Or the critter could fail the first Polymorph save and arrive at the same point, with nobody complaining about it. Or the critter could, indeed, nail five different attempts to muck with its save against Polymorph, and man - what a table tale that would be.
I suppose that's the thing - I'm seeing a lot of people venting spleen about how Silvery Barbs is an automatic win switch that guarantees somebody will change the course of history forever when it's just...not that powerful? Excellent yes, but not so earthshaking as to merit the hooplah. Everyone's hollering that it's way too good for first level. So, okay - what level should it be? Legit curious - what level do folks think would be More Fair for Silvery Barbs, if first is too low a cost?
I disagree with Optimus, as at third level we get fireball.
Does that make sense? Pray, let me explain.
ON FIREBALLS AND SILVERED BARBS
Our discussion here is about the spell silvery barbs, a new spell from the book Strixhaven: a Curriculum of Chaos. It offers one lot of advantage and disadvantage. Going by the rules suggested in the Player's Handbook, advantage counts as a +5 bonus to passive checks (Player's Handbook Chapter 7) , so we will examine silvery barbs at it's most potent passive. This effectively means a +5 bonus to one check, and a -5 penalty to another. Only the penalty's check can be chosen by the caster.
Comparing this first against the spell bless, a cleric staple from the Player's Handbook, generally considered powerful but not broken. This spell grants on average a +2 bonus, on all ability checks and saving throws, for a minute (assuming concentration), on up to three creatures. Assuming this spell only lasts one single round of combat, and assuming each creature makes only one ability check or saving throw in this entire round, that's effectively a +6 bonus, spread across more creatures. And this is significantly downplaying the spell's effects, as this can last multiple turns, with a maximum bonus (assuming each creature targeted only makes one check or save per round) of a whopping +120 spread across a single minute. Now, this maximum is unrealistic, at best, but so too is the spell only lasting a single round of combat, as clerics won't be getting in melee range unless they have specific feats (Player's Handbook Chapter 6).
This effectively means that, while silvery barbs is the faster spell, bless outclasses it in almost every single other way. Even more specifically, when not using passive bonuses, silvery barbs can do nothing to aid your allies at all, while bless is always guaranteed to grant at least a +3 bonus over one round of combat. What's more, bless works outside of combat too, while silvery barbs cannot, meaning bless is more potent, more effective, more predictable, and more versatile than silvery barbs ever will be.
Turning to the second comparison, shield. This spell grants a +5 bonus to AC until the start of your next turn as a reaction. This means shield is roughly equivalent to our silvery barbs, both granting +5 bonuses when used in passive. Assuming that only one attack is made against the caster with shield, silvery barbs is by far the superior. However, a second attack makes both spells roughly equal in power level - no considerable difference. Again, this is using a gross passive version of silvery barbs, which provides a +5 bonus to a check - something that won't happen on a roll of 15 or higher, and more likely than not will not increase the initial roll at all. This just goes to show that silvery barbs and shield are not truly comparable as they both do widely different things.
Turning to the third, second to last comparison, fortune's favor. This spell stinks. Silvery barbs beats it, hands down.
Turning to our promised comparison, fireball. These two spells are nothing alike. One deals damage, and one provides a nerf and boon. How are they comparable?
Power, my dear Watson. According to the Dungeon Master's Guide(Dungeon Master's Guide Chapter 9), a spell of fireball's level should deal 6d6 damage. This means fireball deals 2d6 damage greater than it should. In fact, it's the equivalent, according to the table, of adding in an extra spell slot of 1st level. It's cast one spell, get one free! However, with silvery barbs's closest comparisons, shield and bless, our spell deals very little extra benefits at the best of times - by no means an extra spell slot's worth of value. Hence, silvery barbs is less ban-worthy than fireball and bless, widely considered among the best spells in Dungeons and Dragons.
Will you remove fireball? Or will you accept silvery barbs is not your overpowered, potent enemy you seem to insist it is? I will let you decide.
The same can be said about Bane. It is pound for pound better than barbs which can also be picked up with faye touched, and can be up cast. Negate one crit or negate half the attack rolls up to 3 creatures for 10 rounds. Also it is a charisma save.
It's not better than Barbs as it requires an initial check, your full action to cast, and has less of a bonus (d4 < DIS)
Also you don't have to use barbs unless they succeed.
Also Barbs isn't concentration so you can have all the great concentration spells up and use it.
Sorry it's really not a good comparison at all.
You also missed my reply when I agreed fireball punches too high and likely should be brought back down to their suggested damage for the level it is at. They have stated its over tuned for nostalgia sake and honestly I think its a bit much. If I had my druthers I would move it back to 6d6 and make it more in line with a 3rd level spell.
I would also do the same for barbs as I have said repeatedly that I do not think banning the spell is the way to go....just make it a 2nd level spell.
I have yet to hear a compelling argument why this would be an issue for the spells balance? Other than outright fixing 99% of the issues most people have with it.
I respectfully disagree all arcane damage spells need to be boosted, by a lot. Or half of the spells that need concentration need to lose that cost. One of the two. Coming from, 2nd and some 3.5 the damage loss coupled with the over abundance of concentration was a huge shock to me. As the game is now I don't even take damage spells only control and buff spells. Damage comes from cantrips at low level and then buffing my party or keeping enemy combatants neutralised. Nerfing damage spells even more would be ironic.
The value of AoE damage spells is directly proportionate to how often the DM for a game employs hordes of enemies. In a game where Weenie Rushes are commonplace, your spellcasters will give up a leg before they give up their Fireballs. In a game where the DM never uses anything but single large, punchy monsters? Fireball is a waste of time.
Single-target raw damage spells are a weird beast, because they're simultaneously the worst way to use a spell slot and a necessity from the game's design perspective. Spellcasters would be incomplete without the ability to hit single targets hard with damaging spells, but doing so generally requires the caster to expend a very limited resource on something the martials can do for free. As such the single-target poke needs to either be a cod-whalloping motherhumper of a single-target poke (a'la Disintegrate, which remains drastically overtuned but gets the idea across), or it needs to do something other than damage.
Scorching Ray is a good example of a single-target* poke that just doesn't really work much of the time. 6d6 for a second-level spell is a pretty good deal, and at level 3 when you get the spell it can bring da whuppin'. But 6d6 averages out to ~21 damage, which martials can get pretty dang close to with just two weapon swings if they have a decent modifier, and a martial can take two swings at a target as many times as there are six-second rounds in a day. The spellcaster can Scorching Ray three times before running out of juice, tops, unless you start getting into upcasting. Why should that caster trade a second-level slot for something a martial can do for free?
That said...boosting damage spells anymuch further than they're at right now would swing the other way and obsolete martials. Giving casters even greater burst damage potential means they just eliminate targets before the martial can get stuck in and swing and we end up right back at the old Linear Warriors/Quadratic Wizards issue from an exciting(?) new angle. Punchy AoE already eliminates the need for martials to deal with Weenie Blitzes - why watch the team's paladin smite twenty kobolds one by one when a single Fireball or Conjure Barrage handles the problem in one round?
It's honestly one of the reasons I really like spells like Silvery Barbs, honestly. Spells the caster can use fluidly in combat to help bolster its allies or hinder its enemies, without the stupid hassle of concentration. I know why concentration exists, I know it's necessary for the game, but holy shit can it make playing spellcasters feel like a chore sometimes. More neat nonconcentration reaction spells, more one-and-done cool combat spells that give casters neat ways to interplay with the party, could go a long way towards making spellcasters cooler to play and also making the team feel more cohesive overall.
Silvery Barbs is a good spell IMO...I love it as a 2nd level spell because it makes Save or Suck spells a lot more viable and likely to be used. It also makes it so if you don't have a bard you can still bolster teammates by spending a resource.
My only issue with the spell is it is overtuned for a 1st level spell.
Fireball is just over tuned for the level it offers....it is obvious they had ideas in mind for what specllcasters should be doing at that level and said "nah lets up that one" for sheer nostalgia.
I agree with Yurei that spells should NOT be damage boosted but rather give them options to aid allies in the moment without the need of concentration or having more spells be BA to allow for economy options.
Its why the new Vortex spell is amazing too as it gives you options to play around with in a dynamic and interesting way. Moving people around is pretty fun sometimes especially when the fast bad guy thinks he is out running the barbarian but the wizard boops the big mad guy right next to him.
I do agree with the point less spells need concentration but I fear what this would do to balance. I would think it would bolster casters too much and move the divide but I would be willing to see it play out first before judgement.
Silvery Barbs is a good spell IMO...I love it as a 2nd level spell because it makes Save or Suck spells a lot more viable and likely to be used. It also makes it so if you don't have a bard you can still bolster teammates by spending a resource.
My only issue with the spell is it is overtuned for a 1st level spell.
Fireball is just over tuned for the level it offers....it is obvious they had ideas in mind for what specllcasters should be doing at that level and said "nah lets up that one" for sheer nostalgia.
I agree with Yurei that spells should NOT be damage boosted but rather give them options to aid allies in the moment without the need of concentration or having more spells be BA to allow for economy options.
Its why the new Vortex spell is amazing too as it gives you options to play around with in a dynamic and interesting way. Moving people around is pretty fun sometimes especially when the fast bad guy thinks he is out running the barbarian but the wizard boops the big mad guy right next to him.
I do agree with the point less spells need concentration but I fear what this would do to balance. I would think it would bolster casters too much and move the divide but I would be willing to see it play out first before judgement.
I have been in on and watching this conversation since the beginning and the comments about fireball are starting to get to me. This edition is the weakest that spell has ever been. In all other iterations the spell scaled with caster level and topped out at 25d6 all for the cost of one 3rd level spell slot. In 5th the best you can hope to get is 14d6 and that costs you your 9th level spell slot. It is all about perspective... To me fireball got a nice punch to start but that was just to hide the over all nerf they gave magic in general for this iteration. So a poor comparison imo.
Silvery Barbs punches too far above its weight class. For its effects it reads as 2nd level spell. And I would not be surprised if it gets quietly errataed with the second print run of Strixhaven. (see my previous posts for why I think that).
I can't find the post, but someone earlier said that they thought that the levels for Silvery Barbs and Borrowed Knowledge got switched by accident and WotC is just trying to pretend like it was intentional to hide the mistake. I think this is likely true.
Edit: Enhance Ability is the same level and gives advantage on ability checks for an hour. That is way better than proficiency in a single skill for an hour.
I can't find the post, but someone earlier said that they thought that the levels for Silvery Barbs and Borrowed Knowledge got switched by accident and WotC is just trying to pretend like it was intentional to hide the mistake. I think this is likely true.
Edit: Enhance Ability is the same level and gives advantage on ability checks for an hour. That is way better than proficiency in a single skill for an hour.
I can't find the post, but someone earlier said that they thought that the levels for Silvery Barbs and Borrowed Knowledge got switched by accident and WotC is just trying to pretend like it was intentional to hide the mistake. I think this is likely true.
Edit: Enhance Ability is the same level and gives advantage on ability checks for an hour. That is way better than proficiency in a single skill for an hour.
Edit 2: Found it! Credit to Damian_Magecraft
To be honest I wouldn't mind seeing it go to 2nd lvl as long as nothing else changes about it, no other nerfs. In the long run it wouldn't change much. Just that starting arcane casters wouldn't have acces to it.
Silvery Barbs is a good spell IMO...I love it as a 2nd level spell because it makes Save or Suck spells a lot more viable and likely to be used.
The main problem with save or suck spells in 5e is that the category of monsters that are vulnerable to save or suck spells (i.e. not legendary, not with a giant list of immunities) and also worth the action cost of targeting (generally lower in number than the party, unless you can hit multiple with one spell) is fairly small.
Heh...ever has it been thus. Monsters worth controlling can't be controlled, and monsters that can be controlled are much easier/more efficiently dealt with by just blowing them up, instead. Necessities of game balance, sadly enough.
Heh...ever has it been thus. Monsters worth controlling can't be controlled, and monsters that can be controlled are much easier/more efficiently dealt with by just blowing them up, instead. Necessities of game balance, sadly enough.
Yeah. There's very few exceptions to this rule, and the ones that there are (High Level Necromancers and Nightwalkers) are very rare and situational. Game Balance is often needed to get rid of cool and fun ideas like mind controlling a high-powered enemy into attacking its minions.
This isn't just true for D&D. It's also true for other TTRPGs (Pathfinder, because it's basically D&D), video games (like the Elder Scrolls and its Fury spells), and many pieces of literature (Mistborn comes to mind).
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
There are methods of balancing debuffs against varying grades of enemies short of making them completely ineffective, but they're hard to do at the low resolution of 5e, because they would involve partial effects or durations of less than a single round.
So everyone here is trying to "fix" something that they never played with nor tested? Because I am certain the multimillion dollar company has already.
I despise white room theory crafting. Like do you people play spell casters? Or are you just wargaming DMS that are afraid that this will somehow ruin *your* fun? The people that I have talked to that have played it say they don't particularly care for the spell:
1) It eats up a spell choice, something that is very limited. 2) It eats up a spell slot. 3) It didn't work all the time.
One person was a Druid that got it with Fey Touched and regretted getting it because they were eating up spell slots with a 50% success rate of it doing what it needed to do.
As someone who regularly mains a caster this would be great early as a weak counter spell... but as Shield is functionally better at lower levels, I am not going to double up on reactions... if I DID take it, I would replace it with counter spell. Late game, thanks to multi-attack, and the legendary resistances, there isn't much value for this spell. It isn't going to see as much play as people think and with definitely will not be spammed. It will be great seeing it go off in a clutch moment, but it isn't going to break a game. Counter spell, Counter charm, cutting words, uncanny dodge/evasion don't. This spell wont.
So everyone here is trying to "fix" something that they never played with nor tested? Because I am certain the multimillion dollar company has already.
To be fair, that same multi-million dollar company released the twilight and peace domain for Clerics.
So everyone here is trying to "fix" something that they never played with nor tested? Because I am certain the multimillion dollar company has already.
I despise white room theory crafting. Like do you people play spell casters? Or are you just wargaming DMS that are afraid that this will somehow ruin *your* fun? The people that I have talked to that have played it say they don't particularly care for the spell:
1) It eats up a spell choice, something that is very limited. 2) It eats up a spell slot. 3) It didn't work all the time.
One person was a Druid that got it with Fey Touched and regretted getting it because they were eating up spell slots with a 50% success rate of it doing what it needed to do.
As someone who regularly mains a caster this would be great early as a weak counter spell... but as Shield is functionally better at lower levels, I am not going to double up on reactions... if I DID take it, I would replace it with counter spell. Late game, thanks to multi-attack, and the legendary resistances, there isn't much value for this spell. It isn't going to see as much play as people think and with definitely will not be spammed. It will be great seeing it go off in a clutch moment, but it isn't going to break a game. Counter spell, Counter charm, cutting words, uncanny dodge/evasion don't. This spell wont.
There is massive value later on.
You essentially get to re-cast a high level save spell with a reaction and a 1st level spell slot.
That is massive.
And most people want it to be a 2nd level spell which just fixes the spell and does nothing negative to it's balance.
So everyone here is trying to "fix" something that they never played with nor tested? Because I am certain the multimillion dollar company has already.
There's plenty of stuff in 5e that's incoherent or broken, so I would not assume anything of the sort.
So everyone here is trying to "fix" something that they never played with nor tested? Because I am certain the multimillion dollar company has already.
I despise white room theory crafting. Like do you people play spell casters? Or are you just wargaming DMS that are afraid that this will somehow ruin *your* fun? The people that I have talked to that have played it say they don't particularly care for the spell:
1) It eats up a spell choice, something that is very limited. 2) It eats up a spell slot. 3) It didn't work all the time.
One person was a Druid that got it with Fey Touched and regretted getting it because they were eating up spell slots with a 50% success rate of it doing what it needed to do.
As someone who regularly mains a caster this would be great early as a weak counter spell... but as Shield is functionally better at lower levels, I am not going to double up on reactions... if I DID take it, I would replace it with counter spell. Late game, thanks to multi-attack, and the legendary resistances, there isn't much value for this spell. It isn't going to see as much play as people think and with definitely will not be spammed. It will be great seeing it go off in a clutch moment, but it isn't going to break a game. Counter spell, Counter charm, cutting words, uncanny dodge/evasion don't. This spell wont.
50% success rate would be generous in the two games I am in, though one of the players does have the absolute worst luck and maybe bringing the average way down. His luck is bad enough that he used Barbs this past week to defend against a crit only to have the DM re-roll and get another natural 20. The DM does open rolling so no cheating on their part. I feel bad for him.
So everyone here is trying to "fix" something that they never played with nor tested? Because I am certain the multimillion dollar company has already.
I despise white room theory crafting. Like do you people play spell casters? Or are you just wargaming DMS that are afraid that this will somehow ruin *your* fun? The people that I have talked to that have played it say they don't particularly care for the spell:
1) It eats up a spell choice, something that is very limited. 2) It eats up a spell slot. 3) It didn't work all the time.
One person was a Druid that got it with Fey Touched and regretted getting it because they were eating up spell slots with a 50% success rate of it doing what it needed to do.
As someone who regularly mains a caster this would be great early as a weak counter spell... but as Shield is functionally better at lower levels, I am not going to double up on reactions... if I DID take it, I would replace it with counter spell. Late game, thanks to multi-attack, and the legendary resistances, there isn't much value for this spell. It isn't going to see as much play as people think and with definitely will not be spammed. It will be great seeing it go off in a clutch moment, but it isn't going to break a game. Counter spell, Counter charm, cutting words, uncanny dodge/evasion don't. This spell wont.
50% success rate would be generous in the two games I am in, though one of the players does have the absolute worse luck and maybe bringing the average way down. His luck is bad enough that he used Barbs this past week to defend against a crit only to have the DM re-roll and get another natural 20. The DM does open rolling so no cheating on their part. I feel bad for him.
If you're using it against attacks against you I'd say your not even using the spell to is full potential.
If you have disadvantage on any you have only a 9% chance of rolling a 15 or higher ... So you use it on enemies who are saving against a spell.
Plus you get to use the ability only if they succeed so can wait to see if they use legendary resistance and not use it then.
Overall the points here are not really understanding the spell or how it really works in the players favor...
If you combo it with stuff like Highten Metamagic you make it so the creature has a very very small chance of saving.
And that's before you even give ADV to someone else....
It's definitely too much for a 1st level spell but perfect for 2nd level.
So everyone here is trying to "fix" something that they never played with nor tested? Because I am certain the multimillion dollar company has already.
I despise white room theory crafting. Like do you people play spell casters? Or are you just wargaming DMS that are afraid that this will somehow ruin *your* fun? The people that I have talked to that have played it say they don't particularly care for the spell:
1) It eats up a spell choice, something that is very limited. 2) It eats up a spell slot. 3) It didn't work all the time.
One person was a Druid that got it with Fey Touched and regretted getting it because they were eating up spell slots with a 50% success rate of it doing what it needed to do.
As someone who regularly mains a caster this would be great early as a weak counter spell... but as Shield is functionally better at lower levels, I am not going to double up on reactions... if I DID take it, I would replace it with counter spell. Late game, thanks to multi-attack, and the legendary resistances, there isn't much value for this spell. It isn't going to see as much play as people think and with definitely will not be spammed. It will be great seeing it go off in a clutch moment, but it isn't going to break a game. Counter spell, Counter charm, cutting words, uncanny dodge/evasion don't. This spell wont.
50% success rate would be generous in the two games I am in, though one of the players does have the absolute worse luck and maybe bringing the average way down. His luck is bad enough that he used Barbs this past week to defend against a crit only to have the DM re-roll and get another natural 20. The DM does open rolling so no cheating on their part. I feel bad for him.
If you're using it against attacks against you I'd say your not even using the spell to is full potential.
If you have disadvantage on any you have only a 9% chance of rolling a 15 or higher ... So you use it on enemies who are saving against a spell.
Plus you get to use the ability only if they succeed so can wait to see if they use legendary resistance and not use it then.
Overall the points here are not really understanding the spell or how it really works in the players favor...
If you combo it with stuff like Highten Metamagic you make it so the creature has a very very small chance of saving.
And that's before you even give ADV to someone else....
It's definitely too much for a 1st level spell but perfect for 2nd level.
Well, the caster in question is a Wizard and doesn't have meta magic. The attack in question could not be blocked by Shield (since it doesn't affect crits.) And most importantly, it has never once caused a saving throw to fail for him. The spell has only worked for him once and that was when he negated a crit against an ally. He has only used it about 6 or 7 times at this point, but the average success rate for him is very very poor.
In the game I run, it is another wizard and he has only used it 5 times and has negated 1 crit and 1 save. So still less than 50%. I am certain that we are "playing wrong" though.
So everyone here is trying to "fix" something that they never played with nor tested? Because I am certain the multimillion dollar company has already.
I despise white room theory crafting. Like do you people play spell casters? Or are you just wargaming DMS that are afraid that this will somehow ruin *your* fun? The people that I have talked to that have played it say they don't particularly care for the spell:
1) It eats up a spell choice, something that is very limited. 2) It eats up a spell slot. 3) It didn't work all the time.
One person was a Druid that got it with Fey Touched and regretted getting it because they were eating up spell slots with a 50% success rate of it doing what it needed to do.
As someone who regularly mains a caster this would be great early as a weak counter spell... but as Shield is functionally better at lower levels, I am not going to double up on reactions... if I DID take it, I would replace it with counter spell. Late game, thanks to multi-attack, and the legendary resistances, there isn't much value for this spell. It isn't going to see as much play as people think and with definitely will not be spammed. It will be great seeing it go off in a clutch moment, but it isn't going to break a game. Counter spell, Counter charm, cutting words, uncanny dodge/evasion don't. This spell wont.
50% success rate would be generous in the two games I am in, though one of the players does have the absolute worse luck and maybe bringing the average way down. His luck is bad enough that he used Barbs this past week to defend against a crit only to have the DM re-roll and get another natural 20. The DM does open rolling so no cheating on their part. I feel bad for him.
If you're using it against attacks against you I'd say your not even using the spell to is full potential.
If you have disadvantage on any you have only a 9% chance of rolling a 15 or higher ... So you use it on enemies who are saving against a spell.
Plus you get to use the ability only if they succeed so can wait to see if they use legendary resistance and not use it then.
Overall the points here are not really understanding the spell or how it really works in the players favor...
If you combo it with stuff like Highten Metamagic you make it so the creature has a very very small chance of saving.
And that's before you even give ADV to someone else....
It's definitely too much for a 1st level spell but perfect for 2nd level.
Well, the caster in question is a Wizard and doesn't have meta magic. The attack in question could not be blocked by Shield (since it doesn't affect crits.) And most importantly, it has never once caused a saving throw to fail for him. The spell has only worked for him once and that was when he negated a crit against an ally. He has only used it about 6 or 7 times at this point, but the average success rate for him is very very poor.
In the game I run, it is another wizard and he has only used it 5 times and has negated 1 crit and 1 save. So still less than 50%. I am certain that we are "playing wrong" though.
Ah fair points then.
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I respectfully disagree all arcane damage spells need to be boosted, by a lot. Or half of the spells that need concentration need to lose that cost. One of the two. Coming from, 2nd and some 3.5 the damage loss coupled with the over abundance of concentration was a huge shock to me. As the game is now I don't even take damage spells only control and buff spells. Damage comes from cantrips at low level and then buffing my party or keeping enemy combatants neutralised. Nerfing damage spells even more would be ironic.
The value of AoE damage spells is directly proportionate to how often the DM for a game employs hordes of enemies. In a game where Weenie Rushes are commonplace, your spellcasters will give up a leg before they give up their Fireballs. In a game where the DM never uses anything but single large, punchy monsters? Fireball is a waste of time.
Single-target raw damage spells are a weird beast, because they're simultaneously the worst way to use a spell slot and a necessity from the game's design perspective. Spellcasters would be incomplete without the ability to hit single targets hard with damaging spells, but doing so generally requires the caster to expend a very limited resource on something the martials can do for free. As such the single-target poke needs to either be a cod-whalloping motherhumper of a single-target poke (a'la Disintegrate, which remains drastically overtuned but gets the idea across), or it needs to do something other than damage.
Scorching Ray is a good example of a single-target* poke that just doesn't really work much of the time. 6d6 for a second-level spell is a pretty good deal, and at level 3 when you get the spell it can bring da whuppin'. But 6d6 averages out to ~21 damage, which martials can get pretty dang close to with just two weapon swings if they have a decent modifier, and a martial can take two swings at a target as many times as there are six-second rounds in a day. The spellcaster can Scorching Ray three times before running out of juice, tops, unless you start getting into upcasting. Why should that caster trade a second-level slot for something a martial can do for free?
That said...boosting damage spells anymuch further than they're at right now would swing the other way and obsolete martials. Giving casters even greater burst damage potential means they just eliminate targets before the martial can get stuck in and swing and we end up right back at the old Linear Warriors/Quadratic Wizards issue from an exciting(?) new angle. Punchy AoE already eliminates the need for martials to deal with Weenie Blitzes - why watch the team's paladin smite twenty kobolds one by one when a single Fireball or Conjure Barrage handles the problem in one round?
It's honestly one of the reasons I really like spells like Silvery Barbs, honestly. Spells the caster can use fluidly in combat to help bolster its allies or hinder its enemies, without the stupid hassle of concentration. I know why concentration exists, I know it's necessary for the game, but holy shit can it make playing spellcasters feel like a chore sometimes. More neat nonconcentration reaction spells, more one-and-done cool combat spells that give casters neat ways to interplay with the party, could go a long way towards making spellcasters cooler to play and also making the team feel more cohesive overall.
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Silvery Barbs is a good spell IMO...I love it as a 2nd level spell because it makes Save or Suck spells a lot more viable and likely to be used. It also makes it so if you don't have a bard you can still bolster teammates by spending a resource.
My only issue with the spell is it is overtuned for a 1st level spell.
Fireball is just over tuned for the level it offers....it is obvious they had ideas in mind for what specllcasters should be doing at that level and said "nah lets up that one" for sheer nostalgia.
I agree with Yurei that spells should NOT be damage boosted but rather give them options to aid allies in the moment without the need of concentration or having more spells be BA to allow for economy options.
Its why the new Vortex spell is amazing too as it gives you options to play around with in a dynamic and interesting way. Moving people around is pretty fun sometimes especially when the fast bad guy thinks he is out running the barbarian but the wizard boops the big mad guy right next to him.
I do agree with the point less spells need concentration but I fear what this would do to balance. I would think it would bolster casters too much and move the divide but I would be willing to see it play out first before judgement.
I have been in on and watching this conversation since the beginning and the comments about fireball are starting to get to me. This edition is the weakest that spell has ever been. In all other iterations the spell scaled with caster level and topped out at 25d6 all for the cost of one 3rd level spell slot. In 5th the best you can hope to get is 14d6 and that costs you your 9th level spell slot. It is all about perspective... To me fireball got a nice punch to start but that was just to hide the over all nerf they gave magic in general for this iteration. So a poor comparison imo.
Silvery Barbs punches too far above its weight class. For its effects it reads as 2nd level spell. And I would not be surprised if it gets quietly errataed with the second print run of Strixhaven. (see my previous posts for why I think that).
I can't find the post, but someone earlier said that they thought that the levels for Silvery Barbs and Borrowed Knowledge got switched by accident and WotC is just trying to pretend like it was intentional to hide the mistake. I think this is likely true.
Edit: Enhance Ability is the same level and gives advantage on ability checks for an hour. That is way better than proficiency in a single skill for an hour.
Edit 2: Found it! Credit to Damian_Magecraft
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
That was me. It's on page 21 about 3 posts down.
To be honest I wouldn't mind seeing it go to 2nd lvl as long as nothing else changes about it, no other nerfs. In the long run it wouldn't change much. Just that starting arcane casters wouldn't have acces to it.
The main problem with save or suck spells in 5e is that the category of monsters that are vulnerable to save or suck spells (i.e. not legendary, not with a giant list of immunities) and also worth the action cost of targeting (generally lower in number than the party, unless you can hit multiple with one spell) is fairly small.
Heh...ever has it been thus. Monsters worth controlling can't be controlled, and monsters that can be controlled are much easier/more efficiently dealt with by just blowing them up, instead. Necessities of game balance, sadly enough.
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I was thinking more of spells like:
Hold Person (Auto Crit for paladin/rogue is pretty good)
Banishment (Hold button for one creature)
Vortex Warp (How about you move a bit closer to the barb there flying thing?)
Heck even Web with Restrained being a pretty powerful condition to impose as it ensures even the ranged allies get ADV
Ensuring any of these work is worth the slot IMO
Yeah. There's very few exceptions to this rule, and the ones that there are (High Level Necromancers and Nightwalkers) are very rare and situational. Game Balance is often needed to get rid of cool and fun ideas like mind controlling a high-powered enemy into attacking its minions.
This isn't just true for D&D. It's also true for other TTRPGs (Pathfinder, because it's basically D&D), video games (like the Elder Scrolls and its Fury spells), and many pieces of literature (Mistborn comes to mind).
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Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
There are methods of balancing debuffs against varying grades of enemies short of making them completely ineffective, but they're hard to do at the low resolution of 5e, because they would involve partial effects or durations of less than a single round.
So everyone here is trying to "fix" something that they never played with nor tested? Because I am certain the multimillion dollar company has already.
I despise white room theory crafting. Like do you people play spell casters? Or are you just wargaming DMS that are afraid that this will somehow ruin *your* fun? The people that I have talked to that have played it say they don't particularly care for the spell:
1) It eats up a spell choice, something that is very limited.
2) It eats up a spell slot.
3) It didn't work all the time.
One person was a Druid that got it with Fey Touched and regretted getting it because they were eating up spell slots with a 50% success rate of it doing what it needed to do.
As someone who regularly mains a caster this would be great early as a weak counter spell... but as Shield is functionally better at lower levels, I am not going to double up on reactions... if I DID take it, I would replace it with counter spell. Late game, thanks to multi-attack, and the legendary resistances, there isn't much value for this spell. It isn't going to see as much play as people think and with definitely will not be spammed. It will be great seeing it go off in a clutch moment, but it isn't going to break a game. Counter spell, Counter charm, cutting words, uncanny dodge/evasion don't. This spell wont.
To be fair, that same multi-million dollar company released the twilight and peace domain for Clerics.
There is massive value later on.
You essentially get to re-cast a high level save spell with a reaction and a 1st level spell slot.
That is massive.
And most people want it to be a 2nd level spell which just fixes the spell and does nothing negative to it's balance.
There's plenty of stuff in 5e that's incoherent or broken, so I would not assume anything of the sort.
50% success rate would be generous in the two games I am in, though one of the players does have the absolute worst luck and maybe bringing the average way down. His luck is bad enough that he used Barbs this past week to defend against a crit only to have the DM re-roll and get another natural 20. The DM does open rolling so no cheating on their part. I feel bad for him.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
If you're using it against attacks against you I'd say your not even using the spell to is full potential.
If you have disadvantage on any you have only a 9% chance of rolling a 15 or higher ... So you use it on enemies who are saving against a spell.
Plus you get to use the ability only if they succeed so can wait to see if they use legendary resistance and not use it then.
Overall the points here are not really understanding the spell or how it really works in the players favor...
If you combo it with stuff like Highten Metamagic you make it so the creature has a very very small chance of saving.
And that's before you even give ADV to someone else....
It's definitely too much for a 1st level spell but perfect for 2nd level.
Well, the caster in question is a Wizard and doesn't have meta magic. The attack in question could not be blocked by Shield (since it doesn't affect crits.) And most importantly, it has never once caused a saving throw to fail for him. The spell has only worked for him once and that was when he negated a crit against an ally. He has only used it about 6 or 7 times at this point, but the average success rate for him is very very poor.
In the game I run, it is another wizard and he has only used it 5 times and has negated 1 crit and 1 save. So still less than 50%. I am certain that we are "playing wrong" though.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Ah fair points then.