Basically there's no way to reliably distribute codes that meets the following conditions:
Allows consumers to flip through books
Actively prevents theft
Can be physically tied to a purchase
1. just have one book always unwrapped, they keep the code (which is printed on a paper insert) in the register, someone can still buy it and get both, I know, you say but "pocketing code cards is a known problem in retail environments" - not if you have employees you trust.
2. I can argue that nothing in retail actively prevents theft of the entire book either, so that isn't a valid argument against it
3. You keep them in a shrinkwrapped book, that pretty much guarantees they either bought or stole the book, and it helps curtail the secondary market for people who want both. Why buy used for half the price if you are going to spend twice as much to get it in physical and digital.
Gentleman, you're missing the point entirely.
Sure, your solution would be great for a Wizards of the Coast flagship store, where all the conditions are easily controlled. But what about the random mom & dad's bookstore in the corner? Or a Tabletop game store in the other hemisphere? Do you really think that shop owners want to:
1. Order extra store copies to be flipped through (with no retail value) (or that WotC would want to sell those at a loss) 2. Ensure all books with redeemable codes are sealed in shrink-wrapping paper like huge Magic cards 3. Operate an activation software on their POS to enable sold redeemable codes (like Netflix gift cards) 4. Put their employees through special training
... just to sell a few D&D books?
Let's also remember that WotC and DDB are different companies. What if DDB closes tomorrow, and now you have tons of books with a redeemable code and an extra price tag? Should WotC risk that much? Why?
Anyhow, I like your desire to try to come up with a solution, but if one exists it should be a simple and straightforward one, and not trying to over-engineer a 256 pages book.
1. Order extra store copies to be flipped through (with no retail value) (or that WotC would want to sell those at a loss) 2. Ensure all books with redeemable codes are sealed in shrink-wrapping paper like huge Magic cards 3. Operate an activation software on their POS to enable sold redeemable codes (like Netflix gift cards) 4. Put their employees through special training
... just to sell a few D&D books?
I really think you guys are over complicating this. None of what you said would be required.
There are no extra copies, no selling at a loss, there is no extra effort on the retailer, there is no activation software or special training.
Its a book. It has shrink wrap , inside there is a single piece of paper with a code. If the retailer wants something for people to flip through, they open one, slip the paper under the register and give it to the customer when they sell the book.
How is that complicated? My 10 year niece could follow that logic. Why are you guys acting like I am suggesting retailers become rocket scientist?
Its a suggestion, you either like it or you don’t. Why do have to invent all these steps you think would be required?
Blueray movies have been sold with codes for digital copies for years. Retailers didn’t loose their shit when it happened. For them nothing changed.
Yeah, WoTC and DDB are different companies, so what? Companies work together ALL THE TIME. It is in both their interest to satisfy their customers and you know what everyone I play with likes? The idea of not buying the same thing twice. Maybe you like spending more money to buy something twice, I don’t and have not bought the physical books because if it is a decision between a physical book or a book I can access from any internet connected computer in the world, or my iPad (even when I have no internet) and the latter wins that every time.
Box sets for the modules that include the book, the Dice/Maps & Miscellany Set, and an unlock code for DDB Like the Essentials Kit but with a hardcover adventure(s) book instead of the softcover adventure and rules books
I would be down for that, they could partner with Paizo to make the main maps flip mat style, include paper versions of others, but they could still also sell the books stand alone with a code.
Or (wait for the madness) they could sell BOTH normal, book-only books AND shrink-wrapped books or boxed sets WITH the DDB code at a higher price.
I know, madness, right?
Sarcasm aside, it seem you all are considering the two things mutually exclusive, while in truth they are complementary offers. A retailer would not incur any downside (one could even go as far as ordering only a few book-only versions and then make it very clear a version with the DDB code can be available on client order) and everyone is happy.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Jmonteiro absolutely nailed it. Retailers simply can't put that much effort into something that won't benefit them in any way. People are fickle, stupid animals and expecting any more from them is pointless. They won't buy the shrink wrapped books if they can't flip through them, retailers don't want to invest in a copy they can't sell, having separate books with codes and books without results in more skus to keep track of, which ultimately costs more money. WotC already puts some fairly significant demands on retailers selling their products, this would be an additional burden.
I really, really want to be able to redeem my hard copies for digital ones, ESPECIALLY the maps, however I'm reading a lot of answers from folk that clearly haven't actually worked retail.
Customers. Are. Idiots. Catering to them costs far more than buying a few extra books.
Or (wait for the madness) they could sell BOTH normal, book-only books AND shrink-wrapped books or boxed sets WITH the DDB code at a higher price.
I know, madness, right?
Sarcasm aside, it seem you all are considering the two things mutually exclusive, while in truth they are complementary offers. A retailer would not incur any downside (one could even go as far as ordering only a few book-only versions and then make it very clear a version with the DDB code can be available on client order) and everyone is happy.
That could work too, though it is an extra step that I think would be unnecessary unless they try only wrapped books and find a large percentage of consumers who want ONLY the book.
Or (wait for the madness) they could sell BOTH normal, book-only books AND shrink-wrapped books or boxed sets WITH the DDB code at a higher price.
I know, madness, right?
Sarcasm aside, it seem you all are considering the two things mutually exclusive, while in truth they are complementary offers. A retailer would not incur any downside (one could even go as far as ordering only a few book-only versions and then make it very clear a version with the DDB code can be available on client order) and everyone is happy.
That could work too, though it is an extra step that I think would be unnecessary unless they try only wrapped books and find a large percentage of consumers who want ONLY the book.
I believe there will always be market for book-only, especially if they cost less than the bundle.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Screw it, people act like adding a code to a book is a harder problem than landing on Mars. Just sell the damn thing online that way and let the brick and mortar sales decline over the course of a year or two until they stagnate and die once everyone who buys the books in store finds out they can buy it from WoTC and get a digital version included. Sure, you have people who only ever buy the books, but that is a shrinking market.
1. Order extra store copies to be flipped through (with no retail value) (or that WotC would want to sell those at a loss) 2. Ensure all books with redeemable codes are sealed in shrink-wrapping paper like huge Magic cards 3. Operate an activation software on their POS to enable sold redeemable codes (like Netflix gift cards) 4. Put their employees through special training
... just to sell a few D&D books?
I really think you guys are over complicating this. None of what you said would be required.
There are no extra copies, no selling at a loss, there is no extra effort on the retailer, there is no activation software or special training.
Its a book. It has shrink wrap , inside there is a single piece of paper with a code. If the retailer wants something for people to flip through, they open one, slip the paper under the register and give it to the customer when they sell the book.
How is that complicated? My 10 year niece could follow that logic. Why are you guys acting like I am suggesting retailers become rocket scientist?
Its a suggestion, you either like it or you don’t. Why do have to invent all these steps you think would be required?
Blueray movies have been sold with codes for digital copies for years. Retailers didn’t loose their shit when it happened. For them nothing changed.
Yeah, WoTC and DDB are different companies, so what? Companies work together ALL THE TIME. It is in both their interest to satisfy their customers and you know what everyone I play with likes? The idea of not buying the same thing twice. Maybe you like spending more money to buy something twice, I don’t and have not bought the physical books because if it is a decision between a physical book or a book I can access from any internet connected computer in the world, or my iPad (even when I have no internet) and the latter wins that every time.
The sad thing is that I'm not over complicating. I'm presenting you the bare minimum to enable this in the real world, on the retail scenario in western countries.
1. You're mentioning that you want to train retailers to keep the books sealed, and IF open they must work to hide the redeemable code otherwise their product will immediately decrease in value. Although this is simple, it doesn't work for scale.
2. Shrinking-wrapping doesn't work for books to preserve contents. If you want redeemable codes to stay hidden, you'll either need to have a retail use an activation software (like they do for Amazon giftcards, etc), or will need to put it inside a box. Go to a book store tomorrow, find a book that's wrapped, unwrap it and see what happens: nothing.
3. Putting it inside a box greatly increases the cost. Books are ~$50 each (although usually at ~$30 for retail) being mass printed and not featuring a box.
I appreciate your effort to try to improve this, and I'm not saying it won't work in any way, I'm saying that according to my personal experience it will not work. You're totally free to disagree with me, I respect your opinion.
I think the easiest solution is to offer two different product lines.
one regular book open and able to be browsed.
One sealed book and has shrink wrap with an extra security measure of a code inside the cover.
This would allow tracking for either product.
Keeps the cost down for boxes.
Allows retailers to decide if they want to order either product or both.
The package could be priced at a higher price since you are getting two copies of the book. This would also allow for special ordering so the smaller mom and pop shops wouldn’t have to try to change anything up.
So I've participating in a few bookish giveaways where the prerequisite to qualify for the giveaway is pre-ordering a specific book. How do you prove you pre-ordered it? You send in your order number and a screenshot confirming the purchase.
Why not use that method? Have people enter in their order # / receipt # and a screenshot or scan of their receipt to prove they purchased it to gain access to the digital content? Maybe with a small fee because I understand that hosting the content costs DnDBeyond money, but at least this way we don't essentially have to purchase the same book twice.
And it also solves the problem of people who already have the books not having access to new redeemable codes.
So I've participating in a few bookish giveaways where the prerequisite to qualify for the giveaway is pre-ordering a specific book. How do you prove you pre-ordered it? You send in your order number and a screenshot confirming the purchase.
Why not use that method? Have people enter in their order # / receipt # and a screenshot or scan of their receipt to prove they purchased it to gain access to the digital content? Maybe with a small fee because I understand that hosting the content costs DnDBeyond money, but at least this way we don't essentially have to purchase the same book twice.
And it also solves the problem of people who already have the books not having access to new redeemable codes.
How many different order #/receipt # systems are there out there scattered among FLGSs, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc.? How would DDB verify a valid order #/receipt# when there are a nearly infinite number of numbering systems and databases for such orders and receipts? Who verifies that 15 people didn’t submit the same receipt? Would this apply to DDB, Fantasy Grounds, Roll 20, and any other online entity with a license agreement with Wizards?
In the end, though, even if all those logistics can be settled, the even bigger impediment is that Wizards of the Coast isn’t willing to do it. If you want to make an argument for that to change, you need to submit your request to Wizards of the Coast, not DDB, which is a different company, and which has to pay licensing fees to Wizards for the content they sell. (So even if their license with Wizards allowed them to do what you suggest, they would lose money doing so because they’d have to pay license fees to Wizards for the content they offered this way.)
You could do a program, where you take a picture of receipt and they send you a code Pampers does this with thier reward scheme you send a picture of the whole reciept, it picks up things thay identify receipt so can't be used again.
Personally my opinion has changed on this issue. I think that the books sold at LGS should come with a discount code for redemption on DDB. Whereas the books sold by a non WPN store would have no code. Would give a nice little advantage to the LGS and encourage players to support their local store. You could have the codes controlled by the LGS. Since this would be WPN only the whole pocketing the codes thing by employees wouldn't happen. All it takes is one person who gets an already redeemed code to call WOTC and they could potentially loose the ability to sell anything WOTC.
Perhaps the solution isn't a full shrinkwrap, but rather a plastic package that lets you browse through the book, mounted to the back cover. They could include a redeemable code, character sheets (blank and premade), a set of dice, and perhaps even a set of basic minis/maps pre-printed. That seems to solve the problem of how to store the code, and provides a few basic accessories that will encourage new players to get started. It will definitely increase price a bit, but if I were into buying physical copies that would definitely increase their appeal enough to justify it.
Adventures, especially, could provide minis for a few key NPCs/monsters that show up. Would definitely increase people's desire for the physical copies. Same approach with monster manuals and some other sourcebooks.
Kindof as an aside, I wonder how many physical copies are sold in Brick n Mortar stores any more compared to online sellers? Amazon being the obvious one but there are a lot of specialists as well. I think you can safely say, that online is generally significantly discounted on RRP which Brick n Mortar shops generally use. Amazon can easily handle some sort of code system, and do so all the time for console and PC games. Preorder codes etc.
Personally I think that the sale of physical books is going to greatly diminish and perhaps fade away in general in favour of services like DnD Beyond. I'm still buying physical copies but to be honest, I don't use them other than for decoration on my shelves. The tools on digital make it so much more powerful than dead tree.
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Yes, this is a great idea, I'd love to see one of those.
But bear in mind that would be like the "gift sets" they have with all the core books, but with some extra stuff. It wouldn't be replacing the books.
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ModeratorOf course. People still need the option of buying just the book alone.
Beat my rolls. I dare you.
Gentleman, you're missing the point entirely.
Sure, your solution would be great for a Wizards of the Coast flagship store, where all the conditions are easily controlled. But what about the random mom & dad's bookstore in the corner? Or a Tabletop game store in the other hemisphere? Do you really think that shop owners want to:
1. Order extra store copies to be flipped through (with no retail value) (or that WotC would want to sell those at a loss)
2. Ensure all books with redeemable codes are sealed in shrink-wrapping paper like huge Magic cards
3. Operate an activation software on their POS to enable sold redeemable codes (like Netflix gift cards)
4. Put their employees through special training
... just to sell a few D&D books?
Let's also remember that WotC and DDB are different companies. What if DDB closes tomorrow, and now you have tons of books with a redeemable code and an extra price tag? Should WotC risk that much? Why?
Anyhow, I like your desire to try to come up with a solution, but if one exists it should be a simple and straightforward one, and not trying to over-engineer a 256 pages book.
I really think you guys are over complicating this. None of what you said would be required.
There are no extra copies, no selling at a loss, there is no extra effort on the retailer, there is no activation software or special training.
Its a book. It has shrink wrap , inside there is a single piece of paper with a code. If the retailer wants something for people to flip through, they open one, slip the paper under the register and give it to the customer when they sell the book.
How is that complicated? My 10 year niece could follow that logic. Why are you guys acting like I am suggesting retailers become rocket scientist?
Its a suggestion, you either like it or you don’t. Why do have to invent all these steps you think would be required?
Blueray movies have been sold with codes for digital copies for years. Retailers didn’t loose their shit when it happened. For them nothing changed.
Yeah, WoTC and DDB are different companies, so what? Companies work together ALL THE TIME. It is in both their interest to satisfy their customers and you know what everyone I play with likes? The idea of not buying the same thing twice. Maybe you like spending more money to buy something twice, I don’t and have not bought the physical books because if it is a decision between a physical book or a book I can access from any internet connected computer in the world, or my iPad (even when I have no internet) and the latter wins that every time.
I would be down for that, they could partner with Paizo to make the main maps flip mat style, include paper versions of others, but they could still also sell the books stand alone with a code.
Or (wait for the madness) they could sell BOTH normal, book-only books AND shrink-wrapped books or boxed sets WITH the DDB code at a higher price.
I know, madness, right?
Sarcasm aside, it seem you all are considering the two things mutually exclusive, while in truth they are complementary offers.
A retailer would not incur any downside (one could even go as far as ordering only a few book-only versions and then make it very clear a version with the DDB code can be available on client order) and everyone is happy.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Jmonteiro absolutely nailed it. Retailers simply can't put that much effort into something that won't benefit them in any way. People are fickle, stupid animals and expecting any more from them is pointless. They won't buy the shrink wrapped books if they can't flip through them, retailers don't want to invest in a copy they can't sell, having separate books with codes and books without results in more skus to keep track of, which ultimately costs more money. WotC already puts some fairly significant demands on retailers selling their products, this would be an additional burden.
I really, really want to be able to redeem my hard copies for digital ones, ESPECIALLY the maps, however I'm reading a lot of answers from folk that clearly haven't actually worked retail.
Customers. Are. Idiots. Catering to them costs far more than buying a few extra books.
That could work too, though it is an extra step that I think would be unnecessary unless they try only wrapped books and find a large percentage of consumers who want ONLY the book.
I believe there will always be market for book-only, especially if they cost less than the bundle.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Screw it, people act like adding a code to a book is a harder problem than landing on Mars. Just sell the damn thing online that way and let the brick and mortar sales decline over the course of a year or two until they stagnate and die once everyone who buys the books in store finds out they can buy it from WoTC and get a digital version included. Sure, you have people who only ever buy the books, but that is a shrinking market.
Depending on the cost sure, but if they get it down to less than $5 no. I think most consumers would be ok with even $10.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/42100-how-much-would-you-pay-to-get-both-a-physical-book
The sad thing is that I'm not over complicating. I'm presenting you the bare minimum to enable this in the real world, on the retail scenario in western countries.
1. You're mentioning that you want to train retailers to keep the books sealed, and IF open they must work to hide the redeemable code otherwise their product will immediately decrease in value. Although this is simple, it doesn't work for scale.
2. Shrinking-wrapping doesn't work for books to preserve contents. If you want redeemable codes to stay hidden, you'll either need to have a retail use an activation software (like they do for Amazon giftcards, etc), or will need to put it inside a box. Go to a book store tomorrow, find a book that's wrapped, unwrap it and see what happens: nothing.
3. Putting it inside a box greatly increases the cost. Books are ~$50 each (although usually at ~$30 for retail) being mass printed and not featuring a box.
I appreciate your effort to try to improve this, and I'm not saying it won't work in any way, I'm saying that according to my personal experience it will not work. You're totally free to disagree with me, I respect your opinion.
I think the easiest solution is to offer two different product lines.
one regular book open and able to be browsed.
One sealed book and has shrink wrap with an extra security measure of a code inside the cover.
This would allow tracking for either product.
Keeps the cost down for boxes.
Allows retailers to decide if they want to order either product or both.
The package could be priced at a higher price since you are getting two copies of the book. This would also allow for special ordering so the smaller mom and pop shops wouldn’t have to try to change anything up.
—sorry for formatting. All typed on a phone—
So I've participating in a few bookish giveaways where the prerequisite to qualify for the giveaway is pre-ordering a specific book. How do you prove you pre-ordered it? You send in your order number and a screenshot confirming the purchase.
Why not use that method? Have people enter in their order # / receipt # and a screenshot or scan of their receipt to prove they purchased it to gain access to the digital content? Maybe with a small fee because I understand that hosting the content costs DnDBeyond money, but at least this way we don't essentially have to purchase the same book twice.
And it also solves the problem of people who already have the books not having access to new redeemable codes.
Digital Character Artist
SM: @offbeatworlds
www.offbeatworlds.com
How many different order #/receipt # systems are there out there scattered among FLGSs, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc.? How would DDB verify a valid order #/receipt# when there are a nearly infinite number of numbering systems and databases for such orders and receipts? Who verifies that 15 people didn’t submit the same receipt? Would this apply to DDB, Fantasy Grounds, Roll 20, and any other online entity with a license agreement with Wizards?
In the end, though, even if all those logistics can be settled, the even bigger impediment is that Wizards of the Coast isn’t willing to do it. If you want to make an argument for that to change, you need to submit your request to Wizards of the Coast, not DDB, which is a different company, and which has to pay licensing fees to Wizards for the content they sell. (So even if their license with Wizards allowed them to do what you suggest, they would lose money doing so because they’d have to pay license fees to Wizards for the content they offered this way.)
Trying to Decide if DDB is for you? A few helpful threads: A Buyer's Guide to DDB; What I/We Bought and Why; How some DMs use DDB; A Newer Thread on Using DDB to Play
Helpful threads on other topics: Homebrew FAQ by IamSposta; Accessing Content by ConalTheGreat;
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You could do a program, where you take a picture of receipt and they send you a code Pampers does this with thier reward scheme you send a picture of the whole reciept, it picks up things thay identify receipt so can't be used again.
Personally my opinion has changed on this issue. I think that the books sold at LGS should come with a discount code for redemption on DDB. Whereas the books sold by a non WPN store would have no code. Would give a nice little advantage to the LGS and encourage players to support their local store. You could have the codes controlled by the LGS. Since this would be WPN only the whole pocketing the codes thing by employees wouldn't happen. All it takes is one person who gets an already redeemed code to call WOTC and they could potentially loose the ability to sell anything WOTC.
Perhaps the solution isn't a full shrinkwrap, but rather a plastic package that lets you browse through the book, mounted to the back cover. They could include a redeemable code, character sheets (blank and premade), a set of dice, and perhaps even a set of basic minis/maps pre-printed. That seems to solve the problem of how to store the code, and provides a few basic accessories that will encourage new players to get started. It will definitely increase price a bit, but if I were into buying physical copies that would definitely increase their appeal enough to justify it.
Adventures, especially, could provide minis for a few key NPCs/monsters that show up. Would definitely increase people's desire for the physical copies. Same approach with monster manuals and some other sourcebooks.
Kindof as an aside, I wonder how many physical copies are sold in Brick n Mortar stores any more compared to online sellers? Amazon being the obvious one but there are a lot of specialists as well. I think you can safely say, that online is generally significantly discounted on RRP which Brick n Mortar shops generally use. Amazon can easily handle some sort of code system, and do so all the time for console and PC games. Preorder codes etc.
Personally I think that the sale of physical books is going to greatly diminish and perhaps fade away in general in favour of services like DnD Beyond. I'm still buying physical copies but to be honest, I don't use them other than for decoration on my shelves. The tools on digital make it so much more powerful than dead tree.