I like the idea of comparing this theoretical psychic class more to Monks than to spellcasters... move away from the idea that being psychic equates to having spells and more like it grants its own unique abilities….
I have already been suggesting exactly that for a couple of pages now.
<3 Admittedly, this thread has gotten huge... like, not just because it's 5 pages, but we're all really passionate and are writing dissertations for each response.
Haven’t read the entire thread but I always felt that the Rune Knight fighter seemed a good candidate for flavoring as a psionic character. Mentally shackling an opponent (psychic damage instead of fire for fire rune). Charming an opponent, boosting ability checks and saves, etc. I’m not suggesting that is how they develop a psion class or anything.
I really like Yurei’s idea of the telekinetic based awakened mind character. something like the Fire rune restrains similar to Telekinesis but a variation of that could be a step up from the Telekinetic feat without it turning into I just cast a spell (Telekinesis)
I like the idea of comparing this theoretical psychic class more to Monks than to spellcasters... move away from the idea that being psychic equates to having spells and more like it grants its own unique abilities….
I have already been suggesting exactly that for a couple of pages now.
This has me thinking out-of-the-box on another way to approach Psionicists within the bounds of what DnDBeyond Homebrew offer. Ideally it would be nice to create a straight new class but we don't have that. My current draft has them as a Sorcerer subclass. Now I'm thinking about how to work in mechanics if I used the Rogue as a base class. They have the cleanest/most normal core class abilities. I think I can make psionic skill tree, a path to follow as the class levels up. The difference between the Sorcerer and the Rogue is that Sorcerers use the spell mechanics. For Rogues I think it will come with custom actions fueled by psychic energy points to allow for 'punching-above-level'. This may also mean that there would be less variance in the Rogue based Psionicists, whereas the Sorcerer based Psionicist can potentially work on new ways (spells) to harness their power. The Rogue based Psionicist will be a lot of work to define and make but I think it will be a simpler more enjoyable play for players. I feel the more IMAGINATIVE players will be able to make the Rogue based Psionicist sing.
Part of me likes the idea of using your Hit Die as your resource for this class... it fits thematically, as losing a hit die feels like it conveys a similar idea to the classic "psychic nosebleed", where a Psychic character utilizing their powers is clearly draining some aspect of themselves, but something that doesn't hinder you mid-battle since it doesn't reduce your current HP. That said, I'm hesitant to make hit die this class's primary resource... it's a cool concept, and in a lot of tables it will work out fine, since short rests aren't always done regularly for every group, but it could make the class very crippled in the long run
This is a good idea as long as it is by numbers of dice rather than the die themselves. Otherwise you have Barbarians being the best psykers in the multiverse.
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I keep reading posts about adding new systems, scaffolding, complexity, etc... followed by we already have spell slots just use that! But I don't understand if anyone is asking for a completely new system, scaffolding etc, added. There are plenty of classes already that basically have systems in place that a Psionic class can take inspiration. Artificers have infusions, warlocks have invocations, other classes have built in features they get at certain levels.
Couldn't the Psionicist basically get a 1st level feature based on the Telekinetic Feat (you can move or manipulate objects, up to 20 pounds, within 60', and can attempt to shove a creature 5' against an opposed STR check). Then at level 5 the weight limit increases to 50 pounds (or whatever you like) and you can manipulate a weapon and make an attack with it, using INT up to 30' away from you. Level 9 you can add more weight, further shove or push/pull feature. Add one or two more features to the base 1st level telekinetic power.
Add in additional powers that you can learn (similar to invocations) that can modify the telekinetic power (like agonizing blast, repelling blast, etc does for Eldritch Blast) or ones that allow you to manipulate a creature's mind (advantage on CHA skill checks or can use INT instead of CHA, Charmed effect, Frightened effect, etc.) Defensive powers (use your mind to throw up a defense to add +2 to AC or deflect an attack away from you or redirect it to another creature. Things like that. You pick X number of powers (a small amount, some with level requirements if they are more powerful.
A subclass could focus on the weapon attacking feature of the Telekinetic power. Gain Medium armor and shield proficiency, can use the telekinetic weapon attack as a bonus action using INT, leaving their action for attacking or other subclass powers.
None of this would require a "new" system or anything and is no more complex than any other class, really.
And as far as comments about psionic powers that magic already does so why bother? Well, the same could be said for many class features in this game. Wizards can pretty much do, via spells, what most everyone else can do already, so it isn't much of an argument against a psionic class.
This is just my two cents and I'm sure much of it isn't what psionic class proponents are looking for, but it was just a thought.
There are other ideas for subclasses in this thread that could be fleshed out.
Yes some of us are asking for a new system. Yurei is by far the most vocal in this but she is not alone. I played a number of psionic characters in 2&3e and the “new” magic based “psionic” subclasses (especially the aberrant sorceror) just don’t have the same feel. The sorceror, as described, feels far more like a far realm patron warlock than an old school psion. The others work but I’m not a huge fan of them (on the other hand I wasn’t a great fan of them in 2/3e either) I’ve got a thread started in the homebrew section for those interested in helping to design a solid system but it’s very much an early work in progress.
I think we all have played the Aberrant Mind Sorcerer. It's ok. But I see it more as mind magic as opposed to pure psionic power.
I did have fun with the Aberrant Mind Sorcerer. The problem for me is they get spent doing trivial RP level things that I expect a psionicist can handle more easily. So when it comes time for the Aberrant Mind Sorcerer to battle, I've got nothing left to contribute. Mage Hand is not enough and Telekinesis is high level (aka "too draining")...there's no good in between.
Yes some of us are asking for a new system. Yurei is by far the most vocal in this but she is not alone. I played a number of psionic characters in 2&3e and the “new” magic based “psionic” subclasses (especially the aberrant sorceror) just don’t have the same feel. The sorceror, as described, feels far more like a far realm patron warlock than an old school psion. The others work but I’m not a huge fan of them (on the other hand I wasn’t a great fan of them in 2/3e either) I’ve got a thread started in the homebrew section for those interested in helping to design a solid system but it’s very much an early work in progress.
Have you tried the UA psionicist wizard subclass? The aberrant mind isn't meant to represent the archetypal psion.
Yes. I have tried the "School of Psionics" wizard. It did not, at all, feel like a psychic character. It felt like a normal ordinary everyday wizard who was, for whichever weird reason, cosplaying a psychic character. There was nothing 'psychic' about it., which is probably why it died even though it wasn't mechanically awful. It simply did not feel right. Because, and I will repeat this again...
One of the reasons I enjoy being part of this passtime is the way we are inclined to try to fix problems by homebrewing answers. To my mind this has become a productive conversation, and I'd like to add to it. I'd like to add to it by saying that an important feature of classes in D&D is that they fill narrative roles as well as mechanical ones.
Fighters exist not only because there is a mechanical reason to have a tanky character who doesn't need to spend resources to contribute damage in combat, but also because we want to tell stories about mighty and impressive warriors who may or may not have a code and who become interesting characters by exploring their relationships with violence. I sympathize with complaints about the Mystic from a mechanical standpoint, but the reason I still use the class is that it does manage to fill some narrative roles that I want for the game world. Namely, you get to play a psychic detective if you take the Order of the Awakened.
I'm sure there are any number of ways that the rules could portray this role. Because psionic powers are so unsupported I've been considering whether taking that character idea and creating a diviner wizard would get me close enough. I do tend to come down on the side that says, "no, there's an essential something missing even if I can take the read thoughts spell." I tried homebrewing a psion, but all I was doing was porting 3.5e's take into 5e. A link earlier in this thread lead to a psion which used a stress mechanic to represent the physical toll of manifesting. That's something that's inspiring, although that version specifically didn't connect to the existing exhaustion mechanic, which I found obtuse.
Another interesting thought this conversation sparked for me is that there may be nothing wrong with combining magic and psionics in a messy, organic way. Sure, there's a distinction to be made between psionic perception of thoughts and the read thoughts spell, but that distinction can cut both ways. If we put ourselves in a place where we can't justify giving a pyrokineticist the ability to create balls of fire, we haven't gained.
Flush. You're deliberately misunderstanding my point and we both know it. As WildBill said - obviously it's enough for you to just reflavor some random spellcaster or other as a psychic character. Just as obviously, that is not sufficient for many other people.
Much like how the monk is a specialized martial class with a slew of unique-to-it class features that allow it to fulfill a specific play fantasy/archetype, a Psychic class would be a d8 intermediate/midliner class with a slew of features allowing it to fulfill the play fantasy of being a powerful awakened mind. <...> It has a set of powers, roughly equivalent in number/impact to monk abilities, that it can always use. At will, without limit or effort. It can, however, decide to Push its powers to gain greater effects at the cost of having to burn Hit Dice to do so.
<...>
That would be a really cool alternative to just More God Damned Spellcasting. At least, it sounds like a good start point to me.
Okay, I"l grant you that, but I'll also point out that a lot of the monk's abilities are pretty direct equivalents of "just more spellcasting" in their actual effects. In the interests of fairness, I'll spitball a very rough draft for such a class here and you tell me if I'm closer to what you're suggesting.
And I'll point out right up front that at least one specific example of a class based ability that such a notional class can always use without restriction you suggested in a previous post (telekinesis) is indeed, objectively and without question way too much of an ask. Yes, a fifth level spell at will is ridiculous. And I'm building this around what's basically a reworked Warlock because upon actually thinking about it, that seems a better model than the Monk. That means reflavoring invocations and Pact Magic with a class specific spell list rather than using the same magic system every other spellcaster does and that's as far as you're going to get from me for Not Majik.
Notional class: Psion
Hit die: d8 Proficiency with simple weapons and no armor. Proficiency with 2 skills selected from Arcana, Insight, Investigation, Perception, and Persuasion.
So let's start by taking a page from the Warlock and give this Psion base class a boosted cantrip in the form of mage hand. The Psion gets it automatically and they get the benefits of the Arcane Trickster's Ranged Legerdemain feature at first level (it's invisible and you can manipulate objects and tools with it). Additionally, the weight that can be lifted with it scales at 10 pounds per Psion level. At fifth level the range increases to 60 feet and the Psion can use an action with it to make a shove attack or grapple check using their Intelligence modifier at disadvantage. At eleventh level the range increases to 90 feet and shove attacks, grapple checks, are normal and they get the Extra Attack feature with it. At seventeenth level the shove attacks and grapple checks get advantage.
The Psion also learns a second cantrip and gets more at the same progression of a Warlock. Their spellcasting ablity is Intelligence for any cantrips granted by this class.
At first level the Psion gets Psionic Defense, adding their intelligence modifier to AC if they are not wearing armor.
At first level the Psion also gets Psionic Magic, which is literally Pact Magic with a different spell list using Intelligence instead of Charisma. Same number of spells known and spell slots which are replenished on short rests. Spell list focuses on things that are either mind affecting, based on extrasensory perception, telekinesis type effects , and interacting with magic because like it or not we're still using actual magic rules since they already exist. I'm not going to make up a full list right now but things like magic missile, bigby's hand, charm [x], detect thoughts, detect magic, counterspell, dispel magic, shield, see invisibility, scrying, hold monster, dream, wall of force, fear, speak with dead, locate creature/object.
At second level the Psion gets Psionic Talents. Same rules and progression as Eldritch Invocations. In fact, quite a few are just going to be copy-pasted Invocations plus some others specific to the Psion. Examples of existing Invocations that would work are Ascendent Step, Aspect of the Moon, Beast Speech, Beguiling Influence, Cloak of Flies (call it something else and it deals psychic damage instead of poison), Devil's Sight, Eldritch Mind, Eldritch Sight, and a bunch of others. Just rename them with some minor changes any Charisma dependent effects using Intelligence instead and possibly some damage to psychic or (maybe) force. An example of a Psion specific Talent might be the ability to cast shield a number of times equal to proficiency bonus, either recharging on a long rest or short rest but requiring a specific combat focused subclass.
At third level they get subclasses. A combat focused one can gain the ability to use mage hand to wield a melee weapon and/or deal unarmed strike damage comparable to a monk's Martial Art's damage, including the bonus action extra strike without the weapon and gaining extra attack with it at some point and able to apply combat focused Psionic Talents to it comparable to Warlock Invocations that enhance eldritch blast. A mindf***er variant can get the ability to cast detect thoughts at will and enhanced abilities for mind affecting effects in general such as advantage against charm effects and being able to impose disadvantage on such a number of times equal to proficiency bonus recharging on short rests, with synergies from using Charisma based abilities. A third seer type subclass can focus on extrasensory perception with Wisdom based synergies and bonuses around divinations plus some defensive abilities, and maybe with an ability to grant allies advantages on attacks by giving them flashes of insight (again prof bonus/short rest recharge).
Obviously this is incomplete but I've already spent a good deal of time thinking about this. Does this sound more like what you're advocating?
Flush, I don't want to be rude and I hope I don't come off that way, but I don't think you're understanding what Yurei and other folks have been saying in this thread. Spells just aren't going to cut it, and spellcasting, for us, is just too flawed of a vehicle to use.
One thing I liked a lot (and am still very salty it was killed) was The Psionic Talent die in one of the pre-Tasha's UA's. I felt that was a very good starting point for a psionics system. (It did lead to the Psionic Energy dice pool, which is...a decent starting point, but one that I feel needs more work...)
Flush, I don't want to be rude and I hope I don't come off that way, but I don't think you're understanding what Yurei and other folks have been saying in this thread. Spells just aren't going to cut it, and spellcasting, for us, is just too flawed of a vehicle to use.
And I think that if what Yurei and other folks want is an entirely new set of rules for Brane PoweRz that are explicitly Not Majik they're going to continue to be disappointed because it's not going to happen.
Edit: As an alternative class model, keep the beefed up mage hand and Int based Pact Magic, lose the invocations and replace that with reskinned Sorcery Points and metamagic, and give it subclasses at first level with a progression of features mechanically comparable to Cleric Domains. If you want "something like Ki Points but for Brane PoweRz," you can use the Foure Elements Monk as a model. When's the last time you heard somebody talk about how much they love that subclass?
A further elaboration on my second idea. Keeping the Intelligence based Pact Magic and replacing Invocations with Psi Points. Psi Point pool is equivalent to a Sorcerer's Sorcery Points, can be used for the same metamagic effects, and replenish on a short rest. Psion still gets Psionic Defense (Int mod bonus to AC as long as they are not wearing armor). Psion still gets the improved mage hand described above. They get subclasses at first level. Each subclass grants a specific ability at first level and additional features related to this at later levels, including but not limited to additional ways to spend Psi Points. Two rough draft ideas for subclasses follow.
Brain Puncher
At first level the Brain Puncher gains the ability to use their mage hand to make unarmed strikes. These strikes deal damage equivalent to a Monk's Martial Arts feature at the same level, including the bonus action extra attack if they attacked with this feature as an action this turn and with extra attacks from the attack action at the same rate as a monk of equivalent level.
They gain the ability to use Psi Points to further enhance these strikes comparable to a Monk spending Ki points.
They might also gain additional abilities related to combat such as being able to cast shield or getting advantage on Constitution saving throw as a reaction using Psi Points.
Mind Diddler
At first level the Mind Diddler gains the Invade Thoughts ability. As a bonus action, the Mind Diddler may target a creature that makes an Intelligence saving throw. On a failed save the Mind Diddler can sense the targets surface thoughts as per the detect thoughts spell. For the duration of the effect, the Mind Diddler gains a bonus to AC against attacks made by the target equal to the Mind Diddler's proficiency bonus and the target has disadvantage on all saving throws imposed by spells and Psion abilities originating from the Mind Diddler. The target makes an Intelligence saving throw at the end of each of it's turns, a successful save ends the effect but does not prevent the Mind Diddler from using this ability against the target again.
They also gain other abilities. One example that comes to mind:
Addlepate: As an action, the Mind Diddler spends two Psi Points to force a creature within 30 feet to make an Intelligence saving throw. On a failed save, the target is stunned until the beginning of the Mind Diddler's next turn. The Mind Diddler may spend additional Psi Points to extend the range of this ability by 30 feet per additional Psi Point spent in this way.
Additional abilities might impose disadvantage on all saving throws for a round, or render the Mind Diddler invisible to the target with the option of spending additional Psi Points to extend the effect to additional creatures being rendered invisible to the target. General debuff and weakening effects, mostly involving saving throws that are potentially weakened by the Invade Thoughts ability if it is in effect.
===
Obviously this is only a beginning and basic framework. You get a subclass specific special ability at first level that is further enhanced or complimented later using a resource comparable to a monk's Ki. The reskinned Pact Magic also grants some flexibility for additional mag- err, Brane PoweRz, that are not "just more spellcasting" because Pact Magic is "not more spellcasting." The game already has one "not just more spellcasting" and we don't need another entirely different system. If you want ways to exert oneself to gain greater effects, that can be worked into the Psi Points abilities.
Yes, this is a mashup of three existing features from three different existing classes. But it does result in something that is overall different.
This is a good idea as long as it is by numbers of dice rather than the die themselves. Otherwise you have Barbarians being the best psykers in the multiverse.
I mean, man to angry to die uses his intense will power to mentally beat stuffing out of you, doesn't seem to out of the realm of psionics if I'm honest.
One thing I liked a lot (and am still very salty it was killed) was The Psionic Talent die in one of the pre-Tasha's UA's. I felt that was a very good starting point for a psionics system. (It did lead to the Psionic Energy dice pool, which is...a decent starting point, but one that I feel needs more work...)
I really agree with you there, the Psi Die was really neat, mechanically it was interesting, flavourful, and truly different from other options. Honestly it felt like the kind of concept you could build a class around, in much the same vein as say Warlocks being built around invocations, or Monks around Ki.
Frankly if I had more time in this moment I might try work out a basic guide for such a class.
I'm a little confused as to why Pact Magic needs to be involved with the whole process? The entire objection to "Just Reflavor Stuff!" is that burning spell slots to bellow magic words and fish in your component pouch for a bunch of eye of newt doesn't even slightly give the proper play feel of a psychic character. I understand your objection to 'reinventing the wheel' - if a spell does, broadly, what the psychic effect in question is supposed to do, why not use the rules for the spell? That seems to be the big hang-up between "PSYCHIC CHARACTERS ARE FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT FROM MAGIC USERS" and "PSYCHIC CHARACTERS ARE LITERALLY JUST USING THEIR BRAINS TO DO MAGIC INSTEAD OF THEIR WIZARD BEARDS" - the latter camp wants to know why a psychic character can't just use spells that give the effects they want and do the spellcasting rules to do it, ne?
Well, for one, most "psychic" spells are extremely bad. Let's look at a classic, Detect Thoughts. Detect Thoughts is often held up as a perfectly adequate "You're a psychic guy who reads minds!" spell and literally the only thing a 'Psychic' character needs. So. What does Detect Thoughts do?
It...requires you to be within Thrown Sandwich distance of the target - thirty feet is nothing. It requires you to be able to clearly see your target, meaning you cannot use it from cover or concealment, such as being in the next room. It requires you to scream Magic Words at the top of your lungs, waggle your fingers in an intricate magical gesture, and dig into your component pouch - note, not your wallet, SPECIFICALLY your component pouch - for a copper piece. Which is admittedly at least a very mildly amusing joke, but still. And for this effort, you get...what most DMs would give you with a basic, low DC Insight check. The NPC's general mood, what it's daydreaming about, and how likely it is that what it's daydreaming about is how weird it was that Justin Bieber was ever popular. Try to get more? The NPC immediately knows everything about you, knows that you specifically are attempting to read its brain no matter what obfuscating measures you take. It knows your thoughts and emotions. It knows your name, your address, your political stance and sexual orientation. It knows the names of your party members, the names of your family, and the names of every single person who's ever spoken to you even if those people never gave you their names. It knows your class level, your stats, your current and maximum HP, and the class levels, stats, and current/maximum HP of your entire party. It knows when you were born, and it knows when you will die - and all of that even if it fails its save. If it succeeds, it gets all of that whilst simultaneously locking its mind down like an impenetrable fortress and shutting you out so hard you'll never be able to cast Detect Thoughts again.
Detect Thoughts is a terrible spell that's hedged around so severely it's a miracle the spell is ever useful at all. It's usually a testament to the ingenuity of the player more than the strength of the spell when Detect Thoughts doesn't immediately get your party thrown out of town. And yes, that's going to get everybody snapping and snarling "So you're just asking for unreasonable power creep, then?"
No. What I'm saying is that many of the spells people assume are "perfectly fine" for Psychic Characters are designed quite poorly and would require rework to be useful for anyone, let alone a character for whom those spells are their only class features. A wizard doesn't care that Detect Thoughts is a godawful trap of a spell; it just doesn't bother wasting a spell learned on it and takes something useful instead. Psychic characters don't get that luxury, though.
That being said, I'm not necessarily opposed to the rebake of Mage Hand that was listed. Ten pounds per level feels a little sketch, but it's not unreasonably sketch and later class features can potentially alter or augment that in different ways I do think it would be better as its own specific feature rather than being attached to the Mage Hand spell, if primarily so that it can be more easily modified to suit the class. After all, adding extensive rules for "Like Mage Hand, except..." isn't really any less cognitive load than "You have an ability called Telekinetic Grasp, which lets you..." You're not really saving any complexity by extensively modifying an existing spell rather than inventing a feature from scratch, all you're doing is assuaging a desire to have psychic characters be subordinate to magic users. That's the other big argument against using spells as "psychic powers" - if you have to continually and constantly modify the spells to act more like the psychic powers they're supposedly emulating, are you really saving any complexity by using heavily modified spells rather than simply inventing new class features someone can get used to, a'la monk?
Still, not at all the worst framework I've seen. I do think it's going to need more than a juiced Mage Hand if it's going to be an entire adventuring class, and there needs to be options for psychic characters that don't want to bother with telekinesis and are looking for mind manipulation instead, but as you said - it's a beginning and a basic framework. Could be a start, and a place to hook the idea of burning Hit Dice into for brief improved effects. Or (sigh) Psionic Talent dice, if we have to stick with the cockamaimy nonsense they shoveled into the Soulknife and Psi Warrior. That stuff legit makes me miss the original Talent Die from the first set of Psychic UA...
I think when it comes to spellcasting for this class, in my head it would be less like the Four Elements Monk and more like the Shadow Monk.
The problem with 4-Elements Monk is that the combat-focused spells are, except in very rare occasions, less impactful than just running up and hitting a guy and saving those ki points for Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike. Shadow Monk, meanwhile, gets spells that are largely useless in combat, but great for infiltration and deception outside of combat. It helps to sell the idea of being a mystical ninja without having to invent a lot of new rules just for the class.
So that's my proposal for this psion class... The class would get access to a very limited number of spells... only ones that really feed into the fantasy of being a psion, and relies more on class features for everything else. Instead of having a super unique version of mage hand, just give them an invisible mage hand they can cast without Vocal or Somatic components (a la the telekinetic feat), then at higher levels they get unique class features to shove and grapple opponents with Mind Power, without needing to attach them to Mage Hand. Once the psion reaches a certain level they get the ability to cast telekinesis, again without components... maybe they can even unlock an "always on" version with the caveat that they can only target objects (similar to a Ring of Telekinesis).
I think Detect Thoughts is perfectly reasonable as it is. I get that it's a high-risk, often low-reward spell, but I think using it creatively and in the right moments really matters. Also... if you probe deeper into a creature's mind, it doesn't learn anything except that you are the one probing deeper... I'm not sure where the idea that they get the benefit of reading your mind right back came from.
<3 Admittedly, this thread has gotten huge... like, not just because it's 5 pages, but we're all really passionate and are writing dissertations for each response.
Haven’t read the entire thread but I always felt that the Rune Knight fighter seemed a good candidate for flavoring as a psionic character. Mentally shackling an opponent (psychic damage instead of fire for fire rune). Charming an opponent, boosting ability checks and saves, etc. I’m not suggesting that is how they develop a psion class or anything.
I really like Yurei’s idea of the telekinetic based awakened mind character. something like the Fire rune restrains similar to Telekinesis but a variation of that could be a step up from the Telekinetic feat without it turning into I just cast a spell (Telekinesis)
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This has me thinking out-of-the-box on another way to approach Psionicists within the bounds of what DnDBeyond Homebrew offer. Ideally it would be nice to create a straight new class but we don't have that. My current draft has them as a Sorcerer subclass. Now I'm thinking about how to work in mechanics if I used the Rogue as a base class. They have the cleanest/most normal core class abilities. I think I can make psionic skill tree, a path to follow as the class levels up. The difference between the Sorcerer and the Rogue is that Sorcerers use the spell mechanics. For Rogues I think it will come with custom actions fueled by psychic energy points to allow for 'punching-above-level'. This may also mean that there would be less variance in the Rogue based Psionicists, whereas the Sorcerer based Psionicist can potentially work on new ways (spells) to harness their power. The Rogue based Psionicist will be a lot of work to define and make but I think it will be a simpler more enjoyable play for players. I feel the more IMAGINATIVE players will be able to make the Rogue based Psionicist sing.
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I might run a playtest with both versions to get comparisons of how game play feels.
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This is a good idea as long as it is by numbers of dice rather than the die themselves. Otherwise you have Barbarians being the best psykers in the multiverse.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I keep reading posts about adding new systems, scaffolding, complexity, etc... followed by we already have spell slots just use that! But I don't understand if anyone is asking for a completely new system, scaffolding etc, added. There are plenty of classes already that basically have systems in place that a Psionic class can take inspiration. Artificers have infusions, warlocks have invocations, other classes have built in features they get at certain levels.
Couldn't the Psionicist basically get a 1st level feature based on the Telekinetic Feat (you can move or manipulate objects, up to 20 pounds, within 60', and can attempt to shove a creature 5' against an opposed STR check). Then at level 5 the weight limit increases to 50 pounds (or whatever you like) and you can manipulate a weapon and make an attack with it, using INT up to 30' away from you. Level 9 you can add more weight, further shove or push/pull feature. Add one or two more features to the base 1st level telekinetic power.
Add in additional powers that you can learn (similar to invocations) that can modify the telekinetic power (like agonizing blast, repelling blast, etc does for Eldritch Blast) or ones that allow you to manipulate a creature's mind (advantage on CHA skill checks or can use INT instead of CHA, Charmed effect, Frightened effect, etc.) Defensive powers (use your mind to throw up a defense to add +2 to AC or deflect an attack away from you or redirect it to another creature. Things like that. You pick X number of powers (a small amount, some with level requirements if they are more powerful.
A subclass could focus on the weapon attacking feature of the Telekinetic power. Gain Medium armor and shield proficiency, can use the telekinetic weapon attack as a bonus action using INT, leaving their action for attacking or other subclass powers.
None of this would require a "new" system or anything and is no more complex than any other class, really.
And as far as comments about psionic powers that magic already does so why bother? Well, the same could be said for many class features in this game. Wizards can pretty much do, via spells, what most everyone else can do already, so it isn't much of an argument against a psionic class.
This is just my two cents and I'm sure much of it isn't what psionic class proponents are looking for, but it was just a thought.
There are other ideas for subclasses in this thread that could be fleshed out.
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Yes some of us are asking for a new system. Yurei is by far the most vocal in this but she is not alone. I played a number of psionic characters in 2&3e and the “new” magic based “psionic” subclasses (especially the aberrant sorceror) just don’t have the same feel. The sorceror, as described, feels far more like a far realm patron warlock than an old school psion. The others work but I’m not a huge fan of them (on the other hand I wasn’t a great fan of them in 2/3e either) I’ve got a thread started in the homebrew section for those interested in helping to design a solid system but it’s very much an early work in progress.
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I think we all have played the Aberrant Mind Sorcerer. It's ok. But I see it more as mind magic as opposed to pure psionic power.
I did have fun with the Aberrant Mind Sorcerer. The problem for me is they get spent doing trivial RP level things that I expect a psionicist can handle more easily. So when it comes time for the Aberrant Mind Sorcerer to battle, I've got nothing left to contribute. Mage Hand is not enough and Telekinesis is high level (aka "too draining")...there's no good in between.
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Have you tried the UA psionicist wizard subclass? The aberrant mind isn't meant to represent the archetypal psion.
Yes. I have tried the "School of Psionics" wizard. It did not, at all, feel like a psychic character. It felt like a normal ordinary everyday wizard who was, for whichever weird reason, cosplaying a psychic character. There was nothing 'psychic' about it., which is probably why it died even though it wasn't mechanically awful. It simply did not feel right. Because, and I will repeat this again...
R.E.F.LA.V.O.R.I.N.G...I.S...N.O.T...A.L.W.A.Y.S...S.U.F.F.I.C.I.E.N.T.
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One of the reasons I enjoy being part of this passtime is the way we are inclined to try to fix problems by homebrewing answers. To my mind this has become a productive conversation, and I'd like to add to it. I'd like to add to it by saying that an important feature of classes in D&D is that they fill narrative roles as well as mechanical ones.
Fighters exist not only because there is a mechanical reason to have a tanky character who doesn't need to spend resources to contribute damage in combat, but also because we want to tell stories about mighty and impressive warriors who may or may not have a code and who become interesting characters by exploring their relationships with violence. I sympathize with complaints about the Mystic from a mechanical standpoint, but the reason I still use the class is that it does manage to fill some narrative roles that I want for the game world. Namely, you get to play a psychic detective if you take the Order of the Awakened.
I'm sure there are any number of ways that the rules could portray this role. Because psionic powers are so unsupported I've been considering whether taking that character idea and creating a diviner wizard would get me close enough. I do tend to come down on the side that says, "no, there's an essential something missing even if I can take the read thoughts spell." I tried homebrewing a psion, but all I was doing was porting 3.5e's take into 5e. A link earlier in this thread lead to a psion which used a stress mechanic to represent the physical toll of manifesting. That's something that's inspiring, although that version specifically didn't connect to the existing exhaustion mechanic, which I found obtuse.
Another interesting thought this conversation sparked for me is that there may be nothing wrong with combining magic and psionics in a messy, organic way. Sure, there's a distinction to be made between psionic perception of thoughts and the read thoughts spell, but that distinction can cut both ways. If we put ourselves in a place where we can't justify giving a pyrokineticist the ability to create balls of fire, we haven't gained.
Okay, I"l grant you that, but I'll also point out that a lot of the monk's abilities are pretty direct equivalents of "just more spellcasting" in their actual effects. In the interests of fairness, I'll spitball a very rough draft for such a class here and you tell me if I'm closer to what you're suggesting.
And I'll point out right up front that at least one specific example of a class based ability that such a notional class can always use without restriction you suggested in a previous post (telekinesis) is indeed, objectively and without question way too much of an ask. Yes, a fifth level spell at will is ridiculous. And I'm building this around what's basically a reworked Warlock because upon actually thinking about it, that seems a better model than the Monk. That means reflavoring invocations and Pact Magic with a class specific spell list rather than using the same magic system every other spellcaster does and that's as far as you're going to get from me for Not Majik.
Notional class: Psion
Hit die: d8
Proficiency with simple weapons and no armor.
Proficiency with 2 skills selected from Arcana, Insight, Investigation, Perception, and Persuasion.
So let's start by taking a page from the Warlock and give this Psion base class a boosted cantrip in the form of mage hand. The Psion gets it automatically and they get the benefits of the Arcane Trickster's Ranged Legerdemain feature at first level (it's invisible and you can manipulate objects and tools with it). Additionally, the weight that can be lifted with it scales at 10 pounds per Psion level. At fifth level the range increases to 60 feet and the Psion can use an action with it to make a shove attack or grapple check using their Intelligence modifier at disadvantage. At eleventh level the range increases to 90 feet and shove attacks, grapple checks, are normal and they get the Extra Attack feature with it. At seventeenth level the shove attacks and grapple checks get advantage.
The Psion also learns a second cantrip and gets more at the same progression of a Warlock. Their spellcasting ablity is Intelligence for any cantrips granted by this class.
At first level the Psion gets Psionic Defense, adding their intelligence modifier to AC if they are not wearing armor.
At first level the Psion also gets Psionic Magic, which is literally Pact Magic with a different spell list using Intelligence instead of Charisma. Same number of spells known and spell slots which are replenished on short rests. Spell list focuses on things that are either mind affecting, based on extrasensory perception, telekinesis type effects , and interacting with magic because like it or not we're still using actual magic rules since they already exist. I'm not going to make up a full list right now but things like magic missile, bigby's hand, charm [x], detect thoughts, detect magic, counterspell, dispel magic, shield, see invisibility, scrying, hold monster, dream, wall of force, fear, speak with dead, locate creature/object.
At second level the Psion gets Psionic Talents. Same rules and progression as Eldritch Invocations. In fact, quite a few are just going to be copy-pasted Invocations plus some others specific to the Psion. Examples of existing Invocations that would work are Ascendent Step, Aspect of the Moon, Beast Speech, Beguiling Influence, Cloak of Flies (call it something else and it deals psychic damage instead of poison), Devil's Sight, Eldritch Mind, Eldritch Sight, and a bunch of others. Just rename them with some minor changes any Charisma dependent effects using Intelligence instead and possibly some damage to psychic or (maybe) force. An example of a Psion specific Talent might be the ability to cast shield a number of times equal to proficiency bonus, either recharging on a long rest or short rest but requiring a specific combat focused subclass.
At third level they get subclasses. A combat focused one can gain the ability to use mage hand to wield a melee weapon and/or deal unarmed strike damage comparable to a monk's Martial Art's damage, including the bonus action extra strike without the weapon and gaining extra attack with it at some point and able to apply combat focused Psionic Talents to it comparable to Warlock Invocations that enhance eldritch blast. A mindf***er variant can get the ability to cast detect thoughts at will and enhanced abilities for mind affecting effects in general such as advantage against charm effects and being able to impose disadvantage on such a number of times equal to proficiency bonus recharging on short rests, with synergies from using Charisma based abilities. A third seer type subclass can focus on extrasensory perception with Wisdom based synergies and bonuses around divinations plus some defensive abilities, and maybe with an ability to grant allies advantages on attacks by giving them flashes of insight (again prof bonus/short rest recharge).
Obviously this is incomplete but I've already spent a good deal of time thinking about this. Does this sound more like what you're advocating?
Flush, I don't want to be rude and I hope I don't come off that way, but I don't think you're understanding what Yurei and other folks have been saying in this thread. Spells just aren't going to cut it, and spellcasting, for us, is just too flawed of a vehicle to use.
One thing I liked a lot (and am still very salty it was killed) was The Psionic Talent die in one of the pre-Tasha's UA's. I felt that was a very good starting point for a psionics system. (It did lead to the Psionic Energy dice pool, which is...a decent starting point, but one that I feel needs more work...)
And I think that if what Yurei and other folks want is an entirely new set of rules for Brane PoweRz that are explicitly Not Majik they're going to continue to be disappointed because it's not going to happen.
Edit: As an alternative class model, keep the beefed up mage hand and Int based Pact Magic, lose the invocations and replace that with reskinned Sorcery Points and metamagic, and give it subclasses at first level with a progression of features mechanically comparable to Cleric Domains. If you want "something like Ki Points but for Brane PoweRz," you can use the Foure Elements Monk as a model. When's the last time you heard somebody talk about how much they love that subclass?
A further elaboration on my second idea. Keeping the Intelligence based Pact Magic and replacing Invocations with Psi Points. Psi Point pool is equivalent to a Sorcerer's Sorcery Points, can be used for the same metamagic effects, and replenish on a short rest. Psion still gets Psionic Defense (Int mod bonus to AC as long as they are not wearing armor). Psion still gets the improved mage hand described above. They get subclasses at first level. Each subclass grants a specific ability at first level and additional features related to this at later levels, including but not limited to additional ways to spend Psi Points. Two rough draft ideas for subclasses follow.
Brain Puncher
At first level the Brain Puncher gains the ability to use their mage hand to make unarmed strikes. These strikes deal damage equivalent to a Monk's Martial Arts feature at the same level, including the bonus action extra attack if they attacked with this feature as an action this turn and with extra attacks from the attack action at the same rate as a monk of equivalent level.
They gain the ability to use Psi Points to further enhance these strikes comparable to a Monk spending Ki points.
They might also gain additional abilities related to combat such as being able to cast shield or getting advantage on Constitution saving throw as a reaction using Psi Points.
Mind Diddler
At first level the Mind Diddler gains the Invade Thoughts ability. As a bonus action, the Mind Diddler may target a creature that makes an Intelligence saving throw. On a failed save the Mind Diddler can sense the targets surface thoughts as per the detect thoughts spell. For the duration of the effect, the Mind Diddler gains a bonus to AC against attacks made by the target equal to the Mind Diddler's proficiency bonus and the target has disadvantage on all saving throws imposed by spells and Psion abilities originating from the Mind Diddler. The target makes an Intelligence saving throw at the end of each of it's turns, a successful save ends the effect but does not prevent the Mind Diddler from using this ability against the target again.
They also gain other abilities. One example that comes to mind:
Addlepate: As an action, the Mind Diddler spends two Psi Points to force a creature within 30 feet to make an Intelligence saving throw. On a failed save, the target is stunned until the beginning of the Mind Diddler's next turn. The Mind Diddler may spend additional Psi Points to extend the range of this ability by 30 feet per additional Psi Point spent in this way.
Additional abilities might impose disadvantage on all saving throws for a round, or render the Mind Diddler invisible to the target with the option of spending additional Psi Points to extend the effect to additional creatures being rendered invisible to the target. General debuff and weakening effects, mostly involving saving throws that are potentially weakened by the Invade Thoughts ability if it is in effect.
===
Obviously this is only a beginning and basic framework. You get a subclass specific special ability at first level that is further enhanced or complimented later using a resource comparable to a monk's Ki. The reskinned Pact Magic also grants some flexibility for additional mag- err, Brane PoweRz, that are not "just more spellcasting" because Pact Magic is "not more spellcasting." The game already has one "not just more spellcasting" and we don't need another entirely different system. If you want ways to exert oneself to gain greater effects, that can be worked into the Psi Points abilities.
Yes, this is a mashup of three existing features from three different existing classes. But it does result in something that is overall different.
I mean, man to angry to die uses his intense will power to mentally beat stuffing out of you, doesn't seem to out of the realm of psionics if I'm honest.
I really agree with you there, the Psi Die was really neat, mechanically it was interesting, flavourful, and truly different from other options. Honestly it felt like the kind of concept you could build a class around, in much the same vein as say Warlocks being built around invocations, or Monks around Ki.
Frankly if I had more time in this moment I might try work out a basic guide for such a class.
I'm a little confused as to why Pact Magic needs to be involved with the whole process? The entire objection to "Just Reflavor Stuff!" is that burning spell slots to bellow magic words and fish in your component pouch for a bunch of eye of newt doesn't even slightly give the proper play feel of a psychic character. I understand your objection to 'reinventing the wheel' - if a spell does, broadly, what the psychic effect in question is supposed to do, why not use the rules for the spell? That seems to be the big hang-up between "PSYCHIC CHARACTERS ARE FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT FROM MAGIC USERS" and "PSYCHIC CHARACTERS ARE LITERALLY JUST USING THEIR BRAINS TO DO MAGIC INSTEAD OF THEIR WIZARD BEARDS" - the latter camp wants to know why a psychic character can't just use spells that give the effects they want and do the spellcasting rules to do it, ne?
Well, for one, most "psychic" spells are extremely bad. Let's look at a classic, Detect Thoughts. Detect Thoughts is often held up as a perfectly adequate "You're a psychic guy who reads minds!" spell and literally the only thing a 'Psychic' character needs. So. What does Detect Thoughts do?
It...requires you to be within Thrown Sandwich distance of the target - thirty feet is nothing. It requires you to be able to clearly see your target, meaning you cannot use it from cover or concealment, such as being in the next room. It requires you to scream Magic Words at the top of your lungs, waggle your fingers in an intricate magical gesture, and dig into your component pouch - note, not your wallet, SPECIFICALLY your component pouch - for a copper piece. Which is admittedly at least a very mildly amusing joke, but still. And for this effort, you get...what most DMs would give you with a basic, low DC Insight check. The NPC's general mood, what it's daydreaming about, and how likely it is that what it's daydreaming about is how weird it was that Justin Bieber was ever popular. Try to get more? The NPC immediately knows everything about you, knows that you specifically are attempting to read its brain no matter what obfuscating measures you take. It knows your thoughts and emotions. It knows your name, your address, your political stance and sexual orientation. It knows the names of your party members, the names of your family, and the names of every single person who's ever spoken to you even if those people never gave you their names. It knows your class level, your stats, your current and maximum HP, and the class levels, stats, and current/maximum HP of your entire party. It knows when you were born, and it knows when you will die - and all of that even if it fails its save. If it succeeds, it gets all of that whilst simultaneously locking its mind down like an impenetrable fortress and shutting you out so hard you'll never be able to cast Detect Thoughts again.
Detect Thoughts is a terrible spell that's hedged around so severely it's a miracle the spell is ever useful at all. It's usually a testament to the ingenuity of the player more than the strength of the spell when Detect Thoughts doesn't immediately get your party thrown out of town. And yes, that's going to get everybody snapping and snarling "So you're just asking for unreasonable power creep, then?"
No. What I'm saying is that many of the spells people assume are "perfectly fine" for Psychic Characters are designed quite poorly and would require rework to be useful for anyone, let alone a character for whom those spells are their only class features. A wizard doesn't care that Detect Thoughts is a godawful trap of a spell; it just doesn't bother wasting a spell learned on it and takes something useful instead. Psychic characters don't get that luxury, though.
That being said, I'm not necessarily opposed to the rebake of Mage Hand that was listed. Ten pounds per level feels a little sketch, but it's not unreasonably sketch and later class features can potentially alter or augment that in different ways I do think it would be better as its own specific feature rather than being attached to the Mage Hand spell, if primarily so that it can be more easily modified to suit the class. After all, adding extensive rules for "Like Mage Hand, except..." isn't really any less cognitive load than "You have an ability called Telekinetic Grasp, which lets you..." You're not really saving any complexity by extensively modifying an existing spell rather than inventing a feature from scratch, all you're doing is assuaging a desire to have psychic characters be subordinate to magic users. That's the other big argument against using spells as "psychic powers" - if you have to continually and constantly modify the spells to act more like the psychic powers they're supposedly emulating, are you really saving any complexity by using heavily modified spells rather than simply inventing new class features someone can get used to, a'la monk?
Still, not at all the worst framework I've seen. I do think it's going to need more than a juiced Mage Hand if it's going to be an entire adventuring class, and there needs to be options for psychic characters that don't want to bother with telekinesis and are looking for mind manipulation instead, but as you said - it's a beginning and a basic framework. Could be a start, and a place to hook the idea of burning Hit Dice into for brief improved effects. Or (sigh) Psionic Talent dice, if we have to stick with the cockamaimy nonsense they shoveled into the Soulknife and Psi Warrior. That stuff legit makes me miss the original Talent Die from the first set of Psychic UA...
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I think when it comes to spellcasting for this class, in my head it would be less like the Four Elements Monk and more like the Shadow Monk.
The problem with 4-Elements Monk is that the combat-focused spells are, except in very rare occasions, less impactful than just running up and hitting a guy and saving those ki points for Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike. Shadow Monk, meanwhile, gets spells that are largely useless in combat, but great for infiltration and deception outside of combat. It helps to sell the idea of being a mystical ninja without having to invent a lot of new rules just for the class.
So that's my proposal for this psion class... The class would get access to a very limited number of spells... only ones that really feed into the fantasy of being a psion, and relies more on class features for everything else. Instead of having a super unique version of mage hand, just give them an invisible mage hand they can cast without Vocal or Somatic components (a la the telekinetic feat), then at higher levels they get unique class features to shove and grapple opponents with Mind Power, without needing to attach them to Mage Hand. Once the psion reaches a certain level they get the ability to cast telekinesis, again without components... maybe they can even unlock an "always on" version with the caveat that they can only target objects (similar to a Ring of Telekinesis).
I think Detect Thoughts is perfectly reasonable as it is. I get that it's a high-risk, often low-reward spell, but I think using it creatively and in the right moments really matters. Also... if you probe deeper into a creature's mind, it doesn't learn anything except that you are the one probing deeper... I'm not sure where the idea that they get the benefit of reading your mind right back came from.
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