Now. here's the kicker: would any of you ever let this into your party? No Fireballs, no Counterspells or Dispel Magics, no Invisibility, no Hypnotic Pattern - nada.
Well, yes, if you don't choose to take any of those abilities, you don't have them. I could justify any of those spells on a psychic. Even fireball (Firestarter).
Now, if you want to be a pure telekinetic, sure, it's hard to do a specialist in D&D, but that has nothing to do with psionics per se, it's just that it's hard to do a specialist in D&D.
Reflavoring the text of spells though doesn't make the class psionic (not to mention due to RAW, you either have to have a forgiving DM or you really are just a worse sorcerer, because RAW counterspell still works in most situations, unless you do things RAI and again thats at the whim of your DM).
Again for those of you arguing against psionics in general (or just saying to reflavor spellcasting) I don't see what would be wrong on gettnig an extra class or at least reflavoring more subclasses that could be built to do enough things to make it be more friendly (as in now the mystica arcana UA class). Yurei already provided a few things that could be thrown in there, they could just do a tweak off the Warlock class somehow to use that as a partial setup (mechanically taking the evocations to contribute to your psionics).
I mean again the thought of a Psionic Monk is something I find intriguing, a Psionic Barbarian (who when raging there mind enhances things due to there mind raging with them), the list could go on of things they could do if they are not going to just give us a new class that can work that way (although I know most would prefer to have the class).
Edited because I didn't realize the word I used would show up like that, didn't figure it would have been that bad.
A Psion class could be as simple as the fighter/Warlock hybrid (obviously way different, but just as simple), but with a “choose your own class features” mechanic and not need to “duplicate the whole spell list” like some folks are claiming. A Psionicist doesn’t need to be complicated, just mechanically different from Spellcasting.
I am definitely in the camp that just about anything can be accomplished with reflavoring, and most ideas for new classes I see suggested often feel like they would work better as just a subclass. But still, I can't stop thinking about this idea for a telepath class... one which relies on telekinetic abilities to attack and defend themselves, and has a lot of classic psychic abilities hard baked into them. You could probably make this concept a subclass of some kind... but it would be pretty hard. I don't think there's an obvious analogue, since it's very specifically an idea that isn't a spellcaster, but also a class that wouldn't work as a martial class either. I might work on this as a homebrew and see if I can come up with anything, or if the whole thing falls apart once you try to actually apply it to the game.
I am definitely in the camp that just about anything can be accomplished with reflavoring, and most ideas for new classes I see suggested often feel like they would work better as just a subclass. But still, I can't stop thinking about this idea for a telepath class... one which relies on telekinetic abilities to attack and defend themselves, and has a lot of classic psychic abilities hard baked into them. You could probably make this concept a subclass of some kind... but it would be pretty hard. I don't think there's an obvious analogue, since it's very specifically an idea that isn't a spellcaster, but also a class that wouldn't work as a martial class either. I might work on this as a homebrew and see if I can come up with anything, or if the whole thing falls apart once you try to actually apply it to the game.
I mean that's my problem, is the fact that the idea Yurei presented does just seem that it could be riffed into some unique class and it could be lots of fun.
Now I will admit I'm openly biased about wanting this to be a class. If they turn it into a class than I can pull off homebrews on this site with the class and that's because my group uses this site heavily for the way we play now (which leaves me constantly needing to add things, or homebrew this thing here, etc) and based off how this site works, the homebrew system has its limits (I also understand why they don't rig the system to just be able to homebrew classes). Now sure I could homebrew this stuff, consulting with the alternate DM to make sure it would be acceptable in either one of our "worlds"... but that would require me to build it on paper and not be able to use the app... which is something that we've grown used to.
WebDM is coming out with a psionics class in their Weird Wastelands kickstarter book. I am really looking forward to their take on it before I take a serious shot at making my own class for it in my home games.
1) a properly designed and balanced psion is not going to have unlimited higher powered abilities it’s unbalanced. That means you either use a straight points system or you use a leveled system like spell slots - if you hate the term spell slots I can understand, perhaps calling them power potentials or something can make them easier to swallow.
2) yes you can reflavor a lot and for many that will be enough. For Yurei ( obviously) and some of the rest of us that isn’t enough. Please stop telling us it is - we get that for you it is, do you get that for us it isn’t? Further if reflavoring is fine for you, why are staying in the discussion and trying to tell those of us that disagree that we are wrong and should just get over it. We aren’t going to and that part of the discussion probably needs to end.
3) it’s clear to me, at least, that WOTC has no intention of coming up with anything resembling an independent psionics mechanic anytime before 7e it’s time for those of us that want such a thing to design our own - either individually or as a group - so after I post this I’ll open up a thread in the homebrew for those who want to design one we can all use.
4) the 2e, 3e, and even 4e psionics books have a well over 200 mostly non spell mimic abilities that could be updated to 5e very easily especially if uprating of powers is allowed (as it should be). So for those that don’t want spell duplicates I recommend getting a copy (digital or Hard copy) and take a stab or three at working out some sequences or subclasses.
Psionics as abilities separate and distinct from "Magic" needlessly complicates the simplified rules design philosophy of 5e.
The things that a psion could do socially with powers are just as easily represented by creating new "Psionic Spells" ala Chronurgy and Graviturgy in the Wildemount book and making them only accessible to the Aberrant Mind / whatever you deem as "psionic"
The fact that they are "spells" vs "special snowflake powers" doesn't make a difference mechanically. As the DM / Player just flavor it however you want. You are an aberrant mind whose "spells" come from some crazy mental abilities that you starved yourself on top of a mountain to get. Great. You are an aberrant mind whose "spells" come from a Mind Flayer putting a tadpole in your brain stem. Also great. Mechanically there is and should not be zero difference between those two characters though.
It would complicate some of the rules but not necessarily "needlessly".
Psychic powers are different, and should feel and act in a way different from magic. Limiting psychic abilities to spells of a certain subclass doesn't cut it.
The major problem I have with making psychic powers the same as magic is that it limits them to the spell rules - Counterspell and Antimagic Field being the prime offenders. Psychic powers are not magic so should be affected by such effects. By the same token Tower of Iron Will should not stop magic.
I feel that psychic powers should be available to everybody regardless of class, maybe as a subclass or Feat. Another reason (multi-class) they should not be magic, is that using the same spell slots to power spells and psychic powers doesn't make sense.
I agree that it would complicate the 5e attempt at streamlining.
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Psionics as abilities separate and distinct from "Magic" needlessly complicates the simplified rules design philosophy of 5e.
The things that a psion could do socially with powers are just as easily represented by creating new "Psionic Spells" ala Chronurgy and Graviturgy in the Wildemount book and making them only accessible to the Aberrant Mind / whatever you deem as "psionic"
The fact that they are "spells" vs "special snowflake powers" doesn't make a difference mechanically. As the DM / Player just flavor it however you want. You are an aberrant mind whose "spells" come from some crazy mental abilities that you starved yourself on top of a mountain to get. Great. You are an aberrant mind whose "spells" come from a Mind Flayer putting a tadpole in your brain stem. Also great. Mechanically there is and should not be zero difference between those two characters though.
It would complicate some of the rules but not necessarily "needlessly".
Psychic powers are different, and should feel and act in a way different from magic. Limiting psychic abilities to spells of a certain subclass doesn't cut it.
The major problem I have with making psychic powers the same as magic is that it limits them to the spell rules - Counterspell and Antimagic Field being the prime offenders. Psychic powers are not magic so should be affected by such effects. By the same token Tower of Iron Will should not stop magic.
I feel that psychic powers should be available to everybody regardless of class, maybe as a subclass or Feat. Another reason (multi-class) they should not be magic, is that using the same spell slots to power spells and psychic powers doesn't make sense.
I agree that it would complicate the 5e attempt at streamlining.
I disagree that it would necessarily have to complicate things. I certainly could complicate things if implemented in a complicated way, but it doesn’t have to be complicated. After all, counterspell doesn’t affect Action Surge, Second Wind, Sneak Attack, Evasion, Ki powers, Rage, or any number of other Features. Why should that be any different for Psionics? There are literally class & subclass features already in 5e that could very easily have been reflavored and called “Psionic Powers.” Why couldn’t they make a class that simply had a list of psionic features that the player picks the way a spellcaster player picks spells? Why should it have to be any more complicated than that? Why would it have to be complicated by default when it doesn’t have to be?
Could Psionics be complicated? Yes. Could it be “too complicated for 5e?” Judging by the fate of the Mystic, yes. Does it have to be? No, not at all.
HAI everybody...this thread got my attention because I'm a big fan of psionics.
I kind of shoe horned a psionics system with the Sorcerer class since we can't really homebrew our own class in DnDBeyond only subclasses. I still need to playtest it with a group and get feedback. Essentially I'm leveraging the Sorcerer's meta-magic mechanic to act as supplementary Psionic Energy points to use powers. The framework is similar to how 2e presented it in the Complete Psionicists Handbook where a psionicist can focus on Disciplines.
The number of 'spells' or powers is very limited but the Psionic Energy points allow a character to do more extraordinary things with that power. I tried to balance powersets with a spreadsheet Psionic Power Balancing spreadsheet
The link to my Homebrewed Psionicist subclass is Psionicist Subclass You will also need to add the appropriate discipline powers which can be found in Homebrewed Spells. I typically precede a power's name by its major discipline so it can stand out from the plethora of magic spells out there.
HAI everybody...this thread got my attention because I'm a big fan of psionics.
I kind of shoe horned a psionics system with the Sorcerer class since we can't really homebrew our own class in DnDBeyond only subclasses. I still need to playtest it with a group and get feedback. Essentially I'm leveraging the Sorcerer's meta-magic mechanic to act as supplementary Psionic Energy points to use powers. The framework is similar to how 2e presented it in the Complete Psionicists Handbook where a psionicist can focus on Disciplines.
The number of 'spells' or powers is very limited but the Psionic Energy points allow a character to do more extraordinary things with that power. I tried to balance powersets with a spreadsheet Psionic Power Balancing spreadsheet
The link to my Homebrewed Psionicist subclass is Psionicist Subclass You will also need to add the appropriate discipline powers which can be found in Homebrewed Spells. I typically precede a power's name by its major discipline so it can stand out from the plethora of magic spells out there.
I've only played the class as a DM NPC and so far upto level 6 it feels decent and not over or underpowered. It would be nice to get others' feedback trying it out in actual gameplay.
So, I've been going through the old Psionics stuff. Mostly skimming and making lists, but want to point out some stuff I've found.
To start, D&D has a history of being poorly named and constructed. Dexterity is not how bouncy you are. It's hand eye coordination, so dodging a lightning bolt shouldn't use it. The "Fighting-Man" or "Fighter" (my favourite class) is a capital S T U P I D name for a class when compared to other more evocative names like... wizard, cleric, thief, paladin, druid, monk. Why isn't the monk who fights people a fighting man? The Paladin is a fighting man, but we don't call him that.
I call out the foibles, because you need to maintain some of the stupidity for it to be D&D. Psions need to retain some of their stupid to be psions. And having skimmed OD&D's Eldritch Wizardry, AD&D's PHB Apendix I, 2E's ridiculously bloated Psionics Handbook, and 3E's Psionics Handbook, I can point out that these problems are not new. ESP and Clairvoyance were OD&D wizard spells before Eldritch Wizardry hit print.
AD&D said, "Hey, here's how to use this nearly impossible to get extra power."
Up through 2E, what made psions hard was the system for psionic combat because it wasn't turn based like literally everything else. You crammed in an entire extra system at the start of a book for a very unlikely scenareo which causes the game to screech to a hault until one psion whips another.
Then 3E comes along and spends like 6 pages describing the new Psion... and 4.5 pages describing the Psychic Warrior, Soul Knife, and Wilder combined.
I also don't buy that you can't fit the Mystic in complexity when you can fit the warlock. The warlock is dummy complex for funzies. And since everything in all of D&D hits AC with an attack roll, or makes the enemy make a saving throw, there's no reason why they couldn't make effectively the Sorcerer B which only uses its points and has a lot of class exclusive spells.
I'm with Yurei, that the Wizard shouldn't get psionic magic. Just cut it from everyone else's list and give Sorcerer B some warlock invocations and no spell slots. Done.
Complaining that psionics doesn't work like magic is like complaining that the D&D monk should be Naruto. It's a fictional ability transcribed into the rules of the game vs an entirely different and completely unrelated bit of pop culture. Psionics were awkwardly shoehorned into the game for no reason other than psychic abilities were popular in the early 80s. There isn't a correct way to do psionics anymore than there's a correct flavor for magenta Kool-Aid.
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If psionics is just a flavor of magic then what is the point? If it’s present it should be something different, that’s really the point of it. What doesn’t fit is that it should be rare - maybe by requiring Int, wis,& Cha to all be 13+. While that wouldn’t actually affect its frequency as a character it would sort of establish it as relatively rare in the population at large. You could then use the stat bonuses as a base for power points - Int bonus at L1, + Wis bonus at L2, +Cha bonus at L3 then stat boosts as normal with additional points at selected levels or 1 or 2 points per level.
The point is that there is no point. You're suggesting adding a bunch of overly complex junk to clutter up the rules just to do the same damn thing that magic already does,
Okay. Let me make this unambiguously crystal clear to everybody, so I stop having to field this dumb response.
My issue with the whole "psychic powers should just beconsidered MAGIC because 5e!" thing is that currently, the Venn diagram of "Magic" vs "Psychic Abilities" looks like this:
Got it?
Good.
Now, tell me - who in their right mind would voluntarily play a psychic character given that the above diagram is true? You're giving up the vast majority of what makes a spellcaster fun, and in return you get to play...a strictly worse spellcaster. With absolutely nothing to show for taking ninety percent of your class's spell list and chucking it in the garbage. yes, sure, some people will still do it because They Wanna(C) and they don't care if their character is any good, simply that it's sticking to a theme. Not all of us are so blessed that we can tolerate intentionally making actively terrible characters just to try and live up to cool ideas in our head.
Tell me. Why would anyone play a psychic character in the above diagram. Why would you play one?
So your complaint here appears to not have anything to do with "adding psionics" to the game. You just want more psychic themed/flavored spells. Aside from the question of "what Brane PowRz are not already represented by existing spells?" all you seem to be complaining about is the wish for more such spells.
Nobody playing a psychic character wants to do it by casting spells. People do that because they have to, not because it's a great and splendid way to make the character. Transmorpher went even further than I did and I love it - don't even call the Kineticist's abilities the Telekinesis spell. They have telekinetic powers beyond and above what that one spell can provide, but they don't get to also cast Fireball, or Speak with Plants, or Resurrection, or Polymorph, or whatever else of its 400+ options a wizard decides to haul along that day.
This theoretical Kineticist is not a spellcaster. It's closer to a monk than it is to a sorcerer, and also closer to a warlock than it is to a sorcerer. A Morlock, if you will. Except no, bad, don't do that.
So now you apparently do want your Brane PoweRz to be a completely different system that accomplishes the same kinds of effects that can be done with magic but requires extra rules because it's Not Majik.
The "compelling reason" to avoid using the Spellcaster framework is if your "psychic" character uses spell slots and spell mechanics to cast spells, they're a spellcaster.
...
It's not like psychic abilities are alien to the system; illithids have been Mind Blasting folks for decades, the game has a long and storied history of psychically active monsters. PCs are just not allowed to be psychically active for some unfathomable reason unless they accomplish it by being f@#$ing spellcasters. At which point the character does not FEEL like an awakened mind. It does not PLAY like an awakened mind. It does not ACT like an awakened mind, It feels, plays, and acts like a basic boring bog-standard spellcaster.
Reflavoring is insufficient.
So you once again are asserting that Brane PoweRz should absolutely be Not Majik with extra rules.
Illithids and other psionic-themed monsters have been in the game without the need for a completely separate set of additional rules for Brane PoweRz that are explicitly Not Majik. They just get an extra line in the monster block. This works just fine for monsters but when you build a playable class around it, especially with the various options expected from such, you need a completely separate set of additional rules for Brane PoweRz that are explicitly Not Majik. That is why such explicitly Not Majik features are not in the game as playable class options. Because rules for all of those effects already exist and it's called magic.
If you're not a slave to the flavor text, you can indeed build any kind of psionic-themed character you want.
It will be strictly and categorically inferior to all existing competitive options, be deeply unsatisfying to play, drag its party down and get the rest of your table upset with you. But you can still totally do it.
Now it sounds like you're back to acknowledging that the magic system works just fine, but there aren't enough psionically themed spells to satisfy your desired flavor. So logically(?) the only good answer to this conundrum is to add in a completely separate set of additional rules for Brane PoweRz that are explicitly Not Majik that includes abilities that could be done by just adding some new spells. But apparently the effects of something like telekinesis, mage hand, catapult, charm/dominate person/monster, message, sending, suggestion, geas, or any number of illusion spells that are explicitly mind affecting cannot properly be done justice with the existing magic rules. So we need a completely separate set of additional rules for Brane PoweRz that are explicitly Not Majik to do the same things, but somehow "better" and yet still mechanically balanced? I am confused how that would possibly sound like a good idea to anybody.
If you do not want something that is used like the spell slot system already being used what do you want?
Do yo want a new way to calculate how many effects(spells) you get to do? If so is it because you want to do more casts than already possible?
You do realize that spells now written are in most cases copies of psionic effects. So if you write them up for psionic effects they will sound just like spells already written up.
Any new system you invent can in essence be directly converted into a new spell system.
Flush. You're deliberately misunderstanding my point and we both know it. As WildBill said - obviously it's enough for you to just reflavor some random spellcaster or other as a psychic character. Just as obviously, that is not sufficient for many other people.
People keep asking those who dislike "Psychic Spellcasters" to come up with a better idea, as if it's our job to spit out a perfected game design off the cuff. I know that if we do produce an idea, the thread will then become "prove the idea is bad and use that as proof that all psychics everywhere should never be anything but shitty low-rent spellcasters nobody wants to play with." But fine. Here's a notion.
Much like how the monk is a specialized martial class with a slew of unique-to-it class features that allow it to fulfill a specific play fantasy/archetype, a Psychic class would be a d8 intermediate/midliner class with a slew of features allowing it to fulfill the play fantasy of being a powerful awakened mind. Subclasses of the Psychic would focus in on a specific talent the Psychic is honing, and generally be much more important to the Psychic than subclasses are to other 5e classes. Whether those are the eight "Disciplines" of earlier D&D psionic weirdness or a more modernized set of abilities is an exercise left to the reader, but in either case the Psychic effectively chooses a specialization that guides its development. It has a set of powers, roughly equivalent in number/impact to monk abilities, that it can always use. At will, without limit or effort. It can, however, decide to Push its powers to gain greater effects at the cost of having to burn Hit Dice to do so. This ties the idea of exerting oneself at the cost of strain and damage to the body intrinsically to the class, which is a major element of most popular psychic characters. THis is also self-limiting, self-regulating, and provides a natural progression curve since the character's power is tied to their Hit Dice, which they can only get one way.
As examples, you could have the Kineticist subclass that focuses on psychokinetic movement, granting them the ability to manipulate objects, strike at a distance with propelled items, or defend themselves and others with barriers of force. You could have a Mindspinner subclass that focuses on mind-reading, domination, and thought projection whose primary form of attack is psychic bursts and who can dazzle or beguile their foes' wits and senses. You could have an Adept that turns their power inward and borrows certain themes from the monk class, using their abilities to enhance their bodies and perform feats of athletics and unarmed combat no one else can. But the core idea is that the Psychic has power it can use at a base level as freely as it can use its arms and legs because that power is as much a part of it as those arms and legs. And just like you can exert yourself to the point of self-injury trying to Athlete past your limits, you can push your psychic powers past the point of safety by drawing on your reserves of vitality and possibly suffering self injury to do it.
That would be a really cool alternative to just More God Damned Spellcasting. At least, it sounds like a good start point to me.
I like the idea of comparing this theoretical psychic class more to Monks than to spellcasters... move away from the idea that being psychic equates to having spells and more like it grants its own unique abilities that, perhaps, might manifest as a spell (similar to Monk Subclasses that allow you to cast certain spells using Ki), but those situations are the exception, not the rule.
Part of me likes the idea of using your Hit Die as your resource for this class... it fits thematically, as losing a hit die feels like it conveys a similar idea to the classic "psychic nosebleed", where a Psychic character utilizing their powers is clearly draining some aspect of themselves, but something that doesn't hinder you mid-battle since it doesn't reduce your current HP. That said, I'm hesitant to make hit die this class's primary resource... it's a cool concept, and in a lot of tables it will work out fine, since short rests aren't always done regularly for every group, but it could make the class very crippled in the long run.
I'm imagining something similar to a Rune Knight's Runes, where you get access to certain passive or otherwise always-available features, but attached to each feature is a secondary, much more impactful option. Maybe, like the runes, you can access those secondary options once per day at no additional cost, but using it again dips into hit die. That way you can still use all your cool super powers in a day without crippling yourself when it comes time to short rest, but you have to be smart and careful with them if you want to play like that.
I like the idea of comparing this theoretical psychic class more to Monks than to spellcasters... move away from the idea that being psychic equates to having spells and more like it grants its own unique abilities….
I have already been suggesting exactly that for a couple of pages now.
Well, yes, if you don't choose to take any of those abilities, you don't have them. I could justify any of those spells on a psychic. Even fireball (Firestarter).
Now, if you want to be a pure telekinetic, sure, it's hard to do a specialist in D&D, but that has nothing to do with psionics per se, it's just that it's hard to do a specialist in D&D.
Reflavoring the text of spells though doesn't make the class psionic (not to mention due to RAW, you either have to have a forgiving DM or you really are just a worse sorcerer, because RAW counterspell still works in most situations, unless you do things RAI and again thats at the whim of your DM).
Again for those of you arguing against psionics in general (or just saying to reflavor spellcasting) I don't see what would be wrong on gettnig an extra class or at least reflavoring more subclasses that could be built to do enough things to make it be more friendly (as in now the mystica arcana UA class). Yurei already provided a few things that could be thrown in there, they could just do a tweak off the Warlock class somehow to use that as a partial setup (mechanically taking the evocations to contribute to your psionics).
I mean again the thought of a Psionic Monk is something I find intriguing, a Psionic Barbarian (who when raging there mind enhances things due to there mind raging with them), the list could go on of things they could do if they are not going to just give us a new class that can work that way (although I know most would prefer to have the class).
Edited because I didn't realize the word I used would show up like that, didn't figure it would have been that bad.
A Psion class could be as simple as the fighter/Warlock hybrid (obviously way different, but just as simple), but with a “choose your own class features” mechanic and not need to “duplicate the whole spell list” like some folks are claiming. A Psionicist doesn’t need to be complicated, just mechanically different from Spellcasting.
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I am definitely in the camp that just about anything can be accomplished with reflavoring, and most ideas for new classes I see suggested often feel like they would work better as just a subclass. But still, I can't stop thinking about this idea for a telepath class... one which relies on telekinetic abilities to attack and defend themselves, and has a lot of classic psychic abilities hard baked into them. You could probably make this concept a subclass of some kind... but it would be pretty hard. I don't think there's an obvious analogue, since it's very specifically an idea that isn't a spellcaster, but also a class that wouldn't work as a martial class either. I might work on this as a homebrew and see if I can come up with anything, or if the whole thing falls apart once you try to actually apply it to the game.
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I mean that's my problem, is the fact that the idea Yurei presented does just seem that it could be riffed into some unique class and it could be lots of fun.
Now I will admit I'm openly biased about wanting this to be a class. If they turn it into a class than I can pull off homebrews on this site with the class and that's because my group uses this site heavily for the way we play now (which leaves me constantly needing to add things, or homebrew this thing here, etc) and based off how this site works, the homebrew system has its limits (I also understand why they don't rig the system to just be able to homebrew classes). Now sure I could homebrew this stuff, consulting with the alternate DM to make sure it would be acceptable in either one of our "worlds"... but that would require me to build it on paper and not be able to use the app... which is something that we've grown used to.
There are only about 20 distinct psionic abilities.
They could all be written up as scaling up in some way according to level.
As for using them they could be used exactly like the Wizard uses spells. Copy the spell slots systems of the wizard.
For the most part that is just reflavoring and not making anything unique... which is some of the points being brought up.
In addition, you get nothing unique and than are just a worse version of a wizard.. which has been another point.
WebDM is coming out with a psionics class in their Weird Wastelands kickstarter book. I am really looking forward to their take on it before I take a serious shot at making my own class for it in my home games.
Ok some more comments from the peanut gallery.
1) a properly designed and balanced psion is not going to have unlimited higher powered abilities it’s unbalanced. That means you either use a straight points system or you use a leveled system like spell slots - if you hate the term spell slots I can understand, perhaps calling them power potentials or something can make them easier to swallow.
2) yes you can reflavor a lot and for many that will be enough. For Yurei ( obviously) and some of the rest of us that isn’t enough. Please stop telling us it is - we get that for you it is, do you get that for us it isn’t? Further if reflavoring is fine for you, why are staying in the discussion and trying to tell those of us that disagree that we are wrong and should just get over it. We aren’t going to and that part of the discussion probably needs to end.
3) it’s clear to me, at least, that WOTC has no intention of coming up with anything resembling an independent psionics mechanic anytime before 7e it’s time for those of us that want such a thing to design our own - either individually or as a group - so after I post this I’ll open up a thread in the homebrew for those who want to design one we can all use.
4) the 2e, 3e, and even 4e psionics books have a well over 200 mostly non spell mimic abilities that could be updated to 5e very easily especially if uprating of powers is allowed (as it should be). So for those that don’t want spell duplicates I recommend getting a copy (digital or Hard copy) and take a stab or three at working out some sequences or subclasses.
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It would complicate some of the rules but not necessarily "needlessly".
Psychic powers are different, and should feel and act in a way different from magic. Limiting psychic abilities to spells of a certain subclass doesn't cut it.
The major problem I have with making psychic powers the same as magic is that it limits them to the spell rules - Counterspell and Antimagic Field being the prime offenders. Psychic powers are not magic so should be affected by such effects. By the same token Tower of Iron Will should not stop magic.
I feel that psychic powers should be available to everybody regardless of class, maybe as a subclass or Feat. Another reason (multi-class) they should not be magic, is that using the same spell slots to power spells and psychic powers doesn't make sense.
I agree that it would complicate the 5e attempt at streamlining.
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I disagree that it would necessarily have to complicate things. I certainly could complicate things if implemented in a complicated way, but it doesn’t have to be complicated. After all, counterspell doesn’t affect Action Surge, Second Wind, Sneak Attack, Evasion, Ki powers, Rage, or any number of other Features. Why should that be any different for Psionics? There are literally class & subclass features already in 5e that could very easily have been reflavored and called “Psionic Powers.” Why couldn’t they make a class that simply had a list of psionic features that the player picks the way a spellcaster player picks spells? Why should it have to be any more complicated than that? Why would it have to be complicated by default when it doesn’t have to be?
Could Psionics be complicated? Yes. Could it be “too complicated for 5e?” Judging by the fate of the Mystic, yes. Does it have to be? No, not at all.
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HAI everybody...this thread got my attention because I'm a big fan of psionics.
I kind of shoe horned a psionics system with the Sorcerer class since we can't really homebrew our own class in DnDBeyond only subclasses. I still need to playtest it with a group and get feedback. Essentially I'm leveraging the Sorcerer's meta-magic mechanic to act as supplementary Psionic Energy points to use powers. The framework is similar to how 2e presented it in the Complete Psionicists Handbook where a psionicist can focus on Disciplines.
The number of 'spells' or powers is very limited but the Psionic Energy points allow a character to do more extraordinary things with that power.
I tried to balance powersets with a spreadsheet Psionic Power Balancing spreadsheet
The link to my Homebrewed Psionicist subclass is Psionicist Subclass
You will also need to add the appropriate discipline powers which can be found in Homebrewed Spells. I typically precede a power's name by its major discipline so it can stand out from the plethora of magic spells out there.
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I've only played the class as a DM NPC and so far upto level 6 it feels decent and not over or underpowered. It would be nice to get others' feedback trying it out in actual gameplay.
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So, I've been going through the old Psionics stuff. Mostly skimming and making lists, but want to point out some stuff I've found.
To start, D&D has a history of being poorly named and constructed. Dexterity is not how bouncy you are. It's hand eye coordination, so dodging a lightning bolt shouldn't use it. The "Fighting-Man" or "Fighter" (my favourite class) is a capital S T U P I D name for a class when compared to other more evocative names like... wizard, cleric, thief, paladin, druid, monk. Why isn't the monk who fights people a fighting man? The Paladin is a fighting man, but we don't call him that.
I call out the foibles, because you need to maintain some of the stupidity for it to be D&D. Psions need to retain some of their stupid to be psions. And having skimmed OD&D's Eldritch Wizardry, AD&D's PHB Apendix I, 2E's ridiculously bloated Psionics Handbook, and 3E's Psionics Handbook, I can point out that these problems are not new. ESP and Clairvoyance were OD&D wizard spells before Eldritch Wizardry hit print.
AD&D said, "Hey, here's how to use this nearly impossible to get extra power."
Up through 2E, what made psions hard was the system for psionic combat because it wasn't turn based like literally everything else. You crammed in an entire extra system at the start of a book for a very unlikely scenareo which causes the game to screech to a hault until one psion whips another.
Then 3E comes along and spends like 6 pages describing the new Psion... and 4.5 pages describing the Psychic Warrior, Soul Knife, and Wilder combined.
I also don't buy that you can't fit the Mystic in complexity when you can fit the warlock. The warlock is dummy complex for funzies. And since everything in all of D&D hits AC with an attack roll, or makes the enemy make a saving throw, there's no reason why they couldn't make effectively the Sorcerer B which only uses its points and has a lot of class exclusive spells.
I'm with Yurei, that the Wizard shouldn't get psionic magic. Just cut it from everyone else's list and give Sorcerer B some warlock invocations and no spell slots. Done.
Complaining that psionics doesn't work like magic is like complaining that the D&D monk should be Naruto. It's a fictional ability transcribed into the rules of the game vs an entirely different and completely unrelated bit of pop culture. Psionics were awkwardly shoehorned into the game for no reason other than psychic abilities were popular in the early 80s. There isn't a correct way to do psionics anymore than there's a correct flavor for magenta Kool-Aid.
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The point is that there is no point. You're suggesting adding a bunch of overly complex junk to clutter up the rules just to do the same damn thing that magic already does,
So your complaint here appears to not have anything to do with "adding psionics" to the game. You just want more psychic themed/flavored spells. Aside from the question of "what Brane PowRz are not already represented by existing spells?" all you seem to be complaining about is the wish for more such spells.
So now you apparently do want your Brane PoweRz to be a completely different system that accomplishes the same kinds of effects that can be done with magic but requires extra rules because it's Not Majik.
So you once again are asserting that Brane PoweRz should absolutely be Not Majik with extra rules.
Illithids and other psionic-themed monsters have been in the game without the need for a completely separate set of additional rules for Brane PoweRz that are explicitly Not Majik. They just get an extra line in the monster block. This works just fine for monsters but when you build a playable class around it, especially with the various options expected from such, you need a completely separate set of additional rules for Brane PoweRz that are explicitly Not Majik. That is why such explicitly Not Majik features are not in the game as playable class options. Because rules for all of those effects already exist and it's called magic.
Now it sounds like you're back to acknowledging that the magic system works just fine, but there aren't enough psionically themed spells to satisfy your desired flavor. So logically(?) the only good answer to this conundrum is to add in a completely separate set of additional rules for Brane PoweRz that are explicitly Not Majik that includes abilities that could be done by just adding some new spells. But apparently the effects of something like telekinesis, mage hand, catapult, charm/dominate person/monster, message, sending, suggestion, geas, or any number of illusion spells that are explicitly mind affecting cannot properly be done justice with the existing magic rules. So we need a completely separate set of additional rules for Brane PoweRz that are explicitly Not Majik to do the same things, but somehow "better" and yet still mechanically balanced? I am confused how that would possibly sound like a good idea to anybody.
If you do not want something that is used like the spell slot system already being used what do you want?
Do yo want a new way to calculate how many effects(spells) you get to do? If so is it because you want to do more casts than already possible?
You do realize that spells now written are in most cases copies of psionic effects. So if you write them up for psionic effects they will sound just like spells already written up.
Any new system you invent can in essence be directly converted into a new spell system.
Flush. You're deliberately misunderstanding my point and we both know it. As WildBill said - obviously it's enough for you to just reflavor some random spellcaster or other as a psychic character. Just as obviously, that is not sufficient for many other people.
People keep asking those who dislike "Psychic Spellcasters" to come up with a better idea, as if it's our job to spit out a perfected game design off the cuff. I know that if we do produce an idea, the thread will then become "prove the idea is bad and use that as proof that all psychics everywhere should never be anything but shitty low-rent spellcasters nobody wants to play with." But fine. Here's a notion.
Much like how the monk is a specialized martial class with a slew of unique-to-it class features that allow it to fulfill a specific play fantasy/archetype, a Psychic class would be a d8 intermediate/midliner class with a slew of features allowing it to fulfill the play fantasy of being a powerful awakened mind. Subclasses of the Psychic would focus in on a specific talent the Psychic is honing, and generally be much more important to the Psychic than subclasses are to other 5e classes. Whether those are the eight "Disciplines" of earlier D&D psionic weirdness or a more modernized set of abilities is an exercise left to the reader, but in either case the Psychic effectively chooses a specialization that guides its development. It has a set of powers, roughly equivalent in number/impact to monk abilities, that it can always use. At will, without limit or effort. It can, however, decide to Push its powers to gain greater effects at the cost of having to burn Hit Dice to do so. This ties the idea of exerting oneself at the cost of strain and damage to the body intrinsically to the class, which is a major element of most popular psychic characters. THis is also self-limiting, self-regulating, and provides a natural progression curve since the character's power is tied to their Hit Dice, which they can only get one way.
As examples, you could have the Kineticist subclass that focuses on psychokinetic movement, granting them the ability to manipulate objects, strike at a distance with propelled items, or defend themselves and others with barriers of force. You could have a Mindspinner subclass that focuses on mind-reading, domination, and thought projection whose primary form of attack is psychic bursts and who can dazzle or beguile their foes' wits and senses. You could have an Adept that turns their power inward and borrows certain themes from the monk class, using their abilities to enhance their bodies and perform feats of athletics and unarmed combat no one else can. But the core idea is that the Psychic has power it can use at a base level as freely as it can use its arms and legs because that power is as much a part of it as those arms and legs. And just like you can exert yourself to the point of self-injury trying to Athlete past your limits, you can push your psychic powers past the point of safety by drawing on your reserves of vitality and possibly suffering self injury to do it.
That would be a really cool alternative to just More God Damned Spellcasting. At least, it sounds like a good start point to me.
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I like the idea of comparing this theoretical psychic class more to Monks than to spellcasters... move away from the idea that being psychic equates to having spells and more like it grants its own unique abilities that, perhaps, might manifest as a spell (similar to Monk Subclasses that allow you to cast certain spells using Ki), but those situations are the exception, not the rule.
Part of me likes the idea of using your Hit Die as your resource for this class... it fits thematically, as losing a hit die feels like it conveys a similar idea to the classic "psychic nosebleed", where a Psychic character utilizing their powers is clearly draining some aspect of themselves, but something that doesn't hinder you mid-battle since it doesn't reduce your current HP. That said, I'm hesitant to make hit die this class's primary resource... it's a cool concept, and in a lot of tables it will work out fine, since short rests aren't always done regularly for every group, but it could make the class very crippled in the long run.
I'm imagining something similar to a Rune Knight's Runes, where you get access to certain passive or otherwise always-available features, but attached to each feature is a secondary, much more impactful option. Maybe, like the runes, you can access those secondary options once per day at no additional cost, but using it again dips into hit die. That way you can still use all your cool super powers in a day without crippling yourself when it comes time to short rest, but you have to be smart and careful with them if you want to play like that.
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I have already been suggesting exactly that for a couple of pages now.
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