Hey all! Is there an official rule on whether one could for example, set Eldrich Blast to "stun" so to speak, in order to inflict non-lethal damage and knock a creature out? Similar to how one can do this for a melee attack?
I think thats not much of a botter in this matter.
The rules are just tools to make the game work properlly, but we may remember that the narrative are always the most important thing in a roleplay. So, even if knocking out is "restrict" to meele (as mention before, not that I found the rule on that) it's totally up for the DM.
But even within the rules lets take a look:
HP for PCs, NPCs and monsters are just a way to measure the amount of time they can get "up" in a damaging situation, and go 0 HP doesnt represent exactly dying (thats why death saves exist). Let's remember that the sources mention:
"Most DMs have a monster die the instant it drops to 0 hit points, rather than having it fall unconscious and make death saving throws. Mighty villains and special nonplayer characters are common exceptions; the DM might have them fall unconscious and follow the same rules as player characters."
So thats not a core rule but a preference for making the game flow better with minions or non-important monsters.
Thinking on that, any time a foe reach 0 HP and the party wants it to fall unsconsious instead of die instantly, I would say the players have a fair point to do it so, no matter what kind of damage it takes (unless it takes negative max HP). The DM can roll death saves for that foe and the players have that amount of rounds to try to stabilize it before it dies.
However, its totally up for the DM and I think it must be a thing only when it have a narrative matter, so the game flow does not break with useless interactions.
This is one of the very, very few things that are limited to melee attacks. There are a ton of spells that incapacitate enemies without killing them, but they are separate from the boom-boom-shooty spells.
Thats true. The "knocking a creature out" are limited to melee attacks (weapon or spells).
However, knocking out stands to incapacitate instead of killing (as to take that foe right to unconsciousness), but still the DM can always put that foe to death saves instead of instant death whenever it wants after anytime it reach 0 HP, right?
Thats true. The "knocking a creature out" are limited to melee attacks (weapon or spells).
However, knocking out stands to incapacitate instead of killing (as to take that foe right to unconsciousness), but still the DM can always put that foe to death saves instead of instant death whenever it wants after anytime it reach 0 HP, right?
Your eyebrows should go all the way up any time a DM refuses to allow NPCs to have death saves (unless the NPC takes so much damage they die outright, like a PC would). NPCs are only supposed to skip death saves when they don't carry any narrative significance - and by definition, any NPC the PCs care about has narrative significance. A DM has the ability to skip death saves on all NPCs forever, but only a bad DM will do so across the board.
Your eyebrows should go all the way up any time a DM refuses to allow NPCs to have death saves
Thats a preciptation of yours. I understand that the DM has the call, either when I play or when I DM, and my eyebrows don't need to go up for any plausable decisions or issues.
NPCs are only supposed to skip death saves when they don't carry any narrative significance - and by definition, any NPC the PCs care about has narrative significance. A DM has the ability to skip death saves on all NPCs forever, but only a bad DM will do so across the board.
That it, in other words, what I've said. The DM have the call on even skip or not whenever it wants (and that assumes that when it wants it is for a narrative matter).
You can always discuss with the DM if you want to make a non-lethal version of the spell. If I may shamelessly plug my homebrew cantrip as an example: Silver Fire Bolt
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Thats true. The "knocking a creature out" are limited to melee attacks (weapon or spells).
However, knocking out stands to incapacitate instead of killing (as to take that foe right to unconsciousness), but still the DM can always put that foe to death saves instead of instant death whenever it wants after anytime it reach 0 HP, right?
Your eyebrows should go all the way up any time a DM refuses to allow NPCs to have death saves (unless the NPC takes so much damage they die outright, like a PC would). NPCs are only supposed to skip death saves when they don't carry any narrative significance - and by definition, any NPC the PCs care about has narrative significance. A DM has the ability to skip death saves on all NPCs forever, but only a bad DM will do so across the board.
I'm sort of of two minds about this. I mean, I agree that NPCs who matter should get the same chance to survive a brush with death as the PCs, for a number of reasons. But it still kind of bugs me that for a ranger bounty hunter looking to bring their quarry in alive for a higher payout the best option might be to stay out of easy detection range, shoot lethal arrows until the target looks like pincushion, walk over, tie them up, and then heal the poor sod. I'm definitely ok with a DM for such a scenario deciding that nah, dude be dead the moment he hit the dirt. The death save mechanic exists, I believe anyway, to make the game less gritty - not to turn being-a-murderhobo-but-not-really into some sort of easy mode exploit.
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Presumably the idea is that you can control a melee strike better, or do something like hit with the flat of a sword blade. This rationale brings up the headscratcher of how you hit with the flat side of a giant hammer in a way that's less lethal than...the other flat side of the same giant hammer. Or how you deal full damage with a piercing weapon in a way that doesn't leave the target bleeding out. Additionally, the way movies/television/comics/etc portray a "harmless" bonk to the back of the head to "safely" incapacitate someone is rather unrealistic and would frequently run the risk of causing a concussion, fractured skull, or a number of other serious and possibly fatal injuries when done with enough force to knock the subject unconscious.
This all quickly gets into the realm of pedantic and pointless overanalysis that almost always results from attempting to apply real world science to a game of make believe with abstracted rules intended for smooth play more than actual "realism" in a world that has goblins shooting lightning from their fingertips. So my suggestion is ask your DM what their rules for this sort of thing are and just go with that.
Purely RAW, melee attacks can be nonlethal, as decided by the attacking character when the target is reduced to zero hp. Also strictly RAW, a melee spell attack is different from a melee attack (mechanically they use different ability score bonuses for the rolls), so shocking hands is not usable as a nonlethal taser substitute. There is no stun setting on a fireball, and you can't drain "just enough" life force with an inflict wounds spell. Again, DM fiat always applies if they want to house rule it otherwise.
Another alternative to consider if you're trying to take a monster/NPC alive is to grant them the narrative importance to allow them death saves (again, DM fiat) at which point your lethal damage doesn't kill them outright (unless massive damage applies) and you can either hope they roll well enough to stabilize or help them out with medicine checks or spare the dying.
So to sum it up in the most common simple three word answer in D&D, ask your DM.
The death save mechanic exists, I believe anyway, to make the game less gritty - not to turn being-a-murderhobo-but-not-really into some sort of easy mode exploit.
Yeah, thats exactly what I meant right back there. The original question in the forum is "in order to inflict non-lethal damage and knock a creature out? Similar to how one can do this for a melee attack?" So other than "knocking out right unconscious and stable" there's always the death saves (and of course there's no need to use it when it don't have a matter in the role).
Let's assum a renger are supose to take some foe for any reason alive, but the foe is too far for the ranger to get in melee and in a higher speed. There's no reason for stuck on "the knockin out rule melee limitation" and the PC can hope to take the foe dawn with the blow and rush to stabilize it before it lost to much blood.
I mean, its a role-playing game not a bunch-of-rules game and even within the rules the death save situation still appliable, its disposable just to make the game flow better when the chance of that foe keep alive have no porpouse in the narrative so it can just drop dead.
Also strictly RAW, a melee spell attack is different from a melee attack (mechanically they use different ability score bonuses for the rolls), so shocking hands is not usable as a nonlethal taser substitute.
A melee attack covers both weapons and spells, so you can absolutely taser someone with shocking grasp. Using spells to incapacitate is confirmed in Sage Advice.
Also strictly RAW, a melee spell attack is different from a melee attack (mechanically they use different ability score bonuses for the rolls), so shocking hands is not usable as a nonlethal taser substitute.
A melee attack covers both weapons and spells, so you can absolutely taser someone with shocking grasp. Using spells to incapacitate is confirmed in Sage Advice.
I get that a general rule is necessary to keep things manageable, but a spell like Flame Blade doing nonlethal fire damage stretches the imagination quite a bit.
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Also strictly RAW, a melee spell attack is different from a melee attack (mechanically they use different ability score bonuses for the rolls), so shocking hands is not usable as a nonlethal taser substitute.
A melee attack covers both weapons and spells, so you can absolutely taser someone with shocking grasp. Using spells to incapacitate is confirmed in Sage Advice.
I get that a general rule is necessary to keep things manageable, but a spell like Flame Blade doing nonlethal fire damage stretches the imagination quite a bit.
I don't see a need of stretching imagination. Here how I deal with this:
It's true we usually see spellcasting as a "instant uncontrollable burst of deadlly energy" but I think the better way to deal with those things in DnD is that a spellcaster have enought control on its magic (if not, wild magic wouldn't be a thing) to moderate the damage dealing.
For Flame Blade for example, I've used it to knocking out before and the explanation were pretty simple:
A person subjectet to a sudden large amount of pain (as from burning) usually pass out as a body reaction (thats also true that people dying from burning have their neuronal system shut dawn before it really dies).
So what I do to make it plausable its to role as the aplication of damage on that hit were just enought to make the foe pass out for the pain. I think a DM can ask for a arcana check if it wants since that bearing on passing out or being fatally injuried from the fire can be thin, but I don't think that is too much of a bother seeing a spellcaster can have control on its magic power.
The same works for Shocking Grasp: A high voltage discharge could blow a heart from inside, but as the caster have control over its magic power is plausible that it can apply a voltage just enough to faint that foe as a taser gun do.
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Hey all! Is there an official rule on whether one could for example, set Eldrich Blast to "stun" so to speak, in order to inflict non-lethal damage and knock a creature out? Similar to how one can do this for a melee attack?
Thanks! :)
It is restricted to melee attacks, which can be either weapons or spells. This would exclude Eldritch Blast though as it is a ranged spell attack.
Thank you! :)
I think thats not much of a botter in this matter.
The rules are just tools to make the game work properlly, but we may remember that the narrative are always the most important thing in a roleplay. So, even if knocking out is "restrict" to meele (as mention before, not that I found the rule on that) it's totally up for the DM.
But even within the rules lets take a look:
HP for PCs, NPCs and monsters are just a way to measure the amount of time they can get "up" in a damaging situation, and go 0 HP doesnt represent exactly dying (thats why death saves exist). Let's remember that the sources mention:
"Most DMs have a monster die the instant it drops to 0 hit points, rather than having it fall unconscious and make death saving throws. Mighty villains and special nonplayer characters are common exceptions; the DM might have them fall unconscious and follow the same rules as player characters."
So thats not a core rule but a preference for making the game flow better with minions or non-important monsters.
Thinking on that, any time a foe reach 0 HP and the party wants it to fall unsconsious instead of die instantly, I would say the players have a fair point to do it so, no matter what kind of damage it takes (unless it takes negative max HP). The DM can roll death saves for that foe and the players have that amount of rounds to try to stabilize it before it dies.
However, its totally up for the DM and I think it must be a thing only when it have a narrative matter, so the game flow does not break with useless interactions.
This is one of the very, very few things that are limited to melee attacks. There are a ton of spells that incapacitate enemies without killing them, but they are separate from the boom-boom-shooty spells.
Thats true. The "knocking a creature out" are limited to melee attacks (weapon or spells).
However, knocking out stands to incapacitate instead of killing (as to take that foe right to unconsciousness), but still the DM can always put that foe to death saves instead of instant death whenever it wants after anytime it reach 0 HP, right?
Your eyebrows should go all the way up any time a DM refuses to allow NPCs to have death saves (unless the NPC takes so much damage they die outright, like a PC would). NPCs are only supposed to skip death saves when they don't carry any narrative significance - and by definition, any NPC the PCs care about has narrative significance. A DM has the ability to skip death saves on all NPCs forever, but only a bad DM will do so across the board.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/combat#KnockingaCreatureOut
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Sure, I find it right after that comment of mine, but thanks anyway.
You can always discuss with the DM if you want to make a non-lethal version of the spell. If I may shamelessly plug my homebrew cantrip as an example: Silver Fire Bolt
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
I'm sort of of two minds about this. I mean, I agree that NPCs who matter should get the same chance to survive a brush with death as the PCs, for a number of reasons. But it still kind of bugs me that for a ranger bounty hunter looking to bring their quarry in alive for a higher payout the best option might be to stay out of easy detection range, shoot lethal arrows until the target looks like pincushion, walk over, tie them up, and then heal the poor sod. I'm definitely ok with a DM for such a scenario deciding that nah, dude be dead the moment he hit the dirt. The death save mechanic exists, I believe anyway, to make the game less gritty - not to turn being-a-murderhobo-but-not-really into some sort of easy mode exploit.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Presumably the idea is that you can control a melee strike better, or do something like hit with the flat of a sword blade. This rationale brings up the headscratcher of how you hit with the flat side of a giant hammer in a way that's less lethal than...the other flat side of the same giant hammer. Or how you deal full damage with a piercing weapon in a way that doesn't leave the target bleeding out. Additionally, the way movies/television/comics/etc portray a "harmless" bonk to the back of the head to "safely" incapacitate someone is rather unrealistic and would frequently run the risk of causing a concussion, fractured skull, or a number of other serious and possibly fatal injuries when done with enough force to knock the subject unconscious.
This all quickly gets into the realm of pedantic and pointless overanalysis that almost always results from attempting to apply real world science to a game of make believe with abstracted rules intended for smooth play more than actual "realism" in a world that has goblins shooting lightning from their fingertips. So my suggestion is ask your DM what their rules for this sort of thing are and just go with that.
Purely RAW, melee attacks can be nonlethal, as decided by the attacking character when the target is reduced to zero hp. Also strictly RAW, a melee spell attack is different from a melee attack (mechanically they use different ability score bonuses for the rolls), so shocking hands is not usable as a nonlethal taser substitute. There is no stun setting on a fireball, and you can't drain "just enough" life force with an inflict wounds spell. Again, DM fiat always applies if they want to house rule it otherwise.
Another alternative to consider if you're trying to take a monster/NPC alive is to grant them the narrative importance to allow them death saves (again, DM fiat) at which point your lethal damage doesn't kill them outright (unless massive damage applies) and you can either hope they roll well enough to stabilize or help them out with medicine checks or spare the dying.
So to sum it up in the most common simple three word answer in D&D, ask your DM.
Yeah, thats exactly what I meant right back there. The original question in the forum is "in order to inflict non-lethal damage and knock a creature out? Similar to how one can do this for a melee attack?" So other than "knocking out right unconscious and stable" there's always the death saves (and of course there's no need to use it when it don't have a matter in the role).
Let's assum a renger are supose to take some foe for any reason alive, but the foe is too far for the ranger to get in melee and in a higher speed. There's no reason for stuck on "the knockin out rule melee limitation" and the PC can hope to take the foe dawn with the blow and rush to stabilize it before it lost to much blood.
I mean, its a role-playing game not a bunch-of-rules game and even within the rules the death save situation still appliable, its disposable just to make the game flow better when the chance of that foe keep alive have no porpouse in the narrative so it can just drop dead.
A melee attack covers both weapons and spells, so you can absolutely taser someone with shocking grasp. Using spells to incapacitate is confirmed in Sage Advice.
Okay, I stand corrected on that one.
You might have been trying to compare melee spell attack and melee weapon attack, both of which are melee attacks.
I get that a general rule is necessary to keep things manageable, but a spell like Flame Blade doing nonlethal fire damage stretches the imagination quite a bit.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I allow it but I insist on an arcana check if it is passed then the caster has controlled the magic enough to not kill.
I don't see a need of stretching imagination. Here how I deal with this:
It's true we usually see spellcasting as a "instant uncontrollable burst of deadlly energy" but I think the better way to deal with those things in DnD is that a spellcaster have enought control on its magic (if not, wild magic wouldn't be a thing) to moderate the damage dealing.
For Flame Blade for example, I've used it to knocking out before and the explanation were pretty simple:
A person subjectet to a sudden large amount of pain (as from burning) usually pass out as a body reaction (thats also true that people dying from burning have their neuronal system shut dawn before it really dies).
So what I do to make it plausable its to role as the aplication of damage on that hit were just enought to make the foe pass out for the pain. I think a DM can ask for a arcana check if it wants since that bearing on passing out or being fatally injuried from the fire can be thin, but I don't think that is too much of a bother seeing a spellcaster can have control on its magic power.
The same works for Shocking Grasp: A high voltage discharge could blow a heart from inside, but as the caster have control over its magic power is plausible that it can apply a voltage just enough to faint that foe as a taser gun do.