I don't think 5e suffers from power creep at all! The devs are CONSTANTLY making erratas and balance changes to old classes and subclasses, just look at the recent changes made with Tashas!
Are they?
Yeah.. I'm confused too.. they haven't errata'd or fixed anything.. they just put out a new subclass or slap in some options... that's not making balance changes XD
I don't think 5e suffers from power creep at all! The devs are CONSTANTLY making erratas and balance changes to old classes and subclasses, just look at the recent changes made with Tashas!
Are they?
Yeah.. I'm confused too.. they haven't errata'd or fixed anything.. they just put out a new subclass or slap in some options... that's not making balance changes XD
Some subclasses got errata'd. The most notable one I recall are Bladesingers having their Bladesong frequency and usage adjusted.
Power creep is bound to happen simply due to introducing more options your bound to step into something stronger than anticipated. For instance Yuan-ti playable characters or Hexblade Paladins.
Also some creep has come out simply as means to lift some of the classes up, look at the new sorcerer sub classes and the bloodwell vial.
Most the power creep thankfully has been creep vs leaps and bounds improvements at least but it exists, I wouldn't exactly say its a bad thing overall as long as it something doesn't simply dwarf everything else
Yup...Someone took a look at the Warlock's Rod of the Pact Keeper, and said "Hey, that's not fair, everyone should have one!", and voila!, we have the Arcane Grimoire and the Bloodwell Vial. I can see how a Sorcerer might need some love, but not a Wizard. These additions were made by someone who does not understand the game's balance, and now we have power creep.
[...] XGTE might be accused of power creep because of Hexblade, which should never be allowed in an MC'ed char, because it is just that good. [...]
Really? I'm willing to debate that.
In reality, this affects paladins the most, and in that sense it's not that big a deal. All it does is solve MADness, but not as much as one would hope. You can't dump STR to 8, as multiclass requires 13 in STR for paladin. They also get a neat ranged option with EB, but it's not that big a deal if they don't take a second level to get agonizing blast. Even then, their SADness is limited to one handed weapons, unless they get to lvl 3 and take pact of the blade. Until then, unless they have warcaster, they're stuck in this weird limbo where you can't cast many spells if they're using a sword-n-board set up-- you're being incentivized to use two-handed weapons, but your SADness doesn't cover it. They'd be forced to use a one-handed sword without a shield to use their spells like EB, and not everyone starts or wants to use variant human just to start with war caster. It's not "just that good."
Bard also greatly benefits, but in reality, bard would benefit from any warlock subclass as it just desperately needs EB+agonizing blast to have a decent, sustainable, scaling damage option.
Think outside of the box.
I can create a Halfling Hex Rogue that is superior to a straight Halfling Rogue by taking 2 levels of Hexblade. There are tradeoffs of course, but even using 27 point buy, putting a 14 into Cha, I can give my Halfling:
Devil's Sight (bye bye having to use a light source when sneaking around, which is HUGE for a Rogue)
Some other cool Invocation (like Detect Magic at will), three 1st level spells (one of which will be Hex, which softens the blow of giving up 2 levels before getting another d6 of Sneak Attack)
2 cantrips (and EB would not be one of them, but Booming Blade would be, which proc's beautifully with a single attack player)
2 spell slots that regen on a Short Rest,
Hexblade's Curse
Access to Medium Armour, Martial Weapons (Whip is a Finesse AND reach weapon, and qualifies for Sneak Attack)
And you don't even want to begin to see what an Assassin Hexblade looks like. My inner power-gamer created a nightmare of a NPC Half-Elf Hex Assassin that can infiltrate almost any situation, and gain Surprise. Hexblade is a definitely a front end loaded subclass, and adds to power creep, but overall XGTE was not bad at adding to that creep. The book that shall not be named, that is another story. It is loaded with "here, everyone have a cookie, and a participation trophy, we are all winners and special" stuff that power gamers look at, and say "thank you very much".
[...] XGTE might be accused of power creep because of Hexblade, which should never be allowed in an MC'ed char, because it is just that good. [...]
Really? I'm willing to debate that.
[...]
Think outside of the box.
[...]
This is your example of thinking outside the box? A race sans-darkvision hex rogue? And this is considered overpowered to the point of banning in campaigns? Please. This is a poor man's version of a high-elf swashbuckler with booming blade. If you really want it, booming blade is available on any race by picking the Arcane Trickster, anyways, and it's already the best subclass for rogues.
Again, a multiclass into any other warlock gives you most of what you listed. Gaining medium armor prof is OK at best, but ultimately questionable since donning half-plate grants disadvantage on your precious stealth checks. Using whips, however.... ehhh, it's grasping at straws for sure. You'll need to be within 5 ft of your target to use booming blade, so, reach is useless. Your inner power-gamer needs more work, I'd say.
And it's TASHA'S. It's okay to say it, it's okay to name it. It's just a book, buddy.
Personally, I think power creep is negligible. There’s been overpowered subclasses since the PHB (Moon Druid) and they’re still coming out today (Twilight Cleric), but I don’t think there’s any pattern to it. The one thing that’s insanely power-creepy is the class features from Tasha’s that are added onto the regular ones. I haven’t looked over what they do, so I can’t say how strong they are, but I probably won’t be allowing them in my game if only because it would essentially force people to buy another book.
That said, while I recognize “scope creep” is inevitable, it’s a big frustration for me. It’s slowly becoming possible to build any class around any role, which in my opinion takes away from the uniqueness and fun of classes in the first place. Mixing primary paints is fun, you get orange and purple and green, but mix them too much and it all ends up brown. We’re not quite there yet, but I’m afraid that’s where we’re going, as every class becomes more of a Swiss Army Knife.
End of the day, no one wants to buy a book that has objectively worse options than what already exists. A game that doesn't have a bit of power creep is a game that dies on the vine; it's just a necessary part of the business. That being said, I think 5e has done an admirable job of keeping it in check. It could certainly be a lot worse after all these years.
Power creep is bound to happen simply due to introducing more options your bound to step into something stronger than anticipated. For instance Yuan-ti playable characters or Hexblade Paladins.
Also some creep has come out simply as means to lift some of the classes up, look at the new sorcerer sub classes and the bloodwell vial.
Most the power creep thankfully has been creep vs leaps and bounds improvements at least but it exists, I wouldn't exactly say its a bad thing overall as long as it something doesn't simply dwarf everything else
Yup...Someone took a look at the Warlock's Rod of the Pact Keeper, and said "Hey, that's not fair, everyone should have one!", and voila!, we have the Arcane Grimoire and the Bloodwell Vial. I can see how a Sorcerer might need some love, but not a Wizard. These additions were made by someone who does not understand the game's balance, and now we have power creep.
. . . Magic items cannot and do not contribute to "power creep" as long as they depend on the DM giving them to the party (and none of these magic items that you have mentioned can be created by the Artificer or any other class through their class features). Magic items almost always creep up the power that a party has. Complaining that a DM can give a Wizard a magic spellbook that makes them better at casting spells is both nonsensical and comes across selfishly, "No! That's my thing that the DM let me have! You guys can't have it!!!"
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and adds to power creep, but overall XGTE was not bad at adding to that creep. The book that shall not be named, that is another story. It is loaded with "here, everyone have a cookie, and a participation trophy, we are all winners and special" stuff that power gamers look at, and say "thank you very much".
I agree with you on this, especially with monk, ki-fueled attack probably should have been a part of the class in the first place, but quickened healing, first of all, steps on open hand's toes like crazy, and it's basically saying: "Please don't cry Kensei, here have some healing" which is absolutely cuckoo, and ;adding on to what Aruanna said, classes should not be swiss army knives, if you want to do a bit of everything, multiclass, at least THAT has you sacrifice a bit of power, but non-bladesinger wizards shouldn't be able to tank, non-open hand monks shouldn't self-heal, I could go on for hours, but they just trying to sell more books.
Scope Creep is natural and I'm not against it, but eventually it takes it's toll, and hopefully that day won't come soon, but you never know.
My War Mage was tanking before the Bladesinger tradition was even released.
Actually, no it wasn't, as the Bladesinger was first released in the SCAG, which came out before XGtE had the War Mage. However, the Abjuration Wizard, which is the epitome of a "tanky wizard", has been in 5e since the PHB was released.
"Non-open hand monks should not be able to self heal"
Way of Mercy would like a word.
Also, the quickened healing isn't that great of a class feature. You have to spend 2 ki points as an action to use it and you only get Martial Arts Die + Prof back in healing (Maximum of 16 HP by the time you are in Tier 4 play). If it was a bonus action, cost less ki, or the healing scaled better I would say it could be powerful.
Wholeness of body, while it can be used less often, restores 18 HP at 6th level and eventually scales to 60 HP, and you don't have to worry about getting less healing because of a bad dice roll.
Idk. It seems to me like the best use of Quickened Healing is to use up any remaining ki right before a short rest so you have to spend less Hit Die during the rest to recover. In combat, it just doesn't seem like a worthwhile ability because it costs too much ki at low level and at high level the healing you get is too small.
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"Non-open hand monks should not be able to self heal"
Way of Mercy would like a word.
Also, the quickened healing isn't that great of a class feature. You have to spend 2 ki points as an action to use it and you only get Martial Arts Die + Prof back in healing (Maximum of 16 HP by the time you are in Tier 4 play). If it was a bonus action, cost less ki, or the healing scaled better I would say it could be powerful.
Wholeness of body, while it can be used less often, restores 18 HP at 6th level and eventually scales to 60 HP, and you don't have to worry about getting less healing because of a bad dice roll.
Idk. It seems to me like the best use of Quickened Healing is to use up any remaining ki right before a short rest so you have to spend less Hit Die during the rest to recover. In combat, it just doesn't seem like a worthwhile ability because it costs too much ki at low level and at high level the healing you get is too small.
I was careful about the wording of 'self-healing', Mercy monks get healing, open hand gets self-healing, Way of Mercy is a great subclass and a great addition to the set, it gets standard healing they can use on anyone.
"Non-open hand monks should not be able to self heal"
Way of Mercy would like a word.
Also, the quickened healing isn't that great of a class feature. You have to spend 2 ki points as an action to use it and you only get Martial Arts Die + Prof back in healing (Maximum of 16 HP by the time you are in Tier 4 play). If it was a bonus action, cost less ki, or the healing scaled better I would say it could be powerful.
Wholeness of body, while it can be used less often, restores 18 HP at 6th level and eventually scales to 60 HP, and you don't have to worry about getting less healing because of a bad dice roll.
Idk. It seems to me like the best use of Quickened Healing is to use up any remaining ki right before a short rest so you have to spend less Hit Die during the rest to recover. In combat, it just doesn't seem like a worthwhile ability because it costs too much ki at low level and at high level the healing you get is too small.
I was careful about the wording of 'self-healing', Mercy monks get healing, open hand gets self-healing, Way of Mercy is a great subclass and a great addition to the set, it gets standard healing they can use on anyone.
I mean, healing that they can use on anyone can include themselves. I appreciate you clarifying that you intentionally meant not to include Mercy Monk in your critique, but I hope you can see where the confusion came from on my end, since they are very much capable of self healing using their abilities.
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My War Mage was tanking before the Bladesinger tradition was even released.
Actually, no it wasn't, as the Bladesinger was first released in the SCAG, which came out before XGtE had the War Mage. However, the Abjuration Wizard, which is the epitome of a "tanky wizard", has been in 5e since the PHB was released.
You're absolutely correct, though I was referring to my very first 5E character, an Abjuration wizard from the setting's Royal War College. A different mistake, but still my mistake.
That aside, I don't really care for Bladesingers as tanks in the strict/MMO sense. They're tanky as in hard to hit, but most Bladesingers are built as close quarters damage dealers. Any generalist wizard with sufficient defensive magic can be hard to hit, is not as married to melee and can do a much better job of averting danger to the rest of the party.
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My War Mage was tanking before the Bladesinger tradition was even released.
Actually, no it wasn't, as the Bladesinger was first released in the SCAG, which came out before XGtE had the War Mage. However, the Abjuration Wizard, which is the epitome of a "tanky wizard", has been in 5e since the PHB was released.
You're absolutely correct, though I was referring to my very first 5E character, an Abjuration wizard from the setting's Royal War College. A different mistake, but still my mistake.
That aside, I don't really care for Bladesingers as tanks in the strict/MMO sense. They're tanky as in hard to hit, but most Bladesingers are built as close quarters damage dealers. Any generalist wizard with sufficient defensive magic can be hard to hit, is not as married to melee and can do a much better job of averting danger to the rest of the party.
Bladesingers also just make really really good controller wizards as they can maintain concentration on spells better than any other wizard subclass.
Plus having the ability to stab then shocking grasp/boomer blade somebody and skeedattle helps.
Most of those additions were to classes that were considered to be on the lower end of the power spectrum in the first place.
I will believe that when the Sorcerer class gets some serious sub-class love.
As far as I can count, including a DMG sub-class, there are 18 sub-classes of Cleric.
There are 8 Sorcerer sub-classes, and that is stretching it.
The only kind of "creep" I would enforce from WOTC is a real focus of creating more sub-classes for specific classes. We don't need any more choice for Wizards and Clerics.
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Yeah.. I'm confused too.. they haven't errata'd or fixed anything.. they just put out a new subclass or slap in some options... that's not making balance changes XD
Some subclasses got errata'd. The most notable one I recall are Bladesingers having their Bladesong frequency and usage adjusted.
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Yup...Someone took a look at the Warlock's Rod of the Pact Keeper, and said "Hey, that's not fair, everyone should have one!", and voila!, we have the Arcane Grimoire and the Bloodwell Vial. I can see how a Sorcerer might need some love, but not a Wizard. These additions were made by someone who does not understand the game's balance, and now we have power creep.
Think outside of the box.
I can create a Halfling Hex Rogue that is superior to a straight Halfling Rogue by taking 2 levels of Hexblade. There are tradeoffs of course, but even using 27 point buy, putting a 14 into Cha, I can give my Halfling:
Devil's Sight (bye bye having to use a light source when sneaking around, which is HUGE for a Rogue)
Some other cool Invocation (like Detect Magic at will), three 1st level spells (one of which will be Hex, which softens the blow of giving up 2 levels before getting another d6 of Sneak Attack)
2 cantrips (and EB would not be one of them, but Booming Blade would be, which proc's beautifully with a single attack player)
2 spell slots that regen on a Short Rest,
Hexblade's Curse
Access to Medium Armour, Martial Weapons (Whip is a Finesse AND reach weapon, and qualifies for Sneak Attack)
And you don't even want to begin to see what an Assassin Hexblade looks like. My inner power-gamer created a nightmare of a NPC Half-Elf Hex Assassin that can infiltrate almost any situation, and gain Surprise. Hexblade is a definitely a front end loaded subclass, and adds to power creep, but overall XGTE was not bad at adding to that creep. The book that shall not be named, that is another story. It is loaded with "here, everyone have a cookie, and a participation trophy, we are all winners and special" stuff that power gamers look at, and say "thank you very much".
This is your example of thinking outside the box? A race sans-darkvision hex rogue? And this is considered overpowered to the point of banning in campaigns? Please. This is a poor man's version of a high-elf swashbuckler with booming blade. If you really want it, booming blade is available on any race by picking the Arcane Trickster, anyways, and it's already the best subclass for rogues.
Again, a multiclass into any other warlock gives you most of what you listed. Gaining medium armor prof is OK at best, but ultimately questionable since donning half-plate grants disadvantage on your precious stealth checks. Using whips, however.... ehhh, it's grasping at straws for sure. You'll need to be within 5 ft of your target to use booming blade, so, reach is useless. Your inner power-gamer needs more work, I'd say.
And it's TASHA'S. It's okay to say it, it's okay to name it. It's just a book, buddy.
Personally, I think power creep is negligible. There’s been overpowered subclasses since the PHB (Moon Druid) and they’re still coming out today (Twilight Cleric), but I don’t think there’s any pattern to it. The one thing that’s insanely power-creepy is the class features from Tasha’s that are added onto the regular ones. I haven’t looked over what they do, so I can’t say how strong they are, but I probably won’t be allowing them in my game if only because it would essentially force people to buy another book.
That said, while I recognize “scope creep” is inevitable, it’s a big frustration for me. It’s slowly becoming possible to build any class around any role, which in my opinion takes away from the uniqueness and fun of classes in the first place. Mixing primary paints is fun, you get orange and purple and green, but mix them too much and it all ends up brown. We’re not quite there yet, but I’m afraid that’s where we’re going, as every class becomes more of a Swiss Army Knife.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
End of the day, no one wants to buy a book that has objectively worse options than what already exists. A game that doesn't have a bit of power creep is a game that dies on the vine; it's just a necessary part of the business. That being said, I think 5e has done an admirable job of keeping it in check. It could certainly be a lot worse after all these years.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
. . . Magic items cannot and do not contribute to "power creep" as long as they depend on the DM giving them to the party (and none of these magic items that you have mentioned can be created by the Artificer or any other class through their class features). Magic items almost always creep up the power that a party has. Complaining that a DM can give a Wizard a magic spellbook that makes them better at casting spells is both nonsensical and comes across selfishly, "No! That's my thing that the DM let me have! You guys can't have it!!!"
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I agree with you on this, especially with monk, ki-fueled attack probably should have been a part of the class in the first place, but quickened healing, first of all, steps on open hand's toes like crazy, and it's basically saying: "Please don't cry Kensei, here have some healing" which is absolutely cuckoo, and ;adding on to what Aruanna said, classes should not be swiss army knives, if you want to do a bit of everything, multiclass, at least THAT has you sacrifice a bit of power, but non-bladesinger wizards shouldn't be able to tank, non-open hand monks shouldn't self-heal, I could go on for hours, but they just trying to sell more books.
Scope Creep is natural and I'm not against it, but eventually it takes it's toll, and hopefully that day won't come soon, but you never know.
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
My War Mage was tanking before the Bladesinger tradition was even released.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Actually, no it wasn't, as the Bladesinger was first released in the SCAG, which came out before XGtE had the War Mage. However, the Abjuration Wizard, which is the epitome of a "tanky wizard", has been in 5e since the PHB was released.
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Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
The major aspect of power creep in Tasha's as the straight up class additions.
They were originally introduced as alternatives but came out as just straight up adding features to the classes. That is 100% creep.
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It was just an example, though I'm sorry forgot about War wizard, I imagine they could make decent tanks.
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
I was careful about the wording of 'self-healing', Mercy monks get healing, open hand gets self-healing, Way of Mercy is a great subclass and a great addition to the set, it gets standard healing they can use on anyone.
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
I mean, healing that they can use on anyone can include themselves. I appreciate you clarifying that you intentionally meant not to include Mercy Monk in your critique, but I hope you can see where the confusion came from on my end, since they are very much capable of self healing using their abilities.
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You're absolutely correct, though I was referring to my very first 5E character, an Abjuration wizard from the setting's Royal War College. A different mistake, but still my mistake.
That aside, I don't really care for Bladesingers as tanks in the strict/MMO sense. They're tanky as in hard to hit, but most Bladesingers are built as close quarters damage dealers. Any generalist wizard with sufficient defensive magic can be hard to hit, is not as married to melee and can do a much better job of averting danger to the rest of the party.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Bladesingers also just make really really good controller wizards as they can maintain concentration on spells better than any other wizard subclass.
Plus having the ability to stab then shocking grasp/boomer blade somebody and skeedattle helps.
Most of those additions were to classes that were considered to be on the lower end of the power spectrum in the first place.
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I will believe that when the Sorcerer class gets some serious sub-class love.
As far as I can count, including a DMG sub-class, there are 18 sub-classes of Cleric.
There are 8 Sorcerer sub-classes, and that is stretching it.
The only kind of "creep" I would enforce from WOTC is a real focus of creating more sub-classes for specific classes. We don't need any more choice for Wizards and Clerics.