So me, a DM, was under the impression that lawful evil souls are to be sent to the 9 hells upon death, there they are turned into Lemures. I also know that Devils keep souls and even torment them. So my main confusion is, why would devils keep souls and how do they get to keep souls if they're supposed to be made into devils, and even if they weren't, why would they be merely stored rather than be used in the blood war?
Souls are the primary form of currency in the lower planes from what I recall, which can be used to create more fiends, directly power up already existing fiends by consuming them, or being used as currency in the exchange of other things. The Nine Hells in particular is a lawful plane as well as evil, so their strict hierarchy might place limitations on the number of certain devils that can exist in order for the Arch-devils to maintain control of their forces.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
I think a soul doesn't ever simply arrive in the Hells upon death. They go to a sort of purgatory (I forget the name), where they are sorted and claimed by their respectively aligned masters, or more likely by their masters' underlings. But it's not a perfect process. A greedy devil might connive to grab more souls than he's actually entitled to. Souls might slip through the cracks, or successfully hide themselves among others. Most souls are relatively anonymous, just like most living people. They don't all end up where they belong. (And even if they do, sometimes they escape or get taken away!)
I believe only evil souls can become devils. Good and neutral souls can't. But good and neutral souls CAN become evil souls. And that's the point of the torment. (Well, that and sadism.)
I think a soul doesn't ever simply arrive in the Hells upon death. They go to a sort of purgatory (I forget the name), where they are sorted and claimed by their respectively aligned masters, or more likely by their masters' underlings.
I believe you're thinking of the Fugue Plane, which was unique to the Forgotten Realms.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I think a soul doesn't ever simply arrive in the Hells upon death. They go to a sort of purgatory (I forget the name), where they are sorted and claimed by their respectively aligned masters, or more likely by their masters' underlings.
I believe you're thinking of the Fugue Plane, which was unique to the Forgotten Realms.
Yeah, that's the one. Are the Nine Hells not also unique to the Realms?
The Nine Hells are part of the Great Wheel, which is the basic cosmology that encompasses most D&D worlds (Eberron being an exception, though it might still be linked to the rest of the Multiverse). The same Nine Hells that show up in the Forgotten Realms also show up in Greyhawk, Birthright, Planescape (obviously), and Dragonlance (though in the Dragonlance setting the Outer Planes have different names than they do in other settings, don't remember what they all are).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
In my version of the cosmology, outer planes are where souls go to be rewarded after death, not punished.
Many lawful good people consider going to the Nine Hells a "punishment" because for them, a place where everyone is evil is a punishment.
For a lawful evil person, a place where everyone is like them is a fine afterlife. That some of them are captured and tormented is not a punishment for anything they did in life - it's just a consequence of being in a place where everything and everyone is evil. Many lawful evil people would have no issues with the torment, as long as they are the ones doing the tormenting, or that they at least have some way to get promoted from victim to tormentor.
Bear in mind, not just LE people go to the Hells. Devils also cultivate souls by buying them through infernal contracts. Apparently this is allowed by the rest of the powers that be in the universe. So Hell is where some LE souls go to, but also the souls of people whose worth has been bankrupted by infernal bargains. In Hell, they have currency. May not make sense to mortals, but there's definitely an accounting and hoarding of souls, probably because as mentioned souls can be used to "fuel" things, from new fiends to even the Hell version of an infernal combustion engine.
Of course LE souls could wind up on Archeron, particularly martial ones. Where they're sort of in brutal valhalla, perpetually fighting in the various insane wars going on there. The Abyss, I'm not sure what worth they have of souls, unless Demons need them to be created. Generally it seems the Abyss is a just the sight of an incursion of chaos and evil that doesn't want to wait for curated souls, but to dominate and consumer the multiverse. Now Carceri, that's an interesting place in my book. That's where souls and sometimes mortal beings are locked up to never be found, in my game the folks confined there are either there by the tacit consent of all planar parties, or some planar parties trying to secret the prisoner there without the rest of the planes knowing about it. This causes tension within Carceri because the capacity doesn't completely account for the population.
But you got the Styx running through the lower planes too, maybe that river like many in the prime material plane, allows for some sort of commerce of souls to take place too.
I understand that souls have to go through a certain process, and that they also are not always LE souls that go to the 9 hells. I also can understand that only the Lawful Evil souls would be turned into devils, but the point baffles me. I don't get how the thought process behind keeping souls for themselves rather than the betterment of the Devil Legions which in turn would speed the war closer to the end and they would be able to harvest even more souls without their efforts impeded by demons. Idk guess I just view it as selfish and impractical (devils right?)
The Abyss, I'm not sure what worth they have of souls, unless Demons need them to be created. Generally it seems the Abyss is a just the sight of an incursion of chaos and evil that doesn't want to wait for curated souls, but to dominate and consumer the multiverse.
In the Abyss, souls are transformed into Dretch, Rutterkin, Manes, or dinner, depending on the whims of the Nalfeshnee (who are in charge of the process).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I guess I just always viewed it more biblically than I did Lore wise. I understand the whole sell ur soul to the 9 hells but it confuses me how they would use SOULS to use as currency and to fuel their war machines. Like, why would they store souls in coins when it would be beneficial to have them turn into devils(I get the view point that there can only be a certain amount of devils) and why would they be okay with using souls to power machines, grinding and burning the soul till it no longer exists when even demons frown upon erasing souls(Nabassu) idk thx for the insight tho
I guess it is a reflection of an equally bizarre practise of assigning a certain value to pieces of metal and then keeping them in a chest :) Devils are not always working to a singular common goal - in fact, the Lawful Evil nature is largely about utilising the complexities of law and bureaucracy to further your own interests.
My take on it is simply that souls indeed are valuable for the blood war, but the "currency" fluctuates with the everlasting push back and forth in that war - and so devils may horde souls for the right moment when they can either maximise their influence or wealth.
That would also explain the concepts that the hags of Hades trade soul larvae to both demons and devils.
Souls are like the equivalent of the spice melange for the devils; they turn some into lemures, some into soul coins, some as hostages, some for slaves and some for amusement and as such they're quite useful as a commodity for trade between the various layers, organizations and individuals in the lower plains.
Heck, some of them are effectively incinerated in the engines of their war machines.
I think there's a few other planes (Maybe two) that are Lawful Evil but aren't under the Hegemony of the Nine Hells and Asmodeus. At least in regards souls claimed by specific Devils, I always understood (perhaps under my own initiative) that those Souls would be ultimately be fodder for the Blood War, but that they also acted as currency for that Devil and it's masters. Like, Dispater gets Joe Fighter and (most likely) semds him off to the Blood War front lines. But Joe is also part of Dispaters personal armies that Dispater commits. In other cases, Dispater may take Joe and either consume their soul, or groom them for a different vocation / station.
I understand that souls have to go through a certain process, and that they also are not always LE souls that go to the 9 hells. I also can understand that only the Lawful Evil souls would be turned into devils, but the point baffles me. I don't get how the thought process behind keeping souls for themselves rather than the betterment of the Devil Legions which in turn would speed the war closer to the end and they would be able to harvest even more souls without their efforts impeded by demons. Idk guess I just view it as selfish and impractical (devils right?)
Remember that Hell doesn’t exist for Hell’s benefit, but for Asmodeus’s. And it’s implied (and sometimes just stated) throughout editions that Asmodeus is playing a game the other devils aren’t in on, one that may require the Blood War to go on longer. After all, the Blood War is the conflict that allows him to present himself as the multiverse’s guardian.
I understand that souls have to go through a certain process, and that they also are not always LE souls that go to the 9 hells. I also can understand that only the Lawful Evil souls would be turned into devils, but the point baffles me. I don't get how the thought process behind keeping souls for themselves rather than the betterment of the Devil Legions which in turn would speed the war closer to the end and they would be able to harvest even more souls without their efforts impeded by demons. Idk guess I just view it as selfish and impractical (devils right?)
Hell is orderly, but there is tension and contest. I don't think it's discussed in 5e, but in older blood war lore, the Lords of the 9 Hells have to provide some resources to the Blood War effort, but no one aside from Zariel is giving 100%. They don't have to. The business of Hell is not just the Blood War, and all the Arch Devils are constantly engaged in an infernal economy that Asmodeus believes he's rigged to master, though lore indicates other archdevils have made a swing at him. It's why Mephistopheles (arguably) and Levistus (definitely) are where they are.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I understand that souls have to go through a certain process, and that they also are not always LE souls that go to the 9 hells. I also can understand that only the Lawful Evil souls would be turned into devils, but the point baffles me. I don't get how the thought process behind keeping souls for themselves rather than the betterment of the Devil Legions which in turn would speed the war closer to the end and they would be able to harvest even more souls without their efforts impeded by demons. Idk guess I just view it as selfish and impractical (devils right?)
Hell is orderly, but there is tension and contest. I don't think it's discussed in 5e, but in older blood war lore, the Lords of the 9 Hells have to provide some resources to the Blood War effort, but no one aside from Zariel is giving 100%. They don't have to. The business of Hell is not just the Blood War, and all the Arch Devils are constantly engaged in an infernal economy that Asmodeus believes he's rigged to master, though lore indicates other archdevils have made a swing at him. It's why Mephistopheles (arguably) and Levistus (definitely) are where they are.
The other reading of the lore and one which I've quite liked is that Asmodeus is both king and prisoner of hell; he is ostensibly in charge and none of the Arch ddevils want to get in his way, but by the same coin Asmodeus has goals and ambitions he can't act on because the blood war and the sheer ammount of intrigue at play is just robbing him of the ability to deal with anything else.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So me, a DM, was under the impression that lawful evil souls are to be sent to the 9 hells upon death, there they are turned into Lemures. I also know that Devils keep souls and even torment them. So my main confusion is, why would devils keep souls and how do they get to keep souls if they're supposed to be made into devils, and even if they weren't, why would they be merely stored rather than be used in the blood war?
Souls are the primary form of currency in the lower planes from what I recall, which can be used to create more fiends, directly power up already existing fiends by consuming them, or being used as currency in the exchange of other things. The Nine Hells in particular is a lawful plane as well as evil, so their strict hierarchy might place limitations on the number of certain devils that can exist in order for the Arch-devils to maintain control of their forces.
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Characters for Tenebris Sine Fine
RoughCoronet's Greater Wills
I think a soul doesn't ever simply arrive in the Hells upon death. They go to a sort of purgatory (I forget the name), where they are sorted and claimed by their respectively aligned masters, or more likely by their masters' underlings. But it's not a perfect process. A greedy devil might connive to grab more souls than he's actually entitled to. Souls might slip through the cracks, or successfully hide themselves among others. Most souls are relatively anonymous, just like most living people. They don't all end up where they belong. (And even if they do, sometimes they escape or get taken away!)
I believe only evil souls can become devils. Good and neutral souls can't. But good and neutral souls CAN become evil souls. And that's the point of the torment. (Well, that and sadism.)
I believe you're thinking of the Fugue Plane, which was unique to the Forgotten Realms.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Yeah, that's the one. Are the Nine Hells not also unique to the Realms?
The Nine Hells are part of the Great Wheel, which is the basic cosmology that encompasses most D&D worlds (Eberron being an exception, though it might still be linked to the rest of the Multiverse). The same Nine Hells that show up in the Forgotten Realms also show up in Greyhawk, Birthright, Planescape (obviously), and Dragonlance (though in the Dragonlance setting the Outer Planes have different names than they do in other settings, don't remember what they all are).
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
It depends on how you are using the word "hell".
In my version of the cosmology, outer planes are where souls go to be rewarded after death, not punished.
Many lawful good people consider going to the Nine Hells a "punishment" because for them, a place where everyone is evil is a punishment.
For a lawful evil person, a place where everyone is like them is a fine afterlife. That some of them are captured and tormented is not a punishment for anything they did in life - it's just a consequence of being in a place where everything and everyone is evil. Many lawful evil people would have no issues with the torment, as long as they are the ones doing the tormenting, or that they at least have some way to get promoted from victim to tormentor.
Bear in mind, not just LE people go to the Hells. Devils also cultivate souls by buying them through infernal contracts. Apparently this is allowed by the rest of the powers that be in the universe. So Hell is where some LE souls go to, but also the souls of people whose worth has been bankrupted by infernal bargains. In Hell, they have currency. May not make sense to mortals, but there's definitely an accounting and hoarding of souls, probably because as mentioned souls can be used to "fuel" things, from new fiends to even the Hell version of an infernal combustion engine.
Of course LE souls could wind up on Archeron, particularly martial ones. Where they're sort of in brutal valhalla, perpetually fighting in the various insane wars going on there. The Abyss, I'm not sure what worth they have of souls, unless Demons need them to be created. Generally it seems the Abyss is a just the sight of an incursion of chaos and evil that doesn't want to wait for curated souls, but to dominate and consumer the multiverse. Now Carceri, that's an interesting place in my book. That's where souls and sometimes mortal beings are locked up to never be found, in my game the folks confined there are either there by the tacit consent of all planar parties, or some planar parties trying to secret the prisoner there without the rest of the planes knowing about it. This causes tension within Carceri because the capacity doesn't completely account for the population.
But you got the Styx running through the lower planes too, maybe that river like many in the prime material plane, allows for some sort of commerce of souls to take place too.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I understand that souls have to go through a certain process, and that they also are not always LE souls that go to the 9 hells. I also can understand that only the Lawful Evil souls would be turned into devils, but the point baffles me. I don't get how the thought process behind keeping souls for themselves rather than the betterment of the Devil Legions which in turn would speed the war closer to the end and they would be able to harvest even more souls without their efforts impeded by demons. Idk guess I just view it as selfish and impractical (devils right?)
In the Abyss, souls are transformed into Dretch, Rutterkin, Manes, or dinner, depending on the whims of the Nalfeshnee (who are in charge of the process).
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I guess I just always viewed it more biblically than I did Lore wise. I understand the whole sell ur soul to the 9 hells but it confuses me how they would use SOULS to use as currency and to fuel their war machines. Like, why would they store souls in coins when it would be beneficial to have them turn into devils(I get the view point that there can only be a certain amount of devils) and why would they be okay with using souls to power machines, grinding and burning the soul till it no longer exists when even demons frown upon erasing souls(Nabassu) idk thx for the insight tho
I guess it is a reflection of an equally bizarre practise of assigning a certain value to pieces of metal and then keeping them in a chest :)
Devils are not always working to a singular common goal - in fact, the Lawful Evil nature is largely about utilising the complexities of law and bureaucracy to further your own interests.
My take on it is simply that souls indeed are valuable for the blood war, but the "currency" fluctuates with the everlasting push back and forth in that war - and so devils may horde souls for the right moment when they can either maximise their influence or wealth.
That would also explain the concepts that the hags of Hades trade soul larvae to both demons and devils.
Souls are like the equivalent of the spice melange for the devils; they turn some into lemures, some into soul coins, some as hostages, some for slaves and some for amusement and as such they're quite useful as a commodity for trade between the various layers, organizations and individuals in the lower plains.
Heck, some of them are effectively incinerated in the engines of their war machines.
I think there's a few other planes (Maybe two) that are Lawful Evil but aren't under the Hegemony of the Nine Hells and Asmodeus. At least in regards souls claimed by specific Devils, I always understood (perhaps under my own initiative) that those Souls would be ultimately be fodder for the Blood War, but that they also acted as currency for that Devil and it's masters. Like, Dispater gets Joe Fighter and (most likely) semds him off to the Blood War front lines. But Joe is also part of Dispaters personal armies that Dispater commits. In other cases, Dispater may take Joe and either consume their soul, or groom them for a different vocation / station.
Remember that Hell doesn’t exist for Hell’s benefit, but for Asmodeus’s. And it’s implied (and sometimes just stated) throughout editions that Asmodeus is playing a game the other devils aren’t in on, one that may require the Blood War to go on longer. After all, the Blood War is the conflict that allows him to present himself as the multiverse’s guardian.
Hell is orderly, but there is tension and contest. I don't think it's discussed in 5e, but in older blood war lore, the Lords of the 9 Hells have to provide some resources to the Blood War effort, but no one aside from Zariel is giving 100%. They don't have to. The business of Hell is not just the Blood War, and all the Arch Devils are constantly engaged in an infernal economy that Asmodeus believes he's rigged to master, though lore indicates other archdevils have made a swing at him. It's why Mephistopheles (arguably) and Levistus (definitely) are where they are.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
The other reading of the lore and one which I've quite liked is that Asmodeus is both king and prisoner of hell; he is ostensibly in charge and none of the Arch ddevils want to get in his way, but by the same coin Asmodeus has goals and ambitions he can't act on because the blood war and the sheer ammount of intrigue at play is just robbing him of the ability to deal with anything else.