Yes, it is. Most campaigns don't make the full long run though. Fit your multiclass to your campaign's expected length.
The progression paths of the solo classes are all pretty good. A few slight misses, but mostly good. By multiclassing you're totally garbling them up. So don't expect it to feel consistently good.
Multiclassing is great. It opens up new avenues both in terms of character ability, and roleplay.
One of my players is a Wild Magic Barbarian 7 / Wild Magic Sorcerer 1. Although people will claim "but he can't cast and rage!" it really doesn't matter. The added bonuses of being able to throw Firebolts at range, the time he was hit by a huge fire attack before he could rage and dropped Absorb Elements, and the time he used Mold Earth to cover himself in sand to hide from an adult dragon that was looking for them have all been fantastic. That one level dip really opened the character up to be so much better than a straight barbarian.
Another of my players is a Swashbuckler Rogue 5 / Battlemaster Fighter 3 and the abilities compliment one another really well.
A third player is currently a level 8 Order of the Profane Bloodhunter, and is about to take a level in Wizard, partly for flavour but also because it will just give him a load of added versatility to help out the party who are generally very low on magical solutions.
If you're thinking about the very late game, there is no class that is better as a pure class at level 20 than if they have a 2 level dip in Fighter for Action Surge, especially the pure caster classes since they can cast two spells in the first turn of combat - probably ending it there and then.
10% of all campaigns make it to level 20. There is no "long run" in most campaigns. MC'ing is done so much because it is inherently better for the players when they want to build a power char. Frankly, any future game I run or future char I build will ban MC'ing, but that is not what you asked. If your DM is allowing it, or you have decided to allow it in your game, yes, it makes for a more powerful char.
Not always will it make a more powerful character....
Delaying spell progression for caster for example is generally seen as a bad thing unless you are getting a LOT in return.
Delaying Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern, Revivify, etc....is a HUGE opportunity cost.
Even with martial characters MC before you get to level 5 and miss out on Extra Attack is outright stupid IMO....so No MC does not always produce a more powerful character.
When you're considering multiclassing, you can't just think about whether a dip into level 1 of a secondary class gives you a better advantage than going from 4th to 5th level in your main class. That dip is going to stick with you. When you get your 15th total level, would you rather have your main class's level 15 features, or your multiclass's level 1 features? For almost any build it's going to be your level 15 features. The multiclass would have to be seriously synergistic for it to be worth it.
Of course, people are right, it depends how high of level you're going to. If you'll only make it to level 5, then multiclassing is probably fine. It still means you never get level 3 spells, though, which is pretty sad. Wizard without Fireball. And I think most campaigns probably go to somewhere in tier 2, maybe to 10th level or a little higher. Even at that level, I think it's hard for the multiclass to be worth it, although it might have served some usefulness at lower levels along the way.
Just being a spellcaster and getting your next level of spells a level up behind the rest of your party always feels disappointing, and you feel underpowered as a caster. And yes, it does apply to even multiclassing in two spellcasting classes, because while you get the spell slots of your combined level, you're not allowed to learn spells from either spell list unless your individual class level is high enough.
For non-magic classes or even half-casters, I imagine it's not as bad. For half-casters you're behind your spell level curve only for one in four levels.
I definitely don't think I'd multiclass multiple levels into more than one class. Being a level 3 / level 4 is way weaker than being a level 7. So I would mostly only consider it for classes that get some of their best features at level 1. Like getting an extra d6 sneak attack is pretty good for a fighter who will be making multiple attack rolls and multiple chances to hit per round. And proficiency with Thieves' Tools is just something your party might need if they don't have any other rogue.
I play a warforged druid / 1 level of rogue in my game, and my character's expertise with Thieves' Tools (plus some help from the cleric's Guidance and the bard's inspiration) is the only way we've been getting some over 20 lockpicking checks to access some otherwise inaccessible rooms in the dungeon we're currently in. Yes, I could also cast Stone Shape and melt the door away, or Enlarge / Reduce it, or the wizard could Disintegrate it, but those are more scarce resources.
In the game I DM, I gave the players a "free" level up that they could only use for multiclassing, to give them a chance to play with it without setting themselves back relative to the other players.
I know you will answer that it depends on the subclasses.
But overall you will miss the strongest features in the mid and end game. Being mid/low on multiple classes instead of being strong in one.
P.S - Is dipping worth it?
It depends on classes, too. It's quite easy to only miss out on features that are particularly weak in exchange for features that are particularly strong. For example, even at level 20, Wizard 18->Wizard 20 is, in general (ignoring subclasses with additional scaling):
an ASI
an L6 spell slot
an L7 spell slot
2 L3 spells prepared for free which are castable without a slot 1/short rest each.
EDIT: 2 additional spells prepared.
Wizard 18/Fighter 2 is, assuming you took Fighter 1 as your first level:
+6 HP
Second Wind is worth on average 7.5 HP at Fighter 2
Total: +13.5 HP
Proficiency in all simple weapons, all martial weapons, and all armor and shields; assuming you're Dex 14, for example, this takes your AC from 12 (15 with Mage Armor) to 19 without consuming a spell slot, which is huge.
Proficiency in Constitution saves
Fighting Style, which can be e.g. +1 AC for AC 20 under the above assumptions.
Action Surge 1/short rest
That's surprisingly competitive - Action Surge is a big deal for a wizard. This analysis varies by class, and of course, if you lower the level cap by declaring at what level a campaign will end, the analysis changes there, too. Giving up Druid 20 is a much bigger deal than giving up Druid 19.
I know you will answer that it depends on the subclasses.
But overall you will miss the strongest features in the mid and end game. Being mid/low on multiple classes instead of being strong in one.
P.S - Is dipping worth it?
It depends on classes, too. It's quite easy to only miss out on features that are particularly weak in exchange for features that are particularly strong. For example, even at level 20, Wizard 18->Wizard 20 is, in general (ignoring subclasses with additional scaling):
an ASI
an L6 spell slot
an L7 spell slot
2 L3 spells prepared for free which are castable without a lot 1/short rest each.
Wizard 18/Fighter 2 is, assuming you took the Fighter 1 as your first level:
+6 HP
Second Wind is worth on average 7.5 HP at Fighter 2
Total: +13.5 HP
Proficiency in all simple weapons, all martial weapons, and all armor and shields; assuming you're Dex 14, for example, this takes your AC from 12 (15 with Mage Armor) to 19 without consuming a spell slot, which is huge.
Proficiency in Constitution saves
IIRC you only get proficiency in saves from your original class.
Fighting Style, which can be e.g. +1 AC for AC 20 under the above assumptions.
Action Surge 1/short rest
That's surprisingly competitive - Action Surge is a big deal for a wizard. This analysis varies by class, and of course, if you lower the level cap by declaring at what level a campaign will end, the analysis changes there, too. Giving up Druid 20 is a much bigger deal than giving up Druid 19.
Is action surge that good for a wizard? I guess you can use it to cast a spell and a cantrip on the same turn. At higher levels I guess cantrip damage scales nicely, but the value of a Fighter action also scales with Extra Attack, so I'm not sure there's particularly a lot of synergy there.
Is action surge that good for a wizard? I guess you can use it to cast a spell and a cantrip on the same turn. At higher levels I guess cantrip damage scales nicely, but the value of a Fighter action also scales with Extra Attack, so I'm not sure there's particularly a lot of synergy there.
You can use it to cast two leveled spells in one turn, which is a pretty big deal.
Is action surge that good for a wizard? I guess you can use it to cast a spell and a cantrip on the same turn.
The "you can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action" limitation only applies to casting a spell as a bonus action. If you have the actions, nothing is stopping you from casting two spells with a casting time of one action in a single turn.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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I know you will answer that it depends on the subclasses.
But overall you will miss the strongest features in the mid and end game. Being mid/low on multiple classes instead of being strong in one.
P.S - Is dipping worth it?
It depends on classes, too. It's quite easy to only miss out on features that are particularly weak in exchange for features that are particularly strong. For example, even at level 20, Wizard 18->Wizard 20 is, in general (ignoring subclasses with additional scaling):
an ASI
an L6 spell slot
an L7 spell slot
2 L3 spells prepared for free which are castable without a lot 1/short rest each.
Wizard 18/Fighter 2 is, assuming you took the Fighter 1 as your first level:
+6 HP
Second Wind is worth on average 7.5 HP at Fighter 2
Total: +13.5 HP
Proficiency in all simple weapons, all martial weapons, and all armor and shields; assuming you're Dex 14, for example, this takes your AC from 12 (15 with Mage Armor) to 19 without consuming a spell slot, which is huge.
Proficiency in Constitution saves
IIRC you only get proficiency in saves from your original class.
Fighting Style, which can be e.g. +1 AC for AC 20 under the above assumptions.
Action Surge 1/short rest
That's surprisingly competitive - Action Surge is a big deal for a wizard. This analysis varies by class, and of course, if you lower the level cap by declaring at what level a campaign will end, the analysis changes there, too. Giving up Druid 20 is a much bigger deal than giving up Druid 19.
Is action surge that good for a wizard? I guess you can use it to cast a spell and a cantrip on the same turn. At higher levels I guess cantrip damage scales nicely, but the value of a Fighter action also scales with Extra Attack, so I'm not sure there's particularly a lot of synergy there.
You can cast two leveled spells with Action Surge.
As long as you do not cast a BA spell you can cast as many spells in a turn as you are allowed actions.
In this cast you could get two and there for do a combo like Force Cage then Sickening Radiance and watch them die in the microwave.
Is action surge that good for a wizard? I guess you can use it to cast a spell and a cantrip on the same turn. At higher levels I guess cantrip damage scales nicely, but the value of a Fighter action also scales with Extra Attack, so I'm not sure there's particularly a lot of synergy there.
Action surge is amazing for any caster. You are allowed to cast two leveled spells in the same turn. You can cast a 9th level spell followed by an 8th level spell for some tremendous impact.
The rule you are thinking of is related to bonus action spells. There are no limits to how many leveled spells you can cast per turn (aside from action economy).
It's really good, but it shouldn't be evaluated based on a lvl 20 character. In terms of spells slots the difference between lvl 20 and lvl 18 in wizard is not a big deal and you have access to the highest level spells in both cases (and the benefits of Wizard lvls 19-20 are pretty bleh). Wiz 3-10/Ftr 2 vs Wiz 5-12 though, that lower spell level and reduced number of spell slots is definitely significant, although the benefits of those Fighter levels extend beyond Action Surge as well.
It's really good, but it shouldn't be evaluated based on a lvl 20 character. In terms of spells slots the difference between lvl 20 and lvl 18 in wizard is not a big deal and you have access to the highest level spells in both cases (and the benefits of Wizard lvls 19-20 are pretty bleh). Wiz 3-10/Ftr 2 vs Wiz 5-12 though, that lower spell level and reduced number of spell slots is definitely significant, although the benefits of those Fighter levels extend beyond Action Surge as well.
Yeah exactly its when you pick it up that makes it good.
Fighter 2/Wizard 18 is amazing if you get that right away....otherwise those 2 levels you delayed during play are going to hurt with spell progression.
there are bad mCs that should be avoided but there is nothing wrong with Multiclassing per se. realistically if you think about it from within the character's personality they don't know if they will make it all the way to level 20 - they may die tomorrow or the next adventure. IF MCing will give me boost to my survivability RIGHT NOW then it makes sense to do it. Similarly if something has happened in the game that forces a class change it makes sense. I like to use the FR example of Elminster's early career - after his parents are killed he becomes a rebel fighter. after a few raids he is smart enough to realize they are going to be caught fairly soon so he takes off for the capitol (the largest nearby city) and looses himself in its population making his way as a rogue for several levels until his activities bring him to the BBEG awareness and he is being hunted again. At that point He takes escape Mystra offers and becomes a female cleric for a few levels before finally settling into being a wizard (and chosen). each multiclassing makes sense at the time and makes him a stronger character at the time. Now I'll grant that by 5e rules that means he would only ever be a L14 wizard but that is a different discussion. multiclassing isn't evil, and power building isn't evil but when its done with a ton of metagaming what could be rather than what is right now its bad role playing.
As others have noted, including me, it's really significant at what level you're discussing the issue. Spellcaster slot progression slows down radically from levels 12-17, so up to Wizard 11, a Fighter dip will slow your slots down much more noticeably than it will from Wizard 12 to Wizard 17.
As others have noted, including me, it's really significant at what level you're discussing the issue. Spellcaster slot progression slows down radically from levels 12-17, so up to Wizard 11, a Fighter dip will slow your slots down much more noticeably than it will from Wizard 12 to Wizard 17.
Yeah. I guess it's pretty strong, but not really broken because the dip is fairly costly. I feel like it's better to be a l5 Wizard than a l3 Wizard / l2 Fighter, because one Fireball is probably as good as two l2 spells. But l5 Wizard / l2 Fighter might be better than l7 Wizard in at least some situations, because only the former can throw down two Fireballs in a turn. But they can only do that once.
If I were multiclassing fighter and wizard I'd probably start with Fighter-1 (light/medium/heavy armor, shield, bonus hp, second wind) and then go straight wizard for a while (at least until level 8). Action surge isn't that great until you have enough spells that you can afford to burn them even faster than normal.
I really hate to be the 50th person to say "it depends", but... well.... it depends.
Sure, some classes get amazing end-game abilities at level 17+. But most campaigns never go that far. And sure, even a 2-level dip may make you miss out on that 5th ASI at level 19, but again... most campaigns never go that far.
And there are certain classes that seem to be designed for multi-classing. The Swashbuckler/Battlemaster combo has already been mentioned. Also, the Gloom Stalker Ranger just BEGS for a few levels in rogue. Moon druid and totem barbarian blend seamlessly together.
It's a game. Play what you want. As long as you're having fun, that's what matters most.
I know you will answer that it depends on the subclasses.
But overall you will miss the strongest features in the mid and end game. Being mid/low on multiple classes instead of being strong in one.
P.S - Is dipping worth it?
Yes, it is. Most campaigns don't make the full long run though. Fit your multiclass to your campaign's expected length.
The progression paths of the solo classes are all pretty good. A few slight misses, but mostly good. By multiclassing you're totally garbling them up. So don't expect it to feel consistently good.
Multiclassing is great. It opens up new avenues both in terms of character ability, and roleplay.
One of my players is a Wild Magic Barbarian 7 / Wild Magic Sorcerer 1. Although people will claim "but he can't cast and rage!" it really doesn't matter. The added bonuses of being able to throw Firebolts at range, the time he was hit by a huge fire attack before he could rage and dropped Absorb Elements, and the time he used Mold Earth to cover himself in sand to hide from an adult dragon that was looking for them have all been fantastic. That one level dip really opened the character up to be so much better than a straight barbarian.
Another of my players is a Swashbuckler Rogue 5 / Battlemaster Fighter 3 and the abilities compliment one another really well.
A third player is currently a level 8 Order of the Profane Bloodhunter, and is about to take a level in Wizard, partly for flavour but also because it will just give him a load of added versatility to help out the party who are generally very low on magical solutions.
If you're thinking about the very late game, there is no class that is better as a pure class at level 20 than if they have a 2 level dip in Fighter for Action Surge, especially the pure caster classes since they can cast two spells in the first turn of combat - probably ending it there and then.
Depends highly on the campaign, the party, the build, your aim with the build, and what is allowed for options by the DM.
Without knowing any of that its hard to say if its bad or not.
Not always will it make a more powerful character....
Delaying spell progression for caster for example is generally seen as a bad thing unless you are getting a LOT in return.
Delaying Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern, Revivify, etc....is a HUGE opportunity cost.
Even with martial characters MC before you get to level 5 and miss out on Extra Attack is outright stupid IMO....so No MC does not always produce a more powerful character.
When you're considering multiclassing, you can't just think about whether a dip into level 1 of a secondary class gives you a better advantage than going from 4th to 5th level in your main class. That dip is going to stick with you. When you get your 15th total level, would you rather have your main class's level 15 features, or your multiclass's level 1 features? For almost any build it's going to be your level 15 features. The multiclass would have to be seriously synergistic for it to be worth it.
Of course, people are right, it depends how high of level you're going to. If you'll only make it to level 5, then multiclassing is probably fine. It still means you never get level 3 spells, though, which is pretty sad. Wizard without Fireball. And I think most campaigns probably go to somewhere in tier 2, maybe to 10th level or a little higher. Even at that level, I think it's hard for the multiclass to be worth it, although it might have served some usefulness at lower levels along the way.
Just being a spellcaster and getting your next level of spells a level up behind the rest of your party always feels disappointing, and you feel underpowered as a caster. And yes, it does apply to even multiclassing in two spellcasting classes, because while you get the spell slots of your combined level, you're not allowed to learn spells from either spell list unless your individual class level is high enough.
For non-magic classes or even half-casters, I imagine it's not as bad. For half-casters you're behind your spell level curve only for one in four levels.
I definitely don't think I'd multiclass multiple levels into more than one class. Being a level 3 / level 4 is way weaker than being a level 7. So I would mostly only consider it for classes that get some of their best features at level 1. Like getting an extra d6 sneak attack is pretty good for a fighter who will be making multiple attack rolls and multiple chances to hit per round. And proficiency with Thieves' Tools is just something your party might need if they don't have any other rogue.
I play a warforged druid / 1 level of rogue in my game, and my character's expertise with Thieves' Tools (plus some help from the cleric's Guidance and the bard's inspiration) is the only way we've been getting some over 20 lockpicking checks to access some otherwise inaccessible rooms in the dungeon we're currently in. Yes, I could also cast Stone Shape and melt the door away, or Enlarge / Reduce it, or the wizard could Disintegrate it, but those are more scarce resources.
In the game I DM, I gave the players a "free" level up that they could only use for multiclassing, to give them a chance to play with it without setting themselves back relative to the other players.
It depends on classes, too. It's quite easy to only miss out on features that are particularly weak in exchange for features that are particularly strong. For example, even at level 20, Wizard 18->Wizard 20 is, in general (ignoring subclasses with additional scaling):
Wizard 18/Fighter 2 is, assuming you took Fighter 1 as your first level:
That's surprisingly competitive - Action Surge is a big deal for a wizard. This analysis varies by class, and of course, if you lower the level cap by declaring at what level a campaign will end, the analysis changes there, too. Giving up Druid 20 is a much bigger deal than giving up Druid 19.
IIRC you only get proficiency in saves from your original class.
Is action surge that good for a wizard? I guess you can use it to cast a spell and a cantrip on the same turn. At higher levels I guess cantrip damage scales nicely, but the value of a Fighter action also scales with Extra Attack, so I'm not sure there's particularly a lot of synergy there.
Correct. I specifically addressed this.
You can use it to cast two leveled spells in one turn, which is a pretty big deal.
The "you can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action" limitation only applies to casting a spell as a bonus action. If you have the actions, nothing is stopping you from casting two spells with a casting time of one action in a single turn.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
You can cast two leveled spells with Action Surge.
As long as you do not cast a BA spell you can cast as many spells in a turn as you are allowed actions.
In this cast you could get two and there for do a combo like Force Cage then Sickening Radiance and watch them die in the microwave.
Action surge is amazing for any caster. You are allowed to cast two leveled spells in the same turn. You can cast a 9th level spell followed by an 8th level spell for some tremendous impact.
The rule you are thinking of is related to bonus action spells. There are no limits to how many leveled spells you can cast per turn (aside from action economy).
Wow, that seems borderline broken, actually.
It's really good, but it shouldn't be evaluated based on a lvl 20 character. In terms of spells slots the difference between lvl 20 and lvl 18 in wizard is not a big deal and you have access to the highest level spells in both cases (and the benefits of Wizard lvls 19-20 are pretty bleh). Wiz 3-10/Ftr 2 vs Wiz 5-12 though, that lower spell level and reduced number of spell slots is definitely significant, although the benefits of those Fighter levels extend beyond Action Surge as well.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Yeah exactly its when you pick it up that makes it good.
Fighter 2/Wizard 18 is amazing if you get that right away....otherwise those 2 levels you delayed during play are going to hurt with spell progression.
there are bad mCs that should be avoided but there is nothing wrong with Multiclassing per se. realistically if you think about it from within the character's personality they don't know if they will make it all the way to level 20 - they may die tomorrow or the next adventure. IF MCing will give me boost to my survivability RIGHT NOW then it makes sense to do it. Similarly if something has happened in the game that forces a class change it makes sense. I like to use the FR example of Elminster's early career - after his parents are killed he becomes a rebel fighter. after a few raids he is smart enough to realize they are going to be caught fairly soon so he takes off for the capitol (the largest nearby city) and looses himself in its population making his way as a rogue for several levels until his activities bring him to the BBEG awareness and he is being hunted again. At that point He takes escape Mystra offers and becomes a female cleric for a few levels before finally settling into being a wizard (and chosen). each multiclassing makes sense at the time and makes him a stronger character at the time. Now I'll grant that by 5e rules that means he would only ever be a L14 wizard but that is a different discussion. multiclassing isn't evil, and power building isn't evil but when its done with a ton of metagaming what could be rather than what is right now its bad role playing.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
As others have noted, including me, it's really significant at what level you're discussing the issue. Spellcaster slot progression slows down radically from levels 12-17, so up to Wizard 11, a Fighter dip will slow your slots down much more noticeably than it will from Wizard 12 to Wizard 17.
Yeah. I guess it's pretty strong, but not really broken because the dip is fairly costly. I feel like it's better to be a l5 Wizard than a l3 Wizard / l2 Fighter, because one Fireball is probably as good as two l2 spells. But l5 Wizard / l2 Fighter might be better than l7 Wizard in at least some situations, because only the former can throw down two Fireballs in a turn. But they can only do that once.
If I were multiclassing fighter and wizard I'd probably start with Fighter-1 (light/medium/heavy armor, shield, bonus hp, second wind) and then go straight wizard for a while (at least until level 8). Action surge isn't that great until you have enough spells that you can afford to burn them even faster than normal.
I really hate to be the 50th person to say "it depends", but... well.... it depends.
Sure, some classes get amazing end-game abilities at level 17+. But most campaigns never go that far. And sure, even a 2-level dip may make you miss out on that 5th ASI at level 19, but again... most campaigns never go that far.
And there are certain classes that seem to be designed for multi-classing. The Swashbuckler/Battlemaster combo has already been mentioned. Also, the Gloom Stalker Ranger just BEGS for a few levels in rogue. Moon druid and totem barbarian blend seamlessly together.
It's a game. Play what you want. As long as you're having fun, that's what matters most.
Anzio Faro. Protector Aasimar light cleric. Lvl 18.
Viktor Gavriil. White dragonborn grave cleric. Lvl 20.
Ikram Sahir ibn-Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad. Brass dragonborn draconic sorcerer Lvl 9. Fire elemental devil.
Wrangler of cats.