I started this thread for 1 reason, I would like to hear what others think of 5e's gradual power creep, Tasha's is a good example: I feel ( This a feeling, not a fact. ) they're trying to draw in players by making everything stronger with things like optional features, I am aware they're optional, but they don't fix the class, they just make it a bit OP.
This is a place for thoughtful discussion, not gatekeeping crap, and please be respectful of others thoughts.
There is a bit of powercreep in 5e, but nowhere near as much as previous editions, and most of the classes/races that have been creeping up in power needed some help in the first place (Dragonborn, Kobolds, Sorcerers, Monks, Rangers, etc).
There is no evidence that they're trying to sell books by putting more powerful content inside it, and whenever I hear this "theory" I roll my eyes and do the same thing I always do; ask for any evidence besides the feelings of those that propose it.
I'm trying to think of any game ever that consistently added new content and didn't power creep. Even more customization allows you to tune your characters for better specialization and cooperation, so at best, the power creep is subtle and tasteful. People struggle to accept inferior options, and nothings truly equivalent, than there's the fact that this is a business needing to sell product which needs to be desirable. Almost every UA I've ever read through was OP, and tuned down upon official release.
But in my personal experience, balance is more a notion rather than a reality. We know Mages get Wish or Divine Intervention, we know Fighters can ham on ppl at second level, and there are plenty of official ways to increase a PCs power, from introducing them to a pet, to delivering a magic item, so DMs can compensate for it fairly easily.
I feel like mature players who are more invested in playing the game rather than outperforming their peers can simply accept the handicap as well. It's interesting to Min/Max character creation, but any DM worth their salt can determine whether the encounter is going to be hard or easy no matter what you pick, they have unlimited selection. Sometimes it's interesting to be Frodo while another player plays Gandalf, these games are mostly cooperative, so your allies power is your own success as well, it's mostly only a peeve if your let it be.
Can someone provide a specific example of recent power creep with numbers comparing to the existing meta?
New content is always going to provide lateral growth (More spells, more flexibility, etc...), but I tend to associate "power creep" with unwarranted upward mobility (Increased DPS, increased AC, etc...)
I'm a fan of some of the stuff in Tasha's, but I haven't yet seen anything that I consider "essential" for power gamers, so much as content balancing. (+1/+2/+3 Magic focuses for casters, etc...) That might include raising the power floor overall, but with the intention of fixing deficiencies, rather than creating the next "New Shiny Thing".
Power Creepiness. Start out with the Player's Handbook. 12 Classes, 3 Subclasses for each Class.
Xanathar's adds a whole boatload of Subclasses including the Hexblade, the Power Gamer's best friend.
The explosion of Character Races in Volo's adds a basketful of racial features.
Tasha's gives us rules to move stats around on the races. New Class, the Artificer. Optional Features for every Class. Feats. Sidekicks who can have all of that.
I can't point out any specific mechanical boosts that give me numbers to show you. Somewhere between the three Core Rules books to the addition of three more books of Optional Rules from Xanathar, Volo, and Tasha, we get a pretty large increase in power. We haven't even touched setting-specific stuff that contain travesties of their own.
Van Richten may bring us player character were-critters. Possibly player character vampires. Who knows, we may get player character were-vampires. Undead and cursed to change shape under the full moon, doomed to seek out mortal blood or mortal flesh, maybe both. Tragic figures who must fight to retain their Alignment. They will be really hard to kill and make them stay (un)dead. Welcome to Lawful Good were-vampires. Packs of them. Can't wait to see what an Alpha Were-Vampire can do. How about some nice Were-Vampire Alpha Bugbear player characters with a pack of Sidekicks that are Goodness Knows What? Awesomeness.
I'd say there has been plenty of Power Creep and more to come.
The Ravenloft book is bringing us 3 races, and 2 subclasses The Dhampir, Hexborn, and Reborn. With the 2 subclasses being the College of Spirits Bard, and the Undead Warlock so now I have a chance of playing a cool creepy Bard other then Collage of Whispers.
Most of that is more "scope creep" than "power creep," though. It's not like Xanathar's introduced a "Fireball, but double damage at the same level" spell...
Yeah, that definitely feels more like "scope creep".
As you said, the main points of concern come from multi-classing abuse and other optional features. Class balance does not take Multi-classing into consideration, and the DM bears responsibility to approving or disapproving variant rules like Multi-classing, Flanking, and Sidekicks.
Since D&D 5e is essentially balanced for mid-tier play (~3rd to 12th-ish), the game designers have a very strong incentive to try to stick to that as closely as possible, and can't be expected to control for the extreme fringes of play and kitbashing.
Yea, I don't know if power creep is the right word. I definitely wouldn't say that Tasha's content is universally better than PHB. In fact, there are still plenty of races, subclasses, spells, and feats from the PHB that are consistently core to the "most powerful" builds of the game. They aren't being replaced and taken over. Certainly some of the struggling aspects of the game received a power boost (Ranger), but that wasn't an attempt to boost overall power - it was just raising the floor a bit.
Each new book comes with some really strong new options and some rather meh options. SCAG brought booming blade, but it also brought flame arrows. XGTE added the hexblade, but it also added the Arcane Archer. What happens is that players are able to cherry pick the best content from each book in order to create more powerful characters. That isn't an issue of power creep, per se, but simply a natural result of any system that consistently adds new options.
The only thing I would argue was strict power creep was Tasha's custom lineage, which was a pretty strict upgrade over the min-max Vhuman. The rest of the additional power is pretty easily attributed to the ability to just mix and match more things together to better min-max your character.
I struggle to even call Custom Lineages "power creep", because despite unquestionably being a straight upgrade, it was a targeted solution for a specific systemic problem. Digging itself out of a hole, rather than climbing a ladder.
The only issue with the Lineage system has been discussed to death. Mountain Dwarves. +2 for two different stats. Arguably the best racial stat bonus you can get. Half-Elves are the only other race that gets four stat points, only one of them a +2. It is debatable which is better. +2 to a stat gets you to the cap a tiny bit quicker.
Custom Lineage is +2 to just one stat and no other stat bonus. Most races are actually better off than that. +2 to one stat, +1 to another. A couple other odd ones, like Tritons, who get three +1s to 3 different stats. Kobolds only get one +2.
I will probably give +2 to one stat, +1 to one other, to all races, with the exception being Humans. +1 to all stats or +1 to two stats and a feat. Better all around than what Tasha does, with the exception of the poor Mountain Dwarves and Half-Elves who lose one point each from one stat.
Tasha's isn't especially creepy. I find Sidekicks over the top and will not be using them. Other than that I haven't come across any problems.
I find the complaints about power creep to be completely overblown. First, it's a natural occurrence as the game expands, so to expect it not to happen is unrealistic. Second, they have mostly done a solid job of using natural power creep to fix things that were lacking in a big way, and thus even the playing field a little bit. Tasha's has some pretty glaring mistakes, but overall I think the pacing at which they release books and what they choose to focus on when designing new stuff seems to temper the effects of power creep to a good extent.
I find the complaints about power creep to be completely overblown. First, it's a natural occurrence as the game expands, so to expect it not to happen is unrealistic. Second, they have mostly done a solid job of using natural power creep to fix things that were lacking in a big way, and thus even the playing field a little bit. Tasha's has some pretty glaring mistakes, but overall I think the pacing at which they release books and what they choose to focus on when designing new stuff seems to temper the effects of power creep to a good extent.
There is most certainly power creep in the game.
And yes, the book that shall not be named, even outside of char creation mechanics, has said creep. Swapping out cantrips and abilities may seem innocuous, but it most definitely makes a char better, as they can either correct initial mistakes, or adjust the char to later conditions. XGTE might be accused of power creep because of Hexblade, which should never be allowed in an MC'ed char, because it is just that good. Even the species specific feats are reasonably balanced, with the notable exception of Elven Advantage. But overall, I don't think I can think of anything else in that book that made the game mechanics easier for the players. In the book that shall not be named, everything makes the game easier for the players.
I find the complaints about power creep to be completely overblown. First, it's a natural occurrence as the game expands, so to expect it not to happen is unrealistic.
I never denied the existence of power creep Vince. Read my post instead of falling back into your blind rage about ToCE and you will understand my opinions on the subject.
I find the complaints about power creep to be completely overblown. First, it's a natural occurrence as the game expands, so to expect it not to happen is unrealistic.
I never denied the existence of power creep Vince. Read my post instead of falling back into your blind rage about ToCE and you will understand my opinions on the subject.
You said it is overblown. I say it is the book that shall not be named goes way beyond a little power creep. There is no way to move our collective needles on that.
When you type "there is most certainly power creep" while quoting me you are implying I said there wasn't. Which is not what I was saying at all. It's annoying when someone tries to engage you in a discussion and have completely missed your point.
If you could come up with discussion points other than this weird rhetoric about making the game easier for players then I would be open to feeling differently about ToCE and the overall trajectory of power creep in the game. But since you don't and have communicated that you're unwilling to budge in your thought process, I'm not going to waste my time.
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I started this thread for 1 reason, I would like to hear what others think of 5e's gradual power creep, Tasha's is a good example: I feel ( This a feeling, not a fact. ) they're trying to draw in players by making everything stronger with things like optional features, I am aware they're optional, but they don't fix the class, they just make it a bit OP.
This is a place for thoughtful discussion, not gatekeeping crap, and please be respectful of others thoughts.
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
There is a bit of powercreep in 5e, but nowhere near as much as previous editions, and most of the classes/races that have been creeping up in power needed some help in the first place (Dragonborn, Kobolds, Sorcerers, Monks, Rangers, etc).
There is no evidence that they're trying to sell books by putting more powerful content inside it, and whenever I hear this "theory" I roll my eyes and do the same thing I always do; ask for any evidence besides the feelings of those that propose it.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I'm trying to think of any game ever that consistently added new content and didn't power creep. Even more customization allows you to tune your characters for better specialization and cooperation, so at best, the power creep is subtle and tasteful. People struggle to accept inferior options, and nothings truly equivalent, than there's the fact that this is a business needing to sell product which needs to be desirable. Almost every UA I've ever read through was OP, and tuned down upon official release.
But in my personal experience, balance is more a notion rather than a reality. We know Mages get Wish or Divine Intervention, we know Fighters can ham on ppl at second level, and there are plenty of official ways to increase a PCs power, from introducing them to a pet, to delivering a magic item, so DMs can compensate for it fairly easily.
I feel like mature players who are more invested in playing the game rather than outperforming their peers can simply accept the handicap as well. It's interesting to Min/Max character creation, but any DM worth their salt can determine whether the encounter is going to be hard or easy no matter what you pick, they have unlimited selection. Sometimes it's interesting to be Frodo while another player plays Gandalf, these games are mostly cooperative, so your allies power is your own success as well, it's mostly only a peeve if your let it be.
Can someone provide a specific example of recent power creep with numbers comparing to the existing meta?
New content is always going to provide lateral growth (More spells, more flexibility, etc...), but I tend to associate "power creep" with unwarranted upward mobility (Increased DPS, increased AC, etc...)
I'm a fan of some of the stuff in Tasha's, but I haven't yet seen anything that I consider "essential" for power gamers, so much as content balancing. (+1/+2/+3 Magic focuses for casters, etc...) That might include raising the power floor overall, but with the intention of fixing deficiencies, rather than creating the next "New Shiny Thing".
Power Creepiness. Start out with the Player's Handbook. 12 Classes, 3 Subclasses for each Class.
Xanathar's adds a whole boatload of Subclasses including the Hexblade, the Power Gamer's best friend.
The explosion of Character Races in Volo's adds a basketful of racial features.
Tasha's gives us rules to move stats around on the races. New Class, the Artificer. Optional Features for every Class. Feats. Sidekicks who can have all of that.
I can't point out any specific mechanical boosts that give me numbers to show you. Somewhere between the three Core Rules books to the addition of three more books of Optional Rules from Xanathar, Volo, and Tasha, we get a pretty large increase in power. We haven't even touched setting-specific stuff that contain travesties of their own.
Van Richten may bring us player character were-critters. Possibly player character vampires. Who knows, we may get player character were-vampires. Undead and cursed to change shape under the full moon, doomed to seek out mortal blood or mortal flesh, maybe both. Tragic figures who must fight to retain their Alignment. They will be really hard to kill and make them stay (un)dead. Welcome to Lawful Good were-vampires. Packs of them. Can't wait to see what an Alpha Were-Vampire can do. How about some nice Were-Vampire Alpha Bugbear player characters with a pack of Sidekicks that are Goodness Knows What? Awesomeness.
I'd say there has been plenty of Power Creep and more to come.
<Insert clever signature here>
The Ravenloft book is bringing us 3 races, and 2 subclasses The Dhampir, Hexborn, and Reborn. With the 2 subclasses being the College of Spirits Bard, and the Undead Warlock so now I have a chance of playing a cool creepy Bard other then Collage of Whispers.
Most of that is more "scope creep" than "power creep," though. It's not like Xanathar's introduced a "Fireball, but double damage at the same level" spell...
There's probably subclass bloat, for example.
Yeah, that definitely feels more like "scope creep".
As you said, the main points of concern come from multi-classing abuse and other optional features. Class balance does not take Multi-classing into consideration, and the DM bears responsibility to approving or disapproving variant rules like Multi-classing, Flanking, and Sidekicks.
Since D&D 5e is essentially balanced for mid-tier play (~3rd to 12th-ish), the game designers have a very strong incentive to try to stick to that as closely as possible, and can't be expected to control for the extreme fringes of play and kitbashing.
Yea, I don't know if power creep is the right word. I definitely wouldn't say that Tasha's content is universally better than PHB. In fact, there are still plenty of races, subclasses, spells, and feats from the PHB that are consistently core to the "most powerful" builds of the game. They aren't being replaced and taken over. Certainly some of the struggling aspects of the game received a power boost (Ranger), but that wasn't an attempt to boost overall power - it was just raising the floor a bit.
Each new book comes with some really strong new options and some rather meh options. SCAG brought booming blade, but it also brought flame arrows. XGTE added the hexblade, but it also added the Arcane Archer. What happens is that players are able to cherry pick the best content from each book in order to create more powerful characters. That isn't an issue of power creep, per se, but simply a natural result of any system that consistently adds new options.
The only thing I would argue was strict power creep was Tasha's custom lineage, which was a pretty strict upgrade over the min-max Vhuman. The rest of the additional power is pretty easily attributed to the ability to just mix and match more things together to better min-max your character.
I struggle to even call Custom Lineages "power creep", because despite unquestionably being a straight upgrade, it was a targeted solution for a specific systemic problem. Digging itself out of a hole, rather than climbing a ladder.
The only issue with the Lineage system has been discussed to death. Mountain Dwarves. +2 for two different stats. Arguably the best racial stat bonus you can get. Half-Elves are the only other race that gets four stat points, only one of them a +2. It is debatable which is better. +2 to a stat gets you to the cap a tiny bit quicker.
Custom Lineage is +2 to just one stat and no other stat bonus. Most races are actually better off than that. +2 to one stat, +1 to another. A couple other odd ones, like Tritons, who get three +1s to 3 different stats. Kobolds only get one +2.
I will probably give +2 to one stat, +1 to one other, to all races, with the exception being Humans. +1 to all stats or +1 to two stats and a feat. Better all around than what Tasha does, with the exception of the poor Mountain Dwarves and Half-Elves who lose one point each from one stat.
Tasha's isn't especially creepy. I find Sidekicks over the top and will not be using them. Other than that I haven't come across any problems.
<Insert clever signature here>
Custom Lineages is actually the only way to get +3 to a single stat. +2 racial, and then +1 from a matched feat.
Custom Lineages only give all races a +2 to a single stat and that is it. Everyone other than Humans, +2. End of line.
I don't know where you get the rest. Feats... Sure. Not at first level. Only Humans have that option.
<Insert clever signature here>
Custom lineages get a feat at first level just like variat human.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Ok. Custom Lineage gives a Feat. Oops.
<Insert clever signature here>
Custom Lineage gets a starting feat Geann.
I find the complaints about power creep to be completely overblown. First, it's a natural occurrence as the game expands, so to expect it not to happen is unrealistic. Second, they have mostly done a solid job of using natural power creep to fix things that were lacking in a big way, and thus even the playing field a little bit. Tasha's has some pretty glaring mistakes, but overall I think the pacing at which they release books and what they choose to focus on when designing new stuff seems to temper the effects of power creep to a good extent.
There is most certainly power creep in the game.
And yes, the book that shall not be named, even outside of char creation mechanics, has said creep. Swapping out cantrips and abilities may seem innocuous, but it most definitely makes a char better, as they can either correct initial mistakes, or adjust the char to later conditions. XGTE might be accused of power creep because of Hexblade, which should never be allowed in an MC'ed char, because it is just that good. Even the species specific feats are reasonably balanced, with the notable exception of Elven Advantage. But overall, I don't think I can think of anything else in that book that made the game mechanics easier for the players. In the book that shall not be named, everything makes the game easier for the players.
I never denied the existence of power creep Vince. Read my post instead of falling back into your blind rage about ToCE and you will understand my opinions on the subject.
You said it is overblown. I say it is the book that shall not be named goes way beyond a little power creep. There is no way to move our collective needles on that.
When you type "there is most certainly power creep" while quoting me you are implying I said there wasn't. Which is not what I was saying at all. It's annoying when someone tries to engage you in a discussion and have completely missed your point.
If you could come up with discussion points other than this weird rhetoric about making the game easier for players then I would be open to feeling differently about ToCE and the overall trajectory of power creep in the game. But since you don't and have communicated that you're unwilling to budge in your thought process, I'm not going to waste my time.