When I mentioned class based ASI’s instead of tied to race I meant it as floating ASI’s that you pick when you select your class, along with class proficiencies like skills, etc. so if you go fighter you pick your proficiencies, your fighting style, and your +2/+1. You want to put them in CHA and WIS be my guest.
Why give an ASI at level 1 at all? Just make initial stat generation slightly more generous and don't give an ASI at all.
When I mentioned class based ASI’s instead of tied to race I meant it as floating ASI’s that you pick when you select your class, along with class proficiencies like skills, etc. so if you go fighter you pick your proficiencies, your fighting style, and your +2/+1. You want to put them in CHA and WIS be my guest.
Why give an ASI at level 1 at all? Just make initial stat generation slightly more generous and don't give an ASI at all.
With point buy I suppose you could just allocate some extra points into the system and raise the cap of 15. For rolled stats though I kind of like the second layer of first deciding where to allocate my rolled stats and then which ones to apply the bonuses to.
I for one also like the racial ASIs and hope we get them back in 5.5e. I think there should also be an option to take a floating ASI too for those who prefer it. Give us both options and let us choose which one we use.
The problem with that is on which of the methods is the "mainstream" one that people ussually use.
For example, I agree with giving people the option to do both, but I think racial tied ASI's should be the variant, and "unattached" ASI's should be the norm.
A lot of chaos would ensue if there was no "regular" method, and for each campaign, you had to choose which one you were using.
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When I mentioned class based ASI’s instead of tied to race I meant it as floating ASI’s that you pick when you select your class, along with class proficiencies like skills, etc. so if you go fighter you pick your proficiencies, your fighting style, and your +2/+1. You want to put them in CHA and WIS be my guest.
Why give an ASI at level 1 at all? Just make initial stat generation slightly more generous and don't give an ASI at all.
As Nyr pointed out this would leave out those who want to roll for stats as a method for generation. Of course rolled stats have the ability to get higher starting stats but also the possibility of lower starting stats.
Why do folks who roll for stats need an extra special secondary adjustment? They want to let Fate and the universe decide their numbers, they can do so. Roll 4d6, drop lowest, employ whatever safety net their particular table has to ensure everybody gets a Superhero Array, and have at it.
Why do folks who roll for stats need an extra special secondary adjustment? They want to let Fate and the universe decide their numbers, they can do so. Roll 4d6, drop lowest, employ whatever safety net their particular table has to ensure everybody gets a Superhero Array, and have at it.
For the same reason we have ASI's in the first place...whatever reason that is. The base stat generation is different, but that's about it. If you want to stick to the base stat generation, you could argue that. It does simplify things. However, it does give agency to the player to boost a particular stat (or 3, however they decide to work it). The only one that doesn't really benefit (from a giving player agency point of view) is point buy, since it's all agency anyway. However, I think the point buyers would complain that their characters are underpowered compared to the others. Either they all get it, or none do. It is a bit of a legacy thing at this point, but I think it is beneficial for them all to have it.
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I do like the idea of losing the racial ASI's and putting the into the PC's level 1 class as some have mentioned a Wizard getting +2 Int, +1 Wis say where an Artificer may get +1 Int, +1 Con, +1 Dex and so on. I would also like if they changed some things like giving Warlocks and Bards the Choice of either Int or Cha for their casting stat. Things along those lines would be interesting I think. I am also wondering if we are gonna get the option of more races getting the choice of Small or Medium size as some very traditional medium races got the choice of Small or Medium like Aasimar, Tortle, Yuan-Ti will this go into more races like Human, Tiefling and so on?
However, it does give agency to the player to boost a particular stat.
If you want player agency, why are you rolling?
Is there a rule against wanting a mix? Or wanting to have the stats given to you, but then modify them a bit? It's not an all or nothing thing.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
However, it does give agency to the player to boost a particular stat.
If you want player agency, why are you rolling?
Things don't have to be one extreme or the other. Given that part of the game mechanically is rolling a d20 to determine success but focusing on having a good modifier to make that roll more likely to succeed for skills or attacks your'e invested in etc, I don't see why this is hard to wrap one's head around.
Why do folks who roll for stats need an extra special secondary adjustment? They want to let Fate and the universe decide their numbers, they can do so. Roll 4d6, drop lowest, employ whatever safety net their particular table has to ensure everybody gets a Superhero Array, and have at it.
Well I believe it’s a generation method in the PHB so would seem odd to say, do it this official way or use an official variant method but you get these bonuses to add on top.
Edit: from the PHB, rolled is the primary method with array as a time saver and point buy as a variant. And rollers already get the ASI’s but from races so why should it be different if ASI’s came from Class? Or is it just “my way or the highway”?
You generate your character’s six ability scoresrandomly. Roll four 6-sided dice and record the total of the highest three dice on a piece of scratch paper. Do this five more times, so that you have six numbers. If you want to save time or don’t like the idea of randomly determining ability scores, you can use the following scores instead: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.
Now take your six numbers and write each number beside one of your character’s six abilities to assign scores to Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. Afterward, make any changes to your ability scores as a result of your race choice.
After assigning your ability scores, determine your ability modifiers using the Ability Scores and Modifiers table. To determine an ability modifier without consulting the table, subtract 10 from the ability score and then divide the result by 2 (round down). Write the modifier next to each of your scores.
Variant: Customizing Ability Scores
At your Dungeon Master’s option, you can use this variant for determining your ability scores. The method described here allows you to build a character with a set of ability scores you choose individually.
You have 27 points to spend on your ability scores. The cost of each score is shown on the Ability Score Point Cost table. For example, a score of 14 costs 7 points. Using this method, 15 is the highest ability score you can end up with, before applying racial increases. You can’t have a score lower than 8.
This method of determining ability scores enables you to create a set of three high numbers and three low ones (15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8), a set of numbers that are above average and nearly equal (13, 13, 13, 12, 12, 12), or any set of numbers between those extremes.
However, it does give agency to the player to boost a particular stat.
If you want player agency, why are you rolling?
Things don't have to be one extreme or the other. Given that part of the game mechanically is rolling a d20 to determine success but focusing on having a good modifier to make that roll more likely to succeed for skills or attacks your'e invested in etc, I don't see why this is hard to wrap one's head around.
The fact that you can choose the order of rolled stats already gives you that option. If you were required to roll the stats in order you probably need a final adjustment to eliminate dysfunctional setups, but as it is all it does is optimize your stats.
As Nyr pointed out this would leave out those who want to roll for stats as a method for generation.
No it doesn't. Just make rolling slightly more generous (such as by formalizing many of the house rules people already use).
Doesn't rolling 4d6 drop the lowest already give better scores on average than Standard Array/Point Buy?
Yes, but no, but yes (comparing to standard array). Googling it, the most likely array apparently gives you a higher highest stat (by +1) and then higher lowest stats (by +1 each), so technically +3 overall. However, other than your top stat, those are your dump stats, they're not really of interest anyway. The fact that you run the risk of getting just a naff character, that you statistically will be likely to improve your top stat by +1 isn't really a massive deal. If you got rid of ASIs only for 4d6k3, then it would be objectively the worst method unless you get really lucky.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Yes, but no, but yes (comparing to standard array). Googling it, the most likely array apparently gives you a higher highest stat (by +1) and then higher lowest stats (by +1 each), so technically +3 overall. However, other than your top stat, those are your dump stats, they're not really of interest anyway. The fact that you run the risk of getting just a naff character, that you statistically will be likely to improve your top stat by +1 isn't really a massive deal. If you got rid of ASIs only for 4d6k3, then it would be objectively the worst method unless you get really lucky.
4k3 as actually used (where people generally get to reroll characters that seem overly weak) is quite a bit more powerful than point buy.
However, it does give agency to the player to boost a particular stat.
If you want player agency, why are you rolling?
Things don't have to be one extreme or the other. Given that part of the game mechanically is rolling a d20 to determine success but focusing on having a good modifier to make that roll more likely to succeed for skills or attacks your'e invested in etc, I don't see why this is hard to wrap one's head around.
The fact that you can choose the order of rolled stats already gives you that option. If you were required to roll the stats in order you probably need a final adjustment to eliminate dysfunctional setups, but as it is all it does is optimize your stats.
We rolled in order 3d6 back in 1E AD&D and you rolled first and then decided what class you could be, not what you wanted to be. With boring old Fighter as the final refuge of bad rolls. Don’t want that In this edition or future ones. I rolled my current character 4d6 and still ended up with a 4 that got dumped into CHA. I prefer point buy or standard array, but my DM likes us to roll, so we did.
However, it does give agency to the player to boost a particular stat.
If you want player agency, why are you rolling?
Things don't have to be one extreme or the other. Given that part of the game mechanically is rolling a d20 to determine success but focusing on having a good modifier to make that roll more likely to succeed for skills or attacks your'e invested in etc, I don't see why this is hard to wrap one's head around.
The fact that you can choose the order of rolled stats already gives you that option. If you were required to roll the stats in order you probably need a final adjustment to eliminate dysfunctional setups, but as it is all it does is optimize your stats.
Not really, it helps somewhat, but you get a lot more agency if you get to Pick where you put your bonuses as well as where you place your stats. In standard array there are no factors that you don't get to control, in the roll for stats method, you are going to get a lot less control over what happens. But as others have said, ASI's do help give you at least a neccessary baseline of control over this method, if you did not have and ASI's, you might have such low scores in a few stats that almost no one would take this method.
However, it does give agency to the player to boost a particular stat.
If you want player agency, why are you rolling?
Things don't have to be one extreme or the other. Given that part of the game mechanically is rolling a d20 to determine success but focusing on having a good modifier to make that roll more likely to succeed for skills or attacks your'e invested in etc, I don't see why this is hard to wrap one's head around.
The fact that you can choose the order of rolled stats already gives you that option. If you were required to roll the stats in order you probably need a final adjustment to eliminate dysfunctional setups, but as it is all it does is optimize your stats.
We rolled in order 3d6 back in 1E AD&D and you rolled first and then decided what class you could be, not what you wanted to be. With boring old Fighter as the final refuge of bad rolls. Don’t want that In this edition or future ones. I rolled my current character 4d6 and still ended up with a 4 that got dumped into CHA.
I prefer point buy or standard array, but my DM likes us to roll, so we did.
I wish DM's didn't do that. Players should always get to go with whatever (balanced) option they like, and I think DM's should not restrict that choice.
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BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explainHERE.
Why do folks who roll for stats need an extra special secondary adjustment? They want to let Fate and the universe decide their numbers, they can do so. Roll 4d6, drop lowest, employ whatever safety net their particular table has to ensure everybody gets a Superhero Array, and have at it.
Why can't we have what we like? It has no impact on you does it? Do you just hate people having fun in a way different than you?
I actually like rolling for ability scores in order and generating a character from that. Then class is one more piece of the puzzle added on, and race (including fixed ASIs) as another piece added on top. Background and proficiencies round it out in the end. It’s like a build-a-bear, but for PCs. It’s one of the reasons I like that forum game so much. It’s fun. Why is my fun so wrong to so many people?
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Why give an ASI at level 1 at all? Just make initial stat generation slightly more generous and don't give an ASI at all.
With point buy I suppose you could just allocate some extra points into the system and raise the cap of 15. For rolled stats though I kind of like the second layer of first deciding where to allocate my rolled stats and then which ones to apply the bonuses to.
The problem with that is on which of the methods is the "mainstream" one that people ussually use.
For example, I agree with giving people the option to do both, but I think racial tied ASI's should be the variant, and "unattached" ASI's should be the norm.
A lot of chaos would ensue if there was no "regular" method, and for each campaign, you had to choose which one you were using.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.As Nyr pointed out this would leave out those who want to roll for stats as a method for generation. Of course rolled stats have the ability to get higher starting stats but also the possibility of lower starting stats.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Why do folks who roll for stats need an extra special secondary adjustment? They want to let Fate and the universe decide their numbers, they can do so. Roll 4d6, drop lowest, employ whatever safety net their particular table has to ensure everybody gets a Superhero Array, and have at it.
Please do not contact or message me.
No it doesn't. Just make rolling slightly more generous (such as by formalizing many of the house rules people already use).
For the same reason we have ASI's in the first place...whatever reason that is. The base stat generation is different, but that's about it. If you want to stick to the base stat generation, you could argue that. It does simplify things. However, it does give agency to the player to boost a particular stat (or 3, however they decide to work it). The only one that doesn't really benefit (from a giving player agency point of view) is point buy, since it's all agency anyway. However, I think the point buyers would complain that their characters are underpowered compared to the others. Either they all get it, or none do. It is a bit of a legacy thing at this point, but I think it is beneficial for them all to have it.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Doesn't rolling 4d6 drop the lowest already give better scores on average than Standard Array/Point Buy?
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
If you want player agency, why are you rolling?
I do like the idea of losing the racial ASI's and putting the into the PC's level 1 class as some have mentioned a Wizard getting +2 Int, +1 Wis say where an Artificer may get +1 Int, +1 Con, +1 Dex and so on. I would also like if they changed some things like giving Warlocks and Bards the Choice of either Int or Cha for their casting stat. Things along those lines would be interesting I think. I am also wondering if we are gonna get the option of more races getting the choice of Small or Medium size as some very traditional medium races got the choice of Small or Medium like Aasimar, Tortle, Yuan-Ti will this go into more races like Human, Tiefling and so on?
Is there a rule against wanting a mix? Or wanting to have the stats given to you, but then modify them a bit? It's not an all or nothing thing.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Things don't have to be one extreme or the other. Given that part of the game mechanically is rolling a d20 to determine success but focusing on having a good modifier to make that roll more likely to succeed for skills or attacks your'e invested in etc, I don't see why this is hard to wrap one's head around.
Well I believe it’s a generation method in the PHB so would seem odd to say, do it this official way or use an official variant method but you get these bonuses to add on top.
Edit: from the PHB, rolled is the primary method with array as a time saver and point buy as a variant. And rollers already get the ASI’s but from races so why should it be different if ASI’s came from Class? Or is it just “my way or the highway”?
You generate your character’s six ability scoresrandomly. Roll four 6-sided dice and record the total of the highest three dice on a piece of scratch paper. Do this five more times, so that you have six numbers. If you want to save time or don’t like the idea of randomly determining ability scores, you can use the following scores instead: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.
Now take your six numbers and write each number beside one of your character’s six abilities to assign scores to Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. Afterward, make any changes to your ability scores as a result of your race choice.
After assigning your ability scores, determine your ability modifiers using the Ability Scores and Modifiers table. To determine an ability modifier without consulting the table, subtract 10 from the ability score and then divide the result by 2 (round down). Write the modifier next to each of your scores.
Variant: Customizing Ability Scores
At your Dungeon Master’s option, you can use this variant for determining your ability scores. The method described here allows you to build a character with a set of ability scores you choose individually.
You have 27 points to spend on your ability scores. The cost of each score is shown on the Ability Score Point Cost table. For example, a score of 14 costs 7 points. Using this method, 15 is the highest ability score you can end up with, before applying racial increases. You can’t have a score lower than 8.
This method of determining ability scores enables you to create a set of three high numbers and three low ones (15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8), a set of numbers that are above average and nearly equal (13, 13, 13, 12, 12, 12), or any set of numbers between those extremes.
Measures: Natural athleticism, bodily power
Important for: Barbarian, fighter, paladin
Racial Increases:
Mountain dwarf (+2)
Dragonborn (+2)
Half-orc (+2)
Human (+1)
Measures: Physical agility, reflexes, balance, poise
Important for: Monk, ranger, rogue
Racial Increases:
Elf (+2)
Halfling (+2)
Forest gnome (+1)
Human (+1)
Measures: Health, stamina, vital force
Important for: Everyone
Racial Increases:
Dwarf (+2)
Stout halfling (+1)
Rock gnome (+1)
Half-orc (+1)
Human (+1)
Measures: Mental acuity, information recall, analytical skill
Important for: Wizard
Racial Increases:
High elf (+1)
Gnome (+2)
Tiefling (+1)
Human (+1)
Measures: Awareness, intuition, insight
Important for: Cleric, druid
Racial Increases:
Hill dwarf (+1)
Wood elf (+1)
Human (+1)
Measures: Confidence, eloquence, leadership
Important for: Bard, sorcerer, warlock
Racial Increases:
Half-elf (+2)
Drow (+1)
Lightfoot halfling (+1)
Dragonborn (+1)
Tiefling (+2)
Human (+1)
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
The fact that you can choose the order of rolled stats already gives you that option. If you were required to roll the stats in order you probably need a final adjustment to eliminate dysfunctional setups, but as it is all it does is optimize your stats.
Yes, but no, but yes (comparing to standard array). Googling it, the most likely array apparently gives you a higher highest stat (by +1) and then higher lowest stats (by +1 each), so technically +3 overall. However, other than your top stat, those are your dump stats, they're not really of interest anyway. The fact that you run the risk of getting just a naff character, that you statistically will be likely to improve your top stat by +1 isn't really a massive deal. If you got rid of ASIs only for 4d6k3, then it would be objectively the worst method unless you get really lucky.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
4k3 as actually used (where people generally get to reroll characters that seem overly weak) is quite a bit more powerful than point buy.
We rolled in order 3d6 back in 1E AD&D and you rolled first and then decided what class you could be, not what you wanted to be. With boring old Fighter as the final refuge of bad rolls.
Don’t want that In this edition or future ones.
I rolled my current character 4d6 and still ended up with a 4 that got dumped into CHA. I prefer point buy or standard array, but my DM likes us to roll, so we did.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Not really, it helps somewhat, but you get a lot more agency if you get to Pick where you put your bonuses as well as where you place your stats. In standard array there are no factors that you don't get to control, in the roll for stats method, you are going to get a lot less control over what happens. But as others have said, ASI's do help give you at least a neccessary baseline of control over this method, if you did not have and ASI's, you might have such low scores in a few stats that almost no one would take this method.
I wish DM's didn't do that. Players should always get to go with whatever (balanced) option they like, and I think DM's should not restrict that choice.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.Why can't we have what we like? It has no impact on you does it? Do you just hate people having fun in a way different than you?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I actually like rolling for ability scores in order and generating a character from that. Then class is one more piece of the puzzle added on, and race (including fixed ASIs) as another piece added on top. Background and proficiencies round it out in the end. It’s like a build-a-bear, but for PCs. It’s one of the reasons I like that forum game so much. It’s fun. Why is my fun so wrong to so many people?