I really like the idea of the Manifest Mind Order of Scribes feature. And now I was thinking about useful and cool spellcombinations.
First things first. The most interesting part of it:
"Whenever you cast a wizard spell on your turn, you can cast it as if you were in the spectral mind’s space, instead of your own, using its senses. You can do so a number of times per day equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest."
Many spells require you to see your target. And the new possibilities of this seem almost endless to me. But what is actually feasible with it?
Attack spells:
I think this should be nearly clear. A Fireball shooting ghost, that cast the spell instead of you. Nice! Where shall I sign?
Spyaction:
Cast an invisibility spell on the Manifest Mind and scout out your enemies. An invisible, silent spy that can almost only be discovered with Detect Magic. Very cool!
Selftarget:
And that, my comrades, is what actually triggers me the most. The discription of Manifest Mind told us "you can cast it as if you were in the spectral mind’s space". Does this mean that the spells now affect our Manifest Mind or actually still affect our Wizard? If the latter is true, the benefits would be immense.
Let's look at Misty Step:
"Briefly surrounded by silvery mist, you teleport up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space that you can see."
We actually can see the space up to 30 feet, but at an additional distance of up to 300 feet through the eyes of our Manifest Mind. Because this is the maximum distance that our little helper can move away from us.
"The spectral mind stops manifesting if it is ever more than 300 feet away from you,..."
If that is true, that would be a huge space that our Wizard could now travel at once with Misty Step. An early teleport spell. Only a little more limited, but still a respectable distance. Chill a little longer with your wizard in your camp and let your little ghost cover a piece of your path. A goblin cave, but you want to go straight to the boss? No problem! Fly invisibly through the cave passages with Manifest Mind. Levers are operated with Mage Hand. And zap! Misty Step in front of the Goblin King who was just brushing his teeth and now doesn't know what's happening to him.
Ok, of course I exaggerated a bit, because 300 feet is basically just a little more than 90 meters, but still. After all.
What do you think about that? Do you have any other ideas like that? I would be very interested in it.
Hell yeah! I love this feature of the order of scribes wizard. I'm playing it in an upcoming campaign, and as you have already mentioned, point-blank fireball using the manifest mind feature is AWESOME! And that misty step interaction! The "mind" can travel 300 vertically as well, helping you get up or down terrain with ease. I don't think the mind can be affected by spells like invisibility, as it is intangible, but I could be wrong. There might be some great illusion trickery by maintaining the illusion of a creature over top the space of your spectral mind! Some other ideas:
Counterspell requires them to see you casting the spell, so you can safely hide 300ft away while your spectral mind casts spells against enemy magic users.
An elemental conjured by "conjure elemental" lasts for 1 hour and will turn hostile instead of vanishing when you lose concentration. Conjure that bad boy 390ft away from you while hiding and immediately break your concentration. It will attack the enemies around it, and you can concentrate on something more useful... or summon another!
Convince an uncivilized group of creatures that the spectral mind (looking like a wizard of old) is their god, by performing magic and daring them to try to harm it. When they are sufficiently worshipping you, emerge from hiding and enjoy the benefits of godhood!
Use it as an extremely effective distraction-generator. Rogue trying to steal somthing? Guard see through your disguise self? BOOM! Explosion 300ft away.
Make use of awesome melee and cone spells without putting yourself in harms way!
guard three entrances/exits at once using yourself, your spectral mind, and your familiar!
put on a great 5-person show with mirror image, major image, and spectral mind!
look extremely wizardly by "reading" a ghostly tome or wall of text floating in front of you while sitting or travelling.
Sneakily get past an opponent blocking a doorway by summoning the spectral mind in their space, moving it behind them, and misty stepping past them.
Look INSIDE creatures, as you can see with your spectral mind, it sheds dim light, and it can "pass through creatures". I would give extra information to a wizard who did this on a medicine check, if they were well-studied in medicine.
Teleport your unlucky party members out of the belly of the monster that swallowed them, like a purple worm or froghemoth!
Pick up the new eldritch invocation feat to get "Gaze of two minds." Normally, you are blind to your own surroundings while using this, but not when you have spectral mind also giving you sensory input! Maintain a connection with your forward scout while sticking with the main party, giving instant relaying of critical information.
If you, for some reason, have 5 levels in cleric or druid, you can cast Meld into Stone and be super safe for 8 hours, casting spells as normal within the 300ft "leash" of your spectral mind.
Instead of hiding while your spectral mind is front and center in combat, you can be alongside your teammates for buffs/safety while your spectral mind hangs back or scouts for an escape route/ advantageous position.
If, for some ungodly reason, the weather outside is too terrible to even step foot into, you can stay warm and snug inside while your spectral mind goes outside to cast control weather.
Cast "knockback/pull" spells and cantrips from a different angle! Thorn whip a foe off a narrow mountain pass, push the entire line of charging enemies 15 ft to the right or left using gust of wind!
Give the local crime lord a gift of a chest, heavy with coin and also your spectral mind! Hopefully they open the box within 300ft of you, so you can "pop out" using misty step, or the spell "silence" to avoid people outside the room hearing the racket of you making short work of your foes.
make a kid's day by giving them the spectral book, and telling them to shout out whatever spell they'd like to cast, making the magic originate from where they are.
Frame a famous witch or wizard by summoning your spectral friend inside them and casting lightning bolts into the crowd while they give a speech.
Scout inhospitable environments: room full of poisonous gas, vat of acid, icy water, any sort of death-trap room that would kill a familiar scout instantly.
Give your dm a way to incorporate famous wizards from their setting into the game!
Create an antimagic field right on top of an enemy spellcaster/benefiting from magical effects. Your spectral mind will be temporarily suppressed, but the field should remain! Get a beefy teammate to move in and immobilize the enemy in the field.
I really like your way of thinking. Very nice ideas. And you're right. No invisibility on this little fella. I ignored the intangible-thing for a second. So, no touchy Spells for him.
But, I have a few more questions. Maybe you can help me.
The discription of the scribe-wizard tell us: "A wizard in the Order of Scribes magically awakens their book, turning it into a trusted companion. All wizards study books, but a wizardly scribe talks to theirs!"
For me this means that the magic book is more than just a silent magical object through which one can see and hear. But the discription of the spell Manifest Mind doesn't say anything about a "speaking" or "thinking" companion. How do you think about this?
And the next question is. Is the Manifest Mind nearly invulnerable? It doesn't have lifepoints. "The spectral mind stops manifesting if it is ever more than 300 feet away from you, if someone casts dispel magic on it, if the Awakened Spellbook is destroyed, if you die, or if you dismiss the spectral mind as a bonus action." It only take damage in form of lost spells with the feat "One with the word". And can another magician attack the manifested mind with mindmagic like "Mind Spike" and harm the wizard behind it, since they are mentally connected?
The whole "does it speak and think for itself" is a question that's been bugging me too, haha. I think that until there is a sage advice on the topic or someone smarter than us comes along, the thinking and speaking will be left up to each player and their DM to decide.
It is nearly indestructible, which is one of my favorite aspects of the spectral mind! Like you said, destroying you or the spellbook, or being subjected to dispel magic seem to be the only ways it can be removed against your will. Given that dispel magic is a 1-action, 3rd level spell, I think that is an excellent tradeoff. You can re-summon it with a bonus action and any level spell slot! You win in both action economy and spell slot economy if the enemy dispells your spellbook, which is awesome.
I don't see any reason an enemy could attack you through your link with the spectral mind. Maaaybe a really bright flash of light, or an illusion/enchantment spell that affects anyone who can see it. If that sort of attack works through your bond with your familiar, then that would be a good precedent for it to work here.
The economic thing is a really good point that I hadn't even considered. Of course, it should be noted that you have already cast a spell then in your own round and can't do it in your mainaction. Or does it not count as a spell to summon the spectral spirit?
As you say. Normaly it count as a feat, not as a spell. So, it should work fine with a spell in the same round.
I had an idea for another, almost game-breaking combination with this feat:
Using the spirit mind like a sentury gun, while your wizard hides in a fullcover place that the enemy can hardly reach. Like Galders Tower or Rope Trick. Yor wizard can thus combine the defensive with the offensive. It's effective as hell.
I like it! One of my first ideas was to hide in a tiny hut using the spectral mind as a sentry gun, but the tiny hut spell specifically disallows magical effects continue across its threshold. Those other ideas for getting full cover are promising!
Trap an enemy in a wall of force along with the spectral mind, then cast through the mind to really mess them up while they're stuck with no way of getting out.
I don't think the misty step spell would work, you'd still be limited to 30 foot range, that limit in the spell did not go away. It does not matter where the manifest mind casts it, you move up to 30' that is a hard limit. Now it still is pretty good with misty step as it bypasses the what you can see limit fairly handily. The manifest mind slips out of the trap you are in, you teleport 30 feet to its side.
My head nearly popped off when I read the misty step interaction, but after looking at the spell's text I agree with MyDudeicus.
Misty Step:
you teleport up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space that you can see
The distance is set at 30 feet. Mentioning the part about sight is a clause in the spell's use. You can only teleport that 30 feet if you can see the space you're teleporting too.
This would be an insanely powerful synergy if it let you teleport 300 feet. The combination still has its uses, just not any that are as generically powerful as that.
Gareth I love your list. A lot of really cool RP based techniques that will lead to memorable moments. But one that you listed really perked me up. Casting conjure elemental through the spectral mind. Using the distance to get around the hostile nature of the summon when you drop concentration is filthy.
Manifest Mind has such broad applications that I can only imagine more unique and powerful interactions will come to light. And it costs nothing to activate or lose.
My head nearly popped off when I read the misty step interaction, but after looking at the spell's text I agree with MyDudeicus.
Misty Step:
you teleport up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space that you can see
The distance is set at 30 feet. Mentioning the part about sight is a clause in the spell's use. You can only teleport that 30 feet if you can see the space you're teleporting too.
This would be an insanely powerful synergy if it let you teleport 300 feet. The combination still has its uses, just not any that are as generically powerful as that.
Gareth I love your list. A lot of really cool RP based techniques that will lead to memorable moments. But one that you listed really perked me up. Casting conjure elemental through the spectral mind. Using the distance to get around the hostile nature of the summon when you drop concentration is filthy.
Manifest Mind has such broad applications that I can only imagine more unique and powerful interactions will come to light. And it costs nothing to activate or lose.
He brings it up because effectively your space is not just your space but also the space of your class effect as far as casting spells go. It's technically a loophole in raw because of the way it's written because it says you are effectively in it's space with it's senses for casting spells which inadvertantly changes the distance to a few things drastically. So you would still be within the general 30' rule of the spell because of the specificity of the power saying your space is not just where your physically standing as far as spells are concerned. Which is what misty step is... I don't believe this was intended by RAI though.
There are potential drawbacks to some things however.
One big one for example is that it glows in a 10' radius. That's going to make it obvious in many indoors or dark settings. pure martial types may not be able to affect it but any caster with 3rd level spells or some kind of pocket dispel magic though can get rid of it easily. It also means affects like invisibility wouldn't work even if you could cast them on it because you might hide the image but invisibility wouldn't hide the glow. Making it perhaps even more suspicious than a seeming illusion spell that is glowing somehow. Lights without sources are usually a bad sign.
I get what you're saying. I'm honestly really stumped the more I think about it.
You are absolutely correct, you can cast spells as if you were in the mind's space. But you are not actually there. If you misty step from the eye's space (while it is further than 30 feet away), then your physical body will need to teleport more than 30 feet to get to that space. I'm not sure how this interacts.
As for enemy interaction with the mind I'd happily trade a free to use (the first time) resource for a third level spell. How many dispels do you think that caster enemy can muster. Bet the wizard has more 1st and 2nd level spell slots to throw at the problem. Also, nothing bad happens if you lose the mind.
Most enemies will have no idea what this thing is unless your DM is metagaming against you. Doubtful they will realize it means someone is scouting out the area. Putting your enemies on general alert but gathering information is better than not knowing anything at all.
Plus, with some creative RP you can absolutely use the glow to your advantage. Use it to draw the attention of unwitting enemies. As they draw close to investigate, cast an aoe or battlefield control spell to hit as many as possible. Forcecage is a real winner here.
Okay so I think I found the reason why manifest mind + misty step does not work.
You have to see the space you're teleporting to. You don't actually share the mind's senses, it can only communicate what it sees telepathically. These are not the same thing. Without a way to see through the eyes of the mind, misty step seems like a no go.
I'm not so sure of that part, it says you can cast the spell as if you were in its space using its senses. And telepathically sharing what it sees and hears could be it just telling you it or actually telepathically having you see and hear it. If it just merely said I see a dragon or something and didn't actually share the senses the second part of casting a spell from its space would not make much sense.
I still go back casting misty step as if in its space just teleports you at most 30 feet from your actual location. It does not matter where you cast misty step from, you actually can only move 30'. As if you are in its place isn't the same as actually being in its space.
Yeah you're right. You do cast through its senses. I knew that too. Just so much to parse with this sub. I got stuck on a train of thought and got tunnel vision.
We seem to agree about the hard limit to 30 feet. You get to cast as if you are in the mind's space but you are not physically there. Specific beats general, and the specific tells you that you can only teleport up to 30 feet.
Wou .. you guys really thought about it. Nice! And yes, this is the point where it becomes tricky for me too.
I think fact is that you can somehow interpret it both ways.
It's this "you can cast as if you were in this area"-thing I hang myself on. It's confusing. I think a few in-game experiments would be good here to see if it's overpowered or if it feels good.
Yeah, unfortunately the Order of Scribes is FULL of vague and hard to understand text that then interacts with spells in a bunch of vague and hard to understand ways. It's a mess lol
I would err on the side of overpowered. Thunder Step is your best 3rd level teleport and only goes 90 feet, but has the added benefits of taking one other person and dealing damage. Dimension Door at 4th has a range of 500 feet and can take multiple people.
I think looking at it in context, misty step + manifest mind is too close in functionality to a personal dimension door for a single second level spell slot.
But, I certainly wouldn't fault you or anyone else giving this a whirl to test it out first. I could certainly be wrong, and the best way to know is to test it out. So much of DnD is hard to judge before you experience it.
Hmm. So I went back and looked at the descriptions of Misty Step and Manifest Mind, because you all have made some good points about the distinction between seeing with your own eyes and seeing with the spectral mind, as well as the 30-ft restriction on misty step. While I still would assert you can use manifest mind to misty step more than 30ft, I think your points are equally compelling,.
Okay so I think I found the reason why manifest mind + misty step does not work.
You have to see the space you're teleporting to. You don't actually share the mind's senses, it can only communicate what it sees telepathically. These are not the same thing. Without a way to see through the eyes of the mind, misty step seems like a no go.
Looking at the entry in TCoE I can see why you got that impression: "The mind can telepathically share with you what it sees and hears (no action required)." However, if you read a bit further down it also states, "...You can cast [a wizard spell] as if you were in the spectral mind’s space, instead of your own, using its senses." I think the best interpretation of "using its senses" is that you see and hear what it sees and hears. This interpretation makes more sense because of a key sentence in the 14th level description: "Your connection to your Awakened Spellbook has become so profound that your soul has become entwined with it." This is what made the difference for me between these two interpretations. Your wizard's soul is melding with the spell book. At the risk of sounding like a total Lich, I would even say a tiny little bit of your soul is probably mixed in with the spectral mind, which is why you can cast as if you were in that location, unlike with an arcane eye, or even a familiar.
While this sounds like a bit of a stretch, I would argue that this is, in fact, rules as intended supporting my interpretation of the rules as written. WotC intend for your soul to be intertwined with this spellbook. You can use its senses so naturally it does not take any sort of action, or even blind you to your own senses, as with a familiar or the warlock's invocation "Gaze of two Minds." You can cast spells through the spectral mind's location because, in effect, part of you is there. HeironymousZot said "specific beats general, and the specific tells you that you can only teleport up to 30 feet." but I insist that specific and recent beats specific in cases pertaining to the manifest mind. As far as I know, an effect like casting through your manifest mind is unprecedented in 5th edition, and its exceptional nature was not accounted for when they wrote spell descriptions.
All of that said, here are mechanical reasons to allow an OoS wizard to misty step more than 30 feet via their manifest mind: it is not as useful as it seems at first glance.
You can only summon it up to 60 feet away, and this costs a bonus action.
Are you going to waste a spell slot(unless it is your first summoning of the mind that day) and a bonus action at the start of combat to summon the mind? If you do, it delays your misty step by at least one round. If you don't, the mind is likely floating beside you.
It can only move 30ft per round, and only if you use your bonus action to move it.
this delays misty step further rounds, and requires you to give up tactical positioning for other spells.
You can [cast through the mind] a number of times per day equal to your proficiency bonus
At 6th level this gives you only 3 uses per long rest! Do you really want to get to the top of that 300-ft high cliff using a 2nd level spell slot and a subclass resource, or do you want to just cast the 1st level spell levitate? (or even better, hold on to the barbarian while they do the climbing)
Enemies can catch on to what you are doing once you have done it in front of them.
The mind glows, and casts spells. That attracts attention. Enemies could figure out what you are doing. Furthermore, if an enemy is following the mind around, teleporting where the mind can see is also probably teleporting where the enemy can see, and only 30 feet from that enemy.
Cleary, an OoS wizard abusing this interaction will not be turned into nightcrawler during combat. A shadow monk will be teleporting around a (somewhat shady) battlefield far more than your OoS could. At a low level when the misty step/manifest mind gimmick would be most useful, you also only have a handful of uses of this feature, which in most situations would be more valuably used for control or damage spells. In effect, the misty step/manifest mind combo gives the wizard an alternative to flight/higher level teleport at the huge cost of a subclass resource and up to ten (10!) bonus actions. Whether in or out of combat, the benefits of this combo are great, but hardly overpowered.
Yeah, I'm with Gareth on this one. Just to quote the rule it all hinges on, emphasis mine:
Whenever you cast a wizard spell on your turn, you can cast it as if you were in the spectral mind’s space, instead of your own, using its senses.
For the purposes of Misty Step, you are in the mind's space, and you see what the mind sees. RAW seems pretty clear to me.
Obviously I do not think they intended this as it does massively increase the utility of the spell. I agree with Gareth that it's not an automatic win button or anything, but it does make the spell much, much better for you than it is for anyone else. Teleportation is a powerful ability and it's restricted pretty heavily in 5e, certainly moreso than remote casting damage-based spells.
So I'd expect a no from the DM even though it's technically okay. It's still a great tool for scouting and keeping you out of harm's way. I think it would be a lot of fun trying to scout an enemy fort, hiding in torches and campfires when someone walks by. But my DM will probably say no to that too... D:
Greetings adventurers!
I really like the idea of the Manifest Mind Order of Scribes feature. And now I was thinking about useful and cool spellcombinations.
First things first. The most interesting part of it:
"Whenever you cast a wizard spell on your turn, you can cast it as if you were in the spectral mind’s space, instead of your own, using its senses. You can do so a number of times per day equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest."
Many spells require you to see your target. And the new possibilities of this seem almost endless to me. But what is actually feasible with it?
Attack spells:
I think this should be nearly clear. A Fireball shooting ghost, that cast the spell instead of you. Nice! Where shall I sign?
Spyaction:
Cast an invisibility spell on the Manifest Mind and scout out your enemies. An invisible, silent spy that can almost only be discovered with Detect Magic. Very cool!
Selftarget:
And that, my comrades, is what actually triggers me the most. The discription of Manifest Mind told us "you can cast it as if you were in the spectral mind’s space". Does this mean that the spells now affect our Manifest Mind or actually still affect our Wizard? If the latter is true, the benefits would be immense.
Let's look at Misty Step:
"Briefly surrounded by silvery mist, you teleport up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space that you can see."
We actually can see the space up to 30 feet, but at an additional distance of up to 300 feet through the eyes of our Manifest Mind. Because this is the maximum distance that our little helper can move away from us.
"The spectral mind stops manifesting if it is ever more than 300 feet away from you,..."
If that is true, that would be a huge space that our Wizard could now travel at once with Misty Step. An early teleport spell. Only a little more limited, but still a respectable distance. Chill a little longer with your wizard in your camp and let your little ghost cover a piece of your path. A goblin cave, but you want to go straight to the boss? No problem! Fly invisibly through the cave passages with Manifest Mind. Levers are operated with Mage Hand. And zap! Misty Step in front of the Goblin King who was just brushing his teeth and now doesn't know what's happening to him.
Ok, of course I exaggerated a bit, because 300 feet is basically just a little more than 90 meters, but still. After all.
What do you think about that? Do you have any other ideas like that? I would be very interested in it.
Hell yeah! I love this feature of the order of scribes wizard. I'm playing it in an upcoming campaign, and as you have already mentioned, point-blank fireball using the manifest mind feature is AWESOME! And that misty step interaction! The "mind" can travel 300 vertically as well, helping you get up or down terrain with ease. I don't think the mind can be affected by spells like invisibility, as it is intangible, but I could be wrong. There might be some great illusion trickery by maintaining the illusion of a creature over top the space of your spectral mind! Some other ideas:
I really like your way of thinking. Very nice ideas. And you're right. No invisibility on this little fella. I ignored the intangible-thing for a second. So, no touchy Spells for him.
But, I have a few more questions. Maybe you can help me.
The discription of the scribe-wizard tell us: "A wizard in the Order of Scribes magically awakens their book, turning it into a trusted companion. All wizards study books, but a wizardly scribe talks to theirs!"
For me this means that the magic book is more than just a silent magical object through which one can see and hear. But the discription of the spell Manifest Mind doesn't say anything about a "speaking" or "thinking" companion. How do you think about this?
And the next question is. Is the Manifest Mind nearly invulnerable? It doesn't have lifepoints. "The spectral mind stops manifesting if it is ever more than 300 feet away from you, if someone casts dispel magic on it, if the Awakened Spellbook is destroyed, if you die, or if you dismiss the spectral mind as a bonus action." It only take damage in form of lost spells with the feat "One with the word". And can another magician attack the manifested mind with mindmagic like "Mind Spike" and harm the wizard behind it, since they are mentally connected?
The whole "does it speak and think for itself" is a question that's been bugging me too, haha. I think that until there is a sage advice on the topic or someone smarter than us comes along, the thinking and speaking will be left up to each player and their DM to decide.
It is nearly indestructible, which is one of my favorite aspects of the spectral mind! Like you said, destroying you or the spellbook, or being subjected to dispel magic seem to be the only ways it can be removed against your will. Given that dispel magic is a 1-action, 3rd level spell, I think that is an excellent tradeoff. You can re-summon it with a bonus action and any level spell slot! You win in both action economy and spell slot economy if the enemy dispells your spellbook, which is awesome.
I don't see any reason an enemy could attack you through your link with the spectral mind. Maaaybe a really bright flash of light, or an illusion/enchantment spell that affects anyone who can see it. If that sort of attack works through your bond with your familiar, then that would be a good precedent for it to work here.
The economic thing is a really good point that I hadn't even considered. Of course, it should be noted that you have already cast a spell then in your own round and can't do it in your mainaction. Or does it not count as a spell to summon the spectral spirit?
Excellent question! It uses a spell slot, but it certainly isn't a normal spell. Another great question for Sage Advice, in my opinion.
Even if you can't re-summon it the same turn, you've caused the enemy to waste their action, which is a win in my book.
If we assume it does count as your spell for the turn, what are some other useful actions a wizard can do on their turn? Off the top of my head:
Give a friend a potion
dodge, disengage, or dash to get to a better spot
Get/stow something in your backpack
Interact with something in the area
Hold your action for some big brain tactical play.
As you say. Normaly it count as a feat, not as a spell. So, it should work fine with a spell in the same round.
I had an idea for another, almost game-breaking combination with this feat:
Using the spirit mind like a sentury gun, while your wizard hides in a fullcover place that the enemy can hardly reach. Like Galders Tower or Rope Trick. Yor wizard can thus combine the defensive with the offensive. It's effective as hell.
I like it! One of my first ideas was to hide in a tiny hut using the spectral mind as a sentry gun, but the tiny hut spell specifically disallows magical effects continue across its threshold. Those other ideas for getting full cover are promising!
Trap an enemy in a wall of force along with the spectral mind, then cast through the mind to really mess them up while they're stuck with no way of getting out.
I don't think the misty step spell would work, you'd still be limited to 30 foot range, that limit in the spell did not go away. It does not matter where the manifest mind casts it, you move up to 30' that is a hard limit. Now it still is pretty good with misty step as it bypasses the what you can see limit fairly handily. The manifest mind slips out of the trap you are in, you teleport 30 feet to its side.
My head nearly popped off when I read the misty step interaction, but after looking at the spell's text I agree with MyDudeicus.
Misty Step:
The distance is set at 30 feet. Mentioning the part about sight is a clause in the spell's use. You can only teleport that 30 feet if you can see the space you're teleporting too.
This would be an insanely powerful synergy if it let you teleport 300 feet. The combination still has its uses, just not any that are as generically powerful as that.
Gareth I love your list. A lot of really cool RP based techniques that will lead to memorable moments. But one that you listed really perked me up. Casting conjure elemental through the spectral mind. Using the distance to get around the hostile nature of the summon when you drop concentration is filthy.
Manifest Mind has such broad applications that I can only imagine more unique and powerful interactions will come to light. And it costs nothing to activate or lose.
He brings it up because effectively your space is not just your space but also the space of your class effect as far as casting spells go. It's technically a loophole in raw because of the way it's written because it says you are effectively in it's space with it's senses for casting spells which inadvertantly changes the distance to a few things drastically. So you would still be within the general 30' rule of the spell because of the specificity of the power saying your space is not just where your physically standing as far as spells are concerned. Which is what misty step is... I don't believe this was intended by RAI though.
There are potential drawbacks to some things however.
One big one for example is that it glows in a 10' radius. That's going to make it obvious in many indoors or dark settings. pure martial types may not be able to affect it but any caster with 3rd level spells or some kind of pocket dispel magic though can get rid of it easily. It also means affects like invisibility wouldn't work even if you could cast them on it because you might hide the image but invisibility wouldn't hide the glow. Making it perhaps even more suspicious than a seeming illusion spell that is glowing somehow. Lights without sources are usually a bad sign.
I get what you're saying. I'm honestly really stumped the more I think about it.
You are absolutely correct, you can cast spells as if you were in the mind's space. But you are not actually there. If you misty step from the eye's space (while it is further than 30 feet away), then your physical body will need to teleport more than 30 feet to get to that space. I'm not sure how this interacts.
As for enemy interaction with the mind I'd happily trade a free to use (the first time) resource for a third level spell. How many dispels do you think that caster enemy can muster. Bet the wizard has more 1st and 2nd level spell slots to throw at the problem. Also, nothing bad happens if you lose the mind.
Most enemies will have no idea what this thing is unless your DM is metagaming against you. Doubtful they will realize it means someone is scouting out the area. Putting your enemies on general alert but gathering information is better than not knowing anything at all.
Plus, with some creative RP you can absolutely use the glow to your advantage. Use it to draw the attention of unwitting enemies. As they draw close to investigate, cast an aoe or battlefield control spell to hit as many as possible. Forcecage is a real winner here.
Okay so I think I found the reason why manifest mind + misty step does not work.
You have to see the space you're teleporting to. You don't actually share the mind's senses, it can only communicate what it sees telepathically. These are not the same thing. Without a way to see through the eyes of the mind, misty step seems like a no go.
I'm not so sure of that part, it says you can cast the spell as if you were in its space using its senses. And telepathically sharing what it sees and hears could be it just telling you it or actually telepathically having you see and hear it. If it just merely said I see a dragon or something and didn't actually share the senses the second part of casting a spell from its space would not make much sense.
I still go back casting misty step as if in its space just teleports you at most 30 feet from your actual location. It does not matter where you cast misty step from, you actually can only move 30'. As if you are in its place isn't the same as actually being in its space.
Yeah you're right. You do cast through its senses. I knew that too. Just so much to parse with this sub. I got stuck on a train of thought and got tunnel vision.
We seem to agree about the hard limit to 30 feet. You get to cast as if you are in the mind's space but you are not physically there. Specific beats general, and the specific tells you that you can only teleport up to 30 feet.
Wou .. you guys really thought about it. Nice!
And yes, this is the point where it becomes tricky for me too.
I think fact is that you can somehow interpret it both ways.
It's this "you can cast as if you were in this area"-thing I hang myself on. It's confusing. I think a few in-game experiments would be good here to see if it's overpowered or if it feels good.
Yeah, unfortunately the Order of Scribes is FULL of vague and hard to understand text that then interacts with spells in a bunch of vague and hard to understand ways. It's a mess lol
I would err on the side of overpowered. Thunder Step is your best 3rd level teleport and only goes 90 feet, but has the added benefits of taking one other person and dealing damage. Dimension Door at 4th has a range of 500 feet and can take multiple people.
I think looking at it in context, misty step + manifest mind is too close in functionality to a personal dimension door for a single second level spell slot.
But, I certainly wouldn't fault you or anyone else giving this a whirl to test it out first. I could certainly be wrong, and the best way to know is to test it out. So much of DnD is hard to judge before you experience it.
Hmm. So I went back and looked at the descriptions of Misty Step and Manifest Mind, because you all have made some good points about the distinction between seeing with your own eyes and seeing with the spectral mind, as well as the 30-ft restriction on misty step. While I still would assert you can use manifest mind to misty step more than 30ft, I think your points are equally compelling,.
Looking at the entry in TCoE I can see why you got that impression: "The mind can telepathically share with you what it sees and hears (no action required)." However, if you read a bit further down it also states, "...You can cast [a wizard spell] as if you were in the spectral mind’s space, instead of your own, using its senses." I think the best interpretation of "using its senses" is that you see and hear what it sees and hears. This interpretation makes more sense because of a key sentence in the 14th level description: "Your connection to your Awakened Spellbook has become so profound that your soul has become entwined with it." This is what made the difference for me between these two interpretations. Your wizard's soul is melding with the spell book. At the risk of sounding like a total Lich, I would even say a tiny little bit of your soul is probably mixed in with the spectral mind, which is why you can cast as if you were in that location, unlike with an arcane eye, or even a familiar.
While this sounds like a bit of a stretch, I would argue that this is, in fact, rules as intended supporting my interpretation of the rules as written. WotC intend for your soul to be intertwined with this spellbook. You can use its senses so naturally it does not take any sort of action, or even blind you to your own senses, as with a familiar or the warlock's invocation "Gaze of two Minds." You can cast spells through the spectral mind's location because, in effect, part of you is there. HeironymousZot said "specific beats general, and the specific tells you that you can only teleport up to 30 feet." but I insist that specific and recent beats specific in cases pertaining to the manifest mind. As far as I know, an effect like casting through your manifest mind is unprecedented in 5th edition, and its exceptional nature was not accounted for when they wrote spell descriptions.
All of that said, here are mechanical reasons to allow an OoS wizard to misty step more than 30 feet via their manifest mind: it is not as useful as it seems at first glance.
Cleary, an OoS wizard abusing this interaction will not be turned into nightcrawler during combat. A shadow monk will be teleporting around a (somewhat shady) battlefield far more than your OoS could. At a low level when the misty step/manifest mind gimmick would be most useful, you also only have a handful of uses of this feature, which in most situations would be more valuably used for control or damage spells. In effect, the misty step/manifest mind combo gives the wizard an alternative to flight/higher level teleport at the huge cost of a subclass resource and up to ten (10!) bonus actions. Whether in or out of combat, the benefits of this combo are great, but hardly overpowered.
Yeah, I'm with Gareth on this one. Just to quote the rule it all hinges on, emphasis mine:
For the purposes of Misty Step, you are in the mind's space, and you see what the mind sees. RAW seems pretty clear to me.
Obviously I do not think they intended this as it does massively increase the utility of the spell. I agree with Gareth that it's not an automatic win button or anything, but it does make the spell much, much better for you than it is for anyone else. Teleportation is a powerful ability and it's restricted pretty heavily in 5e, certainly moreso than remote casting damage-based spells.
So I'd expect a no from the DM even though it's technically okay. It's still a great tool for scouting and keeping you out of harm's way. I think it would be a lot of fun trying to scout an enemy fort, hiding in torches and campfires when someone walks by. But my DM will probably say no to that too... D:
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm