No joke, l just rolled 15,15,15,18,16,17 for my half elf wizard. With racial mods, its 15 Str, 18 Dex, 16 Con, 18 Int, 15 Wis, 18 Chr!!! This is my strongest character ever, and their only level one! This has to be the strongest wizard in existence! (in terms of the Str stat. Though at level 20, they will be very strong for other reasons)
Thank you, for once again, proving my point about why people roll for stats.
I created a dice-roller routine, and rolled 13 million sets of 4d6, drop the lowest, until I rolled a set of six 18's. I am sure I will find a DM willing to accept my 18's across the board.
I will absolutely accept that character into a game I run for you.
However, you will need to choose class, race, buy equipment, and unique back story for every character created before it. If you don't, they aren't legit.
Did I say the 13 millionth iteration? I meant the first iteration. The odds are the same.
Oh, thank you for telling me that I've been having fun incorrectly for years. It is so helpful. You know those fiendish Min-Maxers are just going to use PB and Custom Lineage to always get an 18 with a half feat, right?
Rolling dice can be fun when you're creating the character, but once everyone has their character, it's a source of problems. Since I spend a lot more time playing characters than creating them, I prefer to forgo the rolling dice part.
Though a different point buy might be nice. I liked 4e point buy, you could buy a starting 18 but it was expensive (7 points to go from a 16 to an 18).
Agreed. lf DDB gave us a expanded point buy, with us being able to go bewteen 3 & 18 (the min/max of 3 D6 drop lowest) with every stat starting at 8, but being able to gain points by lowering stats, l would be willing to go back to point buy.
Rolling dice can be fun when you're creating the character, but once everyone has their character, it's a source of problems.
Managed a helpdesk for years - it's more constructive to see opportunities than problems. An unusual statline - high or low, doesn't matter - can be as interesting for the DM to get creative with as for the player who rolled it and gets to create a character with it.
The problem with the OPs wizard is he will havwe better stealth the the rogue, better face skills than the bard, have better perception than the cleric and be as strong as the barbarian, this can make things much less fun for the rest of the party.
I don't moving away from point buy if it gets stale, for example one person rolls and everytone uses those stats as a non-standard array or if you want slightloy more powerful characters 31 point buy with a 16 ability score costing 12 points
The problem with the OPs wizard is he will havwe better stealth the the rogue, better face skills than the bard, have better perception than the cleric and be as strong as the barbarian, this can make things much less fun for the rest of the party.
Maybe one or two of those, very likely not all of them, given their class skill proficiency options being Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, and Religion and backgrounds typically offering just two skill proficiencies. Grups can also, you know, agree not to have their characters step on each other's toes.
Wizards also don't get expertise unless they multiclass or burn a feat for it, so the chances of them outdoing a rogue or bard in their skills aren't as high as it might appear to be at first glance. Barb sadly does not get any expertise for skills like athletics (which is a gross oversight in my humble opinion) but if ever they get to endgame level play (unlikely though it may be), features like Indomitable Might and Primal Champion do end up compensating for this.
Rolling dice can be fun when you're creating the character, but once everyone has their character, it's a source of problems.
Managed a helpdesk for years - it's more constructive to see opportunities than problems. An unusual statline - high or low, doesn't matter - can be as interesting for the DM to get creative with as for the player who rolled it and gets to create a character with it.
Um... a vast amount of helpdesk stuff amounts to "Instead of doing what you're doing, do this other thing that works better".
Rolling dice can be fun when you're creating the character, but once everyone has their character, it's a source of problems.
Managed a helpdesk for years - it's more constructive to see opportunities than problems. An unusual statline - high or low, doesn't matter - can be as interesting for the DM to get creative with as for the player who rolled it and gets to create a character with it.
Um... a vast amount of helpdesk stuff amounts to "Instead of doing what you're doing, do this other thing that works better".
And a vast amount of management stuff amounts to “the way we’ve been doing this sucks, let’s figure out a better way”. But even at the helpdesk level that applies - every case that comes in is a potential teachable moment for a customer, or an opportunity to optimize a system, or an indication there’s a process missing. There’s almost always something that might be done beyond just fixing the immediately apparent problem.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
And a vast amount of management stuff amounts to “the way we’ve been doing this sucks, let’s figure out a better way”. But even at the helpdesk level that applies - every case that comes in is a potential teachable moment for a customer, or an opportunity to optimize a system, or an indication there’s a process missing. There’s almost always something that might be done beyond just fixing the immediately apparent problem.
For example, the immediately apparent problem of "some of the players aren't having fun because they feel they've been forced to play the sidekicks" can be fixed by the process improvement of "stop rolling for stats".
The problem with the OPs wizard is he will havwe better stealth the the rogue, better face skills than the bard, have better perception than the cleric and be as strong as the barbarian, this can make things much less fun for the rest of the party.
Maybe one or two of those, very likely not all of them, given their class skill proficiency options being Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, and Religion and backgrounds typically offering just two skill proficiencies. Grups can also, you know, agree not to have their characters step on each other's toes.
Yeah, l had planed on haveing them be a quiet, bookish, wallflower, who was mostly there for arcane knowledge and reading stuff, with the added bonus of group usefull spells like feather fall or identify. With these stats, now they just wont suck at saveing throws, and will be useful in combat after 2 hits. (though, if l decide to go blade singer, that might change, but i'll give the party a choice on if im a scribe wallflower, or a swordsinging nerd.)
And a vast amount of management stuff amounts to “the way we’ve been doing this sucks, let’s figure out a better way”. But even at the helpdesk level that applies - every case that comes in is a potential teachable moment for a customer, or an opportunity to optimize a system, or an indication there’s a process missing. There’s almost always something that might be done beyond just fixing the immediately apparent problem.
For example, the immediately apparent problem of "some of the players aren't having fun because they feel they've been forced to play the sidekicks" can be fixed by the process improvement of "stop rolling for stats".
There are almost always players taking the lead and trying to hog the spotlight, or players creating far mor effective characters than others regardless of statline/ability generation method, or players having a bad luck streak in game, or players who lack the confidence to dive in and assert themselves, and a proverbial million other reasons players can feel like they’re reduced to sidekicks. “Stop rolling for stats” isn’t fixing those, or even a significant number of them. Giving them something to feel special about does. Showing them their involvement in the game matters to you as the DM does. Creating a space where they are important in the game does. “Stop rolling for stats” fixes the immediate problem of statline disparity, that’s all. And at the same time it wastes the opportunity to turn that disparity into something positive, which is a shame.
Per the PHB, the only true method of stat generation is rolling. Standard Array is only for those who are "Short on time" FOLLOW THE RULES PEOPLE ;)
@DnDNewper, I am happy for you that you get to play a character you enjoy. I'd encourage you to still play the same character you originally thought of, and then maybe you kind of lean in to the higher numbers on rare occasions. Don't let the fun police get you down. The guilt trips of "HOW IS YOUR DM GONNA BALANCE IT", well, let the DM figure it out. "I'D NEVER ALLOW THAT AT MY TABLE", well, it isn't your table. That horse has been beaten to death, resurrected, hit by a upcast magic missle and murdered again, turned into a horse-lich, had its horse phylactery stolen by Elminster, sent to Ebberon and finally reincarnated into one of the creation forges into a warforged for how much of a "Hot Take" this is.
I think this merits conversation, but I truly do not understand that in a tabletop game where a vast majority of things are decided by random number generators, that we don't want the player to also be determined by a random number generator. Pangurjan speaks to a couple of ways to balance, and there are countless others. It doesn't make sense to bring this level of hate for something that is ingrained into our game, over and over again. Let the dude roll, and let them be happy that they got a high roll. We'd celebrate a crit on an attack, why not celebrate this too?
There are almost always players taking the lead and trying to hog the spotlight, or players creating far mor effective characters than others regardless of statline/ability generation method, or players having a bad luck streak in game, or players who lack the confidence to dive in and assert themselves, and a proverbial million other reasons players can feel like they’re reduced to sidekicks. “Stop rolling for stats” isn’t fixing those, or even a significant number of them.
It is removing one of them, and it's easy to do. Why give yourself unnecessary headaches?
I think this merits conversation, but I truly do not understand that in a tabletop game where a vast majority of things are decided by random number generators, that we don't want the player to also be determined by a random number generator. Pangurjan speaks to a couple of ways to balance, and there are countless others. It doesn't make sense to bring this level of hate for something that is ingrained into our game, over and over again. Let the dude roll, and let them be happy that they got a high roll. We'd celebrate a crit on an attack, why not celebrate this too?
"Okay, at the start of the session, I'm going to number the PCs 1-6, roll a d6, and kill whichever PCs number comes up". Good gameplay or bad?
Yes, events in game are resolved by random die rolls, but for most things the number of die rolls is large enough for the randomness not to matter. Most campaigns don't create new characters often enough for the randomness to balance out, though if you expect everyone to go through a dozen PCs over the course of the game it will likely be fine, or if as a DM you just go ahead and kill PCs with stats that are out of line.
It's an issue of the weighting of the roll. A critical hit is really a very transient effect, but there's a reason save-or-die is mostly gone, it's because it's assigning too much weight to a single roll.
Per the PHB, the only true method of stat generation is rolling. Standard Array is only for those who are "Short on time" FOLLOW THE RULES PEOPLE ;)
@DnDNewper, I am happy for you that you get to play a character you enjoy. I'd encourage you to still play the same character you originally thought of, and then maybe you kind of lean in to the higher numbers on rare occasions. Don't let the fun police get you down. The guilt trips of "HOW IS YOUR DM GONNA BALANCE IT", well, let the DM figure it out. "I'D NEVER ALLOW THAT AT MY TABLE", well, it isn't your table. That horse has been beaten to death, resurrected, hit by a upcast magic missle and murdered again, turned into a horse-lich, had its horse phylactery stolen by Elminster, sent to Ebberon and finally reincarnated into one of the creation forges into a warforged for how much of a "Hot Take" this is.
I think this merits conversation, but I truly do not understand that in a tabletop game where a vast majority of things are decided by random number generators, that we don't want the player to also be determined by a random number generator. Pangurjan speaks to a couple of ways to balance, and there are countless others. It doesn't make sense to bring this level of hate for something that is ingrained into our game, over and over again. Let the dude roll, and let them be happy that they got a high roll. We'd celebrate a crit on an attack, why not celebrate this too?
l wish l could do more then give your comment a up vote. Thank you, not just for the words of encouragement that mirror my own thoughts, but for that fantastic horse abuse comment! Its not only beautiful, its also going to be the backstoy for my next warforge!
There are almost always players taking the lead and trying to hog the spotlight, or players creating far mor effective characters than others regardless of statline/ability generation method, or players having a bad luck streak in game, or players who lack the confidence to dive in and assert themselves, and a proverbial million other reasons players can feel like they’re reduced to sidekicks. “Stop rolling for stats” isn’t fixing those, or even a significant number of them.
It is removing one of them, and it's easy to do. Why give yourself unnecessary headaches?
Because to me they’re not headaches. That’s my honest answer. I said the same thing in that other thread about rolling for stats. It’s simply not a meaningful issue for me, as the DM. And for some groups there are advantages to rolling up statlines, advantages that to them outweigh whatever others might see as downsides. If you can look at it from that perspective, just for a second, surely you can see some - including me - not only have no reason to stop rolling stats for character creation, but reasons not to stop. If that’s not for you, that’s totally fine. You have other considerations, other priorities - you do you, whatever works best at your table. Bottom line is tables and groups differ. To each their own.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
No joke, l just rolled 15,15,15,18,16,17 for my half elf wizard. With racial mods, its 15 Str, 18 Dex, 16 Con, 18 Int, 15 Wis, 18 Chr!!! This is my strongest character ever, and their only level one! This has to be the strongest wizard in existence! (in terms of the Str stat. Though at level 20, they will be very strong for other reasons)
Thank you, for once again, proving my point about why people roll for stats.
I created a dice-roller routine, and rolled 13 million sets of 4d6, drop the lowest, until I rolled a set of six 18's. I am sure I will find a DM willing to accept my 18's across the board.
I will absolutely accept that character into a game I run for you.
However, you will need to choose class, race, buy equipment, and unique back story for every character created before it. If you don't, they aren't legit.
Did I say the 13 millionth iteration? I meant the first iteration. The odds are the same.
You're saying that out of 13 million rolls the very first one was all 18s? Truly Astounding!!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
The problem with the OPs wizard is he will havwe better stealth the the rogue, better face skills than the bard, have better perception than the cleric and be as strong as the barbarian, this can make things much less fun for the rest of the party.
Depends on the campaign. Generally speaking a Wizard would not have proficiency in those skills so no bonus. Some GMs don't even let you roll unless you have proficiency.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
"Okay, at the start of the session, I'm going to number the PCs 1-6, roll a d6, and kill whichever PCs number comes up". Good gameplay or bad?
Yes, events in game are resolved by random die rolls, but for most things the number of die rolls is large enough for the randomness not to matter. Most campaigns don't create new characters often enough for the randomness to balance out, though if you expect everyone to go through a dozen PCs over the course of the game it will likely be fine, or if as a DM you just go ahead and kill PCs with stats that are out of line.
It's an issue of the weighting of the roll. A critical hit is really a very transient effect, but there's a reason save-or-die is mostly gone, it's because it's assigning too much weight to a single roll.
Right, but a lot of those issues are going to be matters of adjudication, which come down to the DM, which come down to table dynamics. We all have WILDLY different ideas of what good D&D is, and that’s beautiful. Your idea is valid. My idea is valid. Vince's ideas are valid. They just are. We can disagree, but I think getting into the negativity on why it makes the game “Bad” is what takes it too far. Coming into this thread to go THIS IS WHAT MAKES THE GAME BAD, is too far. Anyone who frequents the D&D Beyond Discord knows I’m very vocal on calling out what I feel is busted homebrew, and I give opinions on it, but I always say yo, if you’re the DM, allow what you want in your game.
Maybe I’ve just been blessed with REALLY good players, or REALLY good DMs. I’ve played with teammates who had 18 stat man while I had an average joe, and I had a blast. I never felt that they were outshined me, but that was my outlook. I’ve had the 18 stat man, and others haven’t. What we did in that instance was to let everyone have the same array as me, that way no specific player felt like they got the short end of the stick. Does that make it harder for the DM? Honestly, not really, you just start at a higher tier of monsters as your group is recognized as a “Elite, but young group”. Those players are going to be drowning in feats, sure, but it also lets them really flesh out their character from a feat standpoint, which I’ve found HELPS the roleplay, because its easier for players to roleplay a mechanical effect than a standard social interaction.
They just aren’t problems that exist at my table, but I acknowledge they can exist. Run your tables how you want.
The highest stats I've ever seen rolled in front of me were 18 (XX) STR, 18 (XX) CON, 18 (XX) DEX, for 1e Cavalier. None of us had a problem playing with the guy.
It's up to you and your group whether you're going to have a good time or not.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
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Oh, thank you for telling me that I've been having fun incorrectly for years. It is so helpful. You know those fiendish Min-Maxers are just going to use PB and Custom Lineage to always get an 18 with a half feat, right?
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
Agreed. lf DDB gave us a expanded point buy, with us being able to go bewteen 3 & 18 (the min/max of 3 D6 drop lowest) with every stat starting at 8, but being able to gain points by lowering stats, l would be willing to go back to point buy.
Agreed
The problem with the OPs wizard is he will havwe better stealth the the rogue, better face skills than the bard, have better perception than the cleric and be as strong as the barbarian, this can make things much less fun for the rest of the party.
I don't moving away from point buy if it gets stale, for example one person rolls and everytone uses those stats as a non-standard array or if you want slightloy more powerful characters 31 point buy with a 16 ability score costing 12 points
I generally don't like rolling for stats, mainly because most of the time it feels like the universe is playing Numberwang with me...
Maybe one or two of those, very likely not all of them, given their class skill proficiency options being Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, and Religion and backgrounds typically offering just two skill proficiencies. Grups can also, you know, agree not to have their characters step on each other's toes.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Wizards also don't get expertise unless they multiclass or burn a feat for it, so the chances of them outdoing a rogue or bard in their skills aren't as high as it might appear to be at first glance. Barb sadly does not get any expertise for skills like athletics (which is a gross oversight in my humble opinion) but if ever they get to endgame level play (unlikely though it may be), features like Indomitable Might and Primal Champion do end up compensating for this.
Um... a vast amount of helpdesk stuff amounts to "Instead of doing what you're doing, do this other thing that works better".
And a vast amount of management stuff amounts to “the way we’ve been doing this sucks, let’s figure out a better way”. But even at the helpdesk level that applies - every case that comes in is a potential teachable moment for a customer, or an opportunity to optimize a system, or an indication there’s a process missing. There’s almost always something that might be done beyond just fixing the immediately apparent problem.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
For example, the immediately apparent problem of "some of the players aren't having fun because they feel they've been forced to play the sidekicks" can be fixed by the process improvement of "stop rolling for stats".
Yeah, l had planed on haveing them be a quiet, bookish, wallflower, who was mostly there for arcane knowledge and reading stuff, with the added bonus of group usefull spells like feather fall or identify. With these stats, now they just wont suck at saveing throws, and will be useful in combat after 2 hits. (though, if l decide to go blade singer, that might change, but i'll give the party a choice on if im a scribe wallflower, or a swordsinging nerd.)
There are almost always players taking the lead and trying to hog the spotlight, or players creating far mor effective characters than others regardless of statline/ability generation method, or players having a bad luck streak in game, or players who lack the confidence to dive in and assert themselves, and a proverbial million other reasons players can feel like they’re reduced to sidekicks. “Stop rolling for stats” isn’t fixing those, or even a significant number of them. Giving them something to feel special about does. Showing them their involvement in the game matters to you as the DM does. Creating a space where they are important in the game does. “Stop rolling for stats” fixes the immediate problem of statline disparity, that’s all. And at the same time it wastes the opportunity to turn that disparity into something positive, which is a shame.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Per the PHB, the only true method of stat generation is rolling. Standard Array is only for those who are "Short on time" FOLLOW THE RULES PEOPLE ;)
@DnDNewper, I am happy for you that you get to play a character you enjoy. I'd encourage you to still play the same character you originally thought of, and then maybe you kind of lean in to the higher numbers on rare occasions. Don't let the fun police get you down. The guilt trips of "HOW IS YOUR DM GONNA BALANCE IT", well, let the DM figure it out. "I'D NEVER ALLOW THAT AT MY TABLE", well, it isn't your table. That horse has been beaten to death, resurrected, hit by a upcast magic missle and murdered again, turned into a horse-lich, had its horse phylactery stolen by Elminster, sent to Ebberon and finally reincarnated into one of the creation forges into a warforged for how much of a "Hot Take" this is.
I think this merits conversation, but I truly do not understand that in a tabletop game where a vast majority of things are decided by random number generators, that we don't want the player to also be determined by a random number generator. Pangurjan speaks to a couple of ways to balance, and there are countless others. It doesn't make sense to bring this level of hate for something that is ingrained into our game, over and over again. Let the dude roll, and let them be happy that they got a high roll. We'd celebrate a crit on an attack, why not celebrate this too?
It is removing one of them, and it's easy to do. Why give yourself unnecessary headaches?
"Okay, at the start of the session, I'm going to number the PCs 1-6, roll a d6, and kill whichever PCs number comes up". Good gameplay or bad?
Yes, events in game are resolved by random die rolls, but for most things the number of die rolls is large enough for the randomness not to matter. Most campaigns don't create new characters often enough for the randomness to balance out, though if you expect everyone to go through a dozen PCs over the course of the game it will likely be fine, or if as a DM you just go ahead and kill PCs with stats that are out of line.
It's an issue of the weighting of the roll. A critical hit is really a very transient effect, but there's a reason save-or-die is mostly gone, it's because it's assigning too much weight to a single roll.
l wish l could do more then give your comment a up vote. Thank you, not just for the words of encouragement that mirror my own thoughts, but for that fantastic horse abuse comment! Its not only beautiful, its also going to be the backstoy for my next warforge!
Because to me they’re not headaches. That’s my honest answer. I said the same thing in that other thread about rolling for stats. It’s simply not a meaningful issue for me, as the DM. And for some groups there are advantages to rolling up statlines, advantages that to them outweigh whatever others might see as downsides. If you can look at it from that perspective, just for a second, surely you can see some - including me - not only have no reason to stop rolling stats for character creation, but reasons not to stop. If that’s not for you, that’s totally fine. You have other considerations, other priorities - you do you, whatever works best at your table. Bottom line is tables and groups differ. To each their own.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
You're saying that out of 13 million rolls the very first one was all 18s? Truly Astounding!!
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Depends on the campaign. Generally speaking a Wizard would not have proficiency in those skills so no bonus. Some GMs don't even let you roll unless you have proficiency.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Right, but a lot of those issues are going to be matters of adjudication, which come down to the DM, which come down to table dynamics. We all have WILDLY different ideas of what good D&D is, and that’s beautiful. Your idea is valid. My idea is valid. Vince's ideas are valid. They just are. We can disagree, but I think getting into the negativity on why it makes the game “Bad” is what takes it too far. Coming into this thread to go THIS IS WHAT MAKES THE GAME BAD, is too far. Anyone who frequents the D&D Beyond Discord knows I’m very vocal on calling out what I feel is busted homebrew, and I give opinions on it, but I always say yo, if you’re the DM, allow what you want in your game.
Maybe I’ve just been blessed with REALLY good players, or REALLY good DMs. I’ve played with teammates who had 18 stat man while I had an average joe, and I had a blast. I never felt that they were outshined me, but that was my outlook. I’ve had the 18 stat man, and others haven’t. What we did in that instance was to let everyone have the same array as me, that way no specific player felt like they got the short end of the stick. Does that make it harder for the DM? Honestly, not really, you just start at a higher tier of monsters as your group is recognized as a “Elite, but young group”. Those players are going to be drowning in feats, sure, but it also lets them really flesh out their character from a feat standpoint, which I’ve found HELPS the roleplay, because its easier for players to roleplay a mechanical effect than a standard social interaction.
They just aren’t problems that exist at my table, but I acknowledge they can exist. Run your tables how you want.
High rolled stats are really not that big a deal.
The highest stats I've ever seen rolled in front of me were 18 (XX) STR, 18 (XX) CON, 18 (XX) DEX, for 1e Cavalier. None of us had a problem playing with the guy.
It's up to you and your group whether you're going to have a good time or not.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale