Geas, because not only is it messing with someone's willpower to force them to do things, but they know that their new "friend" who's given them the charmed condition is forcing them to do those things and still have to keep doing them (so that they don't take a buncha damage)! 😭
and for regular folk, its an instakill generally if we go by commoner statblock
I would say that soul cage is probably the worst of the spells presented, because it's really just needless cruelty, you can do just about everything it does in another way, better, its only real use is tormenting people. Looking at some other spells discussed in this thread:
imprisonment has some legitimate uses, mostly for containing people who you really can't contain in any other way.
storm of vengeance isn't a great spell because of its propensity for collateral damage, but being able to destroy armies has uses.
heat metal is a quite situational spell but it's not needlessly cruel, it's just a means to kill a particular class of foe.
modify memory is pretty bad -- it can have legitimate uses, but it has a lot more abuse potential than legitimate use potential.
geas has legitimate uses though it has significant abuse potential.
power word pain is not terribly effective and seems needlessly cruel, which pushes it up the evil list.
Magic jar, for sure. It simultaneously expands your life span (arguably evil) and imprisons somebody else in a jar. I can't think of a single good-intentioned reason to use it.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Magic jar, for sure. It simultaneously expands your life span (arguably evil) and imprisons somebody else in a jar. I can't think of a single good-intentioned reason to use it.
I'm curious as to what arguments you had in mind that would make extending one's lifespan "arguably evil"?
true strike hands down is the most evil spell in the game, its only purpose is to trick new players into playing poorly.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Magic jar, for sure. It simultaneously expands your life span (arguably evil) and imprisons somebody else in a jar. I can't think of a single good-intentioned reason to use it.
I'm curious as to what arguments you had in mind that would make extending one's lifespan "arguably evil"?
I mean... people are supposed to die. I guess the fact that elves get to cheat kind of rocks the boat, but I still feel like a natural death is a thing to respect, 'cause otherwise a lot of things go to proverbial hell. I'm not a grave cleric, so I probably can't give the best argument, but I still feel like that's a very slippery slope.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Magic jar, for sure. It simultaneously expands your life span (arguably evil) and imprisons somebody else in a jar. I can't think of a single good-intentioned reason to use it.
Like most spells in D&D, it can be used to simply win a fight, and used in that way it isn't notably cruel or inefficient. It's just a spell with very high abuse potential.
As for extending your lifespan, I don't see anything per se evil about that, the evil part is when you steal other people's bodies to do it. Just use clone.
Magic jar, for sure. It simultaneously expands your life span (arguably evil) and imprisons somebody else in a jar. I can't think of a single good-intentioned reason to use it.
I'm curious as to what arguments you had in mind that would make extending one's lifespan "arguably evil"?
I mean... people are supposed to die. I guess the fact that elves get to cheat kind of rocks the boat, but I still feel like a natural death is a thing to respect, 'cause otherwise a lot of things go to proverbial hell. I'm not a grave cleric, so I probably can't give the best argument, but I still feel like that's a very slippery slope.
Forever cheating death makes some sense to me. Your original phrasing was expanding life span which I was reacting to and would largely disagree with as being evil. I mean the past 150 years has seen humanity drastically increase our lifespans. Saving someone's life or improving their health through medicine is pretty universally seen as ethical. I can see that's not the sort of situation you were thinking of at the time, but if the practice of medicine essentially is about extending people's lifespan at what point does it turn from ethical to unethical?
I'll admit my own bias, my answer to if you could have any superpower I'd want selective immortality.
I think that’s pronounced “power word: kill” in D&D. Lol
Different name, same result. 😆 (Unless you have an insane amount of HP.)
Hmmm...Power Word Kill requires the target to have less than 100HP, but CR17 creatures (a medium encounter when you can get Power Word Kill) are between 199 and 341 starting HP (at least, the SRD ones do), so I wouldn't say it is the same result, since AK has a one hit kill feature ;) One is a one hit kill, the other delivers a coup de grace.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Hmmm...Power Word Kill requires the target to have less than 100HP, but CR17 creatures (a medium encounter when you can get Power Word Kill) are between 199 and 341 starting HP (at least, the SRD ones do), so I wouldn't say it is the same result, since AK has a one hit kill feature ;) One is a one hit kill, the other delivers a coup de grace.
Yeah, to most people who would be encountering Power Word Kill in D&D, it might not kill them. But realistically, who’s telling the story of the level 0 commoner who got Power Word Killed? Exactly no one, because that commoner didn’t stand a chance. So while most people who are facing it in a campaign may have a slightly different result then if it was avada kedavra, to 99.999% of the population, it won’t.
Also mild HP spoilers:
in book 7, (unless my memory has forsaken me just after I finished re-reading the series) multiple Death Eater curses bounce off Hagrid because he’s half-giant. Plenty of the Death Eaters in that it right we’re using avada kedavra, so it is plenty likely if not almost certain that Hagrid got hit by the killing curse and survived. Hagrid’s inability to die, likely even when faced with avada kedavra, is due to his giant skin, or what would be hit points in D&D. In short, if Hagrid really was hit by avada keedavra he survived due to what would mechanically be having high HP. Meaning that if this were the case, the reason everybody in HP (aside from Harry) got it by the killing curse and didn’t survive is because they had too low HP, so I’d argue that that and D&D’s power word kill are almost exactly the same.
I didn't see anyone rolling up to a dragon and AKing it.
They only used it on people and small animals. Low HP targets.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Encode Thoughts. If someone is bound you can literally lobotomize them one memory at a time. The spell is a cantrip so it takes nothing to do but if you wanted Detect Thoughts at level 2 allows you to replace memories or alter them as you desire.
Yeah, that spell doesn't kill a player. It forces them to find a therapist and it is a cantrip.
Like why did you become an adventurer? Oh, I don't remember someone removed that idea from my head. Or why do you hate this BBEG? Oh I did but that memory was replaced and now I work for them because I have a memory of them being my mother. Thag is right Strahd become my mother. Encode Thoughts. It is vile. Truly.
Encode Thoughts. If someone is bound you can literally lobotomize them one memory at a time. The spell is a cantrip so it takes nothing to do but if you wanted Detect Thoughts at level 2 allows you to replace memories or alter them as you desire.
Yeah, that spell doesn't kill a player. It forces them to find a therapist and it is a cantrip.
Like why did you become an adventurer? Oh, I don't remember someone removed that idea from my head. Or why do you hate this BBEG? Oh I did but that memory was replaced and now I work for them because I have a memory of them being my mother. Thag is right Strahd become my mother. Encode Thoughts. It is vile. Truly.
Encode Thoughts isn't permanent. After 8 hours it ends and the memory returns. The point of the spell isn't to permanently remove a memory - you need Modify Memory for that - but to secure knowledge or learn secrets from others (by combining with detect thoughts). The idea is that Dimir Agents use this on themselves to easily and discreetly transfer information between agents - since all agents would have have this. Agent A uses encode thoughts to form a thought strand containing the memory of the documents they read or the scene they spied on, and give this strand to Agent B who could then use the Encode Thoughts cantrip to receive the memory of that strand. After this the spell ends Agent A regains the memory but Agent B now has it as well.
Agent C goes and uses Detect Thoughts as they spy on a target and when perceiving a useful memory, they cast Encode Thoughts to get that memory as a strand. They can then use the cantrip and strand for other agents.
Agent D needs to clean up, somebody saw something they weren't supposed to. So they find the target and use Modify Memory to erase the memory while using Encode Thoughts to make a backup to relay to other agents.
So your argument is valid for Modify Memory, which does the actual erasing, not on Encode Thoughts which is temporary.
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I am afraid I need a definition of Evil for this purpose.
My usual go to would be something along the lines of petrification, but the basic problem is that a lot of the spells in 5e are different from prior versions, and way less evil, lol. Because Magic isn't evil, it's how you use it.
I mean, any spell can be used for evil purposes. The priest who uses cure wounds during a seven day long torture session makes cure wounds an evil spell.
so, yeah, I need a definition of evil, because I have decades of practice of coming up with ways that bad guys use the most innocuous spells to drive PCs nuts.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I think that’s pronounced “power word: kill” in D&D. Lol
Different name, same result. 😆 (Unless you have an insane amount of HP.)
Hmmm...Power Word Kill requires the target to have less than 100HP, but CR17 creatures (a medium encounter when you can get Power Word Kill) are between 199 and 341 starting HP (at least, the SRD ones do), so I wouldn't say it is the same result, since AK has a one hit kill feature ;) One is a one hit kill, the other delivers a coup de grace.
Harry Potter wizards are considerably less powerful than D&D wizards. They're completely dependent on having a wand to cast most of their spells, their spells are all single target, and they don't have a lot of versatility with their spells: pretty much all their defensive spells require your reaction and concentration. And there's a near-total lack of AOE spells. The end result is that most HP wizards are low enough level that PWK ought to pop them reliably.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I mean, any spell can be used for evil purposes. The priest who uses cure wounds during a seven day long torture session makes cure wounds an evil spell.
How does that make the cure wounds spell evil? Healing the victim of your torture isn't at all evil. The torture is the part of that situation which is evil. No?
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I mean, any spell can be used for evil purposes. The priest who uses cure wounds during a seven day long torture session makes cure wounds an evil spell.
How does that make the cure wounds spell evil? Healing the victim of your torture isn't at all evil. The torture is the part of that situation whichbis evil. No?
It depends on the definition of evil. In some ways, the use of cure wounds is part of the torture itself.
Folks who are trained in torture use a combination of kindness and cruelty as a matter of routine as it makes the torture far more effective and ultimately works to break the spirit of the victim, and shift their way of thinking. This is especially true when dealing with persons designated a enemies of the state or those who have critical information.
Torture is more than just inflicting pain, iow. It is also the changing of how the victim sees the world and thinks about the world around them.
Although, if you are the PC who is being tortured by such, you are probably going to be thinking "damn, that is evil, healing me so I don't die while you slowly dismember me alive".
And from a psychological standpoint, doing that would easily be enough to make someone who has experienced such think of cure wounds as an evil spell (massive PTSD) -- which is very evil.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
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and for regular folk, its an instakill generally if we go by commoner statblock
I would say that soul cage is probably the worst of the spells presented, because it's really just needless cruelty, you can do just about everything it does in another way, better, its only real use is tormenting people. Looking at some other spells discussed in this thread:
Magic jar, for sure. It simultaneously expands your life span (arguably evil) and imprisons somebody else in a jar. I can't think of a single good-intentioned reason to use it.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I'm curious as to what arguments you had in mind that would make extending one's lifespan "arguably evil"?
true strike hands down is the most evil spell in the game, its only purpose is to trick new players into playing poorly.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I mean... people are supposed to die. I guess the fact that elves get to cheat kind of rocks the boat, but I still feel like a natural death is a thing to respect, 'cause otherwise a lot of things go to proverbial hell. I'm not a grave cleric, so I probably can't give the best argument, but I still feel like that's a very slippery slope.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Like most spells in D&D, it can be used to simply win a fight, and used in that way it isn't notably cruel or inefficient. It's just a spell with very high abuse potential.
As for extending your lifespan, I don't see anything per se evil about that, the evil part is when you steal other people's bodies to do it. Just use clone.
avada kedavra
Updog
I think that’s pronounced “power word: kill” in D&D. Lol
Different name, same result. 😆 (Unless you have an insane amount of HP.)
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
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HERE.Forever cheating death makes some sense to me. Your original phrasing was expanding life span which I was reacting to and would largely disagree with as being evil. I mean the past 150 years has seen humanity drastically increase our lifespans. Saving someone's life or improving their health through medicine is pretty universally seen as ethical. I can see that's not the sort of situation you were thinking of at the time, but if the practice of medicine essentially is about extending people's lifespan at what point does it turn from ethical to unethical?
I'll admit my own bias, my answer to if you could have any superpower I'd want selective immortality.
Hmmm...Power Word Kill requires the target to have less than 100HP, but CR17 creatures (a medium encounter when you can get Power Word Kill) are between 199 and 341 starting HP (at least, the SRD ones do), so I wouldn't say it is the same result, since AK has a one hit kill feature ;) One is a one hit kill, the other delivers a coup de grace.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Yeah, to most people who would be encountering Power Word Kill in D&D, it might not kill them. But realistically, who’s telling the story of the level 0 commoner who got Power Word Killed? Exactly no one, because that commoner didn’t stand a chance. So while most people who are facing it in a campaign may have a slightly different result then if it was avada kedavra, to 99.999% of the population, it won’t.
Also mild HP spoilers:
in book 7, (unless my memory has forsaken me just after I finished re-reading the series) multiple Death Eater curses bounce off Hagrid because he’s half-giant. Plenty of the Death Eaters in that it right we’re using avada kedavra, so it is plenty likely if not almost certain that Hagrid got hit by the killing curse and survived. Hagrid’s inability to die, likely even when faced with avada kedavra, is due to his giant skin, or what would be hit points in D&D. In short, if Hagrid really was hit by avada keedavra he survived due to what would mechanically be having high HP. Meaning that if this were the case, the reason everybody in HP (aside from Harry) got it by the killing curse and didn’t survive is because they had too low HP, so I’d argue that that and D&D’s power word kill are almost exactly the same.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.I didn't see anyone rolling up to a dragon and AKing it.
They only used it on people and small animals. Low HP targets.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
None of the above.
Encode Thoughts. If someone is bound you can literally lobotomize them one memory at a time. The spell is a cantrip so it takes nothing to do but if you wanted Detect Thoughts at level 2 allows you to replace memories or alter them as you desire.
Yeah, that spell doesn't kill a player. It forces them to find a therapist and it is a cantrip.
Like why did you become an adventurer? Oh, I don't remember someone removed that idea from my head. Or why do you hate this BBEG? Oh I did but that memory was replaced and now I work for them because I have a memory of them being my mother. Thag is right Strahd become my mother. Encode Thoughts. It is vile. Truly.
"Life is Cast by Random Dice"
Burn my candle twice.
I have done my life justice
Against random dice.
Encode Thoughts isn't permanent. After 8 hours it ends and the memory returns. The point of the spell isn't to permanently remove a memory - you need Modify Memory for that - but to secure knowledge or learn secrets from others (by combining with detect thoughts). The idea is that Dimir Agents use this on themselves to easily and discreetly transfer information between agents - since all agents would have have this. Agent A uses encode thoughts to form a thought strand containing the memory of the documents they read or the scene they spied on, and give this strand to Agent B who could then use the Encode Thoughts cantrip to receive the memory of that strand. After this the spell ends Agent A regains the memory but Agent B now has it as well.
Agent C goes and uses Detect Thoughts as they spy on a target and when perceiving a useful memory, they cast Encode Thoughts to get that memory as a strand. They can then use the cantrip and strand for other agents.
Agent D needs to clean up, somebody saw something they weren't supposed to. So they find the target and use Modify Memory to erase the memory while using Encode Thoughts to make a backup to relay to other agents.
So your argument is valid for Modify Memory, which does the actual erasing, not on Encode Thoughts which is temporary.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
I am afraid I need a definition of Evil for this purpose.
My usual go to would be something along the lines of petrification, but the basic problem is that a lot of the spells in 5e are different from prior versions, and way less evil, lol. Because Magic isn't evil, it's how you use it.
I mean, any spell can be used for evil purposes. The priest who uses cure wounds during a seven day long torture session makes cure wounds an evil spell.
so, yeah, I need a definition of evil, because I have decades of practice of coming up with ways that bad guys use the most innocuous spells to drive PCs nuts.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Harry Potter wizards are considerably less powerful than D&D wizards. They're completely dependent on having a wand to cast most of their spells, their spells are all single target, and they don't have a lot of versatility with their spells: pretty much all their defensive spells require your reaction and concentration. And there's a near-total lack of AOE spells. The end result is that most HP wizards are low enough level that PWK ought to pop them reliably.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
How does that make the cure wounds spell evil? Healing the victim of your torture isn't at all evil. The torture is the part of that situation which is evil. No?
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
It depends on the definition of evil. In some ways, the use of cure wounds is part of the torture itself.
Folks who are trained in torture use a combination of kindness and cruelty as a matter of routine as it makes the torture far more effective and ultimately works to break the spirit of the victim, and shift their way of thinking. This is especially true when dealing with persons designated a enemies of the state or those who have critical information.
Torture is more than just inflicting pain, iow. It is also the changing of how the victim sees the world and thinks about the world around them.
Although, if you are the PC who is being tortured by such, you are probably going to be thinking "damn, that is evil, healing me so I don't die while you slowly dismember me alive".
And from a psychological standpoint, doing that would easily be enough to make someone who has experienced such think of cure wounds as an evil spell (massive PTSD) -- which is very evil.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds