Yeah you said that the first time Vince. Nothing has changed in the last five posts. No one cares.
The people that like to rag on minmaxers and power-gamers are always stuck on the same three points of empty rhetoric and generally have no idea what they're talking about. I'm perfectly okay not putting any effort to try and appeal to them.
Yeah you said that the first time Vince. Nothing has changed in the last five posts. No one cares.
The people that like to rag on minmaxers and power-gamers are always stuck on the same three points of empty rhetoric and generally have no idea what they're talking about. I'm perfectly okay not putting any effort to try and appeal to them.
So if that's all, you can kindly leave now.
We've got numbers to crunch and games to ruin. 😈
Wish we still had the mystic class so arseplomancers could still be a valid build.
Part of me is genuinely curious how much effort Vince has collectively put in over the past months since the book's release, always going out of his way to type the above out rather than just "TCoE" or just "Tashas." Like it just so much unnecessary energy fueled only by hatred and disdain. Also, im pretty sure that by now most forum regulars are familiar with his opinions, so it also seems redundant at this point.
---
As for the question of the post, I also agree that if we are open ended about how many targets are available and the extreme circumstances, Chaos Bolt is the highest, even if cosmically unlikely odds of it beating other spells purely by jumping targets
I'm actually not familiar with any form of the mystic because I like to avoid the UA's. Let's me skip the "ah, this shit was nerfed" reaction to when they actually release some of the stuff. But anything that lead to something called an arseplomancer has me very intrigued. Please go on...
If we're talking about potential damage, like with the Chaos Bolt, I think a simple Light Cleric using Radiance of Dawn has that beat, at least in terms of a reliability to potential number of targets ratio. 2d10+4 to anything it wants to target in a 30 foot radius around them with a con save for half. That's a huge aoe and good damage for level 4.
Probably the Grave Cleric wins for single target damage. I saw it mentioned last page but I think it works just fine as a single class for this exercise. Throw on Fey-Touched for the Sleep spell and now you have a way to set people up for an auto-crit second level Inflict Wounds after using Path to the Grave. It's a three turn maneuver, but whatever. Do your best Dragonball Z scream as you power up turn after turn.
No one assumes these numbers will hold up/happen in a real game. But the theorycrafting discussions can be "useful" inasmuch as they help players discover new interactions and learn the rules of the game better, challenging them to stretch their thinking in search of more innovative solutions to the problem presented.
Also some such discussions are just fun.
I don't care for/about nova damage comparisons, though. To me, the better option is to see what you can do to maximize your damage output without expending any resources, completely at-will abilities that are not consumed. One that occurs to me is a Bonk Monk. Because feat cheese always leads to higher damage than raw class abilities. Vhuman, take Crusher at first level and Polearm Master at fourth. Use a quarterstaff. During your turn, hit with the staff, then hit with the monk's free punch or the PAM bonus bonk, since Martial Arts means both are the same damage die. On the second hit, move the target five feet away. When it moves to re-engage, PAM reaction attack.
Less total nova damage than a maximized upcast crit, but those never happen anyways. Bonk Monks can, however, semi-reliably throw out three attacks a round at level 4 without consuming any resources at all, upgrading that to four if they decide to burn a point on Flurry of Blows. You get 2d8+1d4+9 (assuming a Dex of +3, which can be done with standard array), which maxes out at 29 per round. You won't see that, and it sounds super low compared to the upcast turbocharged spell crits...but your 29 per round happens over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. You never run out of 29/round. The clerics dealing ~200 in a single turn (with a turn's set-up, so ~100/round) are done after that turn. That turn feels awesome...but at the end of the day's fifth or sixth combat encounter, when the cleric is gasping for air and down to pithy 1d8-plus-nada cantrips and spell slots are simply a fondly remembered dream, the Bonk Monk is still doing 29/round.
So I suppose it depends on what timeframe one classifies "most damage you can deal", and how many rounds you have to deal that damage in.
These entire threads are the playground of the power-gamer, and are what give the concept of a power-gamer a bad name.
How about" Are we talking with maxed stat of 20, or the 27 point buy method?" Or are we using the abomination that shall not be named to massage the stats? Or how about expected value, as opposed to max value? Are we talking about contrived situations where my 1/3 Hexblade Assassin gets Hex, Hexblade's Curse, Sneak Attack, AND Surprise for a Crit?
Sorry, but these kind of threads have no value.
Why the F*** are you on this thread then?, we would hate to waste your precious time :).
I don't care for/about nova damage comparisons, though. To me, the better option is to see what you can do to maximize your damage output without expending any resources, completely at-will abilities that are not consumed.
The problem with that theory is that hit points are also a resource. Your actual goal is to win the fight with the lowest cost in resources, which includes both your offensive resources (such as action surge) and your defensive resources (hit points, hit dice, second wind, etc). What this means is that, in a three round combat, killing one enemy per round is less valuable than killing two enemies during round 1, zero during round 2, and 1 in round 3, because in the first place you have prevented a total of 3 rounds of attacks (the enemy you kill in round 1 prevents attacks in rounds 2 and 3, the enemy you kill in round 2 prevents attacks in round 3), while in the second you have prevented 4 (2 attacks in each of rounds 2 and 3).
Kotath to be fair you're more "hey, is there a point to this?" and Vince is more "this is just powergamers who are all bad and horrible".
You're fine.
Vince isn't.
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That's a fair shake, Pantagruel. I'd posit that it's easier to start with good at-will damage and scale up than it is to build for an elaborate multi-step Rube Goldberg nova superburst that will overkill just about anything a level 4 has to deal with by a wide margin and then scale down, though. The Bonk Monk can burn ki to get an extra attack in its rotation via Flurry, and other round-over-round characters can occasionally augment specific attacks. They don't match the instantaneous damage of a nova character, but an entire party of novas that all explodes at once is in super deep trouble when the DM reminds them that D&D is supposed to be a game of attrition. Round-over-round reliable damage bois may be beat to hell at the end of a long day, and they could be in trouble if the DM induces a situation where huge burst damage is the answer...but generally you can always rely on at least one guy at the table to be chasing those Mega Deeps Numbaz, ne?
That's a fair shake, Pantagruel. I'd posit that it's easier to start with good at-will damage and scale up than it is to build for an elaborate multi-step Rube Goldberg nova superburst that will overkill just about anything a level 4 has to deal with by a wide margin and then scale down, though.
Well, for the most part we're just talking about extreme results of pretty normal builds. The great weapon mastery greataxe half-orc battle master I mentioned isn't really optimal, you're better off on average with variant human and a greatsword, but optimizing your cantrip dpr on a spellcaster other than a warlock is pretty much a waste of time, and fighters and paladins rather inherently have high spike potential.
Well if we're talking about more practical applications of damage, offensive output and the like then I think the spike growth abusing Moon Druid is making a great case for itself. Spike Growth adds a layer of battlefield control, the wildshapes offer great defense and offense simultaneously, and grappling with expertise in athletics is more reliable than trying to hit a bunch of attack rolls.
vicious mockery - sure it's only a d4 psychic damage at 4th level but I'd argue the emotional damage to the self esteem of the target is unmeasurable...
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My rogue at 4th level had 18 DEX, and mostly used a light crossbow for attacking. I didn't have a magic weapon at the time so....I believe on a crit that's 2d8+4d6+4.
4 for dex mod
16 from light crossbow damage crit
24 from sneak attack crit
44 total.
Recently my now level 10 rogue got 60 damage with a sneak attack crit.
A 4th level light cleric can in theory deal over 40000 damage in a turn
If the cleric is completely engulfed in a swarm of flying horrors each taking up a 5 ft cube there could be about 900 within 30 ft of him. (Say the cleric is flying as an Arakokra to avoid issues with falling or another creature havng to cast fly or levitate on them) Radiance of the Dawn will do 2d10+4 damage to each one that fails, doubled as they are vulnerable to radiant damage for a max of 48. (Pity the default HP of a flying horror is 49) 900 * 48 = 43200
If that isn't enough asa bonus action they can cast spirtual weapon for an extra 1d8. :-)
While the 40000 is never going to happen a level 4 cleric would easily face a swarm of weak enemies, say 25 goblins and radiance of dawn will wipe out all those that don't make the save (an average of 17.5 and could easily be 20), with the spirual weapon taking out one that makes the save.
Swarms can occupy the space of other creatures, so if we're humoring aoes, those numbers can get absurd.
Sorry if I caused confusion. I didn't mean the "swam of ...." monsters which as far as I am aware are all tiny creatures
I meant swarm in a less technical sense of a large number of low CR monsters (relative the the level of the party). In the example I gave of the party of level 4 characters facing 25 Goblins each goblin would take up a 5 ft space on its own).
The value is it's fun to think about. If you don't find it fun you can just not post.
Yeah you said that the first time Vince. Nothing has changed in the last five posts. No one cares.
The people that like to rag on minmaxers and power-gamers are always stuck on the same three points of empty rhetoric and generally have no idea what they're talking about. I'm perfectly okay not putting any effort to try and appeal to them.
So if that's all, you can kindly leave now.
We've got numbers to crunch and games to ruin. 😈
Wish we still had the mystic class so arseplomancers could still be a valid build.
"h"
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I'm actually not familiar with any form of the mystic because I like to avoid the UA's. Let's me skip the "ah, this shit was nerfed" reaction to when they actually release some of the stuff. But anything that lead to something called an arseplomancer has me very intrigued. Please go on...
If we're talking about potential damage, like with the Chaos Bolt, I think a simple Light Cleric using Radiance of Dawn has that beat, at least in terms of a reliability to potential number of targets ratio. 2d10+4 to anything it wants to target in a 30 foot radius around them with a con save for half. That's a huge aoe and good damage for level 4.
Probably the Grave Cleric wins for single target damage. I saw it mentioned last page but I think it works just fine as a single class for this exercise. Throw on Fey-Touched for the Sleep spell and now you have a way to set people up for an auto-crit second level Inflict Wounds after using Path to the Grave. It's a three turn maneuver, but whatever. Do your best Dragonball Z scream as you power up turn after turn.
No one assumes these numbers will hold up/happen in a real game. But the theorycrafting discussions can be "useful" inasmuch as they help players discover new interactions and learn the rules of the game better, challenging them to stretch their thinking in search of more innovative solutions to the problem presented.
Also some such discussions are just fun.
I don't care for/about nova damage comparisons, though. To me, the better option is to see what you can do to maximize your damage output without expending any resources, completely at-will abilities that are not consumed. One that occurs to me is a Bonk Monk. Because feat cheese always leads to higher damage than raw class abilities. Vhuman, take Crusher at first level and Polearm Master at fourth. Use a quarterstaff. During your turn, hit with the staff, then hit with the monk's free punch or the PAM bonus bonk, since Martial Arts means both are the same damage die. On the second hit, move the target five feet away. When it moves to re-engage, PAM reaction attack.
Less total nova damage than a maximized upcast crit, but those never happen anyways. Bonk Monks can, however, semi-reliably throw out three attacks a round at level 4 without consuming any resources at all, upgrading that to four if they decide to burn a point on Flurry of Blows. You get 2d8+1d4+9 (assuming a Dex of +3, which can be done with standard array), which maxes out at 29 per round. You won't see that, and it sounds super low compared to the upcast turbocharged spell crits...but your 29 per round happens over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. You never run out of 29/round. The clerics dealing ~200 in a single turn (with a turn's set-up, so ~100/round) are done after that turn. That turn feels awesome...but at the end of the day's fifth or sixth combat encounter, when the cleric is gasping for air and down to pithy 1d8-plus-nada cantrips and spell slots are simply a fondly remembered dream, the Bonk Monk is still doing 29/round.
So I suppose it depends on what timeframe one classifies "most damage you can deal", and how many rounds you have to deal that damage in.
Please do not contact or message me.
Why the F*** are you on this thread then?, we would hate to waste your precious time :).
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
The problem with that theory is that hit points are also a resource. Your actual goal is to win the fight with the lowest cost in resources, which includes both your offensive resources (such as action surge) and your defensive resources (hit points, hit dice, second wind, etc). What this means is that, in a three round combat, killing one enemy per round is less valuable than killing two enemies during round 1, zero during round 2, and 1 in round 3, because in the first place you have prevented a total of 3 rounds of attacks (the enemy you kill in round 1 prevents attacks in rounds 2 and 3, the enemy you kill in round 2 prevents attacks in round 3), while in the second you have prevented 4 (2 attacks in each of rounds 2 and 3).
Kotath to be fair you're more "hey, is there a point to this?" and Vince is more "this is just powergamers who are all bad and horrible".
You're fine.
Vince isn't.
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Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
That's a fair shake, Pantagruel. I'd posit that it's easier to start with good at-will damage and scale up than it is to build for an elaborate multi-step Rube Goldberg nova superburst that will overkill just about anything a level 4 has to deal with by a wide margin and then scale down, though. The Bonk Monk can burn ki to get an extra attack in its rotation via Flurry, and other round-over-round characters can occasionally augment specific attacks. They don't match the instantaneous damage of a nova character, but an entire party of novas that all explodes at once is in super deep trouble when the DM reminds them that D&D is supposed to be a game of attrition. Round-over-round reliable damage bois may be beat to hell at the end of a long day, and they could be in trouble if the DM induces a situation where huge burst damage is the answer...but generally you can always rely on at least one guy at the table to be chasing those Mega Deeps Numbaz, ne?
Please do not contact or message me.
Well, for the most part we're just talking about extreme results of pretty normal builds. The great weapon mastery greataxe half-orc battle master I mentioned isn't really optimal, you're better off on average with variant human and a greatsword, but optimizing your cantrip dpr on a spellcaster other than a warlock is pretty much a waste of time, and fighters and paladins rather inherently have high spike potential.
Well if we're talking about more practical applications of damage, offensive output and the like then I think the spike growth abusing Moon Druid is making a great case for itself. Spike Growth adds a layer of battlefield control, the wildshapes offer great defense and offense simultaneously, and grappling with expertise in athletics is more reliable than trying to hit a bunch of attack rolls.
vicious mockery - sure it's only a d4 psychic damage at 4th level but I'd argue the emotional damage to the self esteem of the target is unmeasurable...
#Open D&D
Have the Physical Books? Confused as to why you're not allowed to redeem them for free on D&D Beyond? Questions answered here at the Hardcover Books, D&D Beyond and You FAQ
Looking to add mouse-over triggered tooltips to such things like magic items, monsters or combat actions? Then dash over to the How to Add Tooltips thread.
My rogue at 4th level had 18 DEX, and mostly used a light crossbow for attacking. I didn't have a magic weapon at the time so....I believe on a crit that's 2d8+4d6+4.
4 for dex mod
16 from light crossbow damage crit
24 from sneak attack crit
44 total.
Recently my now level 10 rogue got 60 damage with a sneak attack crit.
A 4th level light cleric can in theory deal over 40000 damage in a turn
If the cleric is completely engulfed in a swarm of flying horrors each taking up a 5 ft cube there could be about 900 within 30 ft of him. (Say the cleric is flying as an Arakokra to avoid issues with falling or another creature havng to cast fly or levitate on them)
Radiance of the Dawn will do 2d10+4 damage to each one that fails, doubled as they are vulnerable to radiant damage for a max of 48. (Pity the default HP of a flying horror is 49)
900 * 48 = 43200
If that isn't enough asa bonus action they can cast spirtual weapon for an extra 1d8. :-)
While the 40000 is never going to happen a level 4 cleric would easily face a swarm of weak enemies, say 25 goblins and radiance of dawn will wipe out all those that don't make the save (an average of 17.5 and could easily be 20), with the spirual weapon taking out one that makes the save.
Swarms can occupy the space of other creatures, so if we're humoring aoes, those numbers can get absurd.
Sorry if I caused confusion. I didn't mean the "swam of ...." monsters which as far as I am aware are all tiny creatures
I meant swarm in a less technical sense of a large number of low CR monsters (relative the the level of the party). In the example I gave of the party of level 4 characters facing 25 Goblins each goblin would take up a 5 ft space on its own).
No confusion, just building on your example. Take everything you said, and then add insect swarms in the same spaces to double the damage potential.
Yeah Light cleric easily takes the cake for low level aoe potential. Radiance of Dawn is a hell of an ability in tier 1.