Getting the spell of summon Undead makes this subclass so much more useful now. Plus for how it appears it seems that using summon undead summon to kill something will trigger the necromancers healing ability too, which makes it extra nice.
Also the spell list you posted seems to be the homebrew spell list, not the official one. I wasnt sure if that was intentional or not.
Having undead minions is nice, just don't forget the practical consequences of that. That would include how long it takes to send each undead through a doorway if adventuring inside. It includes rolling countless to hits as other players want to peel your eyeballs like grapes. So forth and so on.
I think besides party conflict and city walking reasons, Necromancers are really great. I started playing a Diviner myself, but due to RP, he became a Necromancer at level 5. Now he is trying to prove to his allies that although unnatural, death arcane knowledge can be used for justice and etc.
To avoid issues, my DM changed Animate Dead from 1 minute to 1 action casting and allowed me to create several undead from one corpse, that doesn’t need to be Humanoid. This helped me a lot to manage undead army.
Zombies and Stinking Cloud is a great combo for a 5th level Necro as well. Just have the zombies dog pile the enemy inside the Stinking Cloud. It is a poor man’s Eobard’s.
Zombies and Stinking Cloud is a great combo for a 5th level Necro as well. Just have the zombies dog pile the enemy inside the Stinking Cloud. It is a poor man’s Eobard’s.
Well well well, thank you for commenting that and adding to my vast collection of Google Docs full of my undead army tactics, plans, and attack combos.
Having undead minions is nice, just don't forget the practical consequences of that. That would include how long it takes to send each undead through a doorway if adventuring inside. It includes rolling countless to hits as other players want to peel your eyeballs like grapes. So forth and so on.
I dont understand; if you have them all on the same initiative and use a dice roller app for multi rolls you can make even 10 puppets in a turn take only a few seconds.
I dont understand; if you have them all on the same initiative and use a dice roller app for multi rolls you can make even 10 puppets in a turn take only a few seconds.
if you have them on the same initiative AND attacking creatures who have the same difficulty to hit AND the GM shares what that difficulty is AND you aren’t the kind of person to get overwhelmed by options AND ..
I dont understand; if you have them all on the same initiative and use a dice roller app for multi rolls you can make even 10 puppets in a turn take only a few seconds.
if you have them on the same initiative AND attacking creatures who have the same difficulty to hit AND the GM shares what that difficulty is AND you aren’t the kind of person to get overwhelmed by options AND ..
Hmm I never even realized they don't all share the same Initiative for the spell, we've always just ran that they do at my tables. Thanks for pointing that out. As for the rest I don't see why you wouldnt and why the DM wouldn't share it once you're hitting with lots of things. That can really slow things down if it isn't. I mean an easy out it roll all at the same time and then the dmg die of those that hit and make it easy. I have a summoning druid that uses velociraptors for its conjure (yes the DM is awesome on letting me pick them) I use Avrae to roll all 8 atks at adv x2 and dmg and still only takes maybe a minute or 2. Plus if you get overwhelmed with options I doubt you'd be playing a "summoner" type pc.
TL;DR there are easy solutions if you work with the DM on it.
I dont understand; if you have them all on the same initiative and use a dice roller app for multi rolls you can make even 10 puppets in a turn take only a few seconds.
if you have them on the same initiative AND attacking creatures who have the same difficulty to hit AND the GM shares what that difficulty is AND you aren’t the kind of person to get overwhelmed by options AND ..
Hmm I never even realized they don't all share the same Initiative for the spell, we've always just ran that they do at my tables. Thanks for pointing that out. As for the rest I don't see why you wouldnt and why the DM wouldn't share it once you're hitting with lots of things. That can really slow things down if it isn't. I mean an easy out it roll all at the same time and then the dmg die of those that hit and make it easy. I have a summoning druid that uses velociraptors for its conjure (yes the DM is awesome on letting me pick them) I use Avrae to roll all 8 atks at adv x2 and dmg and still only takes maybe a minute or 2. Plus if you get overwhelmed with options I doubt you'd be playing a "summoner" type pc.
TL;DR there are easy solutions if you work with the DM on it.
Okay, so you hit. You also roll damage all at once using a spreadsheet or something. You have to roll saves, perception checks., track damage, modify to hits based on conditions, modify tactics (some of your creatures might use bows to attack the giant bat flying in the dark while one of your creatures is helping the rogue get advantage and sneak attack dice and the rest of youur characters have drawn their swords and are attacking the enemy who has gotten past the fighters and are attacking you.).
I dont understand; if you have them all on the same initiative and use a dice roller app for multi rolls you can make even 10 puppets in a turn take only a few seconds.
if you have them on the same initiative AND attacking creatures who have the same difficulty to hit AND the GM shares what that difficulty is AND you aren’t the kind of person to get overwhelmed by options AND ..
Hmm I never even realized they don't all share the same Initiative for the spell, we've always just ran that they do at my tables. Thanks for pointing that out. As for the rest I don't see why you wouldnt and why the DM wouldn't share it once you're hitting with lots of things. That can really slow things down if it isn't. I mean an easy out it roll all at the same time and then the dmg die of those that hit and make it easy. I have a summoning druid that uses velociraptors for its conjure (yes the DM is awesome on letting me pick them) I use Avrae to roll all 8 atks at adv x2 and dmg and still only takes maybe a minute or 2. Plus if you get overwhelmed with options I doubt you'd be playing a "summoner" type pc.
TL;DR there are easy solutions if you work with the DM on it.
Okay, so you hit. You also roll damage all at once using a spreadsheet or something. You have to roll saves, perception checks., track damage, modify to hits based on conditions, modify tactics (some of your creatures might use bows to attack the giant bat flying in the dark while one of your creatures is helping the rogue get advantage and sneak attack dice and the rest of youur characters have drawn their swords and are attacking the enemy who has gotten past the fighters and are attacking you.).
Right? So still using similar tactics for all of it to keep things moving. I'm sorry I'm truly not following if this is meant to be considered more of a challenge or not. Also unsure if we both are saying the same thing just slightly different wording.
I agree; “Summon Undead Spirit” has brought me back to the Necromancy Wizard again.
The “ghostly” spirit especially interests me...it mixes up the typical “zombie” or “skeleton” summons other spells provides.
I like to flavor it as the Wizard’s shadow or soul emanating from their body to lash out at enemies.
Side note: the new “Create Magen” spell is particularly nasty for Necromancy Wizards, because they cannot have their HP reduced...so it’s another powerful ally with no down side.
I dont understand; if you have them all on the same initiative and use a dice roller app for multi rolls you can make even 10 puppets in a turn take only a few seconds.
if you have them on the same initiative AND attacking creatures who have the same difficulty to hit AND the GM shares what that difficulty is AND you aren’t the kind of person to get overwhelmed by options AND ..
Hmm I never even realized they don't all share the same Initiative for the spell, we've always just ran that they do at my tables. Thanks for pointing that out. As for the rest I don't see why you wouldnt and why the DM wouldn't share it once you're hitting with lots of things. That can really slow things down if it isn't. I mean an easy out it roll all at the same time and then the dmg die of those that hit and make it easy. I have a summoning druid that uses velociraptors for its conjure (yes the DM is awesome on letting me pick them) I use Avrae to roll all 8 atks at adv x2 and dmg and still only takes maybe a minute or 2. Plus if you get overwhelmed with options I doubt you'd be playing a "summoner" type pc.
TL;DR there are easy solutions if you work with the DM on it.
Okay, so you hit. You also roll damage all at once using a spreadsheet or something. You have to roll saves, perception checks., track damage, modify to hits based on conditions, modify tactics (some of your creatures might use bows to attack the giant bat flying in the dark while one of your creatures is helping the rogue get advantage and sneak attack dice and the rest of youur characters have drawn their swords and are attacking the enemy who has gotten past the fighters and are attacking you.).
Right? So still using similar tactics for all of it to keep things moving. I'm sorry I'm truly not following if this is meant to be considered more of a challenge or not. Also unsure if we both are saying the same thing just slightly different wording.
I posted first, so if it is a challenge, then you are challenging me.
My point is simply this, even if you have a spreadsheet or something, managing 16 zerglings is going to take time and will annoy the other players. That is unless you tightly restrict what these zerglings do (such as have them all do the same thing) in which case you lose a lot of the utility of bringing a lot of little guys onto the map.
I dont understand; if you have them all on the same initiative and use a dice roller app for multi rolls you can make even 10 puppets in a turn take only a few seconds.
if you have them on the same initiative AND attacking creatures who have the same difficulty to hit AND the GM shares what that difficulty is AND you aren’t the kind of person to get overwhelmed by options AND ..
Hmm I never even realized they don't all share the same Initiative for the spell, we've always just ran that they do at my tables. Thanks for pointing that out. As for the rest I don't see why you wouldnt and why the DM wouldn't share it once you're hitting with lots of things. That can really slow things down if it isn't. I mean an easy out it roll all at the same time and then the dmg die of those that hit and make it easy. I have a summoning druid that uses velociraptors for its conjure (yes the DM is awesome on letting me pick them) I use Avrae to roll all 8 atks at adv x2 and dmg and still only takes maybe a minute or 2. Plus if you get overwhelmed with options I doubt you'd be playing a "summoner" type pc.
TL;DR there are easy solutions if you work with the DM on it.
Okay, so you hit. You also roll damage all at once using a spreadsheet or something. You have to roll saves, perception checks., track damage, modify to hits based on conditions, modify tactics (some of your creatures might use bows to attack the giant bat flying in the dark while one of your creatures is helping the rogue get advantage and sneak attack dice and the rest of youur characters have drawn their swords and are attacking the enemy who has gotten past the fighters and are attacking you.).
Right? So still using similar tactics for all of it to keep things moving. I'm sorry I'm truly not following if this is meant to be considered more of a challenge or not. Also unsure if we both are saying the same thing just slightly different wording.
I posted first, so if it is a challenge, then you are challenging me.
My point is simply this, even if you have a spreadsheet or something, managing 16 zerglings is going to take time and will annoy the other players. That is unless you tightly restrict what these zerglings do (such as have them all do the same thing) in which case you lose a lot of the utility of bringing a lot of little guys onto the map.
What? I mentioned nothing about challenging anyone. What I was questioning was the aspect of managing the summons using different actions (which if you are wanting them all to do different things and not group them into bunching collectives then that I feel would be taking away a lot from your party and take a vast amount of time, agreeably.) that are part of a collective group being a higher challenge. If you group say 16 summons into even groups of 4 and they are all the same thing then you can still do a multiple of rolls on an app, or something like a Roll20, or even as you stated spreadsheet then add their modifiers to each, just as you would attacks and dmg. Doing something of that nature should not be more of an extreme challenge to the player, if managed well.
I dont understand; if you have them all on the same initiative and use a dice roller app for multi rolls you can make even 10 puppets in a turn take only a few seconds.
if you have them on the same initiative AND attacking creatures who have the same difficulty to hit AND the GM shares what that difficulty is AND you aren’t the kind of person to get overwhelmed by options AND ..
Hmm I never even realized they don't all share the same Initiative for the spell, we've always just ran that they do at my tables. Thanks for pointing that out. As for the rest I don't see why you wouldnt and why the DM wouldn't share it once you're hitting with lots of things. That can really slow things down if it isn't. I mean an easy out it roll all at the same time and then the dmg die of those that hit and make it easy. I have a summoning druid that uses velociraptors for its conjure (yes the DM is awesome on letting me pick them) I use Avrae to roll all 8 atks at adv x2 and dmg and still only takes maybe a minute or 2. Plus if you get overwhelmed with options I doubt you'd be playing a "summoner" type pc.
TL;DR there are easy solutions if you work with the DM on it.
Okay, so you hit. You also roll damage all at once using a spreadsheet or something. You have to roll saves, perception checks., track damage, modify to hits based on conditions, modify tactics (some of your creatures might use bows to attack the giant bat flying in the dark while one of your creatures is helping the rogue get advantage and sneak attack dice and the rest of youur characters have drawn their swords and are attacking the enemy who has gotten past the fighters and are attacking you.).
Right? So still using similar tactics for all of it to keep things moving. I'm sorry I'm truly not following if this is meant to be considered more of a challenge or not. Also unsure if we both are saying the same thing just slightly different wording.
I posted first, so if it is a challenge, then you are challenging me.
My point is simply this, even if you have a spreadsheet or something, managing 16 zerglings is going to take time and will annoy the other players. That is unless you tightly restrict what these zerglings do (such as have them all do the same thing) in which case you lose a lot of the utility of bringing a lot of little guys onto the map.
What? I mentioned nothing about challenging anyone. What I was questioning was the aspect of managing the summons using different actions (which if you are wanting them all to do different things and not group them into bunching collectives then that I feel would be taking away a lot from your party and take a vast amount of time, agreeably.) that are part of a collective group being a higher challenge. If you group say 16 summons into even groups of 4 and they are all the same thing then you can still do a multiple of rolls on an app, or something like a Roll20, or even as you stated spreadsheet then add their modifiers to each, just as you would attacks and dmg. Doing something of that nature should not be more of an extreme challenge to the player, if managed well.
I’ve seen one person in my four decades of gaming manage to play a summoner and not add appreciable time to his turn. One person. So, I’m not going to sit here and argue that it can’t be done. It is just extraordinarily unlikely that any of the next ten people who ask will be able to do it.
I dont understand; if you have them all on the same initiative and use a dice roller app for multi rolls you can make even 10 puppets in a turn take only a few seconds.
if you have them on the same initiative AND attacking creatures who have the same difficulty to hit AND the GM shares what that difficulty is AND you aren’t the kind of person to get overwhelmed by options AND ..
Hmm I never even realized they don't all share the same Initiative for the spell, we've always just ran that they do at my tables. Thanks for pointing that out. As for the rest I don't see why you wouldnt and why the DM wouldn't share it once you're hitting with lots of things. That can really slow things down if it isn't. I mean an easy out it roll all at the same time and then the dmg die of those that hit and make it easy. I have a summoning druid that uses velociraptors for its conjure (yes the DM is awesome on letting me pick them) I use Avrae to roll all 8 atks at adv x2 and dmg and still only takes maybe a minute or 2. Plus if you get overwhelmed with options I doubt you'd be playing a "summoner" type pc.
TL;DR there are easy solutions if you work with the DM on it.
Okay, so you hit. You also roll damage all at once using a spreadsheet or something. You have to roll saves, perception checks., track damage, modify to hits based on conditions, modify tactics (some of your creatures might use bows to attack the giant bat flying in the dark while one of your creatures is helping the rogue get advantage and sneak attack dice and the rest of youur characters have drawn their swords and are attacking the enemy who has gotten past the fighters and are attacking you.).
Right? So still using similar tactics for all of it to keep things moving. I'm sorry I'm truly not following if this is meant to be considered more of a challenge or not. Also unsure if we both are saying the same thing just slightly different wording.
I posted first, so if it is a challenge, then you are challenging me.
My point is simply this, even if you have a spreadsheet or something, managing 16 zerglings is going to take time and will annoy the other players. That is unless you tightly restrict what these zerglings do (such as have them all do the same thing) in which case you lose a lot of the utility of bringing a lot of little guys onto the map.
What? I mentioned nothing about challenging anyone. What I was questioning was the aspect of managing the summons using different actions (which if you are wanting them all to do different things and not group them into bunching collectives then that I feel would be taking away a lot from your party and take a vast amount of time, agreeably.) that are part of a collective group being a higher challenge. If you group say 16 summons into even groups of 4 and they are all the same thing then you can still do a multiple of rolls on an app, or something like a Roll20, or even as you stated spreadsheet then add their modifiers to each, just as you would attacks and dmg. Doing something of that nature should not be more of an extreme challenge to the player, if managed well.
I’ve seen one person in my four decades of gaming manage to play a summoner and not add appreciable time to his turn. One person. So, I’m not going to sit here and argue that it can’t be done. It is just extraordinarily unlikely that any of the next ten people who ask will be able to do it.
I dont understand; if you have them all on the same initiative and use a dice roller app for multi rolls you can make even 10 puppets in a turn take only a few seconds.
if you have them on the same initiative AND attacking creatures who have the same difficulty to hit AND the GM shares what that difficulty is AND you aren’t the kind of person to get overwhelmed by options AND ..
Hmm I never even realized they don't all share the same Initiative for the spell, we've always just ran that they do at my tables. Thanks for pointing that out. As for the rest I don't see why you wouldnt and why the DM wouldn't share it once you're hitting with lots of things. That can really slow things down if it isn't. I mean an easy out it roll all at the same time and then the dmg die of those that hit and make it easy. I have a summoning druid that uses velociraptors for its conjure (yes the DM is awesome on letting me pick them) I use Avrae to roll all 8 atks at adv x2 and dmg and still only takes maybe a minute or 2. Plus if you get overwhelmed with options I doubt you'd be playing a "summoner" type pc.
TL;DR there are easy solutions if you work with the DM on it.
As the DM, my "work with it" would be to tell you up front that I don't want that crap bogging down my game and I am 100% going to clear those zombies with AOE and extreme prejudice. That would be the standard answer for /all/ summoners. No, I am not going to deal with your minion army in a manner that you find acceptable.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I know I’ve said it twice already. but I don’t think being able to summon 8 creatures at a time whose actions are limited to
1.) taking up a space
2.) moving
3.) helping
and who can take a single hit.before dieing.
would be a problem
as for being able to summon a single creature with a spell, I want summoning to be a bit more powerful compared to other spells of its level, I want it to be able to summon interesting, colorful, eldritch horrors, and I want summoning these things to be dangerous to the caster with the risk of losing control of it. When the creature is uncontrolled, I don’t want it turning on the caster’s party members, I want it turning on the caster.
I know I’ve said it twice already. but I don’t think being able to summon 8 creatures at a time whose actions are limited to
1.) taking up a space
2.) moving
3.) helping
and who can take a single hit.before dieing.
would be a problem
as for being able to summon a single creature with a spell, I want summoning to be a bit more powerful compared to other spells of its level, I want it to be able to summon interesting, colorful, eldritch horrors, and I want summoning these things to be dangerous to the caster with the risk of losing control of it. When the creature is uncontrolled, I don’t want it turning on the caster’s party members, I want it turning on the caster.
I have no issues with single target minions. It's minion armies that I am opposed to.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
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This dangerous, dead raising spellcaster is one of my favorite type of wizard. For the necromancer's spells, click here.
I am a noob DM and almost always a player. I love cats and want to be a super DM. Also I think that ostriches are cool.
p.s. teiflings make good wizards and the DMs guide is super helpful. So is the player's handbook.
Getting the spell of summon Undead makes this subclass so much more useful now. Plus for how it appears it seems that using summon undead summon to kill something will trigger the necromancers healing ability too, which makes it extra nice.
Also the spell list you posted seems to be the homebrew spell list, not the official one. I wasnt sure if that was intentional or not.
Having undead minions is nice, just don't forget the practical consequences of that. That would include how long it takes to send each undead through a doorway if adventuring inside. It includes rolling countless to hits as other players want to peel your eyeballs like grapes. So forth and so on.
I think besides party conflict and city walking reasons, Necromancers are really great. I started playing a Diviner myself, but due to RP, he became a Necromancer at level 5. Now he is trying to prove to his allies that although unnatural, death arcane knowledge can be used for justice and etc.
To avoid issues, my DM changed Animate Dead from 1 minute to 1 action casting and allowed me to create several undead from one corpse, that doesn’t need to be Humanoid. This helped me a lot to manage undead army.
Web/Slow + 4 Skeletons archers have been a blast!
Zombies and Stinking Cloud is a great combo for a 5th level Necro as well. Just have the zombies dog pile the enemy inside the Stinking Cloud. It is a poor man’s Eobard’s.
Well well well, thank you for commenting that and adding to my vast collection of Google Docs full of my undead army tactics, plans, and attack combos.
Can you share this with us? Would love to take a look.
I dont understand; if you have them all on the same initiative and use a dice roller app for multi rolls you can make even 10 puppets in a turn take only a few seconds.
if you have them on the same initiative AND attacking creatures who have the same difficulty to hit AND the GM shares what that difficulty is AND you aren’t the kind of person to get overwhelmed by options AND ..
Hmm I never even realized they don't all share the same Initiative for the spell, we've always just ran that they do at my tables. Thanks for pointing that out. As for the rest I don't see why you wouldnt and why the DM wouldn't share it once you're hitting with lots of things. That can really slow things down if it isn't. I mean an easy out it roll all at the same time and then the dmg die of those that hit and make it easy. I have a summoning druid that uses velociraptors for its conjure (yes the DM is awesome on letting me pick them) I use Avrae to roll all 8 atks at adv x2 and dmg and still only takes maybe a minute or 2. Plus if you get overwhelmed with options I doubt you'd be playing a "summoner" type pc.
TL;DR there are easy solutions if you work with the DM on it.
Okay, so you hit. You also roll damage all at once using a spreadsheet or something. You have to roll saves, perception checks., track damage, modify to hits based on conditions, modify tactics (some of your creatures might use bows to attack the giant bat flying in the dark while one of your creatures is helping the rogue get advantage and sneak attack dice and the rest of youur characters have drawn their swords and are attacking the enemy who has gotten past the fighters and are attacking you.).
Right? So still using similar tactics for all of it to keep things moving. I'm sorry I'm truly not following if this is meant to be considered more of a challenge or not. Also unsure if we both are saying the same thing just slightly different wording.
I agree; “Summon Undead Spirit” has brought me back to the Necromancy Wizard again.
The “ghostly” spirit especially interests me...it mixes up the typical “zombie” or “skeleton” summons other spells provides.
I like to flavor it as the Wizard’s shadow or soul emanating from their body to lash out at enemies.
Side note: the new “Create Magen” spell is particularly nasty for Necromancy Wizards, because they cannot have their HP reduced...so it’s another powerful ally with no down side.
I posted first, so if it is a challenge, then you are challenging me.
My point is simply this, even if you have a spreadsheet or something, managing 16 zerglings is going to take time and will annoy the other players. That is unless you tightly restrict what these zerglings do (such as have them all do the same thing) in which case you lose a lot of the utility of bringing a lot of little guys onto the map.
What? I mentioned nothing about challenging anyone. What I was questioning was the aspect of managing the summons using different actions (which if you are wanting them all to do different things and not group them into bunching collectives then that I feel would be taking away a lot from your party and take a vast amount of time, agreeably.) that are part of a collective group being a higher challenge. If you group say 16 summons into even groups of 4 and they are all the same thing then you can still do a multiple of rolls on an app, or something like a Roll20, or even as you stated spreadsheet then add their modifiers to each, just as you would attacks and dmg. Doing something of that nature should not be more of an extreme challenge to the player, if managed well.
I’ve seen one person in my four decades of gaming manage to play a summoner and not add appreciable time to his turn. One person. So, I’m not going to sit here and argue that it can’t be done. It is just extraordinarily unlikely that any of the next ten people who ask will be able to do it.
At the end of the day, it is the GM’s decision.
0.o holy cr@p!! Seriously?! Thats insane!!
As the DM, my "work with it" would be to tell you up front that I don't want that crap bogging down my game and I am 100% going to clear those zombies with AOE and extreme prejudice. That would be the standard answer for /all/ summoners. No, I am not going to deal with your minion army in a manner that you find acceptable.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I know I’ve said it twice already. but I don’t think being able to summon 8 creatures at a time whose actions are limited to
1.) taking up a space
2.) moving
3.) helping
and who can take a single hit.before dieing.
would be a problem
as for being able to summon a single creature with a spell, I want summoning to be a bit more powerful compared to other spells of its level, I want it to be able to summon interesting, colorful, eldritch horrors, and I want summoning these things to be dangerous to the caster with the risk of losing control of it. When the creature is uncontrolled, I don’t want it turning on the caster’s party members, I want it turning on the caster.
I have no issues with single target minions. It's minion armies that I am opposed to.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha