If I used the Overchannel ability on a concentration spell that deals damage over more than one turn does it deal max damage on every turn or only the first turn?
Considering a 14 level Evocation Wizard/Eldritch or Echo Knight who can cast Shadow Blade with the max 32 psychic damage for 10 turns. Also 4x32 damage in one single turn(1 extra attack plus action surge).
There isn't a real clear-cut answer...mainly because there's two sides to the argument:
There are those who say that because the description states "When you CAST the spell..." that it is only on the first damage roll, because it occurs upon the initial casting of the spell, only for one burst.
Others say that because the description says "...you deal max damage with the spell"...they take it literally: If it's the same spell, you do maximum damage. For the whole duration. Period.
I personally lean more towards the latter argument...evocation wizards are about the damage; and this feature should extend to concentration spells that have multiple uses of damage.
I feel like it's the implied definition.
So if the Evocation Wizard wants to "Overchannel" a "Shadow Blade" or "Bigby's Hand" and go nuts with damage, they can...and should be prepared to immediately become a target by the DM. ; )
I'd let them get it for the duration. Sustained damage spells have reduced damage compared to instant ones, if it was just the first round it would be pretty unimpressive. I mean sure, yes a multi-class whatever might find a way to work to extreme effect but normally it wont be that huge. Take shadow blade on lets say a blade singer okay maybe 64 damage a round. But the fighters and barbarians in our games to similar damage, bigbys 32 damage a round, still far less than the fighters in our games. Cloudkill, wall of fire would be impressive as its an area and okay damage.
I think it would be in just in one burst because if you look at most evocation spells they are instantaneous, other wise I feel like it would be way to strong for a 14th Lvl wizard maybe they could make it change at different levels.
I think it would be in just in one burst because if you look at most evocation spells they are instantaneous, other wise I feel like it would be way to strong for a 14th Lvl wizard maybe they could make it change at different levels.
I rationalize it as: if the spell has a duration and requires concentration, the Evocation Wizard gains a useful, consistent form of massive damage until they draw the attention of enemies, who will very likely target the wizard and disrupt their concentration.
Lacking considerable defenses, this turns the Evocation Wizard into the glassiest of cannons.
Given the clearly different wording from the Tempest Cleric's Channel Divinity power that shows up in the same book, I'd say that having it last for the spell's duration was clearly the intended interpretation.
Not a reply but a question about damage, if I roll a NAT20 to double dmg of spell and use overchannel to deal max dmg does the nat20 double the overchannel max dmg?
I think the main issue on that is when do you have to decide if you will over channel. If it is after you connect that's pretty snazzy. It says when you cast, but the attack roll may be seen as part of the casting so GM call there. Either way, yes the crit gets maximized imo. though I can not think of any high level attack roll based spells other than bigbys, and most don't scale amazingly, I wish there had been more attack roll based spells for the wizard, everyone likes to crit
I believe that you have to decide to Overchannel when you "cast the spell" not when you "hit with the spell". So they would have to choose to Overchannel the spell prior to rolling to hit.
The ability of Overchannel to do Max damage on a concentration spell is very powerful and I can see why would disagree to that sort of ruling. But I believe it should do max damage for the duration. After all, this is the capstone ability of this Subclass (I said subclass not class) it's meant to be powerful and you only get one free use of it before you have to start taking damage every time you used it. Though depending on the spell this ability is being used to max damage on, I can see it being extremely powerful.
This also leads to other questions like if you can use Overchannel on a spell cast through Wish as long as that spell is cast at a level of 5th Level or Lower. There are some spells like Call Lightning that will let you do 5d10 damage every turn to a group of enemies.
I'd say no on wish. Its is either a 9th level spell or if you are looking at the level of the spell emulated, its then not a wizard spell, the limitations are 5th level or lower wizard spells.
I'd say no on wish. Its is either a 9th level spell or if you are looking at the level of the spell emulated, its then not a wizard spell, the limitations are 5th level or lower wizard spells.
I can see your point, but I can also see how you could argue the other way as well. In the end this would be completely up to the DM and what they would decide as we have no clear direction in the books or in any Errata/Sage Advice. I was just pointing out the potential strength of this spell.
The ability only works on spells of 5th level and below anyway.
Sure but most campaigns stop near when you get the ability, so 4th/5th level spells are higher level spells.
Most Campaigns stop at 14? First I’ve heard of this stat
In my opinion, I’d only allow it for one damage roll of the spell because of the wording “When you cast...” which has been used in other places to imply only affecting the spell when it is actually cast.
When you cast a wizard spell of 5th level or lower that deals damage, you can deal maximum damage with that spell.
If you Overchannel a Cloudkill spell, you would be doing 40 points of damage every round that it's active- maxing the damage only on the first round is not inflicting maximum damage with that spell.
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"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
When you cast a wizard spell of 5th level or lower that deals damage, you can deal maximum damage with that spell.
If you Overchannel a Cloudkill spell, you would be doing 40 points of damage every round that it's active- maxing the damage only on the first round is not inflicting maximum damage with that spell.
That's not what it says, but your version's only issue is that it allows Overchannel to work on cantrips, which is illegal - the actual text doesn't differ meaningfully as to your point. Here's the actual relevant text:
When you cast a wizard spell of 1st through 5th level that deals damage, you can deal maximum damage with that spell.
When you cast a wizard spell of 5th level or lower that deals damage, you can deal maximum damage with that spell.
If you Overchannel a Cloudkill spell, you would be doing 40 points of damage every round that it's active- maxing the damage only on the first round is not inflicting maximum damage with that spell.
I consider the indication “when you cast the spell” to be and indication of a moment of time. That is a specific time: when the spell is cast. Not the round after, not ten rounds from now - *only* when the spell is being cast. This ability has no effect outside of that time restriction. That’s how I interpret it.
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If I used the Overchannel ability on a concentration spell that deals damage over more than one turn does it deal max damage on every turn or only the first turn?
Considering a 14 level Evocation Wizard/Eldritch or Echo Knight who can cast Shadow Blade with the max 32 psychic damage for 10 turns. Also 4x32 damage in one single turn(1 extra attack plus action surge).
The rules and wording says "for that spell" so yeah id say Shadow Blade would deal max damage every time if cast with overcharge.
There isn't a real clear-cut answer...mainly because there's two sides to the argument:
There are those who say that because the description states "When you CAST the spell..." that it is only on the first damage roll, because it occurs upon the initial casting of the spell, only for one burst.
Others say that because the description says "...you deal max damage with the spell"...they take it literally: If it's the same spell, you do maximum damage. For the whole duration. Period.
I personally lean more towards the latter argument...evocation wizards are about the damage; and this feature should extend to concentration spells that have multiple uses of damage.
I feel like it's the implied definition.
So if the Evocation Wizard wants to "Overchannel" a "Shadow Blade" or "Bigby's Hand" and go nuts with damage, they can...and should be prepared to immediately become a target by the DM. ; )
I'd let them get it for the duration. Sustained damage spells have reduced damage compared to instant ones, if it was just the first round it would be pretty unimpressive. I mean sure, yes a multi-class whatever might find a way to work to extreme effect but normally it wont be that huge. Take shadow blade on lets say a blade singer okay maybe 64 damage a round. But the fighters and barbarians in our games to similar damage, bigbys 32 damage a round, still far less than the fighters in our games. Cloudkill, wall of fire would be impressive as its an area and okay damage.
I think it would be in just in one burst because if you look at most evocation spells they are instantaneous, other wise I feel like it would be way to strong for a 14th Lvl wizard maybe they could make it change at different levels.
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I rationalize it as: if the spell has a duration and requires concentration, the Evocation Wizard gains a useful, consistent form of massive damage until they draw the attention of enemies, who will very likely target the wizard and disrupt their concentration.
Lacking considerable defenses, this turns the Evocation Wizard into the glassiest of cannons.
keep in mind that after the first use, the necrotic damage is done after the spell is cast, and a concentration save will be required.
Given the clearly different wording from the Tempest Cleric's Channel Divinity power that shows up in the same book, I'd say that having it last for the spell's duration was clearly the intended interpretation.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Not a reply but a question about damage, if I roll a NAT20 to double dmg of spell and use overchannel to deal max dmg does the nat20 double the overchannel max dmg?
I think it would depend on how your DM is doing critical hits to determine the formula, but essentially it ends up the same.
2d6 (max) * 2 = 24
4d6 (max) = 24
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I think the main issue on that is when do you have to decide if you will over channel. If it is after you connect that's pretty snazzy. It says when you cast, but the attack roll may be seen as part of the casting so GM call there. Either way, yes the crit gets maximized imo. though I can not think of any high level attack roll based spells other than bigbys, and most don't scale amazingly, I wish there had been more attack roll based spells for the wizard, everyone likes to crit
The ability only works on spells of 5th level and below anyway.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Sure but most campaigns stop near when you get the ability, so 4th/5th level spells are higher level spells.
I believe that you have to decide to Overchannel when you "cast the spell" not when you "hit with the spell". So they would have to choose to Overchannel the spell prior to rolling to hit.
The ability of Overchannel to do Max damage on a concentration spell is very powerful and I can see why would disagree to that sort of ruling. But I believe it should do max damage for the duration. After all, this is the capstone ability of this Subclass (I said subclass not class) it's meant to be powerful and you only get one free use of it before you have to start taking damage every time you used it. Though depending on the spell this ability is being used to max damage on, I can see it being extremely powerful.
This also leads to other questions like if you can use Overchannel on a spell cast through Wish as long as that spell is cast at a level of 5th Level or Lower. There are some spells like Call Lightning that will let you do 5d10 damage every turn to a group of enemies.
I'd say no on wish. Its is either a 9th level spell or if you are looking at the level of the spell emulated, its then not a wizard spell, the limitations are 5th level or lower wizard spells.
I can see your point, but I can also see how you could argue the other way as well. In the end this would be completely up to the DM and what they would decide as we have no clear direction in the books or in any Errata/Sage Advice. I was just pointing out the potential strength of this spell.
Most Campaigns stop at 14? First I’ve heard of this stat
In my opinion, I’d only allow it for one damage roll of the spell because of the wording “When you cast...” which has been used in other places to imply only affecting the spell when it is actually cast.
I understand there’s ambiguity of course.
I really don't see the alleged ambiguity.
If you Overchannel a Cloudkill spell, you would be doing 40 points of damage every round that it's active- maxing the damage only on the first round is not inflicting maximum damage with that spell.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
That's not what it says, but your version's only issue is that it allows Overchannel to work on cantrips, which is illegal - the actual text doesn't differ meaningfully as to your point. Here's the actual relevant text:
I consider the indication “when you cast the spell” to be and indication of a moment of time. That is a specific time: when the spell is cast. Not the round after, not ten rounds from now - *only* when the spell is being cast. This ability has no effect outside of that time restriction. That’s how I interpret it.