well, helping you get up or down terrain with ease. I don't think the mind can be affected by spells like invisibility, as it is intangible, but I could be wrong. There might be some great illusion trickery by maintaining the illusion of a creature over top the space of your spectral mind! Some other ideas:
Counterspell requires them to see you casting the spell, so you can safely hide 300ft away while your spectral mind casts spells against enemy magic users.
An elemental conjured by "conjure elemental" lasts for 1 hour and will turn hostile instead of vanishing when you lose concentration. Conjure that bad boy 390ft away from you while hiding and immediately break your concentration. It will attack the enemies around it, and you can concentrate on something more useful... or summon another!
Convince an uncivilized group of creatures that the spectral mind (looking like a wizard of old) is their god, by performing magic and daring them to try to harm it. When they are sufficiently worshipping you, emerge from hiding and enjoy the benefits of godhood!
Use it as an extremely effective distraction-generator. Rogue trying to steal somthing? Guard see through your disguise self? BOOM! Explosion 300ft away.
Make use of awesome melee and cone spells without putting yourself in harms way!
guard three entrances/exits at once using yourself, your spectral mind, and your familiar!
put on a great 5-person show with mirror image, major image, and spectral mind!
look extremely wizardly by "reading" a ghostly tome or wall of text floating in front of you while sitting or travelling.
Sneakily get past an opponent blocking a doorway by summoning the spectral mind in their space, moving it behind them, and misty stepping past them.
Look INSIDE creatures, as you can see with your spectral mind, it sheds dim light, and it can "pass through creatures". I would give extra information to a wizard who did this on a medicine check, if they were well-studied in medicine.
Teleport your unlucky party members out of the belly of the monster that swallowed them, like a purple worm or froghemoth!
Pick up the new eldritch invocation feat to get "Gaze of two minds." Normally, you are blind to your own surroundings while using this, but not when you have spectral mind also giving you sensory input! Maintain a connection with your forward scout while sticking with the main party, giving instant relaying of critical information.
If you, for some reason, have 5 levels in cleric or druid, you can cast Meld into Stone and be super safe for 8 hours, casting spells as normal within the 300ft "leash" of your spectral mind.
Instead of hiding while your spectral mind is front and center in combat, you can be alongside your teammates for buffs/safety while your spectral mind hangs back or scouts for an escape route/ advantageous position.
If, for some ungodly reason, the weather outside is too terrible to even step foot into, you can stay warm and snug inside while your spectral mind goes outside to cast control weather.
Cast "knockback/pull" spells and cantrips from a different angle! Thorn whip a foe off a narrow mountain pass, push the entire line of charging enemies 15 ft to the right or left using gust of wind!
Give the local crime lord a gift of a chest, heavy with coin and also your spectral mind! Hopefully they open the box within 300ft of you, so you can "pop out" using misty step, or the spell "silence" to avoid people outside the room hearing the racket of you making short work of your foes.
make a kid's day by giving them the spectral book, and telling them to shout out whatever spell they'd like to cast, making the magic originate from where they are.
Frame a famous witch or wizard by summoning your spectral friend inside them and casting lightning bolts into the crowd while they give a speech.
Scout inhospitable environments: room full of poisonous gas, vat of acid, icy water, any sort of death-trap room that would kill a familiar scout instantly.
Give your dm a way to incorporate famous wizards from their setting into the game!
Create an antimagic field right on top of an enemy spellcaster/benefiting from magical effects. Your spectral mind will be temporarily suppressed, but the field should remain! Get a beefy teammate to move in and immobilize the enemy in the field.
This part specifically "Counterspell requires them to see you casting the spell, so you can safely hide 300ft away while your spectral mind casts spells against enemy magic users."
This is not entirely true actually. The ability to cast a spell through the manifest mind specifically says "Whenever you cast a wizard spell on your turn, you can cast it as if you were in the spectral mind’s space, instead of your own, using its senses. You can do so a number of times per day equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest." The key bit here is "you can cast it as if you were in the spectral mind’s space" So if you are casting a spell as if you were in that space then counterspell can target you, a creature, casting a spell within range since the spell you cast through it is cast as if you were there.
Hell yeah! I love this feature of the order of scribes wizard. I'm playing it in an upcoming campaign, and as you have already mentioned, point-blank fireball using the manifest mind feature is AWESOME! And that misty step interaction! The "mind" can travel 300 vertically as well, helping you get up or down terrain with ease. I don't think the mind can be affected by spells like invisibility, as it is intangible, but I could be wrong. There might be some great illusion trickery by maintaining the illusion of a creature over top the space of your spectral mind! Some other ideas:
Counterspell requires them to see you casting the spell, so you can safely hide 300ft away while your spectral mind casts spells against enemy magic users.
An elemental conjured by "conjure elemental" lasts for 1 hour and will turn hostile instead of vanishing when you lose concentration. Conjure that bad boy 390ft away from you while hiding and immediately break your concentration. It will attack the enemies around it, and you can concentrate on something more useful... or summon another!
Convince an uncivilized group of creatures that the spectral mind (looking like a wizard of old) is their god, by performing magic and daring them to try to harm it. When they are sufficiently worshipping you, emerge from hiding and enjoy the benefits of godhood!
Use it as an extremely effective distraction-generator. Rogue trying to steal somthing? Guard see through your disguise self? BOOM! Explosion 300ft away.
Make use of awesome melee and cone spells without putting yourself in harms way!
guard three entrances/exits at once using yourself, your spectral mind, and your familiar!
put on a great 5-person show with mirror image, major image, and spectral mind!
look extremely wizardly by "reading" a ghostly tome or wall of text floating in front of you while sitting or travelling.
Sneakily get past an opponent blocking a doorway by summoning the spectral mind in their space, moving it behind them, and misty stepping past them.
Look INSIDE creatures, as you can see with your spectral mind, it sheds dim light, and it can "pass through creatures". I would give extra information to a wizard who did this on a medicine check, if they were well-studied in medicine.
Teleport your unlucky party members out of the belly of the monster that swallowed them, like a purple worm or froghemoth!
Pick up the new eldritch invocation feat to get "Gaze of two minds." Normally, you are blind to your own surroundings while using this, but not when you have spectral mind also giving you sensory input! Maintain a connection with your forward scout while sticking with the main party, giving instant relaying of critical information.
If you, for some reason, have 5 levels in cleric or druid, you can cast Meld into Stone and be super safe for 8 hours, casting spells as normal within the 300ft "leash" of your spectral mind.
Instead of hiding while your spectral mind is front and center in combat, you can be alongside your teammates for buffs/safety while your spectral mind hangs back or scouts for an escape route/ advantageous position.
If, for some ungodly reason, the weather outside is too terrible to even step foot into, you can stay warm and snug inside while your spectral mind goes outside to cast control weather.
Cast "knockback/pull" spells and cantrips from a different angle! Thorn whip a foe off a narrow mountain pass, push the entire line of charging enemies 15 ft to the right or left using gust of wind!
Give the local crime lord a gift of a chest, heavy with coin and also your spectral mind! Hopefully they open the box within 300ft of you, so you can "pop out" using misty step, or the spell "silence" to avoid people outside the room hearing the racket of you making short work of your foes.
make a kid's day by giving them the spectral book, and telling them to shout out whatever spell they'd like to cast, making the magic originate from where they are.
Frame a famous witch or wizard by summoning your spectral friend inside them and casting lightning bolts into the crowd while they give a speech.
Scout inhospitable environments: room full of poisonous gas, vat of acid, icy water, any sort of death-trap room that would kill a familiar scout instantly.
Give your dm a way to incorporate famous wizards from their setting into the game!
Create an antimagic field right on top of an enemy spellcaster/benefiting from magical effects. Your spectral mind will be temporarily suppressed, but the field should remain! Get a beefy teammate to move in and immobilize the enemy in the field.
This part specifically "Counterspell requires them to see you casting the spell, so you can safely hide 300ft away while your spectral mind casts spells against enemy magic users."
This is not entirely true actually. The ability to cast a spell through the manifest mind specifically says "Whenever you cast a wizard spell on your turn, you can cast it as if you were in the spectral mind’s space, instead of your own, using its senses. You can do so a number of times per day equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest." The key bit here is "you can cast it as if you were in the spectral mind’s space" So if you are casting a spell as if you were in that space then counterspell can target you, a creature, casting a spell within range since the spell you cast through it is cast as if you were there.
I agree with you…I think you’re spell could still be countered even if you were behind total cover…now if the mind is also behind total cover…totally fair game!
"you can cause the mind to manifest as a Tiny spectral object, hovering in an unoccupied space of your choice within 60 feet of you. The spectral mind is intangible and doesn't occupy its space,"
"1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell"
The spell is being cast in the space of the mind, but it is specifically an intangible object, not a creature. If you, the creature, are not within 60ft of the counterspell-er, you simply are not in range of their counterspell.
Addressing "as if you were in that space"
It's a good point, but ponder this: what does the counterspell-er see in that space? Do they see you? Maybe they would see the spell, but are you the spell? Does manifest mind state that your likeness appears in that space during the casting? It does not. You cast as if you were there, but they cannot see you there, because you are up to 300 feet away; therefore, counterspell's prerequisite is not met, and it cannot be cast.
It's a novel way of getting around counterspell, which was previously limited to (I believe) greater invisibility. Just my opinion, but I wholeheartedly stand by my interpretation.
Also I'd like to point out that this effect can be replicated by anyone able to cast a spell by simply standing 65 feet away from the counterspell-er haha.This niche upside is limited to situations where you want to cast a spell with a range of 60ft or less that has a greater range than touch(which can be handled by a familiar) or a situation where you can get to full cover within 60ft... and you can only do it a number of times a day equal to your proficiency bonus!
"you can cause the mind to manifest as a Tiny spectral object, hovering in an unoccupied space of your choice within 60 feet of you. The spectral mind is intangible and doesn't occupy its space,"
"1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell"
The spell is being cast in the space of the mind, but it is specifically an intangible object, not a creature. If you, the creature, are not within 60ft of the counterspell-er, you simply are not in range of their counterspell.
Addressing "as if you were in that space"
It's a good point, but ponder this: what does the counterspell-er see in that space? Do they see you? Maybe they would see the spell, but are you the spell? Does manifest mind state that your likeness appears in that space during the casting? It does not. You cast as if you were there, but they cannot see you there, because you are up to 300 feet away; therefore, counterspell's prerequisite is not met, and it cannot be cast.
It's a novel way of getting around counterspell, which was previously limited to (I believe) greater invisibility. Just my opinion, but I wholeheartedly stand by my interpretation.
"you can cause the mind to manifest as a Tiny spectral object, hovering in an unoccupied space of your choice within 60 feet of you. The spectral mind is intangible and doesn't occupy its space,"
"1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell"
The spell is being cast in the space of the mind, but it is specifically an intangible object, not a creature. If you, the creature, are not within 60ft of the counterspell-er, you simply are not in range of their counterspell.
Addressing "as if you were in that space"
It's a good point, but ponder this: what does the counterspell-er see in that space? Do they see you? Maybe they would see the spell, but are you the spell? Does manifest mind state that your likeness appears in that space during the casting? It does not. You cast as if you were there, but they cannot see you there, because you are up to 300 feet away; therefore, counterspell's prerequisite is not met, and it cannot be cast.
It's a novel way of getting around counterspell, which was previously limited to (I believe) greater invisibility. Just my opinion, but I wholeheartedly stand by my interpretation.
Good point, I guess I imagined it as though the spellcaster took the place of the manifested mind...but when you say it like that. HMMMM....
Intangible is not Invisible. Regardless of whta they see it is not invisible and whatever visibility of casting spells comes from that space just as if you were in that space. This makes the spell counterspellable. You casting the spell as if you were in that space fulfill's the Creature requirement even if all they are seeing is the intangible object.
While you all brought up some very good points, I have to agree with Fateless and stand by my original point. The class feature specifies "As if you were there" and the wording essentially denotes that all the implications of you being there yourself are plausible as well. If the feature intended for you to cast a spell through the mind so as to avoid counterspell, I believe it would have been worded more like Find Familiar, which states that your familiar delivers the spell as if it had cast the spell, thus the wording should be, on the class feature, something like "You cast the spell and it originates from your manifest mind's space" or something of that nature. Instead the class feature goes out of its way to be very specific and state that the spell is indeed cast as if you yourself were present there casting it. If we interpret it like that then that spell is cast as if there is indeed a creature within view 60 feet away. Otherwise the wording of the class feature doesn't make a lot of sense when there is already a precedent for this specific wording in other spells. It could've said "Casted from your manifested mind's space" as well, but instead it specifies that it is being cast as if you are in that space yourself.
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Bahahahah that is hilarious, and I hadn't thought of that. My spectral mind will now be travelling inside a lantern when I need to be less conspicuous.
"Sir, why are you carrying a lantern around? it is full daylight!"
"Only a fool unversed in the arcane would ask a wizard to snuff out their lantern! The twelfth precept of the third law of magic clearly states..."
"Oh of course master wizard, pardon me. A lowly guard such as m'self don't know no twelve pre-ceptions."
Gareth, I completely agree the senses is not what would stop the use of misty step through your manifest mind. Just lost track of that text while going down the rabbit hole. It's very clear in the ability description that you cast through its senses. The fact that it says this specifically for casting spells and mentions the mind needing to telepathically communicate to you outside of casting spells is...confusing. Seems unnecessarily convoluted. But I concede "seeing" is not the limiting factor.
I completely understand this stance. I have said something similar in another thread. This subclass presents a number of unprecedented situations the rules are ill equipped to address. Whether or not casting as if you were in the MM's space equates to actually being in that space for the purposes of misty step (and other teleports) and the question of feet travelled, I am not sure.
I've decided to take a very literal stance on the text. Misty Step says 30 feet and you are not actually in the MM's space. Teleporting from the MM would force your actual body to move more than 30 feet. But I don't think RAW has much to give us for either interpretation. I could see it breaking either way once the complete book of scribe errata and sage advice comes out.
As for power level concerns, I think you are misunderstanding the use of such a combination.
Dimension Door is not a spell that is powerful because you nightcrawler around a battlefield. It is powerful because it allows you to circumvent obstacles or encounters entirely. Its function as a combat escape button or entrance tool is part of its value, but the crux of teleportation magic is breaking the constraints of reality. Not its combat prowess.
As per your reading of Misty Step + Manifest Mind, this combo is entirely too close to the function of a personal dimension door for the use of a single second level spell.
This combo was never intended to be something you use in combat. Manifest Mind does not have to be summoned in combat. In fact, its main strength is as a scouting tool, very similar to the 4th level spell Arcane Eye. When used as such, you have all the time in the world to send this out while you and your party are in a safe place. Rounds spent to accomplish a task is generally not a concern unless you are engaged in combat or otherwise pressured. You get to choose to send out MM from a safe position.
Yes, using this to scale an open environment you can see is worse than casting levitate, but you're ignoring so much of what Manifest Mind can do to make this comparison unfavorable. Manifest Mind has a size of tiny (used to denote anything in the game smaller than small) and does not occupy its space. While it cannot pass through solid objects, it can pass through a key hole or crack under the door.
What does this mean? You can infiltrate with the MM and teleport to a place you cannot see from your body. Yes levitate has MM beaten on mountain climbing, but infiltration? That's all MM and it does it quite well.
As for limited spell castings, being able to bypass any number of obstacles to get to a place of importance absolutely has the potential to be worth one of its "charges". No one has ever questioned the value of casting a dimension door over other 4th level spells when that is the tool for the job. This is the same concept.
Yes, the mind glows and can attract attention. But how many enemies are going to know what it is? How many enemies are going to know that it means a wizard and their party is off in the distance scouting the place out? Unless the DM is metagaming against you, or you try to pull this trick multiple times on a repeating villain, this should be very rarely.
And you don't have to cast misty step. Again, MM is a scouting tool. So, based off of the information you gather you can make a decision what spell to cast if any. Not being able to misty step every time you send out the MM isn't a reason why it isn't too powerful. If there was an opportunity cost to any of this I would be more inclined to agree. But misty step is a spell every wizard wants, and MM is best used as a scouting tool to begin with. You should be sending MM ahead of the party whenever you can. When the moment arises, being able to misty step over 300 feet into a hidden location is crazy powerful.
I think you're heavily overstating the use of resources argument. Manifest Mind is super close in function to Arcane Eye, and has tactical implications beyond the fourth level spell because it acts as a spell conduit and does not require concentration. In many ways MM is more powerful than Arcane Eye, which again, is a 4th level spell. Manifest Mind can be reused by expending any level spell slot. So you're getting more uses of what compares rather well to a 4th level spell out of 1st level slots. This is a favorable resource exchange and a reason to use it often, not a weakness to using MM a lot.
Really, the whole point behind my argument that extending misty step through MM is too powerful is because of how favorable a resource exchange it is. It is way too close to the functionality of a 4th level spell for the cost of a much more expendable 2nd level spell.
Great points! I concede on all of them. Even when respecting the distance limitation, Manifest mind can still be combined to great effect with dimension door and thunderstep. I can't wait to try it out in game!
Just my 2 cents here.
You receive telepathic information from the spectral mind but don't actually see it. That means you do not use it as a familiar and warg onto it. Therefore, you do not get a totally accurate description if using it as a scout. Think of it like a game of telephone.
When in regards to spells, then you act "as if" you had it's senses, but still not literally seeing it. Therefore, for things like Misty Step I would allow it to be cast through the spectral mind. That means 330ft maximum range is ok. This is not game breaking and smart players can think of numerous ways to take advantage from this. As well as smart DMs can think of ways to counteract it. The mind glows, which really defeats most stealth uses. It can't interact with things and can't produce sounds (which brings me to a side point where the wizard CAN speak TO the spectral mind but it never responds, just as a pet, and I've seen loads of people talking to their pets as if having a conversation with not a single response).
I missed this before somehow but I got pulled back to the thread. I just want to state something here. Using it's senses simply means that any extra sensory powers that you have that it does not means they do not work through it. So things like True Sight, blind sight, or Detect Invisible would not work through it. This is very different than not seeing what it sees at all. So interpreting it as you not seeing what it sees actually takes it in a direction that is not stated by this passage. This is actually basically the same wording as seeing through the eyes of familiars with two simple exceptions. you are not actually blinded or deafened in your own body while doing it. Which is a powerful upgrade from most familiars. There is no game of telephone here. There is no "as if you had it's senses". it flat out says you use what it can sense and what it can sense is through normal vision and dark vision and through normal hearing. If something is following it, then it and thus you can know something is following it.
so by RaW the interpretation here is spot on because it's exactly what it is saying.
Also as a little further clarification. While the 30ft specific is important. The thing that people need to keep in mind is that it does not actually conflict with this power. Because the 30 feet only matters from your present position to the chosen position that you teleport to. While this power through a specificity of it's own, simply alters what your present position is. which is either your physical location or the location of this ability as it's being used and you are actively casting a spell in some way. There is no conflict between the two over the issue of specificity because you are considered to be in both locations for the use of the misty step spell and misty steps specificity only cares about distance from what is considered your location and does not differentiate between your actual body and this feature.
A lot of Utility spells actually have the same kinds of restrictions as misty step. It's just a good example spell to use that effectively alters limited distance spells with some setup. Counterspell is another one that is effectively greatly extended in range when combined with this ability as another example but still would require setup. And of course it's not infinite. But there are a whole lot of spells you can find ways to use through such things even with the limitations.
The limited number of uses is really important from this ability totally breaking everything. but as time goes on I think we are going to see some definite ways this is abused in completely legal ways.
One final little note of clarification. Something to Note is that levitate is not a first level spell. Misty Step and Levitate would be using up the same spell slot to cast those specific spells.
Considering the spectral mind isn’t a creature, wouldn’t it be a stretch to cast invisibility on it?
As a comparison, could you cast invisibility on a mage hand?
you can't cast invisibility on mage hand. That is an affect only applied by certain class features or Feats.
Also this particular feature is insubstantial. It can't actually be touched which is a requirement for casting the spell. Also it glows so even if you made it invisible it's glow would not vanish as well so it would still give it's presence away. which is also a reason that often isn't mentioned not to carry glowing objects while your invisible yourself.
Yeah that was my point, the original post mentioned casting invisibility on the Mind to use it as a scout!
I didn't know that rule about glowing items, that's actually really interesting!
So much thought on misty step and other teleports. What about counterspell? If you’re OOS wizard caster is hiding behind total cover and the OOS cast a spell through manifest mind, can an enemy caster cast counterspell targeting the spell cast from the mind even though the OOS is behind total cover? I’m pretty sure if successful, the counter would take place. As an OOS player I would love for it not to work but seems sooo strong if the spell can’t be countered due to l.o.s.
consensus on witchbolt…sounds like the initial cast works but after that….does it reset to the actual caster or just fail?
if counter spell works against the mind I would say misty step beyond 30ft through the mind is allowed. Just some thoughts. Really cool feature and hopefully your DM goes by the rule of kool!
im just not sure about the whole thing, maybe misty step works maybe it doesn’t go beyond 30 period.
All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost.
It makes absolutely sense that 2 and 3 are both true. Either its cast from its space and your body is treated as if there or it isn't. I'd say no to both of them, I know the official write up on them implied yes to 3, but that is just a bad ruling making any already broken ability more broken.
Wowzers! So the spell can’t be countered, no go on witch bolt, and misty step or any tele spell can add 300ft theoretically. Such an awesome ability. I can see my DM “house ruling or something…he’s pretty big on casters with dispell and counterspell. Can you guys thing of any other interesting spells that might cause a problem or have unique interaction with manifest mind. What about a wall of force…would it work inside the sphere option and would it work behind line wall version?
gonna have to check with wall of force vs resilient sphere…and how spells and that work inside the sphere/
All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost.
unless there was a sage advice on this that I missed a lot of this is best guesses on peoples part form a poorly worded ability. This sub classes 2 primary abilities are worded in ways that can be interpreted in multiple ways. Nothing wrong with your GM intentionally making a house rule on these abilities but they also may just be making the best call they can at interpreting this sub class.
This part specifically
"Counterspell requires them to see you casting the spell, so you can safely hide 300ft away while your spectral mind casts spells against enemy magic users."
This is not entirely true actually. The ability to cast a spell through the manifest mind specifically says "Whenever you cast a wizard spell on your turn, you can cast it as if you were in the spectral mind’s space, instead of your own, using its senses. You can do so a number of times per day equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest." The key bit here is "you can cast it as if you were in the spectral mind’s space" So if you are casting a spell as if you were in that space then counterspell can target you, a creature, casting a spell within range since the spell you cast through it is cast as if you were there.
I agree with you…I think you’re spell could still be countered even if you were behind total cover…now if the mind is also behind total cover…totally fair game!
All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost.
I'd still argue for counterspell not working.
"you can cause the mind to manifest as a Tiny spectral object, hovering in an unoccupied space of your choice within 60 feet of you. The spectral mind is intangible and doesn't occupy its space,"
"1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell"
The spell is being cast in the space of the mind, but it is specifically an intangible object, not a creature. If you, the creature, are not within 60ft of the counterspell-er, you simply are not in range of their counterspell.
Addressing "as if you were in that space"
It's a good point, but ponder this: what does the counterspell-er see in that space? Do they see you? Maybe they would see the spell, but are you the spell? Does manifest mind state that your likeness appears in that space during the casting? It does not. You cast as if you were there, but they cannot see you there, because you are up to 300 feet away; therefore, counterspell's prerequisite is not met, and it cannot be cast.
It's a novel way of getting around counterspell, which was previously limited to (I believe) greater invisibility. Just my opinion, but I wholeheartedly stand by my interpretation.
EDIT: here's a good reddit thread discussing this point, except in the case of familiars and trickster clerics: https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/kmx2zf/counterspell_vs_familiars_and_similar_casting/
Also I'd like to point out that this effect can be replicated by anyone able to cast a spell by simply standing 65 feet away from the counterspell-er haha.This niche upside is limited to situations where you want to cast a spell with a range of 60ft or less that has a greater range than touch(which can be handled by a familiar) or a situation where you can get to full cover within 60ft... and you can only do it a number of times a day equal to your proficiency bonus!
Good point, I guess I imagined it as though the spellcaster took the place of the manifested mind...but when you say it like that. HMMMM....
All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost.
Intangible is not Invisible. Regardless of whta they see it is not invisible and whatever visibility of casting spells comes from that space just as if you were in that space. This makes the spell counterspellable. You casting the spell as if you were in that space fulfill's the Creature requirement even if all they are seeing is the intangible object.
While you all brought up some very good points, I have to agree with Fateless and stand by my original point. The class feature specifies "As if you were there" and the wording essentially denotes that all the implications of you being there yourself are plausible as well. If the feature intended for you to cast a spell through the mind so as to avoid counterspell, I believe it would have been worded more like Find Familiar, which states that your familiar delivers the spell as if it had cast the spell, thus the wording should be, on the class feature, something like "You cast the spell and it originates from your manifest mind's space" or something of that nature. Instead the class feature goes out of its way to be very specific and state that the spell is indeed cast as if you yourself were present there casting it. If we interpret it like that then that spell is cast as if there is indeed a creature within view 60 feet away. Otherwise the wording of the class feature doesn't make a lot of sense when there is already a precedent for this specific wording in other spells. It could've said "Casted from your manifested mind's space" as well, but instead it specifies that it is being cast as if you are in that space yourself.