Also, what about the people who buy books just because they are official (some people actually do this)? Their money is wasted now.
If this were the only reason they bought this book, their money was wasted to begin with.
explain.
Buying a book just put on a shelf and not use it is a waste of money.
That's like saying that buying a painting or other artwork is a waste of money.
Some people like the way books look on their shelf. *shrug*
So you are saying MMM is comparable to a work of art?
No, but a book collection is. Personally, I'd rather have a shelf of books than a painting.
I have scores, if not hundreds, of gaming books on my shelves from games I've never played, and probably never will. I enjoy them the same way a coin collector enjoys coins.
I collect Magic the Gathering cards, and don't actually play that much (mostly because of COViD).
But I still open packs and make decks because I enjoy it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explainHERE.
Also, what about the people who buy books just because they are official (some people actually do this)? Their money is wasted now.
Is it? If all you want out of purchasing a book is "to have a complete collection" then you accomplish your goal by purchasing it regardless of the quality of the content.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews!Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Also, what about the people who buy books just because they are official (some people actually do this)? Their money is wasted now.
Is it? If all you want out of purchasing a book is "to have a complete collection" then you accomplish your goal by purchasing it regardless of the quality of the content.
As I have explained in previous posts, that is not why I buy D&D books.
However, there are some people that buy books mainly so they can have the canon stuff on their shelves. In there eye's, it's worth the price.
I mentioned this group of customers, though, not because making Volo's and Mordenkainen's not canon must've been an annoyance to those "Canon collectors".
Mainly, collecting is a very minor factor when buying D&D books.
Full disclosure: I have not purchased Monster of the Multiverse and do not intend to.
My main concern is that WotC will start banning content from Volo's Guide to Monsters and Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes at official D&D gaming store events. Also, what's the likelihood of them making those books completely inaccessible to people on DDB in the future??
Full disclosure: I have not purchased Monster of the Multiverse and do not intend to.
My main concern is that WotC will start banning content from Volo's Guide to Monsters and Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes at official D&D gaming store events. Also, what's the likelihood of them making those books completely inaccessible to people on DDB in the future??
they already did ban them from Adventurer's League (which is the official DnD Gaming store events). You have to use 3M now.
And probably unlikely to strip it from everyone who already bought it, since we did pay money for that content.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Full disclosure: I have not purchased Monster of the Multiverse and do not intend to.
My main concern is that WotC will start banning content from Volo's Guide to Monsters and Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes at official D&D gaming store events. Also, what's the likelihood of them making those books completely inaccessible to people on DDB in the future??
they already did ban them from Adventurer's League (which is the official DnD Gaming store events). You have to use 3M now.
And probably unlikely to strip it from everyone who already bought it, since we did pay money for that content.
Full disclosure: I have not purchased Monster of the Multiverse and do not intend to.
My main concern is that WotC will start banning content from Volo's Guide to Monsters and Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes at official D&D gaming store events. Also, what's the likelihood of them making those books completely inaccessible to people on DDB in the future??
If they stripped access to Volo's and Tome of Foes from people that bought them on DDB, that'd be a lawsuit waiting to happen. One that they would most likely lose. It's probably why they didn't do that in the first place.
Full disclosure: I have not purchased Monster of the Multiverse and do not intend to.
My main concern is that WotC will start banning content from Volo's Guide to Monsters and Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes at official D&D gaming store events. Also, what's the likelihood of them making those books completely inaccessible to people on DDB in the future??
If they stripped access to Volo's and Tome of Foes from people that bought them on DDB, that'd be a lawsuit waiting to happen. One that they would most likely lose. It's probably why they didn't do that in the first place.
Since DDB only sells access to D&D content and doesn't sell the content itself, that lawsuit probably wouldn't do so well. The damage to DDB's reputation and subsequent drop in sales would be the real loss.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Full disclosure: I have not purchased Monster of the Multiverse and do not intend to.
My main concern is that WotC will start banning content from Volo's Guide to Monsters and Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes at official D&D gaming store events. Also, what's the likelihood of them making those books completely inaccessible to people on DDB in the future??
If they stripped access to Volo's and Tome of Foes from people that bought them on DDB, that'd be a lawsuit waiting to happen. One that they would most likely lose. It's probably why they didn't do that in the first place.
Since DDB only sells access to D&D content and doesn't sell the content itself, that lawsuit probably wouldn't do so well.
Would you please clarify this part? If WotC now owns DDB, why wouldn't a lawsuit be a good tactic?
Full disclosure: I have not purchased Monster of the Multiverse and do not intend to.
My main concern is that WotC will start banning content from Volo's Guide to Monsters and Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes at official D&D gaming store events. Also, what's the likelihood of them making those books completely inaccessible to people on DDB in the future??
If they stripped access to Volo's and Tome of Foes from people that bought them on DDB, that'd be a lawsuit waiting to happen. One that they would most likely lose. It's probably why they didn't do that in the first place.
While it would be a bad idea in regard to negative word of mouth and loss of sales, aside from all of their (admittedly not bulletproof) anti-lawsuit, anti-class action language in the TOS, there is also this: 23.2. To Wizards' Products and Services. Wizards' Websites, Organized Play, Games and Services will evolve. Wizards may update, patch, update, revise, change, suspend, "nerf," or restrict your access to the Websites, Organized Play, Games or Services, including components thereof (e.g., Virtual Items), for any reason and may push mandatory, automatic, or background patching or updates or require you to download and install updates to any software required to support the certain Websites, Games, or Services at any time without notice or liability to you. You acknowledge that your use of the Websites, Organized Play, Games or Services does not confer on you any interest, monetary or otherwise, in any aspect or feature, including but not limited to any rewards, prizes achievements, levels, Virtual Currency, or Virtual Items. You also acknowledge that any character or account data, Game progress, Game customization or other data related to your use of any of Wizards products or services may cease to be available to you at any time without notice from us, including without limitation after a patch, update, or upgrade is applied by Wizards. We do not have any maintenance or support obligations with respect to the Websites, Organized Play, Games or Services. You agree that updates may change the requirements necessary to use the Websites, Organized Play, Games or Services and agree that in such an event you are responsible for any necessary actions, including but not limited to software or hardware, to access and use the Websites, Organized Play, Games or Services. You are not entitled to any subsequent updates nor is Wizards obligated to provide you with updates.
Full disclosure: I have not purchased Monster of the Multiverse and do not intend to.
My main concern is that WotC will start banning content from Volo's Guide to Monsters and Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes at official D&D gaming store events. Also, what's the likelihood of them making those books completely inaccessible to people on DDB in the future??
If they stripped access to Volo's and Tome of Foes from people that bought them on DDB, that'd be a lawsuit waiting to happen. One that they would most likely lose. It's probably why they didn't do that in the first place.
Since DDB only sells access to D&D content and doesn't sell the content itself, that lawsuit probably wouldn't do so well.
Would you please clarify this part? If WotC now owns DDB, why wouldn't a lawsuit be a good tactic?
Even with WotC owning DDB, you're buying access not ownership, though that's a very blunt parsing of the legal technicality. Realistically, if a lawsuit went the class action route, there'd be some sort of settlement, though usually in those cases the plaintiffs claimed loss isn't made whole.
But that's all presuming WotC/DDB "did" follow through with something they clearly "could." I don't see that happening for at least as long as DDB supports 5e. And honestly with some stuff popping up like the unrevised monster stats that exist in EGtW, I wouldn't be surprised if there may be avenues for access to the "legacy" by new users, as well as the attendant lore, in some fashion in the foresseable future. Just speculation, but MMM has been a problematic call for the brand since the boxed set came out.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Thanks, BigHearted. I can still see a Breach of contract suit happening, though, if they pull content they sold to thousands of DDB users.
Ultimately, what this means is that people who want to preserve access to older content in the long run may need to rely on websites Not owned by WotC or get the hard bound version.
Thanks, BigHearted. I can still see a Breach of contract suit happening, though, if they pull content they sold to thousands of DDB users.
The contract only stipulates that you have access to content you paid for as long as it's hosted on DDB. If WotC decides to take it off DDB, it's considered their right as the owner of said content. People could and almost certainly would try to sue over it, but the way the laws are written it would most likely be found to have no merit.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
First, good game publishers never change existing material in major ways. The material in MotM warranted either 5.5e or 6e. They have now induced massive confusion between those who have the old materials, and those who did not have them. As usual, they dumped this on the DM's to make work out in the world. IMO this book is basically theft. They took existing material, changed it in major ways, destroyed the value of already existing materials we bought, bundled it together in a new book and published it to drive their "We have to sell X number of books a year" mantra. Yes it addressed a few particularly bad problems, particularly in the more non-standard races. But that's not worth $50.
As an aside, my book also had print ink and damaged print page issues. Why is it that whenever WOTC does a 1st print of a book, they have so much trouble with their QA?
I wish I could just turn this book back in and get my money back. I will not be buying any new 5e material from WOTC. I have more material than I can already use, and there are many wonderful 3rd party books that provide me with more of what I need. When they release 5.5e or 6e, I will re-evaluate.
First, good game publishers never change existing material in major ways. The material in MotM warranted either 5.5e or 6e. They have now induced massive confusion between those who have the old materials, and those who did not have them. As usual, they dumped this on the DM's to make work out in the world. IMO this book is basically theft. They took existing material, changed it in major ways, destroyed the value of already existing materials we bought, bundled it together in a new book and published it to drive their "We have to sell X number of books a year" mantra. Yes it addressed a few particularly bad problems, particularly in the more non-standard races. But that's not worth $50.
As an aside, my book also had print ink and damaged print page issues. Why is it that whenever WOTC does a 1st print of a book, they have so much trouble with their QA?
I wish I could just turn this book back in and get my money back. I will not be buying any new 5e material from WOTC. I have more material than I can already use, and there are many wonderful 3rd party books that provide me with more of what I need. When they release 5.5e or 6e, I will re-evaluate.
I agree with most of this.
For it to be theft however... that's debatable. Still, what they did with M3 was not at all fair to the customers of their game.
They reused almost all the content, and delisted books. I hope that is not done again.
As a related side note, the fact that they have ceased selling MToF and VGtM; and may well pull the existing versions off of DnD Beyond someday from previous purchasers illustrates a key constraint of electronic book. Also, of note: super lengthy contract forms often found with app purchases and online stores for virtual products can be used to circumvent conventional legal avenues of remedy. Both further enshrine power in the hands of the corporate-powers-that-be, in this case, WotC.
As a related side note, the fact that they have ceased selling MToF and VGtM; and may well pull the existing versions off of DnD Beyond someday from previous purchasers illustrates a key constraint of electronic book. Also, of note: super lengthy contract forms often found with app purchases and online stores for virtual products can be used to circumvent conventional legal avenues of remedy. Both further enshrine power in the hands of the corporate-powers-that-be, in this case, WotC.
People have been pointing out that issue with cloud-based services since before DDB was even a thing. It's weird how so many people here seem to have just now noticed.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
First, good game publishers never change existing material in major ways.
Define "Major". Define "good game publishers".
This isn't new to D&D 5e. Other TTRPGs and similar mediums of entertainment (Video Games, Board Games) get similar rule changes, too.
In a video game, if there's a bug, people generally expect the designers to fix it. The unbalanced nature of many of the races that got revised in this book is a "bug" that's being fixed by WotC through this book. Bug fixes that help balance the game are generally a good thing. Trying to make the game more balanced is not a bad thing.
The material in MotM warranted either 5.5e or 6e.
Good thing that one is coming in two years and this book was designed specifically to get people ready for the changes that will be happening to the Core Rulebooks in 2024.
I collect Magic the Gathering cards, and don't actually play that much (mostly because of COViD).
But I still open packs and make decks because I enjoy it.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.Is it? If all you want out of purchasing a book is "to have a complete collection" then you accomplish your goal by purchasing it regardless of the quality of the content.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
As I have explained in previous posts, that is not why I buy D&D books.
However, there are some people that buy books mainly so they can have the canon stuff on their shelves. In there eye's, it's worth the price.
I mentioned this group of customers, though, not because making Volo's and Mordenkainen's not canon must've been an annoyance to those "Canon collectors".
Mainly, collecting is a very minor factor when buying D&D books.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.Full disclosure: I have not purchased Monster of the Multiverse and do not intend to.
My main concern is that WotC will start banning content from Volo's Guide to Monsters and Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes at official D&D gaming store events. Also, what's the likelihood of them making those books completely inaccessible to people on DDB in the future??
they already did ban them from Adventurer's League (which is the official DnD Gaming store events). You have to use 3M now.
And probably unlikely to strip it from everyone who already bought it, since we did pay money for that content.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Can I ask what is 3M?
The new book, Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse
Ah, gotcha. I misunderstood the post, thinking it was an alternate to DMsGuild.
If they stripped access to Volo's and Tome of Foes from people that bought them on DDB, that'd be a lawsuit waiting to happen. One that they would most likely lose. It's probably why they didn't do that in the first place.
Since DDB only sells access to D&D content and doesn't sell the content itself, that lawsuit probably wouldn't do so well. The damage to DDB's reputation and subsequent drop in sales would be the real loss.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Would you please clarify this part? If WotC now owns DDB, why wouldn't a lawsuit be a good tactic?
While it would be a bad idea in regard to negative word of mouth and loss of sales, aside from all of their (admittedly not bulletproof) anti-lawsuit, anti-class action language in the TOS, there is also this:
23.2. To Wizards' Products and Services. Wizards' Websites, Organized Play, Games and Services will evolve. Wizards may update, patch, update, revise, change, suspend, "nerf," or restrict your access to the Websites, Organized Play, Games or Services, including components thereof (e.g., Virtual Items), for any reason and may push mandatory, automatic, or background patching or updates or require you to download and install updates to any software required to support the certain Websites, Games, or Services at any time without notice or liability to you. You acknowledge that your use of the Websites, Organized Play, Games or Services does not confer on you any interest, monetary or otherwise, in any aspect or feature, including but not limited to any rewards, prizes achievements, levels, Virtual Currency, or Virtual Items. You also acknowledge that any character or account data, Game progress, Game customization or other data related to your use of any of Wizards products or services may cease to be available to you at any time without notice from us, including without limitation after a patch, update, or upgrade is applied by Wizards. We do not have any maintenance or support obligations with respect to the Websites, Organized Play, Games or Services. You agree that updates may change the requirements necessary to use the Websites, Organized Play, Games or Services and agree that in such an event you are responsible for any necessary actions, including but not limited to software or hardware, to access and use the Websites, Organized Play, Games or Services. You are not entitled to any subsequent updates nor is Wizards obligated to provide you with updates.
Even with WotC owning DDB, you're buying access not ownership, though that's a very blunt parsing of the legal technicality. Realistically, if a lawsuit went the class action route, there'd be some sort of settlement, though usually in those cases the plaintiffs claimed loss isn't made whole.
But that's all presuming WotC/DDB "did" follow through with something they clearly "could." I don't see that happening for at least as long as DDB supports 5e. And honestly with some stuff popping up like the unrevised monster stats that exist in EGtW, I wouldn't be surprised if there may be avenues for access to the "legacy" by new users, as well as the attendant lore, in some fashion in the foresseable future. Just speculation, but MMM has been a problematic call for the brand since the boxed set came out.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Thanks, BigHearted. I can still see a Breach of contract suit happening, though, if they pull content they sold to thousands of DDB users.
Ultimately, what this means is that people who want to preserve access to older content in the long run may need to rely on websites Not owned by WotC or get the hard bound version.
The contract only stipulates that you have access to content you paid for as long as it's hosted on DDB. If WotC decides to take it off DDB, it's considered their right as the owner of said content. People could and almost certainly would try to sue over it, but the way the laws are written it would most likely be found to have no merit.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
First, good game publishers never change existing material in major ways. The material in MotM warranted either 5.5e or 6e. They have now induced massive confusion between those who have the old materials, and those who did not have them. As usual, they dumped this on the DM's to make work out in the world. IMO this book is basically theft. They took existing material, changed it in major ways, destroyed the value of already existing materials we bought, bundled it together in a new book and published it to drive their "We have to sell X number of books a year" mantra. Yes it addressed a few particularly bad problems, particularly in the more non-standard races. But that's not worth $50.
As an aside, my book also had print ink and damaged print page issues. Why is it that whenever WOTC does a 1st print of a book, they have so much trouble with their QA?
I wish I could just turn this book back in and get my money back. I will not be buying any new 5e material from WOTC. I have more material than I can already use, and there are many wonderful 3rd party books that provide me with more of what I need. When they release 5.5e or 6e, I will re-evaluate.
I agree with most of this.
For it to be theft however... that's debatable. Still, what they did with M3 was not at all fair to the customers of their game.
They reused almost all the content, and delisted books. I hope that is not done again.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.As a related side note, the fact that they have ceased selling MToF and VGtM; and may well pull the existing versions off of DnD Beyond someday from previous purchasers illustrates a key constraint of electronic book. Also, of note: super lengthy contract forms often found with app purchases and online stores for virtual products can be used to circumvent conventional legal avenues of remedy. Both further enshrine power in the hands of the corporate-powers-that-be, in this case, WotC.
People have been pointing out that issue with cloud-based services since before DDB was even a thing. It's weird how so many people here seem to have just now noticed.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Define "Major". Define "good game publishers".
This isn't new to D&D 5e. Other TTRPGs and similar mediums of entertainment (Video Games, Board Games) get similar rule changes, too.
In a video game, if there's a bug, people generally expect the designers to fix it. The unbalanced nature of many of the races that got revised in this book is a "bug" that's being fixed by WotC through this book. Bug fixes that help balance the game are generally a good thing. Trying to make the game more balanced is not a bad thing.
Good thing that one is coming in two years and this book was designed specifically to get people ready for the changes that will be happening to the Core Rulebooks in 2024.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms