For some reason on my characters, the magical secrets spells are counting against the total spells known. I've made 3 different (then deleted) and it's done it to all of them. That leaves me with only 16 spells I can learn from the bard list. 

If it's suppose to be this way, then my additional magical secrets as a Lore bard are not being counted.

Magical Secrets must count against the total number of spells known because the description says that those spells are included in the bard spell progression.

Additional Magical Secrets, being a feature for a Lore Bard only, is not included in the bard spell progression, so those spells do not count.

So it was incorrect before? I just noticed today it changed in the character builder.

So this means all bards only get 16 spells from the bard list? 

Ah then I guess I need to report that it's been bugging and allowing more spells to be added as I previously would have had 28 spells prior to today.

Quote from Mordrimbor>>

This doesn't track. The bard learns one spell per level up, and starts with four. That means, by the time they have reached 10th level, they know 13 spells already, or 12 if you argue that selecting the new spell to learn comes after Magical Secrets. Nothing in the Magical Secrets ability says that the bard must replace spells known, but that becomes necessary to remain under the 14 spells known limit, regardless of how you slice learning your 10th level spell. 10th level is not stated as one of the exception levels where you do not learn an additional spell as per the Bard's spellcasting rules; this means that the Bard should know 15 spells at 10th level. The other levels at which Magical Secrets are gained are also not excepted by the spellcasting description from learning an additional bard spell, meaning that a bard should know 24 spells by level 20, or 26 if a Lore Bard. 

Quote from Davedamon >>

Quote from Mordrimbor>>

This doesn't track. The bard learns one spell per level up, and starts with four. That means, by the time they have reached 10th level, they know 13 spells already, or 12 if you argue that selecting the new spell to learn comes after Magical Secrets. Nothing in the Magical Secrets ability says that the bard must replace spells known, but that becomes necessary to remain under the 14 spells known limit, regardless of how you slice learning your 10th level spell. 10th level is not stated as one of the exception levels where you do not learn an additional spell as per the Bard's spellcasting rules; this means that the Bard should know 15 spells at 10th level. The other levels at which Magical Secrets are gained are also not excepted by the spellcasting description from learning an additional bard spell, meaning that a bard should know 24 spells by level 20, or 26 if a Lore Bard. 

Bards don't learn 1 spell per level up for every level, at some levels it jumps (they get 2 spells at 10th, 14th and 18th, their Magical Secret levels, and no spells from level 18 onward).

At 10th level a Bard knows 14 spells, per their class table 'Spells Known' column.

Magical secrets explicitly counts towards those 14 spells

The chosen spells count as bard spells for you and are included in the number in the Spells Known column of the Bard table.

That means a 10th level bard can know between 12 and 14 bard spells, making up the rest to 14 with non-bard spells using Magical Secrets (ie 12 bard, 2 something else, 13 bard, 1 something else or 14 bard, 0 anything else).

So on going from level 9 to 10, you get 2 more spells known, and also have the freedom to pick those two spells from another classes list.

 

 So, thankfully I still have a PDF of the original, un-ninja-errata'd version, which states this:

"Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher

You know four 1st-level Spells of your choice from the bard spell list.

You learn an additional bard spell of your choice at each level except 12th, 16th, 19th, and 20th. Each of these Spells must be of a level for which you have Spell Slots. For instance, when you reach 3rd level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level.

Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the Bard Spells you know and replace it with another spell from the bard spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have Spell Slots."

So, it looks like they did some errata at some point and changed the objective statement of how many spells known you gain to just a reference to the table, rather than fixing the table, which ended in a nerf to all bards. 

Yet another reason to use paper.

I don't know where you're getting this information from in your 'PDF of the original' (considering there has never been a legal PDF of the players handbook). My physical copy of the Players' Handbook (a copy that doesn't include any errata) says the exact same thing as what is present on D&D Beyond, and the SRD.

It seems like you're referencing something that is out of date and likely unofficial, which is another reason to use official products...

Quote from Davedamon >>

I don't know where you're getting this information from in your 'PDF of the original' (considering there has never been a legal PDF of the players handbook). My physical copy of the Players' Handbook (a copy that doesn't include any errata) says the exact same thing as what is present on D&D Beyond, and the SRD.

It seems like you're referencing something that is out of date and likely unofficial, which is another reason to use official products...

 "Out of date" is not applicable. I don't play at Crawford's table, so I don't need to use his "official updates". 

This isn't an update though, that picture is from a first printing of the PHB with no changes or errata. What you're referencing never existed in the PHB.

What's your point here? Other than complaining Bards got a nerf compared to some made up wording from an alleged PDF?

I agree that I don’t see that wording in the PHB, but it’s got to be coming from somewhere, searching it as a quote brings up multiple open resources, including the Roll20 compendium.

Looks like the roll20 compendium is inaccurate in that case, possibly still going off the D&D next playtest material maybe? I checked the printing serial number of my PHB and it's definitely first print run. My fiancees copy, which is 8th print run, says the same thing.

Quote from Davedamon >>

Looks like the roll20 compendium is inaccurate in that case, possibly still going off the D&D next playtest material maybe? I checked the printing serial number of my PHB and it's definitely first print run. My fiancees copy, which is 8th print run, says the same thing.

 Or maybe an early version of the Basic Rules or SRD?  The fact that I can see it when I’ve not purchased anything from Roll 20, and that it only mentions the Lore bard, suggests it may be from one of those sources. That would explain it being from a PDF. 

Something like that. Roll20 wasn't the only one, just the only other one I recognized off the top of my head as having a license of some sort with Wizards, and therefore increased motivation to have the correct wording. But it's not from the SRD, if I found the right version on wizards.com.

Either way, the spell table still matches the PHB, it's just as they said, the table auto-calculates in the Magical Secrets spells. So they're technically right in that regard: general rule, bards learn one bard spell per level; specific rule, bards learn any two spells of a level they now know AND they count as bard spells at 10/14/18 (even more specific rule: at L6 lore bards get two MORE spells of level they know AND they count as bard spells BUT NOT against their number of spells known).

The magical secrets section matches word-for-word, though, including reference to a table. Without a reference to a table, it may be possible to interpret learning 'two additional spells' as learning 1 bard spell (general rule) plus two MORE spells (ie, 3 total) at certain levels. That'd be my best guess to what's going on, but it's mot if there is indeed a table, and in the fact that the most up-to-date SRD and the PHB both have a table and elide the quoted text.

 Yeah, seems be a case of if you pick and choose what sources you listen to, you're going to get confused.

Per the oldest instance of the PHB, Magical Secrets work as I described above; you get to learn two new spells at that level, which may be outside the bard spell list if you use the Magical Secrets feature.

in my PHB lore bard:

"but don't count against the number of bard spells you know" for lore bards at level 6. 

Quote from Menwy >>

in my PHB lore bard:

"but don't count against the number of bard spells you know" for lore bards at level 6. 

 Take a look at the second post in this thread:  filcat explains that.  Lore bard's additional magical secrets is different than the standard magical secrets that all bards get at certain levels.

 For level 10 magical secrets, I do think it is done a little wrong despite what everyone has been saying, but only for one reason. When you reach level 10 as a bard to get to add a 4th cantrip as a feature of the bard's class. But if you take a cantrip as part of Magical secrets you don't get to add another bard cantrip, but if you don't take a cantrip as part of Magic Secrets at 10th level, you get two spells from levels 1-5 and get to add a cantrip from the bard spell list.

Technically, we should be able to add a cantrip from our bard spell list and add two spells cantrip through 5th level but currently we cannot. https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/bard#TheBardTable shows that we gain a cantrip at level 10 that is outside magical secrets. So either, we take a bard cantrip and two level spells or, with they way Magical Secrets is listed at level 10, we only get 1 cantrip and one more spell.

I'm pretty sure most people would rather take a bard cantrip and 2 more spells, rather than a cantip outside the bard spell list and 1 more spell.