@Linklite I can’t continue discussing with you it you want to compare MSRP for SJ to Amazon prices for other stuff.
😂
Those prices are DDB. We can talk my FLGS if you like - £58 for Spelljammer, £35 for other books.
I really don't care what MSRP is when nobody sells it at that price. I'm interested in what I can get it for.
I'd still not pay $20 for each book, and it's a joke to insist I would. At 64 pages, $10 is, going on a cost per page, about what my local FLGS sells books for.
Ok. Let’s talk DDB. That’s $16.67 per book. That’s still pretty good. Granted the DDB price was a little higher than I expected. But still not bad.
For some unsurprising reason, you keep comparing the DDB prices for Spelljammer to the prices of other things for physical versions. DDB and Amazon price things very differently than local game stores & more, and a better comparison would be to the PHB, which is 320-ish pages, and priced at $25 or so on DDB. For reference, two of these $64 page "books" are more than $8 dollars over what the PHB is worth, and the PHB has close to three times as much content.
No one should have to buy a book from 2e just so the content they spent $70 dollars on will work. Keep believing that the page count/content and price tag align, but if you looked at the posts in a thread like this, or if you actually listened to any of the dozens upon dozens (I'm not even exaggerating here) of posts on this thread explaining why it doesn't for every instance you keep repeatedly bringing up, and you'll see that the math proves these two things objectively don't match up.
Wow, I haven’t been called kid in quite some time. You must be really old. 😂
I can assure you that I wasn’t part of the design team.
I think the module is very good. But we each have our preferences.
I happen to think the quality of this product is good. I know it isn’t what you guys wanted but it is what it is.
Why would someone pay more for this product then another product? They should if they like the content. I can get a complete D&D game by paying $10 for the Rules Compendium pdf. What would I spend $100+ on 5e books? I like 5e and want to play it.
Why would someone pay a few more bucks for SJ than say Curse of Strahd? Maybe they like space more than horror. Both products offer something different. If you think Saltmarah would make for a better SJ game than SJ then you really are not a fan of SJ and should skip this product. 😂
How can they skip it when they (from what I recall) already bought it? That's why they have the opinion they do.
Also what I think they're saying is that Saltmarsh provides ship combat rules (and other assorted ship rules) that Spelljammer doesn't, so Saltmarsh is better inspiration for how to run ships in space than the book about ships in space. That's what I gather from that statement.
If they bought it without knowing the contents then that is on them.
Wow, I haven’t been called kid in quite some time. You must be really old. 😂
I can assure you that I wasn’t part of the design team.
I think the module is very good. But we each have our preferences.
I happen to think the quality of this product is good. I know it isn’t what you guys wanted but it is what it is.
Why would someone pay more for this product then another product? They should if they like the content. I can get a complete D&D game by paying $10 for the Rules Compendium pdf. What would I spend $100+ on 5e books? I like 5e and want to play it.
Why would someone pay a few more bucks for SJ than say Curse of Strahd? Maybe they like space more than horror. Both products offer something different. If you think Saltmarah would make for a better SJ game than SJ then you really are not a fan of SJ and should skip this product. 😂
I mean, my preferences are for modules to
1, Allow for player agency
2. Not overload the party with GMPCs
3. Have fight's who's outcome actually matters.
4. Don't feel like something that came off of someone's Tripod site circa 1994.
This module as it is feels like a rough draft either for an unfinished module, the outline for a licensed comic or perhaps even a novel.
But as an officially licensed product of WotC? This is unacceptable.
I am not saying you are wrong if you dint like the adventure. It’s subjective so dofdeeent people will have different opinions.
Not one word about ship to ship combat? What about the section call “Ship to Ship Combat.”
What, the 7 sentences that tells you to use something from the DMG, a table that restates the range of weapons printed in other sources, and an explanation that the helm steers the ship?
Yeah, basically nothing.
Ghosts of Salt Marsh has more interesting mechanics, and they didn't even bother adopting those. Why are there better rules for fighting from a rowboat in a sewage pond than combat between spaceships?
@Linklite I can’t continue discussing with you it you want to compare MSRP for SJ to Amazon prices for other stuff.
😂
Those prices are DDB. We can talk my FLGS if you like - £58 for Spelljammer, £35 for other books.
I really don't care what MSRP is when nobody sells it at that price. I'm interested in what I can get it for.
I'd still not pay $20 for each book, and it's a joke to insist I would. At 64 pages, $10 is, going on a cost per page, about what my local FLGS sells books for.
Ok. Let’s talk DDB. That’s $16.67 per book. That’s still pretty good. Granted the DDB price was a little higher than I expected. But still not bad.
For some unsurprising reason, you keep comparing the DDB prices for Spelljammer to the prices of other things for physical versions. DDB and Amazon price things very differently than local game stores & more, and a better comparison would be to the PHB, which is 320-ish pages, and priced at $25 or so on DDB. For reference, two of these $64 page "books" are more than $8 dollars over what the PHB is worth, and the PHB has close to three times as much content.
No one should have to buy a book from 2e just so the content they spent $70 dollars on will work. Keep believing that the page count/content and price tag align, but if you looked at the posts in a thread like this, or if you actually listened to any of the dozens upon dozens (I'm not even exaggerating here) of posts on this thread explaining why it doesn't for every instance you keep repeatedly bringing up, and you'll see that the math proves these two things objectively don't match up.
I haven’t compared DDB prices to physical. I have done separate comparisons.
the PHB is always going to be a better value. They pr purposely keep that piece down.
Not one word about ship to ship combat? What about the section call “Ship to Ship Combat.”
What, the 7 sentences that tells you to use something from the DMG, a table that restates the range of weapons printed in other sources, and an explanation that the helm steers the ship?
Yeah, basically nothing.
Ghosts of Salt Marsh has more interesting mechanics, and they didn't even bother adopting those. Why are there better rules for fighting from a rowboat in a sewage pond than combat between spaceships?
Oh theres an excellent answer for that!
They felt that 64 pages for 3 books was a good idea and there simply wasn't nearly enough space for silly things like handling, maintainence, upgrading or any of a dozen otther things players might want to do with a boat that flies through space.
So stuff that very few people will use.
domyiu know what nearly everyone uses? Monster stats, chapter options and adventures. Guess where this book focused? In addition to the ship stats.
People keep talking about the tactical ship combat is missing. The FFG Star Wars RPG doesn’t have tactical ship combat either. And the Star Wars moves are known for ship combat. Why? In RPGs most people want to focus on characters and not vehicle.
It's almost like they bought the product so they could use Spelljammers.
We've been over several times why a 64 page book is not an equivalent to a 300+ page one, but you insist on comparing them as if they're equals. I'm done, we're not going to get anywhere.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Not one word about ship to ship combat? What about the section call “Ship to Ship Combat.”
What, the 7 sentences that tells you to use something from the DMG, a table that restates the range of weapons printed in other sources, and an explanation that the helm steers the ship?
Yeah, basically nothing.
Ghosts of Salt Marsh has more interesting mechanics, and they didn't even bother adopting those. Why are there better rules for fighting from a rowboat in a sewage pond than combat between spaceships?
Oh theres an excellent answer for that!
They felt that 64 pages for 3 books was a good idea and there simply wasn't nearly enough space for silly things like handling, maintainence, upgrading or any of a dozen otther things players might want to do with a boat that flies through space.
So stuff that very few people will use.
domyiu know what nearly everyone uses? Monster stats, chapter options and adventures. Guess where this book focused? In addition to the ship stats.
Yeah, it's not like people mine official materials for ideas for home brew campaigns or such or want to know that their money is well spent or have actual worthwhile mechanics for space travel.
And again: Light Xarysis as it is is a terrible module which I would have been embarrased to submit if I'd been on the team because of how completely devoid of agency it leaves the players; pretty much every place with a map is a straight line from start to finish with no real opportunities for players to be creative or make any decisions that meaningfully influence the plot. Like literally the only two decisions that matter are whether they blow up the sun (and like, why the hell wouldn't you?) and whether a player does it or the space vampire.
And the worst part is, it didn't have to be that way! They could have told the person who decided that spelljammer should be released like this to pound sand, made an actual setting guide that's worth reading and then produced a real module because the Idea of this one isn't bad so much as how it's structured in a way that makes it a pain to run or play.
Beyond that the miserable state of this makes seriously question the standards which everything else that's planned for realease between now and 6th will be held to by the company.
That you are making excuses for this mediocrity is frankly amazing.
Wow, I haven’t been called kid in quite some time. You must be really old. 😂
I can assure you that I wasn’t part of the design team.
I think the module is very good. But we each have our preferences.
I happen to think the quality of this product is good. I know it isn’t what you guys wanted but it is what it is.
Why would someone pay more for this product then another product? They should if they like the content. I can get a complete D&D game by paying $10 for the Rules Compendium pdf. What would I spend $100+ on 5e books? I like 5e and want to play it.
Why would someone pay a few more bucks for SJ than say Curse of Strahd? Maybe they like space more than horror. Both products offer something different. If you think Saltmarah would make for a better SJ game than SJ then you really are not a fan of SJ and should skip this product. 😂
How can they skip it when they (from what I recall) already bought it? That's why they have the opinion they do.
Also what I think they're saying is that Saltmarsh provides ship combat rules (and other assorted ship rules) that Spelljammer doesn't, so Saltmarsh is better inspiration for how to run ships in space than the book about ships in space. That's what I gather from that statement.
If they bought it without knowing the contents then that is on them.
So what you're saying is people should just not preorder anything from WoTC or D&D Beyond then, because not knowing the exact contents puts the blame for their disappointment on them?
Wow, I haven’t been called kid in quite some time. You must be really old. 😂
I can assure you that I wasn’t part of the design team.
I think the module is very good. But we each have our preferences.
I happen to think the quality of this product is good. I know it isn’t what you guys wanted but it is what it is.
Why would someone pay more for this product then another product? They should if they like the content. I can get a complete D&D game by paying $10 for the Rules Compendium pdf. What would I spend $100+ on 5e books? I like 5e and want to play it.
Why would someone pay a few more bucks for SJ than say Curse of Strahd? Maybe they like space more than horror. Both products offer something different. If you think Saltmarah would make for a better SJ game than SJ then you really are not a fan of SJ and should skip this product. 😂
How can they skip it when they (from what I recall) already bought it? That's why they have the opinion they do.
Also what I think they're saying is that Saltmarsh provides ship combat rules (and other assorted ship rules) that Spelljammer doesn't, so Saltmarsh is better inspiration for how to run ships in space than the book about ships in space. That's what I gather from that statement.
If they bought it without knowing the contents then that is on them.
So what you're saying is people should just not preorder anything from WoTC or D&D Beyond then, because not knowing the exact contents puts the blame for their disappointment on them?
Beyond that "buyer beware" is an incredibly bad sales slogan.
People keep talking about the tactical ship combat is missing. The FFG Star Wars RPG doesn’t have tactical ship combat either. And the Star Wars moves are known for ship combat. Why? In RPGs most people want to focus on characters and not vehicle.
Have you even read FFGs Star Wars rpg... it has so much working rules for starship combat, rules and even upgrades... it might not be tactical (like D&D) it is a cinematic system
Not one word about ship to ship combat? What about the section call “Ship to Ship Combat.”
What, the 7 sentences that tells you to use something from the DMG, a table that restates the range of weapons printed in other sources, and an explanation that the helm steers the ship?
Yeah, basically nothing.
Ghosts of Salt Marsh has more interesting mechanics, and they didn't even bother adopting those. Why are there better rules for fighting from a rowboat in a sewage pond than combat between spaceships?
Better is subjective.
It's really not. Salt marsh actually put effort into a lot of content that wasn't expressley required for the execution of the module specifically because they understood that players would want to be able to have fun naval adventures and needed rules to facilitate that.
Meanwhile spelljammer is completely full of holes.
Not one word about ship to ship combat? What about the section call “Ship to Ship Combat.”
Yeah, basically nothing.
Ghosts of Salt Marsh has more interesting mechanics, and they didn't even bother adopting those. Why are there better rules for fighting from a rowboat in a sewage pond than combat between spaceships?
Better is subjective.
It's really not. Salt marsh actually put effort into a lot of content that wasn't expressley required for the execution of the module specifically because they understood that players would want to be able to have fun naval adventures and needed rules to facilitate that.
Meanwhile spelljammer is completely full of holes.
But are the Saltmarsh ship combat rules *good*? Are they fun to use? And is the lack of them in Spelljammer *bad*? Is it less fun to play without them? We're just accepting this as something that goes without saying, but let's, uh, say it!
I only have a little bit of experience with the Saltmarsh rules -- I used them to run an encounter between my party's giant longship (crewed by frost giants) and a squid ship (yep, it was a Spelljammer reference, though I didn't notice) towards the tail end of my SKT campaign. Here's what occurred: They used a spell to mess with the enemy ship based on the fact that I ruled that a ship has momentum and most spell effects sit in place. Then, they closed the distance and locked themselves in for a regular kind of battle. My players were tactically minded people, they identified the optimal strategy and took it. They may have been biased somewhat towards a strategy that involved everyone, not just the Wizard trying to snipe everyone with his familiar from far away. I think that's fine.
We also used the Saltmarsh rules as a guide while playing Avernus. Most of those fights went like this: We used a spell to mess with the enemy vehicle based on the fact that the DM ruled that vehicles have momentum and most spell effects sit in place. We tried to drive in a way where we could shoot them but they couldn't shoot us. That didn't work very well. We realized we could do a lot more damage and be at a lot less risk if we stopped and fought a regular kind of battle. So we did that. On one memorable occasion we then got back in the vehicle and ran someone over.
Overall, it was a fair amount of cross referencing for relatively little. All we really needed was... Well, basically what's in Spelljammer. The means to get us quickly to a regular kind of battle. Would have worked just as well!
Maybe other people's experiences differ from mine! I would be shocked if they didn't. Let's talk about it!
Not one word about ship to ship combat? What about the section call “Ship to Ship Combat.”
Yeah, basically nothing.
Ghosts of Salt Marsh has more interesting mechanics, and they didn't even bother adopting those. Why are there better rules for fighting from a rowboat in a sewage pond than combat between spaceships?
Better is subjective.
It's really not. Salt marsh actually put effort into a lot of content that wasn't expressley required for the execution of the module specifically because they understood that players would want to be able to have fun naval adventures and needed rules to facilitate that.
Meanwhile spelljammer is completely full of holes.
But are the Saltmarsh ship combat rules *good*? Are they fun to use? And is the lack of them in Spelljammer *bad*? Is it less fun to play without them? We're just accepting this as something that goes without saying, but let's, uh, say it!
I mean... brutal honesty time here: NONE of D&D 5e's vehicle rules are "good"; because they behave incredibly strangely and against what one might expect. IE: the entire conceit of just treating vehicles as "creatures" instead of vehicles. Thus; they have no inertia, no sub-systems (besides weapons in Spelljammer bizarrely enough), and the rules governing them are spread across multiple sections of multiple books (the ships themselves, their stat-blocks, the rules concerning "damage thresholds" and damaging objects etc.); some of which are campaign books (Saltmarsh, Decent into Avernus), some of which are rule books (DMG, Spelljammer), even UA content... It's all quite a mess. I can't help but feel that in attempting to make something "simple". WotC has ironically made something incredibly complicated to piece together, but with no depth: the worst of both worlds.
Not one word about ship to ship combat? What about the section call “Ship to Ship Combat.”
What, the 7 sentences that tells you to use something from the DMG, a table that restates the range of weapons printed in other sources, and an explanation that the helm steers the ship?
Yeah, basically nothing.
Ghosts of Salt Marsh has more interesting mechanics, and they didn't even bother adopting those. Why are there better rules for fighting from a rowboat in a sewage pond than combat between spaceships?
Oh theres an excellent answer for that!
They felt that 64 pages for 3 books was a good idea and there simply wasn't nearly enough space for silly things like handling, maintainence, upgrading or any of a dozen otther things players might want to do with a boat that flies through space.
So stuff that very few people will use.
domyiu know what nearly everyone uses? Monster stats, chapter options and adventures. Guess where this book focused? In addition to the ship stats.
That is even worse. That just suggests all the content spent on ship stats is wasted since few people will ever use their combat statistics.
Its not great value either way. Either the ships combat rules are thin, or its not a focus and the content in general is even thinner than before because of all the wasted text dedicated to the different ship statistics.
Maybe, they should have just released a version of spelljammers with the same amount of content as previous books, or sold it for 20 bucks as a half module.
Looks likethe Hadozee got the fastest errata ever fixing their bad lore and the Glide trait
I would argue the bad lore part of that, as that one or two paragraphs of lore was actually interesting, and despite what people like to believe not every mention of slavery is a reference to American slavery and just because African Americans have been called apes by racist in the past and probably the present doesn't mean they're racist caricatures. And at the rate people are going we're not going to have any reference to slavery at all in D&D. And this is the last I have to say on the matter.
Edit* I just want to point out that having removed that lore spell jammer now has even less lore then before.
For some unsurprising reason, you keep comparing the DDB prices for Spelljammer to the prices of other things for physical versions. DDB and Amazon price things very differently than local game stores & more, and a better comparison would be to the PHB, which is 320-ish pages, and priced at $25 or so on DDB. For reference, two of these $64 page "books" are more than $8 dollars over what the PHB is worth, and the PHB has close to three times as much content.
No one should have to buy a book from 2e just so the content they spent $70 dollars on will work. Keep believing that the page count/content and price tag align, but if you looked at the posts in a thread like this, or if you actually listened to any of the dozens upon dozens (I'm not even exaggerating here) of posts on this thread explaining why it doesn't for every instance you keep repeatedly bringing up, and you'll see that the math proves these two things objectively don't match up.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.If they bought it without knowing the contents then that is on them.
I am not saying you are wrong if you dint like the adventure. It’s subjective so dofdeeent people will have different opinions.
Better is subjective.
I haven’t compared DDB prices to physical. I have done separate comparisons.
the PHB is always going to be a better value. They pr purposely keep that piece down.
So stuff that very few people will use.
domyiu know what nearly everyone uses? Monster stats, chapter options and adventures. Guess where this book focused? In addition to the ship stats.
People keep talking about the tactical ship combat is missing. The FFG Star Wars RPG doesn’t have tactical ship combat either. And the Star Wars moves are known for ship combat. Why? In RPGs most people want to focus on characters and not vehicle.
Is it focused on those things if it’s still fewer pages of that content than other books?
It's almost like they bought the product so they could use Spelljammers.
We've been over several times why a 64 page book is not an equivalent to a 300+ page one, but you insist on comparing them as if they're equals. I'm done, we're not going to get anywhere.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Yeah, it's not like people mine official materials for ideas for home brew campaigns or such or want to know that their money is well spent or have actual worthwhile mechanics for space travel.
And again: Light Xarysis as it is is a terrible module which I would have been embarrased to submit if I'd been on the team because of how completely devoid of agency it leaves the players; pretty much every place with a map is a straight line from start to finish with no real opportunities for players to be creative or make any decisions that meaningfully influence the plot. Like literally the only two decisions that matter are whether they blow up the sun (and like, why the hell wouldn't you?) and whether a player does it or the space vampire.
And the worst part is, it didn't have to be that way! They could have told the person who decided that spelljammer should be released like this to pound sand, made an actual setting guide that's worth reading and then produced a real module because the Idea of this one isn't bad so much as how it's structured in a way that makes it a pain to run or play.
Beyond that the miserable state of this makes seriously question the standards which everything else that's planned for realease between now and 6th will be held to by the company.
That you are making excuses for this mediocrity is frankly amazing.
So what you're saying is people should just not preorder anything from WoTC or D&D Beyond then, because not knowing the exact contents puts the blame for their disappointment on them?
Beyond that "buyer beware" is an incredibly bad sales slogan.
Have you even read FFGs Star Wars rpg... it has so much working rules for starship combat, rules and even upgrades... it might not be tactical (like D&D) it is a cinematic system
Wizards of the Coast Feedback/Support
https://support.wizards.com/hc/en-us/requests/new
It's really not. Salt marsh actually put effort into a lot of content that wasn't expressley required for the execution of the module specifically because they understood that players would want to be able to have fun naval adventures and needed rules to facilitate that.
Meanwhile spelljammer is completely full of holes.
But are the Saltmarsh ship combat rules *good*? Are they fun to use? And is the lack of them in Spelljammer *bad*? Is it less fun to play without them? We're just accepting this as something that goes without saying, but let's, uh, say it!
I only have a little bit of experience with the Saltmarsh rules -- I used them to run an encounter between my party's giant longship (crewed by frost giants) and a squid ship (yep, it was a Spelljammer reference, though I didn't notice) towards the tail end of my SKT campaign. Here's what occurred: They used a spell to mess with the enemy ship based on the fact that I ruled that a ship has momentum and most spell effects sit in place. Then, they closed the distance and locked themselves in for a regular kind of battle. My players were tactically minded people, they identified the optimal strategy and took it. They may have been biased somewhat towards a strategy that involved everyone, not just the Wizard trying to snipe everyone with his familiar from far away. I think that's fine.
We also used the Saltmarsh rules as a guide while playing Avernus. Most of those fights went like this: We used a spell to mess with the enemy vehicle based on the fact that the DM ruled that vehicles have momentum and most spell effects sit in place. We tried to drive in a way where we could shoot them but they couldn't shoot us. That didn't work very well. We realized we could do a lot more damage and be at a lot less risk if we stopped and fought a regular kind of battle. So we did that. On one memorable occasion we then got back in the vehicle and ran someone over.
Overall, it was a fair amount of cross referencing for relatively little. All we really needed was... Well, basically what's in Spelljammer. The means to get us quickly to a regular kind of battle. Would have worked just as well!
Maybe other people's experiences differ from mine! I would be shocked if they didn't. Let's talk about it!
I mean... brutal honesty time here: NONE of D&D 5e's vehicle rules are "good"; because they behave incredibly strangely and against what one might expect. IE: the entire conceit of just treating vehicles as "creatures" instead of vehicles. Thus; they have no inertia, no sub-systems (besides weapons in Spelljammer bizarrely enough), and the rules governing them are spread across multiple sections of multiple books (the ships themselves, their stat-blocks, the rules concerning "damage thresholds" and damaging objects etc.); some of which are campaign books (Saltmarsh, Decent into Avernus), some of which are rule books (DMG, Spelljammer), even UA content... It's all quite a mess. I can't help but feel that in attempting to make something "simple". WotC has ironically made something incredibly complicated to piece together, but with no depth: the worst of both worlds.
That is even worse. That just suggests all the content spent on ship stats is wasted since few people will ever use their combat statistics.
Its not great value either way. Either the ships combat rules are thin, or its not a focus and the content in general is even thinner than before because of all the wasted text dedicated to the different ship statistics.
Maybe, they should have just released a version of spelljammers with the same amount of content as previous books, or sold it for 20 bucks as a half module.
Looks likethe Hadozee got the fastest errata ever fixing their bad lore and the Glide trait
Wizards of the Coast Feedback/Support
https://support.wizards.com/hc/en-us/requests/new
If I recall correctly; that glide exploit was found, and pointed out during the UA phase of this and just... never fixed for release.
I would argue the bad lore part of that, as that one or two paragraphs of lore was actually interesting, and despite what people like to believe not every mention of slavery is a reference to American slavery and just because African Americans have been called apes by racist in the past and probably the present doesn't mean they're racist caricatures. And at the rate people are going we're not going to have any reference to slavery at all in D&D. And this is the last I have to say on the matter.
Edit* I just want to point out that having removed that lore spell jammer now has even less lore then before.
If I can't say something nice, I try to not say anything at all. So if I suddenly stop participating in a topic that's probably why.