Comboing these 2 because they lead into the general.. feel of the plan to me. So the plan is.. to have a few normal sessions. Tell everyone someone is a traitor.. than when they discover it's you, your character will try to run and if successful will become a boss later.
So, there will really be no reveal or "ooooh" moment as they untangle the web because they know there's a traitor and the outcome of it all is just going to be a boss fight later on?
They're not trying to untangle that there IS a traitor; they're trying to untangle WHO it is. It's kinda like more traditional social deduction games: you know SOMEONE is trying to sabotage everyone else, but not WHO they are. The challenge is finding them.
Perhaps there's some big motivation your character has that will maybe add something BIG to this but it sorta sounds like your motivation is simply "to survive"
That's because it is. What's wrong with that? No, seriously, I don't see any problem with making my character's goal a simple challenge of survival.
The major problem with his only goal being to survive is that there's no... sympathy that can come from it? The party doesn't really have an out to do anything other than just.. kill the character?
If Say a family member was dying and the only person capable of saving them from whatever it was killing them was the BBEG and thus your character was forced to pick family or the party.. that's some kinda sympatheticness to the situation? Or if you believed that the superpowers granted where an issue like the BBEG evidently does and that's why you where working with them because you felt the same situation, a kinda.. "we're destroying the world dont you see!?" kinda vibe to it. Or what if his epithet had somehow lead to killing someone or his home town or SOMETHING to make him feel that people with the power are dangerous like he is so he's working alongside the BBEG?
I dunno.. just "I dont want to die" is really bland in my eyes, it doesn't make for a compelling villain. kinda like the house of the dead movie "you became immortal why??" "So I could live forever" Ah.. ok.. yep. Like I guess its realistic, because nobody really wants to be killed but as story telling mechanism it's again leading into the whole "Why are you telling this story?" with the traitor aspect if there's really no story behind it?
Or for instance the guy that wants to take over to rule and his only motivation being.. he wants to be in charge.. Dunno that's just so 1 dimensional that it hurts.. there's literally no other reason that drove them to try and take over??
The major problem with his only goal being to survive is that there's no... sympathy that can come from it? The party doesn't really have an out to do anything other than just.. kill the character?
If Say a family member was dying and the only person capable of saving them from whatever it was killing them was the BBEG and thus your character was forced to pick family or the party.. that's some kinda sympatheticness to the situation? Or if you believed that the superpowers granted where an issue like the BBEG evidently does and that's why you where working with them because you felt the same situation, a kinda.. "we're destroying the world dont you see!?" kinda vibe to it. Or what if his epithet had somehow lead to killing someone or his home town or SOMETHING to make him feel that people with the power are dangerous like he is so he's working alongside the BBEG?
I dunno.. just "I dont want to die" is really bland in my eyes, it doesn't make for a compelling villain. kinda like the house of the dead movie "you became immortal why??" "So I could live forever" Ah.. ok.. yep. Like I guess its realistic, because nobody really wants to be killed but as story telling mechanism it's again leading into the whole "Why are you telling this story?" with the traitor aspect if there's really no story behind it?
Or for instance the guy that wants to take over to rule and his only motivation being.. he wants to be in charge.. Dunno that's just so 1 dimensional that it hurts.. there's literally no other reason that drove them to try and take over??
The difference between what you're mentioning and my character's circumstances is that EVERYONE (or at least a vast majority of people) understand wanting to survive, even if they don't have an interest in immortality or power. It's a fundamental base instinct.
Of course, that may not be enough, so I'm trying to aim for a more emotional tone about my character not WANTING to betray the party at all, but being FORCED to do so by his past choices in life. He'll stick a knife in your back, twist it even, but he'll be crying the whole time he does it.
That said, I'm still not super great at roleplaying or making sympathetic characters, so if you have any good ideas, let me know!
Get the permission of everyone at the table beforehand.
In other words, get the players to conspire against their characters.
Got it. Do I have to blow my character's cover to the players, or is it still possible to keep that a secret?
The way I would broach it is to ask the DM to bring it up with the table by asking "how would everyone feel if one of you was a traitor?" without naming who it might be. If the table agrees, go for it! If not, maybe you could approach it differently, like maybe the character has a connection to the Big Bad and their organization in a way that still allows them to align with the party.
(This will require some acting on your and the DM's part in order to not out you, but hey, we're playing D&D here!)
…make my character a traitor. How can we make this fun for EVERYBODY at the table, and not just the two of us?
Get the permission of everyone at the table beforehand.
In other words, get the players to conspire against their characters.
I can kind of see this. Have the GM let the group know that somebody in the party is some sort of traitor. How they go about it is up to them but let all of the players know something is up.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
…make my character a traitor. How can we make this fun for EVERYBODY at the table, and not just the two of us?
Get the permission of everyone at the table beforehand.
In other words, get the players to conspire against their characters.
I can kind of see this. Have the GM let the group know that somebody in the party is some sort of traitor. How they go about it is up to them but let all of the players know something is up.
Isn’t it amazing how many experienced players and DM’s keep giving this same advice?
Get the permission of everyone at the table beforehand.
In other words, get the players to conspire against their characters.
Got it. Do I have to blow my character's cover to the players, or is it still possible to keep that a secret?
Ideally, you would have covered this during session zero. Since I'm guessing you didn't have a session zero, suggest to the DM to have one now.
This goes beyond the scope of session zero, for some players it's in the territory of things they never even considered as a possibility.
Honest discussion with the group even if it was thought to be addressed in session zero is still a very smart idea if going down this road. I've seen groups implode over this exact thing, if everyone isn't on-board, best not to attempt it.
Find the traitor (maybe all the pc's are the traitor) can be fun, stabbed in the back by my friend - never fun.
I have one more piece of advice for you on this, BoomerTheStar -- ditch the idea that there's only One Good Way this can play out.
You seem fixated on this extraction scene as the payoff for the story, but really, that's out of your control. Your character might have had the extraction planned out with the BBEG, but as a player, you need to be open to the possibility that the rest of the party will do things that either ruin your plan, or make you want to change it.
Just off the top of my head:
What happens if they figure out you're a traitor, get the drop on you and knock you out or incapacitate you before you can signal for the extraction?
What happens if they do something that forces your character to re-consider what side they're on?
What happens if the BBEG renegs on their deal with you and decides to just kill you too along with the rest of the party once you've served your purpose, to tie up loose ends (just because you think you have something worked out with the DM doesn't mean the DM can't go in another direction, and do to you what you just did to the rest of the party...)?
Either come up with multiple endgame scenarios, so you can try to be prepared for anything, or just keep an open mind and take what comes. Insisting that there's only one way this can end just increases the chances the rest of the party feels railroaded and is just a spectator to your story
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
That said, I'm still not super great at roleplaying or making sympathetic characters, so if you have any good ideas, let me know!
I think the easiest way to make a sympathetic character is to have something important to you that was lost in some way. For example, I have a Tabaxi character that loves learning about different cultures (especially their food) and wants to travel the worlds to discover new things from a place of deep curiosity. However, he'd be willing to trade the lives of his party for those of his siblings that were captured as part of the Tabaxi fur trade.
Ideally, you would have covered this during session zero. Since I'm guessing you didn't have a session zero, suggest to the DM to have one now.
This goes beyond the scope of session zero, for some players it's in the territory of things they never even considered as a possibility.
Honest discussion with the group even if it was thought to be addressed in session zero is still a very smart idea if going down this road. I've seen groups implode over this exact thing, if everyone isn't on-board, best not to attempt it.
Find the traitor (maybe all the pc's are the traitor) can be fun, stabbed in the back by my friend - never fun.
PvP at the very least should definitely be covered in session zero. Once you've gotten that far in the discussion, you'll probably cover what forms of PvP are and are not acceptable. The only way it wouldn't be covered is if no one objected to any PvP but no one considered the possibility of someone betraying the party.
Ideally, you would have covered this during session zero. Since I'm guessing you didn't have a session zero, suggest to the DM to have one now.
This goes beyond the scope of session zero, for some players it's in the territory of things they never even considered as a possibility.
Honest discussion with the group even if it was thought to be addressed in session zero is still a very smart idea if going down this road. I've seen groups implode over this exact thing, if everyone isn't on-board, best not to attempt it.
Find the traitor (maybe all the pc's are the traitor) can be fun, stabbed in the back by my friend - never fun.
PvP at the very least should definitely be covered in session zero. Once you've gotten that far in the discussion, you'll probably cover what forms of PvP are and are not acceptable. The only way it wouldn't be covered is if no one objected to any PvP but no one considered the possibility of someone betraying the party.
Agree to disagree, I accept that's what you're seeing, - I've never seen it addressed as a possibility, unless it was stated as a goal - or part of the design of the game (such as Paranoia).
Are you attempting to say it doesn't deserve a revisit prior by the group turning that corner, to ensure everyone is cool with it? Bit confused by your statement.
Some games get into some pretty dark territory, but (in my experience) t's always a good idea to revisit that everyone is okay with those darker things prior to taking the turn, if it's not something the group as a whole has done many times before.
I'd error on the side of consideration, what was okay 3 months ago might not be this week - the people at the table are important enough to check in on.
I have one more piece of advice for you on this, BoomerTheStar -- ditch the idea that there's only One Good Way this can play out.
You seem fixated on this extraction scene as the payoff for the story, but really, that's out of your control. Your character might have had the extraction planned out with the BBEG, but as a player, you need to be open to the possibility that the rest of the party will do things that either ruin your plan, or make you want to change it.
Just off the top of my head:
What happens if they figure out you're a traitor, get the drop on you and knock you out or incapacitate you before you can signal for the extraction?
What happens if they do something that forces your character to re-consider what side they're on?
What happens if the BBEG renegs on their deal with you and decides to just kill you too along with the rest of the party once you've served your purpose, to tie up loose ends (just because you think you have something worked out with the DM doesn't mean the DM can't go in another direction, and do to you what you just did to the rest of the party...)?
Either come up with multiple endgame scenarios, so you can try to be prepared for anything, or just keep an open mind and take what comes. Insisting that there's only one way this can end just increases the chances the rest of the party feels railroaded and is just a spectator to your story
Good questions. Here's my answers:
He'd probably start begging for his life (if he wakes up), maybe come clean about the whole thing as well. If the party kills him outright before that happens, though... yeah, that's the one issue that might happen.
Then he'll switch sides. I'm TOTALLY on board with the idea of a traitor that sides with the people they were supposed to betray in the first place.
He'd fight back. What? You really think a trained assassin is just going to shrug off an assassination attempt against him?
If I can be honest, I'm less worried about the "one good way" this can turn out, and more concerned about the LOADS of bad ways this can turn out: dying on accident in a mundane combat, getting caught before the plot can get moving, the party refusing to RP the story with each other... THAT'S what I'm more worried about.
Well, there's only really one thing I can do for sure, and that is: whatever happens... roll with it. Thanks for the help!
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Got it. Do I have to blow my character's cover to the players, or is it still possible to keep that a secret?
The major problem with his only goal being to survive is that there's no... sympathy that can come from it? The party doesn't really have an out to do anything other than just.. kill the character?
If Say a family member was dying and the only person capable of saving them from whatever it was killing them was the BBEG and thus your character was forced to pick family or the party.. that's some kinda sympatheticness to the situation? Or if you believed that the superpowers granted where an issue like the BBEG evidently does and that's why you where working with them because you felt the same situation, a kinda.. "we're destroying the world dont you see!?" kinda vibe to it. Or what if his epithet had somehow lead to killing someone or his home town or SOMETHING to make him feel that people with the power are dangerous like he is so he's working alongside the BBEG?
I dunno.. just "I dont want to die" is really bland in my eyes, it doesn't make for a compelling villain. kinda like the house of the dead movie "you became immortal why??" "So I could live forever" Ah.. ok.. yep. Like I guess its realistic, because nobody really wants to be killed but as story telling mechanism it's again leading into the whole "Why are you telling this story?" with the traitor aspect if there's really no story behind it?
Or for instance the guy that wants to take over to rule and his only motivation being.. he wants to be in charge.. Dunno that's just so 1 dimensional that it hurts.. there's literally no other reason that drove them to try and take over??
The difference between what you're mentioning and my character's circumstances is that EVERYONE (or at least a vast majority of people) understand wanting to survive, even if they don't have an interest in immortality or power. It's a fundamental base instinct.
Of course, that may not be enough, so I'm trying to aim for a more emotional tone about my character not WANTING to betray the party at all, but being FORCED to do so by his past choices in life. He'll stick a knife in your back, twist it even, but he'll be crying the whole time he does it.
That said, I'm still not super great at roleplaying or making sympathetic characters, so if you have any good ideas, let me know!
The way I would broach it is to ask the DM to bring it up with the table by asking "how would everyone feel if one of you was a traitor?" without naming who it might be. If the table agrees, go for it! If not, maybe you could approach it differently, like maybe the character has a connection to the Big Bad and their organization in a way that still allows them to align with the party.
(This will require some acting on your and the DM's part in order to not out you, but hey, we're playing D&D here!)
Ideally, you would have covered this during session zero. Since I'm guessing you didn't have a session zero, suggest to the DM to have one now.
I can kind of see this. Have the GM let the group know that somebody in the party is some sort of traitor. How they go about it is up to them but let all of the players know something is up.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Isn’t it amazing how many experienced players and DM’s keep giving this same advice?
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This goes beyond the scope of session zero, for some players it's in the territory of things they never even considered as a possibility.
Honest discussion with the group even if it was thought to be addressed in session zero is still a very smart idea if going down this road. I've seen groups implode over this exact thing, if everyone isn't on-board, best not to attempt it.
Find the traitor (maybe all the pc's are the traitor) can be fun, stabbed in the back by my friend - never fun.
I have one more piece of advice for you on this, BoomerTheStar -- ditch the idea that there's only One Good Way this can play out.
You seem fixated on this extraction scene as the payoff for the story, but really, that's out of your control. Your character might have had the extraction planned out with the BBEG, but as a player, you need to be open to the possibility that the rest of the party will do things that either ruin your plan, or make you want to change it.
Just off the top of my head:
Either come up with multiple endgame scenarios, so you can try to be prepared for anything, or just keep an open mind and take what comes. Insisting that there's only one way this can end just increases the chances the rest of the party feels railroaded and is just a spectator to your story
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I think the easiest way to make a sympathetic character is to have something important to you that was lost in some way. For example, I have a Tabaxi character that loves learning about different cultures (especially their food) and wants to travel the worlds to discover new things from a place of deep curiosity. However, he'd be willing to trade the lives of his party for those of his siblings that were captured as part of the Tabaxi fur trade.
A good book and a cup of tea.
Homebrew| Bard: College of Composition
Feedback Appreciated!
PvP at the very least should definitely be covered in session zero. Once you've gotten that far in the discussion, you'll probably cover what forms of PvP are and are not acceptable. The only way it wouldn't be covered is if no one objected to any PvP but no one considered the possibility of someone betraying the party.
Agree to disagree, I accept that's what you're seeing, - I've never seen it addressed as a possibility, unless it was stated as a goal - or part of the design of the game (such as Paranoia).
Are you attempting to say it doesn't deserve a revisit prior by the group turning that corner, to ensure everyone is cool with it? Bit confused by your statement.
Some games get into some pretty dark territory, but (in my experience) t's always a good idea to revisit that everyone is okay with those darker things prior to taking the turn, if it's not something the group as a whole has done many times before.
I'd error on the side of consideration, what was okay 3 months ago might not be this week - the people at the table are important enough to check in on.
Good questions. Here's my answers:
If I can be honest, I'm less worried about the "one good way" this can turn out, and more concerned about the LOADS of bad ways this can turn out: dying on accident in a mundane combat, getting caught before the plot can get moving, the party refusing to RP the story with each other... THAT'S what I'm more worried about.
Well, there's only really one thing I can do for sure, and that is: whatever happens... roll with it. Thanks for the help!