I rule that Invisible does mean undetectable unless a player spends an action looking for it, and that includes for players as well.
Poltergeists for instance are undetectable until one either attacks the player, or does something else like move a book etc. Wilo Wisps are the same.
Now as soon as an attack happens the players know where the attack has come from, and have a chance to determine where the creature has moved to (if it moves) but an invisible enemy should be a surprise to the characters, it shouldn't be able to one shot them but it should provide a different type of challenge.
That is a massive power boost for Invisibility that is not factored in to basic game structures like CR and spell levels, and it guts any features that facilitate Hiding like Cunning Action. You can easily run these creatures as undetectable RAW by just having them use the Hide action when they want to be hidden.
I've never seen a "you don't know what is attacking you or where it is" encounter that didn't immediately frustrate the players. It's certainly a different type of challenge, but different isn't always good. It tends to spawn ideas like the ol' bag of flour that distances you even further from the rules and sets precedents which you may regret later.
Just to reiterate, I think you can have all the benefits of scaring the party without things feeling unfair or deviating from the RAW by just focusing on "you know something's there, but you don't know what it is."
Like I said the creatures are invisible until one attacks, at that point if a character is engaged they know there is something fighting them (attacking with disadvantage) if a creature has attacked from range then the characters might have a sense of where it is but as stated an action can be burnt to be sure. My campaigns tend to be for a large number of players (6-10, one campaign was 11) so losing one action in a round of combat to spot an enemy that is invisible isn't a massive drain on resources and narratively it makes sense. If a thing is invisible then how do you know it's there simply by using your sight?
The poltergeist example is a great one, party entered a large abandoned library in an underground temple, books scattered on the floor. 4 Poltergeists where in the area, the party entered and the poltergeists drifted amongst them invisible, players rolled perception (I prefer rolling to using passive for things like this) got a sense of wind and a faint smell of dampness in the air as one went by them. I gave them about 2-3 mins of game time for someone to state they cast fairy fire, or see invisible etc. None of them did so the poltergeists attacked. 2 of them engaged in melee, 2 of them attacked from distance, the 2 in melee the characters and their allies could see they where being attacked, so had a vague idea where to aim, the 2 that had attacked from range one character spent an action tracking them and spotted the disturbance in the air. Next round the 2 that where not in melee didn't attack and so the party post all track of where they were for a round but still had the 2 to attack.
For me it is where it makes narrative sense though, Ghosts, Poltergeists, shadows etc it makes sense to have them fade in and out of sight and the party lose all track as they are not physical creatures with foot steps etc, a physical creature that went invisible would be more obvious when invisible because they can't pass through things and do walk on the ground.
This for me is where the DM can have artistic licence and be creative without breaking the game.
I had great fun using a Green Hag to torment my players. The hag has two magical abilities usable as Actions, not a Spells which make them wonderful:
Illusory Appearance Invisible Passage
One hag alone can be fun for low-level parties at CR3. The hag can turn invisible, move to another room, take illusory Appearance to trick the characters then turn invisible and run off. A full coven can be deadly since they get a pool of spells to attack with, but if you want to roast the party with lightning use a blue dragon. Instead of a stand-up fight hags are setup for great hit and run attacks.
I will say most invisible abilities are lost when a creature attacks, so are you suggesting giving this creature permanent invisibility? Or making turning invisible a bonus action that it can do as many times as it wants in a day?
I will say most invisible abilities are lost when a creature attacks, so are you suggesting giving this creature permanent invisibility? Or making turning invisible a bonus action that it can do as many times as it wants in a day?
My original question is specifically about another creature (the BBEG) casting Greater Invisibility on the monster, which wont be dropped by attacking or casting spells so long as the caster does not lose concentration
So I am envisioning a situation like the BBEG casts it on their minion and sends them after the party in the next room or something, that way the BBEG is safely hidden away while the invisible creature wreaks havoc for 1 minute.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews!Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
What about using a Zombie Beholder (CR5 critter) for your idea? You can have an invisible floating 'death' ray and if the BBEG is a Sorcerer with Twin Spell then he can be inivisble too. The key to the Zombie Beholder would be to use an eye ray then move each turn to limit the party targeting the place where the ray originated.
Other magic wise, the Nondetection spell (if using a sorcerer this would need a spell scroll or an Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location) would be the BBEGs friend to get around divination magic finding him, this would leave his minion at the mercy of the party but ultimately the BBEG is a BBEG for a reason so should only care about his own saftey.
I will say most invisible abilities are lost when a creature attacks, so are you suggesting giving this creature permanent invisibility? Or making turning invisible a bonus action that it can do as many times as it wants in a day?
My original question is specifically about another creature (the BBEG) casting Greater Invisibility on the monster, which wont be dropped by attacking or casting spells so long as the caster does not lose concentration
So I am envisioning a situation like the BBEG casts it on their minion and sends them after the party in the next room or something, that way the BBEG is safely hidden away while the invisible creature wreaks havoc for 1 minute.
Again I will point out that this might be effective against a low level party, but otherwise, meh. Weather (fog, heavy rain), ground cover (crunchy leaves, fallen snow), and sound (clanking boots, talons scraping across the stone floor) are the most obvious greater invisibility nerfs. See invisibility should be a standard buff for one PC before even entering a dangerous location. Assuming the buffed PC has a pouch of ball bearings, or someone has faerie fire, spike growth, or any of a number of different spells, your "invisible" minion isn't gonna be that scary and certainly won't "wreak havoc for 1 minute" as per your stated goal.
The two in bold basically require me, the DM, to set the environment that way, which I wont do if I want the monster sneak up on them.
Having See Invisibility prepared is not a guarantee. Honestly, for my group I do not know if I have ever had someone learn/prepare that spell. They might do that after their first encounter like this, but its unlikely they would have it prepared for the first iteration.
Everything else you listed I consider to be creative solutions to the problem, and I do not have an issue with if the players utilize them. Chances are, if the party isnt used to fighting invisible creatures they wont have any of these countermeasures prepared. The best they can hope for is a creative use of a spell they have prepared (like Spike Growth). Even then, just because they know its location they still cannot see it, so attacks are still made at disadvantage.
Not to mention, monster choice could also play heavily into which methods of detection are effective or not. If the monster has a fly speed, then you dont have to worry about ball bearings, spike growth, or the sound of footsteps. If faerie fire is the concern, the BBEG could turn another spellcasting minion invisible who has counterspell prepared.
(Also, just to make sure there is no misunderstanding, this is not something I am actually trying to make as an encounter right now. Its more of a fun hypothetical I wanted to pose to the forum)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews!Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
I will say most invisible abilities are lost when a creature attacks, so are you suggesting giving this creature permanent invisibility? Or making turning invisible a bonus action that it can do as many times as it wants in a day?
My original question is specifically about another creature (the BBEG) casting Greater Invisibility on the monster, which wont be dropped by attacking or casting spells so long as the caster does not lose concentration
So I am envisioning a situation like the BBEG casts it on their minion and sends them after the party in the next room or something, that way the BBEG is safely hidden away while the invisible creature wreaks havoc for 1 minute.
Again I will point out that this might be effective against a low level party, but otherwise, meh. Weather (fog, heavy rain), ground cover (crunchy leaves, fallen snow), and sound (clanking boots, talons scraping across the stone floor) are the most obvious greater invisibility nerfs. See invisibility should be a standard buff for one PC before even entering a dangerous location. Assuming the buffed PC has a pouch of ball bearings, or someone has faerie fire, spike growth, or any of a number of different spells, your "invisible" minion isn't gonna be that scary and certainly won't "wreak havoc for 1 minute" as per your stated goal.
The two in bold basically require me, the DM, to set the environment that way, which I wont do if I want the monster sneak up on them.
Having See Invisibility prepared is not a guarantee. Honestly, for my group I do not know if I have ever had someone learn/prepare that spell. They might do that after their first encounter like this, but its unlikely they would have it prepared for the first iteration.
Everything else you listed I consider to be creative solutions to the problem, and I do not have an issue with if the players utilize them. Chances are, if the party isnt used to fighting invisible creatures they wont have any of these countermeasures prepared. The best they can hope for is a creative use of a spell they have prepared (like Spike Growth). Even then, just because they know its location they still cannot see it, so attacks are still made at disadvantage.
Not to mention, monster choice could also play heavily into which methods of detection are effective or not. If the monster has a fly speed, then you dont have to worry about ball bearings, spike growth, or the sound of footsteps. If faerie fire is the concern, the BBEG could turn another spellcasting minion invisible who has counterspell prepared.
(Also, just to make sure there is no misunderstanding, this is not something I am actually trying to make as an encounter right now. Its more of a fun hypothetical I wanted to pose to the forum)
It seems that to some extent we are saying the same thing - its one of those "fool me once" encounters. Like "omg, bad guys can FLY?!?!?"
As for the frequency players use see invisibility, I think it is determinant on several factors. The biggest is that a lot of players don't have command of different aspects of spells, such as duration, as opposed to what the spells do. In our group we put each PC's spells on a separate spreadsheet, with columns for cast time, concentration, duration, aoe, etc, so at a glance they can see spell durations and other info for all their spells. So see invisibility becomes a more obvious choice to prepare in such a case - few buff spells can persist thru an entire dungeon the way see invisibility can, and without concentration. In the broader perspective, with 5e nerfing buff spells via the concentration mechanism, no-concentration buffs like see invisibility have become more valuable.
Level is also a factor. At the mid-high levels, it becomes increasingly difficult to challenge players using monsters that have no casting ability or spell like powers - and invisibility becomes increasingly common. So good players will prepare for that eventuality (after getting caught once napping at least lol), and using a single 2nd level spell prior to going into a dungeon is a cheap way to be prepared for such threats.
Finally, there is DM style differences. When I design encounters, I don't do it from a perspective of "I know these toons, let me design something they wont be ready for" (I am NOT saying you do btw), I do it from the bbg's perspective. What does he know, if anything, about the PCs? Does he even know they, specifically, are coming? What kind of enemies is he used to facing, and is he therefore skewed toward preparing for THAT type of enemy? What is the bbg's combat experience? What are his motivations? In general, my bad guys have no more idea they are about to face the PCs than the PCs know they are about to face the bbg. No more, no less, in general. So your hypothetical scenario is a bit of a non-starter to me - if the bbg is high enough level to have greater invisibility, and faces high enough level enemies that he would need to buff his minion with it, then he is high enough level to know how easily countered it is. Unless of course he has inside info on the unpreparedness of the players who are directing the PCs.....
Assuming you have casters in the party that can get the spell. If you have a Non-Twilight Cleric, Any Druid, or Any warlock then they will not have See Invisibility.
Druid can get farie fire but may not prep it all the time....if you go enough time without using it they may forgo it.
Higher level means that the Minion themselves might be able to cast 4th level spells....so you have a minion cast the Greater Invisibility on another Minion.
The other thing is that you are drastically underestimating how much DIS and ADV decrease/increase your damage respectively. This is why this is a good though experiment as you could see which creature would be benefitted the most.
My list would include:
1.) Creature with lots of attacks or 1 really big attack with lots of damage (Makes best use of the ADV generated from being invisible)
2.) Creature with high DEX save (counters low level spells like Faerie Fire) or Counterspell (can't see me if you can't cast your spell to see me!)
3.) Creature with intrinsic spellcasting (you cannot counterspell a creature that you cannot see...)
If we're talking minions, plural, I would be quite terrified to be in a room full of invisible Shadows. They are only CR 1/2 monsters, but every successful hit drains 1d4 strength from a victim and if the victim's strength drops to zero they die with no death saves. The damage is necrotic. Shadows are brutal for a CR 1/2 monster in my view.
Slaad have some fun horror flavor, but ultimately for a party of adventurers their infections aren't that scary unless you either tweak things away from RAW to make it harder to handle, or you happen to have a party without access to lesser restoration/lay on hands etc.
I was going to say medusas, but double checking you have to be able to see them not just them seeing you so that wouldn't work.
Anything with a nasty effect on a crit, or breath like aoes where the party can't see where they are and thus can't reliably try to spread out to avoid everyone getting hit would be bad.
If we're talking minions, plural, I would be quite terrified to be in a room full of invisible Shadows. They are only CR 1/2 monsters, but every successful hit drains 1d4 strength from a victim and if the victim's strength drops to zero they die with no death saves. The damage is necrotic. Shadows are brutal for a CR 1/2 monster in my view.
Shadows are quite possibly OP for their challenge rating, especially since their strength drain is something that no other enemy has.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Something like a troll would be a fairly bad one to face - if the players aren't aware that it's a troll, they wouldn't know that their non-flaming attacks were basically worthless.
Resistance is probably something worthwhile playing with for this - monsters with resistance or immunity, without the means for the party to identify them as such (or even notice that their attacks weren't working properly).
Rust Monsters or Shadows are both good scary ones. effects rather than damage - perhaps a gibbering mouther could be a fairly concerning one, hearing these echoing gibberish noises as the floor seems to become soft...
Beholder as you would not know where it is looking so good luck casting spells
Like I said the creatures are invisible until one attacks, at that point if a character is engaged they know there is something fighting them (attacking with disadvantage) if a creature has attacked from range then the characters might have a sense of where it is but as stated an action can be burnt to be sure. My campaigns tend to be for a large number of players (6-10, one campaign was 11) so losing one action in a round of combat to spot an enemy that is invisible isn't a massive drain on resources and narratively it makes sense. If a thing is invisible then how do you know it's there simply by using your sight?
The poltergeist example is a great one, party entered a large abandoned library in an underground temple, books scattered on the floor. 4 Poltergeists where in the area, the party entered and the poltergeists drifted amongst them invisible, players rolled perception (I prefer rolling to using passive for things like this) got a sense of wind and a faint smell of dampness in the air as one went by them. I gave them about 2-3 mins of game time for someone to state they cast fairy fire, or see invisible etc. None of them did so the poltergeists attacked. 2 of them engaged in melee, 2 of them attacked from distance, the 2 in melee the characters and their allies could see they where being attacked, so had a vague idea where to aim, the 2 that had attacked from range one character spent an action tracking them and spotted the disturbance in the air. Next round the 2 that where not in melee didn't attack and so the party post all track of where they were for a round but still had the 2 to attack.
For me it is where it makes narrative sense though, Ghosts, Poltergeists, shadows etc it makes sense to have them fade in and out of sight and the party lose all track as they are not physical creatures with foot steps etc, a physical creature that went invisible would be more obvious when invisible because they can't pass through things and do walk on the ground.
This for me is where the DM can have artistic licence and be creative without breaking the game.
I had great fun using a Green Hag to torment my players. The hag has two magical abilities usable as Actions, not a Spells which make them wonderful:
Illusory Appearance
Invisible Passage
One hag alone can be fun for low-level parties at CR3. The hag can turn invisible, move to another room, take illusory Appearance to trick the characters then turn invisible and run off. A full coven can be deadly since they get a pool of spells to attack with, but if you want to roast the party with lightning use a blue dragon. Instead of a stand-up fight hags are setup for great hit and run attacks.
I will say most invisible abilities are lost when a creature attacks, so are you suggesting giving this creature permanent invisibility? Or making turning invisible a bonus action that it can do as many times as it wants in a day?
My original question is specifically about another creature (the BBEG) casting Greater Invisibility on the monster, which wont be dropped by attacking or casting spells so long as the caster does not lose concentration
So I am envisioning a situation like the BBEG casts it on their minion and sends them after the party in the next room or something, that way the BBEG is safely hidden away while the invisible creature wreaks havoc for 1 minute.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
What about using a Zombie Beholder (CR5 critter) for your idea? You can have an invisible floating 'death' ray and if the BBEG is a Sorcerer with Twin Spell then he can be inivisble too. The key to the Zombie Beholder would be to use an eye ray then move each turn to limit the party targeting the place where the ray originated.
Other magic wise, the Nondetection spell (if using a sorcerer this would need a spell scroll or an Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location) would be the BBEGs friend to get around divination magic finding him, this would leave his minion at the mercy of the party but ultimately the BBEG is a BBEG for a reason so should only care about his own saftey.
The two in bold basically require me, the DM, to set the environment that way, which I wont do if I want the monster sneak up on them.
Having See Invisibility prepared is not a guarantee. Honestly, for my group I do not know if I have ever had someone learn/prepare that spell. They might do that after their first encounter like this, but its unlikely they would have it prepared for the first iteration.
Everything else you listed I consider to be creative solutions to the problem, and I do not have an issue with if the players utilize them. Chances are, if the party isnt used to fighting invisible creatures they wont have any of these countermeasures prepared. The best they can hope for is a creative use of a spell they have prepared (like Spike Growth). Even then, just because they know its location they still cannot see it, so attacks are still made at disadvantage.
Not to mention, monster choice could also play heavily into which methods of detection are effective or not. If the monster has a fly speed, then you dont have to worry about ball bearings, spike growth, or the sound of footsteps. If faerie fire is the concern, the BBEG could turn another spellcasting minion invisible who has counterspell prepared.
(Also, just to make sure there is no misunderstanding, this is not something I am actually trying to make as an encounter right now. Its more of a fun hypothetical I wanted to pose to the forum)
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Assuming you have casters in the party that can get the spell. If you have a Non-Twilight Cleric, Any Druid, or Any warlock then they will not have See Invisibility.
Druid can get farie fire but may not prep it all the time....if you go enough time without using it they may forgo it.
Higher level means that the Minion themselves might be able to cast 4th level spells....so you have a minion cast the Greater Invisibility on another Minion.
The other thing is that you are drastically underestimating how much DIS and ADV decrease/increase your damage respectively. This is why this is a good though experiment as you could see which creature would be benefitted the most.
My list would include:
1.) Creature with lots of attacks or 1 really big attack with lots of damage (Makes best use of the ADV generated from being invisible)
2.) Creature with high DEX save (counters low level spells like Faerie Fire) or Counterspell (can't see me if you can't cast your spell to see me!)
3.) Creature with intrinsic spellcasting (you cannot counterspell a creature that you cannot see...)
If we're talking minions, plural, I would be quite terrified to be in a room full of invisible Shadows. They are only CR 1/2 monsters, but every successful hit drains 1d4 strength from a victim and if the victim's strength drops to zero they die with no death saves. The damage is necrotic. Shadows are brutal for a CR 1/2 monster in my view.
Slaad have some fun horror flavor, but ultimately for a party of adventurers their infections aren't that scary unless you either tweak things away from RAW to make it harder to handle, or you happen to have a party without access to lesser restoration/lay on hands etc.
I was going to say medusas, but double checking you have to be able to see them not just them seeing you so that wouldn't work.
Anything with a nasty effect on a crit, or breath like aoes where the party can't see where they are and thus can't reliably try to spread out to avoid everyone getting hit would be bad.
Shadows are quite possibly OP for their challenge rating, especially since their strength drain is something that no other enemy has.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Something like a troll would be a fairly bad one to face - if the players aren't aware that it's a troll, they wouldn't know that their non-flaming attacks were basically worthless.
Resistance is probably something worthwhile playing with for this - monsters with resistance or immunity, without the means for the party to identify them as such (or even notice that their attacks weren't working properly).
Rust Monsters or Shadows are both good scary ones. effects rather than damage - perhaps a gibbering mouther could be a fairly concerning one, hearing these echoing gibberish noises as the floor seems to become soft...
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!