Yeah, or maybe it's just the 7th encounter the party's faced that day and they're running dry on powers.
There's throwing an occasional unwinnable encounter at the party and there's throwing an unwinnable encounter at the party at the worst possible moment. Let's allow for some perspective here.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
So looking at what the OP wants to do, here's how I might do it if you really want to throw dice and still have the PC's end the battle with a "captured/ knocked out and captured/ surrendered"
Part 1: The First wave - A little over balanced but winnable. If the PC's win, go to Part 2
Part 2: The second wave - About the same balanced as before but now the PC's are down on resources and more likely to fail.
Part 3: The Last and Narrated wave - This is where there are no dice thrown because the numbers are just THAT overwhelming. Each player is invited in turn to describe what's happening as the additional dozen orcs rush the room. Give everyone time to shine as they get their "moment of glory" before they go down with an understanding that this point they ARE going down. Do they surrender? Do they get grappled by 5 goblins and wrestled into chains? Do they try to run for it only to see the sinister elven mistress standing in the doorway with her bodyguards? Have fun! Talk it up! Take two turns. Give the players rewards of some kind for having fun with this.
Part 4: The aftermath - Depending on how the party did in parts 1 and 2 (and 3 if they got there) the NPC's they interact with absolutely MUST MUST MUST acknowledge what happened. "Well well, if it isn't that mage who simply would not die. Do you know you killed my two best lieutenants before I brought you to heel?" "Grr... I don't like you Hooman, but I must respect anyone with your courage". etc etc.
Now, this isn't all players cup of tea. For me, I'd prefer to give the players a chance to have the fun of setting up the climatic showdown and capture rather than narrating the whole scene or letting the players think they could win when they couldn't. That said, it's hard to do organically and it relies on knowing your players and their tastes.
Yeah, or maybe it's just the 7th encounter the party's faced that day and they're running dry on powers.
There's throwing an occasional unwinnable encounter at the party and there's throwing an unwinnable encounter at the party at the worst possible moment. Let's allow for some perspective here.
Part of that perspective is what the status of the party is. "Unwinnable" depends on the situation. Sometimes things just go south because of bad dice rolls or other things that are out of the party's control.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Part of that perspective is what the status of the party is. "Unwinnable" depends on the situation. Sometimes things just go south because of bad dice rolls or other things that are out of the party's control.
That's not unwinnable, that's failing to win. Throw enough 'the PCs have a 90% chance of winning' fights at a party and they're going to hit that 10% where they lose (which is why figuring out answers for losing fights is important; if you want a lasting campaign, either every fight has to have no realistic risk of losing, or the campaign has to keep going after a loss).
Yeah, or maybe it's just the 7th encounter the party's faced that day and they're running dry on powers.
There's throwing an occasional unwinnable encounter at the party and there's throwing an unwinnable encounter at the party at the worst possible moment. Let's allow for some perspective here.
Part of that perspective is what the status of the party is. "Unwinnable" depends on the situation. Sometimes things just go south because of bad dice rolls or other things that are out of the party's control.
That's just the game though. Shit happens sometimes. An encounter going poorly is not the same as one deliberately set up to throw the players a Kobayashi Maru.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
5E's rules don't provide mechanical incentives to flee most of the time. Unless you're a Rogue that can use Cunning Action to dash twice in a round, or you've got a race/class combo that gives you a substantial bonus to movement, it's hard to actually escape from a fight once it's broken out.
I really love the idea of the rogue fleeing a losing battle, and the next session the party wakes up in a dungeon cell cursing that cowardly rogue, only to have him show up, sneak attack the guard, and dangle the keys to their cell.
5E's rules don't provide mechanical incentives to flee most of the time. Unless you're a Rogue that can use Cunning Action to dash twice in a round, or you've got a race/class combo that gives you a substantial bonus to movement, it's hard to actually escape from a fight once it's broken out.
I'm not sure why you should need mechanical incentives to flee. Story incentives should be all you need, like in "you are all dead if you don't flee". After that, there are so many spells and powers that can be used to flee, including so many teleportation effects that it should not really be a technical problem, especially after the very first levels. But for that, you need to have well-rounded characters, not stupid builds that focus on one thing, for example doing the maximum damage in specific circumstances.
Okay, let me put it like this: I have a fighter. They're in melee with a hobgoblin when they realize that they need to retreat for whatever reason. I have two basic options: Disengage and move my normal movement, at which point the hobgoblin uses their normal movement and starts hitting me again; or Dashing and double moving, eating an Opportunity Attack and then having the hobgoblin Dash to get up to me again. Either way, once in melee the game's rules really encourage you to keep fighting unless you've got specific class or racial abilities. Which a lot of player character builds don't get.
And no, that's not something that's restricted to "stupid builds" that focus on damage output. You can be very well-rounded and still have issues with this simply because there are so few ways to get around it and most of them are very specialized.
My friend, let me introduce you to the optional chase rules:
5E's rules don't provide mechanical incentives to flee most of the time. Unless you're a Rogue that can use Cunning Action to dash twice in a round, or you've got a race/class combo that gives you a substantial bonus to movement, it's hard to actually escape from a fight once it's broken out.
I really love the idea of the rogue fleeing a losing battle, and the next session the party wakes up in a dungeon cell cursing that cowardly rogue, only to have him show up, sneak attack the guard, and dangle the keys to their cell.
It unfortunately requires splitting the party, which is one of those things DMs avoid because it tends to provide a poor play experience.
OK, thanks for the advice everyone! And yes, my plan was for enemies of the 2 different groups that were fighting to offer the party to join, so they do have a choice between whos offer to accept or just run away.
I’m a little late to the party. I have ead some of the comments and skimmed soothe rest, but am not currently prepared to read everything. I apologize if I reappear something someone else has already pointed out.
If the outcome of an encounter is predetermined, and the nothing the party does will have any meaningful impact, then that would fit my definition of railroading. If the only thing the party can “do” that will impact the story is to ally with one (or neither) of two factions, then everything else is ultimately meaningless and could just be a really cool narrative you can give them to set the scene for their choice. Save everyone the time, simply tell them that story, make it a social encounter, and present them with the choice.
However, if the events leading up to that choice can impact the game after the choice is made, then that is not a railroad at all. As examples:
If you staff each of the factions with “quest giver” type NPCs that might die during the battle, then the battle itself has some significance.
If the outcome of the battle could affect the state of things afterwords, like which faction would control a strategic location, or valuable resource, depending on how the battle goes, then that would be significant.
If the party’s actions (or inaction) during the battle would impact how the other members of each faction view the party, that would make the player’s choices (and their Characters’ accomplishments) during the battle significant.
If one or more of the PCs could legitimately die before the party makes their choice, that would make combat significant.
Those are just a few examples of things that would actually make a combat encounter worthwhile and preclude it being a railroad. (At least IMO.)
Are cutscenes in video games "Railroading"? I mean, the player has no chance to modify anything that happens in a cutscene (well, rarely)... but if there were no moments to show the world around the player in cutscenes, how terrible would a LOT of videogames be?
Yes, that is 100% railroading. In fact, any video game that plays the exact same cutscenes every playthrough like that is a railroad from beginning to end. Play a mission until you beat it, watch the cutscene, rinse and repeat. Nothing the player does during the level will alter the story in any way. If you play the game 100 times, no matter what you do the story will always be the same. Railroad. All day long that’s the very definition of a railroad.
That describes every game in the Halo, Devil May Cry, God of War, Call of Duty, and the Final Fantasy franchises, almost every other JRPG ever, and Deadpool.* Those are some of the most popular video games of all time. And there are countless more games like that too. So obviously a railroad isn’t intrinsically a bad thing or it wouldn’t be a multi-gagillion dollar per year industry. It is however, a matter of personal preference.
Personally speaking though, I’m not a fan of most of the titles on that list. I dislike the interruptions. If I want narrative in a game I want it as part of the actual game itself and not as little micro episodes dangled like carrots for beating a level. If I want to watch something I wouldn’t be holding a controller. If I’m holding a controller it’s because I want to play the game, not watch micro episodes. And I want a story where my choices can alter the outcome of the story in some way. So if I’m going to spend time playing a game like that the actual gameplay has to drive it for me, or I have to already love the IP enough to keep me invested.
I don’t enjoy turn based combat in RPGs like Final Fantasy and most other JRPGs.
I also don’t generally enjoy murderhoboe combat in my RPGs, so that knocked DMC & GoW off the list for me too. (Deadpool got a pass because of the IP, but only enough for one playthrough.)
If I’m playing a FPS/TPS, I don’t really need a reason for the activity, I don’t really even need an excuse. When it comes to war, reasons and excuses are for the politicians and civilians.* If I’m there for the runnin’ and gunnin’, the only reason I need is because those are my orders, and the only excuse is because I “enlisted” when I chose to play. So I could only give the vaguest description of the story behind Halo, and have never been a Clancy fan. I don’t personally need to know the why, I just need to know two things: the controller layout, and which direction I need to go to find things that turn my ‘retical red. I can take it from there. So when the gameplay gets interrupted by a cutscene I often view it much like a commercial break, at best it’s a convenient time to visit the kitchen or restroom. Otherwise it’s an opportunity to exercise my patience... under there’s a “skip cutscene” button. *(In truth, there are generally very few valid reasons for ever inflicting war on anyone, and only crappy excuses. Yet, it will always exist. 😔)
5E's rules don't provide mechanical incentives to flee most of the time. Unless you're a Rogue that can use Cunning Action to dash twice in a round, or you've got a race/class combo that gives you a substantial bonus to movement, it's hard to actually escape from a fight once it's broken out.
I really love the idea of the rogue fleeing a losing battle, and the next session the party wakes up in a dungeon cell cursing that cowardly rogue, only to have him show up, sneak attack the guard, and dangle the keys to their cell.
It unfortunately requires splitting the party, which is one of those things DMs avoid because it tends to provide a poor play experience.
True, but it really depends on the length of time when the party is split. If it's exactly like the sequence above, I think it's rather cool, and it does not have to take long in terms of play. Or for the bard to get someone with influence free the PCs from jail, etc.
Exactly. It hinges a lot on what the players want out of the experience. I know some people will fight tooth and nail for a realistic split party and some will much better with a few short RP scenes and the party is reformed.
There's throwing an occasional unwinnable encounter at the party and there's throwing an unwinnable encounter at the party at the worst possible moment. Let's allow for some perspective here.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
So looking at what the OP wants to do, here's how I might do it if you really want to throw dice and still have the PC's end the battle with a "captured/ knocked out and captured/ surrendered"
Part 1: The First wave - A little over balanced but winnable. If the PC's win, go to Part 2
Part 2: The second wave - About the same balanced as before but now the PC's are down on resources and more likely to fail.
Part 3: The Last and Narrated wave - This is where there are no dice thrown because the numbers are just THAT overwhelming. Each player is invited in turn to describe what's happening as the additional dozen orcs rush the room. Give everyone time to shine as they get their "moment of glory" before they go down with an understanding that this point they ARE going down. Do they surrender? Do they get grappled by 5 goblins and wrestled into chains? Do they try to run for it only to see the sinister elven mistress standing in the doorway with her bodyguards? Have fun! Talk it up! Take two turns. Give the players rewards of some kind for having fun with this.
Part 4: The aftermath - Depending on how the party did in parts 1 and 2 (and 3 if they got there) the NPC's they interact with absolutely MUST MUST MUST acknowledge what happened. "Well well, if it isn't that mage who simply would not die. Do you know you killed my two best lieutenants before I brought you to heel?" "Grr... I don't like you Hooman, but I must respect anyone with your courage". etc etc.
Now, this isn't all players cup of tea. For me, I'd prefer to give the players a chance to have the fun of setting up the climatic showdown and capture rather than narrating the whole scene or letting the players think they could win when they couldn't. That said, it's hard to do organically and it relies on knowing your players and their tastes.
"Teller of tales, dreamer of dreams"
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Part of that perspective is what the status of the party is. "Unwinnable" depends on the situation. Sometimes things just go south because of bad dice rolls or other things that are out of the party's control.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
That's not unwinnable, that's failing to win. Throw enough 'the PCs have a 90% chance of winning' fights at a party and they're going to hit that 10% where they lose (which is why figuring out answers for losing fights is important; if you want a lasting campaign, either every fight has to have no realistic risk of losing, or the campaign has to keep going after a loss).
That's just the game though. Shit happens sometimes. An encounter going poorly is not the same as one deliberately set up to throw the players a Kobayashi Maru.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I really love the idea of the rogue fleeing a losing battle, and the next session the party wakes up in a dungeon cell cursing that cowardly rogue, only to have him show up, sneak attack the guard, and dangle the keys to their cell.
My friend, let me introduce you to the optional chase rules:
dndbeyond.com/sources/dmg/running-the-game#Chases
It unfortunately requires splitting the party, which is one of those things DMs avoid because it tends to provide a poor play experience.
I’m a little late to the party. I have ead some of the comments and skimmed soothe rest, but am not currently prepared to read everything. I apologize if I reappear something someone else has already pointed out.
If the outcome of an encounter is predetermined, and the nothing the party does will have any meaningful impact, then that would fit my definition of railroading. If the only thing the party can “do” that will impact the story is to ally with one (or neither) of two factions, then everything else is ultimately meaningless and could just be a really cool narrative you can give them to set the scene for their choice. Save everyone the time, simply tell them that story, make it a social encounter, and present them with the choice.
However, if the events leading up to that choice can impact the game after the choice is made, then that is not a railroad at all. As examples:
Those are just a few examples of things that would actually make a combat encounter worthwhile and preclude it being a railroad. (At least IMO.)
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Yes, that is 100% railroading. In fact, any video game that plays the exact same cutscenes every playthrough like that is a railroad from beginning to end. Play a mission until you beat it, watch the cutscene, rinse and repeat. Nothing the player does during the level will alter the story in any way. If you play the game 100 times, no matter what you do the story will always be the same. Railroad. All day long that’s the very definition of a railroad.
That describes every game in the Halo, Devil May Cry, God of War, Call of Duty, and the Final Fantasy franchises, almost every other JRPG ever, and Deadpool.* Those are some of the most popular video games of all time. And there are countless more games like that too. So obviously a railroad isn’t intrinsically a bad thing or it wouldn’t be a multi-gagillion dollar per year industry. It is however, a matter of personal preference.
Personally speaking though, I’m not a fan of most of the titles on that list. I dislike the interruptions. If I want narrative in a game I want it as part of the actual game itself and not as little micro episodes dangled like carrots for beating a level. If I want to watch something I wouldn’t be holding a controller. If I’m holding a controller it’s because I want to play the game, not watch micro episodes. And I want a story where my choices can alter the outcome of the story in some way. So if I’m going to spend time playing a game like that the actual gameplay has to drive it for me, or I have to already love the IP enough to keep me invested.
I don’t personally need to know the why, I just need to know two things: the controller layout, and which direction I need to go to find things that turn my ‘retical red. I can take it from there. So when the gameplay gets interrupted by a cutscene I often view it much like a commercial break, at best it’s a convenient time to visit the kitchen or restroom. Otherwise it’s an opportunity to exercise my patience... under there’s a “skip cutscene” button.
*(In truth, there are generally very few valid reasons for ever inflicting war on anyone, and only crappy excuses. Yet, it will always exist. 😔)
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Exactly. It hinges a lot on what the players want out of the experience. I know some people will fight tooth and nail for a realistic split party and some will much better with a few short RP scenes and the party is reformed.
"Teller of tales, dreamer of dreams"
Tips, Tricks, Maps: Lantern Noir Presents
**Streams hosted at at twitch.tv/LaternNoir