If at any time you get unlucky Twitch/Curse/Beyond can screw you over.
In the terms it is clearly stated: Twitch reserves the right to deactivate a User from any Twitch service for any reason or no reason. Once a User has been deactivated, any digital goods accumulated by that User in connection with using D&D Beyond will be forfeited and may not be reinstated.
So much for all the talk about the pros and cons of owning a physical book or a Beyond copy. They cannot take away your book, so how can it be legal, for no reason at all, to simply take your money and then close your account?
Mother nature can though... or other unespected events like fire, theft, and what have you. Roughly the same likeliness of happening as Twitch/Curse shutting down someone's account without reason.
...how can it be legal, for no reason at all, to simply take your money and then close your account?
Because the user/buyer has specifically agreed to that possibility in advance of using or paying for anything. Of course, it being legal doesn't mean Twitch/Curse have any motivation to actually do this thing which they are allowed to do, as it would give them a bad reputation that would likely have more negative results for them than to just leave accounts alone unless they have a reason to shut them down.
This guards them legally from a lot of lawsuits. If they accidentally ban you instead of someone else even for 2 minutes before they fix the solution, you could sue without that clause. But Hyatt like you can jump off a roof at any time doesn't mean it is a wise idea.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You only lose if you die. Any time else, there's opportunity for a come back.
All the ways to loose a book that you mention are ways that you have means to protect against or at least insure in some way.
My post is more about the fact that VERY few actually read & understand the terms of the agreement. And I cannot fathom why it is in any way legal to, for no reason at all, simply delete any records or digital products that a user has bought and paid in full. People expect to own what they pay for, especially when they pay almost the same for the digital products as for the physical products.
All the ways to loose a book that you mention are ways that you have means to protect against or at least insure in some way.
My post is more about the fact that VERY few actually read & understand the terms of the agreement. And I cannot fathom why it is in any way legal to, for no reason at all, simply delete any records or digital products that a user has bought and paid in full. People expect to own what they pay for, especially when they pay almost the same for the digital products as for the physical products.
This is how digital services have to work. Go read the TOS on steam, apple, or any service where you purchase licenses (which is what you do here) they should all have similar wording. If you aren't comfortable with it, I guess you need to buy the physical books.
I can only assume that the recourse you seek is that you should be able to download a digital copy like a pdf? Well, again that isn't offered, so maybe this isn't the service for you.
My post is more about the fact that VERY few actually read & understand the terms of the agreement.
It's not on the company writing the terms - so while it is a fact that very few actually read the terms, it's their choice to say they have and sign up or buy-in anyways.
A lot like how many people choose to not use their indicator while driving or to not obey posted speed limits - that it's common doesn't mean it isn't that person's fault if something goes badly as a result.
So I take it that you do not pay ANY insurance at all. Since bad things will likely happen.
That doesn't even kind of follow from anything anyone has said.
My post was more a wake up call about consumer rights than dndBeyond being the bad guy here.
The language you used, talking about Twitch/Curse not having to have a reason to cause the loss of access/purchases rather than saying something like "This is why it's important to actually read the terms when you sign up for stuff", made it sound like the point was calling out Curse/Twitch for putting this clause in the terms (which, as pseudoimmortal pointed out, is likely designed to cover the company should accidentally cause someone a loss of account or content more so than it is to enable malicious or unreasonable actions).
I actually feel like you were adding to a whole "books > online", and implicitly downvoting curse/beyond, even as much as you say you weren't. the first line of the post indicates this to me. In this case, I feel like you have not added constructively to the discussion, and feel like your post has the attitude of whining.
This is the same sort of ass backwards logic that shallow thinking people who jump to conclusions and assume that just because someone CAN do you wrong, that they WILL do you wrong. Here's the facts: if twitch decides to screw someone, ONE, not even plural, person over and drop their 250 investment in the trash with zero compensation, the backlash after that news spreads would ultimately result in a fiscal boycott of their digital product. In turn, other companies will refuse to do business with them as it will tarnish their reputation as well. The amount lost, if it is just one 250 dollar amount, would end up being AT LEAST tens of thousands of dollars in measurable lost revenue for at least a year.
Now since you seem to have a hard time thinking past the immediate point made, I'll spell it out for you.
250 < 10,000
This means no way in hell would they do that. The more people they do that to, the more the likelihood of loss and the greater that loss would be. It would be be a PR suicide. On the flip side, however, if some sort of accident were to befall a user and their data and they compensated you for it, that makes them look good, resulting in good word of mouth publicity which is significantly better than, bad publicity for starters, but any advertising they could do. You are likely to be able to keep your books more if you digitize them because of this versus an act of god, because the heavens won't give you a new book
Get this weak argument off the forums. Don't like the site? Leave.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You only lose if you die. Any time else, there's opportunity for a come back.
Buying digital has inherent risks, just like buying physical.
If you really and truly only care about having redundancy for the content itself, you can go through and make pdfs of each website. You should probably print off those pdfs afterwards as an emp pulse might wipe out all computers. And maybe have those print offs also engraved into some metal or stone slabs. And keep multiple copies in different locations in case of catastrophic loss.
I'm pretty sure this is in line with any digital TOS agreement you'll see anywhere. As was said, most people just tend to click "I agree" without reading the fine print, but that's on the user.
As far as "How can this be legal?" Well, you clicked "I Agree." You signed a contract without reading it first. No one made you do that. No one lied to you about what was in the contract. They put it right in front of you.
If you are in general a respectful user, it is more likely for the service to be shut down on the whole (fairly much a guaranteed situation eventually) than Twitch/Curse would remove your access to what you have paid for.
The clause is there generally like laws against theft exist, to have legal room to deal with less savory influences to the community that would otherwise exploit those issues if it didn't exist. If Twitch/Curse wanted the money at the expense of their reputation there are far simpler ways with much less effort on their part to do that.
Sure, there’s something to be said for being more aware as consumers and paying attention to the actual terms of service (and many of us actually did), but it’s not just a Curse thing. Every single digital service has similar terms. Every one. Amazon can delete books off your Kindle. Apple has no promises about any song, movie, or app if you don’t have your own back up.
I can understand not being pleased about it (don’t even get me started on mandatory arbitration clauses!). But this is across many, many industries - basically the entire internet at least.
Sure, there’s something to be said for being more aware as consumers and paying attention to the actual terms of service (and many of us actually did), but it’s not just a Curse thing. Every single digital service has similar terms. Every one. Amazon can delete books off your Kindle. Apple has no promises about any song, movie, or app if you don’t have your own back up.
I can understand not being pleased about it (don’t even get me started on mandatory arbitration clauses!). But this is across many, many industries - basically the entire internet at least.
My favorite mandatory arbitration clause basically said if there is a problem, you have to discuss it with them first, if an agreement can't be met, you must continue to arbitrate until one can be made that both parties agree on. About a year after I started that job they legally had to change that whole part because it was deemed illegal lol
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You only lose if you die. Any time else, there's opportunity for a come back.
Reading all the T&Cs we sign up for would, literally, suck weeks out of our lives. Not saying you don't have a point, but in the end most people sign up with a combination of naiveté, trust and apathy. As others have pointed out, these sorts of conditions are a legal backstop if something particularly bad happens and I doubt Curse is out to screw its customers and wreck its reputation. That said, I do agree with those making the point that digital is probably more prone to loss than physical. Most people are happy to wear the risk (until something goes wrong). Mind you, I also had to get a copy of my PHB rebound and the second is on its way out (yes I have 3 copies including DDB - crazy I know) so maybe those defending digital also have a point.
If at any time you get unlucky Twitch/Curse/Beyond can screw you over.
In the terms it is clearly stated: Twitch reserves the right to deactivate a User from any Twitch service for any reason or no reason. Once a User has been deactivated, any digital goods accumulated by that User in connection with using D&D Beyond will be forfeited and may not be reinstated.
So much for all the talk about the pros and cons of owning a physical book or a Beyond copy. They cannot take away your book, so how can it be legal, for no reason at all, to simply take your money and then close your account?
Mother nature can though... or other unespected events like fire, theft, and what have you. Roughly the same likeliness of happening as Twitch/Curse shutting down someone's account without reason.
Because the user/buyer has specifically agreed to that possibility in advance of using or paying for anything. Of course, it being legal doesn't mean Twitch/Curse have any motivation to actually do this thing which they are allowed to do, as it would give them a bad reputation that would likely have more negative results for them than to just leave accounts alone unless they have a reason to shut them down.This guards them legally from a lot of lawsuits. If they accidentally ban you instead of someone else even for 2 minutes before they fix the solution, you could sue without that clause. But Hyatt like you can jump off a roof at any time doesn't mean it is a wise idea.
You only lose if you die. Any time else, there's opportunity for a come back.
All the ways to loose a book that you mention are ways that you have means to protect against or at least insure in some way.
My post is more about the fact that VERY few actually read & understand the terms of the agreement. And I cannot fathom why it is in any way legal to, for no reason at all, simply delete any records or digital products that a user has bought and paid in full. People expect to own what they pay for, especially when they pay almost the same for the digital products as for the physical products.
Even so, it is a pretty inane point to make when it will likely never happen.
You only lose if you die. Any time else, there's opportunity for a come back.
This is how digital services have to work. Go read the TOS on steam, apple, or any service where you purchase licenses (which is what you do here) they should all have similar wording. If you aren't comfortable with it, I guess you need to buy the physical books.
Legendary Bundle ~ Master Tier
So I take it that you do not pay ANY insurance at all. Since bad things will likely never happen.
My post was more a wake up call about consumer rights than dndBeyond being the bad guy here.
I actually feel like you were adding to a whole "books > online", and implicitly downvoting curse/beyond, even as much as you say you weren't. the first line of the post indicates this to me. In this case, I feel like you have not added constructively to the discussion, and feel like your post has the attitude of whining.
This is the same sort of ass backwards logic that shallow thinking people who jump to conclusions and assume that just because someone CAN do you wrong, that they WILL do you wrong. Here's the facts: if twitch decides to screw someone, ONE, not even plural, person over and drop their 250 investment in the trash with zero compensation, the backlash after that news spreads would ultimately result in a fiscal boycott of their digital product. In turn, other companies will refuse to do business with them as it will tarnish their reputation as well. The amount lost, if it is just one 250 dollar amount, would end up being AT LEAST tens of thousands of dollars in measurable lost revenue for at least a year.
Now since you seem to have a hard time thinking past the immediate point made, I'll spell it out for you.
250 < 10,000
This means no way in hell would they do that. The more people they do that to, the more the likelihood of loss and the greater that loss would be. It would be be a PR suicide. On the flip side, however, if some sort of accident were to befall a user and their data and they compensated you for it, that makes them look good, resulting in good word of mouth publicity which is significantly better than, bad publicity for starters, but any advertising they could do. You are likely to be able to keep your books more if you digitize them because of this versus an act of god, because the heavens won't give you a new book
Get this weak argument off the forums. Don't like the site? Leave.
You only lose if you die. Any time else, there's opportunity for a come back.
Buying digital has inherent risks, just like buying physical.
If you really and truly only care about having redundancy for the content itself, you can go through and make pdfs of each website. You should probably print off those pdfs afterwards as an emp pulse might wipe out all computers. And maybe have those print offs also engraved into some metal or stone slabs. And keep multiple copies in different locations in case of catastrophic loss.
I'm pretty sure this is in line with any digital TOS agreement you'll see anywhere. As was said, most people just tend to click "I agree" without reading the fine print, but that's on the user.
As far as "How can this be legal?" Well, you clicked "I Agree." You signed a contract without reading it first. No one made you do that. No one lied to you about what was in the contract. They put it right in front of you.
If you are in general a respectful user, it is more likely for the service to be shut down on the whole (fairly much a guaranteed situation eventually) than Twitch/Curse would remove your access to what you have paid for.
The clause is there generally like laws against theft exist, to have legal room to deal with less savory influences to the community that would otherwise exploit those issues if it didn't exist.
If Twitch/Curse wanted the money at the expense of their reputation there are far simpler ways with much less effort on their part to do that.
- Loswaith
Sure, there’s something to be said for being more aware as consumers and paying attention to the actual terms of service (and many of us actually did), but it’s not just a Curse thing. Every single digital service has similar terms. Every one. Amazon can delete books off your Kindle. Apple has no promises about any song, movie, or app if you don’t have your own back up.
I can understand not being pleased about it (don’t even get me started on mandatory arbitration clauses!). But this is across many, many industries - basically the entire internet at least.
You only lose if you die. Any time else, there's opportunity for a come back.
Reading all the T&Cs we sign up for would, literally, suck weeks out of our lives. Not saying you don't have a point, but in the end most people sign up with a combination of naiveté, trust and apathy. As others have pointed out, these sorts of conditions are a legal backstop if something particularly bad happens and I doubt Curse is out to screw its customers and wreck its reputation. That said, I do agree with those making the point that digital is probably more prone to loss than physical. Most people are happy to wear the risk (until something goes wrong). Mind you, I also had to get a copy of my PHB rebound and the second is on its way out (yes I have 3 copies including DDB - crazy I know) so maybe those defending digital also have a point.
in actuality we are not purchasing a product, we are purchasing a service and access to data.