Simple question but not necessarily easy to answer
I'm guessing bigger city like Waterdeep would have some?
I haven't seen much description about glasses ....except glassteel googling for it...so i don't really know how common it is.... i mean you could technically have canon and pistol...from the GM book...and classes.....although it really doesn't feel like it is a common thing....doesn't feel like pirates are running around with canon ships nor dwarf defending Tower Adbar with canons....so i'm guessing just rare artificer or others...feels though that the world is not there yet...
As i'm getting a hold of what towns looks like from reading the Swordcoast Aventurer's Guide and then the campaign i'm about to embark on: Storm's King Thunder... i'm trying to lay out what the cities looks like for narrative purpose. Chapter 3 of the books really says that adventurer will venture pretty much everywhere...
I'm thinking it will be year 1489 when we start playing....not that it really matter much....but i'd like to keep it as close as possible as what the Forgotten Realm is rather than just invent whatever is on the top of my head...
Maybe look at it like this: If you're poor, you're either renting or building your own home with help from your neighbors. Landlords being landlords, they're unlikely to put windows in a home for the poor. And as for neighbors, they can likely build a log or plank house, and thatch a roof, but they cannot make glass, and being poor, buying is out of the question.
So poor people's homes have wooden shutters.
Richer people - anyone with the means to buy or build a house (paying carpenters and bricklayers and so on) - can propably also afford to put glass in the windows.
Or ... the metric I'd go with: Districts. In the city center and higher income areas, glass will be all but universal, and in poorer areas, around the docks, near the tanneries and livestock pens and so on, shutters will be universal.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Well in real life we've had glass windows for almost 2,000 years. Not even since "medieval" times but further back to "ancient" times. So many city homes would have glass windows. Non-glass windows would be more typical of small villages or poor towns.
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Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Well in real life we've had glass windows for almost 2,000 years. Not even since "medieval" times but further back to "ancient" times. So many city homes would have glass windows. Non-glass windows would be more typical of small villages or poor towns.
Glass has never been cheap, though - not even today.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Just because a technology was available, doesn't mean it was widely used. Most people didn't own metal armour, despite it being around for just as long.
As for how common, I'm not a professional historian or anything, but having a look around there are few things of interest. It really depends on the period you are setting your adventures in. This is (probably intentionally) left blank for FR as far as I can tell, so you need to fill that in. Glazed windows apparently start becoming common in the 1600s and became common in the 1700s. Before then, it would likely have been down to the wealth of the owner. The further back you go, the higher the bar for wealth before you'd start seeing glass windows. Since I'm not a fan of firearms (in a fantasy setting), I would set mine fairly early, and so you'd expect very few glass windows. Perhaps in a church or in the palace.
However, that's historically speaking. In a fantasy world with magic? Things like glazed windows would likely spread through the economic strata earlier and faster. How fast would depend on the culture and how widespread magic really is, and so forth.
That said, as a DM, what you're doing is far closer to writing a novel than a history. Whether it's realistic or not is very much secondary as to whether it communicates the right tone and atmosphere. You just need to ensure that it's not immersion breaking, like having walls of shining glass akin to modern NYC. Beyond that, just describe the general tone and feel. If you want to remark on the novel presence of glass windows, then do so. Otherwise, just let the players fill in the gaps. The presence of glass is only really pertinent if the players decide to defenestrate someone.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
So .. I checked up, a bit. Glass windows started to become a thing in Denmark in the 17-hundreds - and would initially be just royals, nobility, churches, and the occasional very rich merchant. The individual panes would be quite small, the actual window put together of many small, handblown pieces. For larger windows, you'd need to actually further divide the window by supports, to make it structurally strong enough. So a 2mX2m window would be divided in four by wooden supports, and each 50cmX50cm window would then be divided into several even small lead fitted panes.
These would be prohibitively expensive, requiring weeks of manual work for just one window. Not until 1930 was it possible to machine produce larger panes of stretched glass - which will have done much to make it available for everyone.
Actually, windows often had paper coverings. Sadly, my source says nothing about how widespread this was. Thin, translucent skin or leather was also an option.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
In a slightly older book - Elminster's Forgotten Realms, theres a section that I'll quote:
Glass is common in some parts of the Realms and as rare as gold and gems in others. In most places, windows are leaded affairs of many small panes rather than huge rectangular unbroken panes. Moreover, most glass is "shifty" - full of bubbles and uneven thicknesses and whorls that distort reflections and anything seen through them.
Shutters are the norm: in winter, full overlapping boards sealing with pitch, and in summer, slats over which layers of gauze are tacked. The gauze keeps the insects out, and if the dust gets bad, occupants wer down the gauze to impede it. The abodes of the poor have shutters, but lack glass, and some homes have frames around openings into which boards are slid on a daily basis, but precious glass can be used on special occasions, such as royal visits and marriages.
I hope that helps a little - I would recommend the book if oyu are after these kinds of details:
Well in real life we've had glass windows for almost 2,000 years. Not even since "medieval" times but further back to "ancient" times. So many city homes would have glass windows. Non-glass windows would be more typical of small villages or poor towns.
Glass has never been cheap, though - not even today.
No it's not cheap, but not super expensive either, since it's not difficult to make and even I have made a window before.
This is why I said "many city homes" and further clarified that non-glass windows were more typical of poorer places or where it would costs more due to travel such as small villages and poor towns.
Throughout this country, even several centuries ago, it was more common to have glass windows than non-glass in most towns and every city. Now, this wouldn't be the same in every country, of course. But it's not like this is some "only for the richest of people" thing.
And it's the cost of install that gets you - not the glass itself.
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Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
In additional to the IRL History presented, considering the production...
Anything molded is, more or less, created by:
heating something to melting point (without combusting or similar) and letting cool
creating some kind of slurry (cement/puddy/goo/whatevs) which is allowed to dry
magic!!
Metal and Glass are of course the same and additionally, are typically crystalline structures as a solid.
Blah, blah, blah, basically, you get this stuff (metal/glass) anytime you heat/melt rock/sediment really high. Glass and ceramics come from melted rock and of course, metal if you're lucky to find ore (metal infused rock, right?). So it can occur naturally and within civilization with a relatively high degree of spontaneity - glass especially since all you really need is sand and a quality heat source (oven/furnace), which could be as simple as a pit in the ground with proper stoneware.
Rocket science to a caveman, but in D&D realms, infused by magic, glass could easily be extremely abundant provided the environment has the stability to allow for the preservation of generational knowledge/education, furnaces + fuel, and the glass itself (like, war and wilderness tends to be hard on glass and the basic infrastructure required to produce significant amounts of it so you wouldn't expect to find much there).
Otherwise, how much can be produced? Well, how many workers (+ magic?) do you have who can tend furnaces (+ magic?) to produce roughly equal amounts of sand-to-glass by weight (+ magic?); how many furnaces (+ magic?) are available; how much of and where are the resources (+ magic?) including fuel (+ magic?) like sand for furnaces and glass production and wood for structures and fuel plus food and beer for workers (+++ magic?); and how is the glass delivered/sold (+ magic?)? In addition to any magical elements, do you have any skilled workers/tools (reference DMG for downtime activities/tradesmen)?
Don't sweat the deets, but each of those questions can be referenced in the Core Books for useful estimates, market values, and consumption rates for any type of industry/company - just ask yourself, what do they do, what do they do it with, who do they do it with, where do they do it, and how many are "they".
Again, don't sweat the details, we just want a rough idea for how much glass products go for by weight (look at glass bottles - 2gp at 2lbs each; bam - glass is a minimum of 1gp/lb at market; nothing to shrug at for a commoner) and maybe how much a labor camp of 20 workers might eat and drink. Otherwise, you're basically determining whether or not a "Lumber Camp" which produces glass instead of wood products could exist in proximity to your settlement and/or ships to your settlement.
Like, 20 ppl working year-round to make glass for a village of twice as many people are likely going to have a hard time selling enough glass, regardless of how much they actually produce, to support themselves - especially given the cost unless on some established trade route their wares can safely travel. On the other hand, Waterdeep could likely support over a hundred unskilled glass producers and keep up w/ demand without pulling workers from "more important jobs" like farming. Considering how much food Waterdeep would go through, even with magic, you'd have to have a large portion of the population who only works farms. Then merchants and tradesmen, which would likely include glass workers. Once you have a lot of local tradesmen and merchants (which Waterdeep certainly would) you get into Imports/Exports (which is already beyond the capacity of say, 10 Towns). After that, the sky is the limit. You may have tradesmen who only make wind-up goblin and gnome toys (also likely in Waterdeep) and people who do nothing but hoard wealth (not that small towns don't run that risk - there's just typically less wealth to hoard and wealth tends to be very vulnerable in the wilderness given the nature of things)
Well that is sure some great answer and among those, some really detailed one. Thank you everyone for your input, i'll take this into consideration, the book as well.
My take so far, i'm not looking into comparing to real life world as this is fantasy although it can always give an idea. Searching for artwork of Waterdeep, i could see that they seem to be part of the decord....and i think it can be like world of warcraft classic....something opaque ....
And like i've seen a few times, richer ppl (noble) and bigger city (the wealthier portion) may be able to afford this...so it creates the narrative distinction i was looking for...
No it's not cheap, but not super expensive either, since it's not difficult to make and even I have made a window before.
And it's the cost of install that gets you - not the glass itself.
Cities were packed tight with dirt poor laborers, way up even into the 19-hundreds. Glass became manageable in price when it became possible to produce it by machine, on an industrial scale. Before that, it took - literally - weeks of manual work by skilled hands to create ... a window. Depending on size, obviously. But yes, when I say weeks, that includes the installation. It is, after all, not really a window until it's been put in.
I'd like a source on this country where glass was common centuries ago. Depending, of course, on how many centuries we're talking about. I'll gladly grant you that a couple of centuries ago, glass had largely replaced shutters and so on. 300? Meh, less so. 400? Hell no!
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Glass is nearly 5000 years old, blown glass around 2000 years. Raw unadulterated/treated glass generally has a greenish or brownish tint to it other colors come from small additions of specific materials to clear and then tint the glass. ( a deep crimson color is given by adding gold). Clear glass window panes were, until the early 20th century, made by blowing a long cylinder of clear glass, carefully cutting off the ends then scoring/cutting a line down the cylinder and heating it to near melting again so it would open up and then lay flat. As might be expected the quality was highly variable often bubbly and uneven in thickness causing distortions in viewing. Some of this could be eliminated by rolling with read hot iron rollers to press out bubbles and even up the thicknesss but it was a slow, process done by ( for the time) highly skilled workers. So valuable we’re these workers that n Venice in the 1200-1400 period they were housed and worked on a separate island where they could be monitored and prevented from leaving on pain of death for not only them but their entire family. Eventually some of the glass workers escaped and spread glass making to France, England and elsewhere but it was still expensive and time consuming. Alternatives included oiled paper, oiled skins and, “isinglass” - fairly clear sheets of Muscovite mica from large “books” of mica ( some nearly 2 feet across). These had the added value of being fairly fire and heat resistant and so were used in furnace and stove/oven windows so you could see into the fire or melt to monitor it. Modern plate glass is typically made by pouring very hot liquid glass onto reverberating, spinning trays of molten tin so the glass spreads out into an even bubble less layer that is cooled the slid off the tray and cut to size. Much faster and easier and far less skilled labor required.
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Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
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Simple question but not necessarily easy to answer
I'm guessing bigger city like Waterdeep would have some?
I haven't seen much description about glasses ....except glassteel googling for it...so i don't really know how common it is.... i mean you could technically have canon and pistol...from the GM book...and classes.....although it really doesn't feel like it is a common thing....doesn't feel like pirates are running around with canon ships nor dwarf defending Tower Adbar with canons....so i'm guessing just rare artificer or others...feels though that the world is not there yet...
As i'm getting a hold of what towns looks like from reading the Swordcoast Aventurer's Guide and then the campaign i'm about to embark on: Storm's King Thunder... i'm trying to lay out what the cities looks like for narrative purpose. Chapter 3 of the books really says that adventurer will venture pretty much everywhere...
I'm thinking it will be year 1489 when we start playing....not that it really matter much....but i'd like to keep it as close as possible as what the Forgotten Realm is rather than just invent whatever is on the top of my head...
I think it's mostly up to you to decide.
Maybe look at it like this: If you're poor, you're either renting or building your own home with help from your neighbors. Landlords being landlords, they're unlikely to put windows in a home for the poor. And as for neighbors, they can likely build a log or plank house, and thatch a roof, but they cannot make glass, and being poor, buying is out of the question.
So poor people's homes have wooden shutters.
Richer people - anyone with the means to buy or build a house (paying carpenters and bricklayers and so on) - can propably also afford to put glass in the windows.
Or ... the metric I'd go with: Districts. In the city center and higher income areas, glass will be all but universal, and in poorer areas, around the docks, near the tanneries and livestock pens and so on, shutters will be universal.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Well in real life we've had glass windows for almost 2,000 years. Not even since "medieval" times but further back to "ancient" times. So many city homes would have glass windows. Non-glass windows would be more typical of small villages or poor towns.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Glass has never been cheap, though - not even today.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Just because a technology was available, doesn't mean it was widely used. Most people didn't own metal armour, despite it being around for just as long.
As for how common, I'm not a professional historian or anything, but having a look around there are few things of interest. It really depends on the period you are setting your adventures in. This is (probably intentionally) left blank for FR as far as I can tell, so you need to fill that in. Glazed windows apparently start becoming common in the 1600s and became common in the 1700s. Before then, it would likely have been down to the wealth of the owner. The further back you go, the higher the bar for wealth before you'd start seeing glass windows. Since I'm not a fan of firearms (in a fantasy setting), I would set mine fairly early, and so you'd expect very few glass windows. Perhaps in a church or in the palace.
However, that's historically speaking. In a fantasy world with magic? Things like glazed windows would likely spread through the economic strata earlier and faster. How fast would depend on the culture and how widespread magic really is, and so forth.
That said, as a DM, what you're doing is far closer to writing a novel than a history. Whether it's realistic or not is very much secondary as to whether it communicates the right tone and atmosphere. You just need to ensure that it's not immersion breaking, like having walls of shining glass akin to modern NYC. Beyond that, just describe the general tone and feel. If you want to remark on the novel presence of glass windows, then do so. Otherwise, just let the players fill in the gaps. The presence of glass is only really pertinent if the players decide to defenestrate someone.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
So .. I checked up, a bit. Glass windows started to become a thing in Denmark in the 17-hundreds - and would initially be just royals, nobility, churches, and the occasional very rich merchant. The individual panes would be quite small, the actual window put together of many small, handblown pieces. For larger windows, you'd need to actually further divide the window by supports, to make it structurally strong enough. So a 2mX2m window would be divided in four by wooden supports, and each 50cmX50cm window would then be divided into several even small lead fitted panes.
These would be prohibitively expensive, requiring weeks of manual work for just one window. Not until 1930 was it possible to machine produce larger panes of stretched glass - which will have done much to make it available for everyone.
Actually, windows often had paper coverings. Sadly, my source says nothing about how widespread this was. Thin, translucent skin or leather was also an option.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
In a slightly older book - Elminster's Forgotten Realms, theres a section that I'll quote:
I hope that helps a little - I would recommend the book if oyu are after these kinds of details:
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/166568/Ed-Greenwood-Presents-Elminsters-Forgotten-Realms
Glass windows were invented in the mundane world over 2000 years ago.
Probably not a thing the developers thought worth mentioning.
No it's not cheap, but not super expensive either, since it's not difficult to make and even I have made a window before.
This is why I said "many city homes" and further clarified that non-glass windows were more typical of poorer places or where it would costs more due to travel such as small villages and poor towns.
Throughout this country, even several centuries ago, it was more common to have glass windows than non-glass in most towns and every city. Now, this wouldn't be the same in every country, of course. But it's not like this is some "only for the richest of people" thing.
And it's the cost of install that gets you - not the glass itself.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
In additional to the IRL History presented, considering the production...
Anything molded is, more or less, created by:
Metal and Glass are of course the same and additionally, are typically crystalline structures as a solid.
Blah, blah, blah, basically, you get this stuff (metal/glass) anytime you heat/melt rock/sediment really high. Glass and ceramics come from melted rock and of course, metal if you're lucky to find ore (metal infused rock, right?). So it can occur naturally and within civilization with a relatively high degree of spontaneity - glass especially since all you really need is sand and a quality heat source (oven/furnace), which could be as simple as a pit in the ground with proper stoneware.
Rocket science to a caveman, but in D&D realms, infused by magic, glass could easily be extremely abundant provided the environment has the stability to allow for the preservation of generational knowledge/education, furnaces + fuel, and the glass itself (like, war and wilderness tends to be hard on glass and the basic infrastructure required to produce significant amounts of it so you wouldn't expect to find much there).
Otherwise, how much can be produced? Well, how many workers (+ magic?) do you have who can tend furnaces (+ magic?) to produce roughly equal amounts of sand-to-glass by weight (+ magic?); how many furnaces (+ magic?) are available; how much of and where are the resources (+ magic?) including fuel (+ magic?) like sand for furnaces and glass production and wood for structures and fuel plus food and beer for workers (+++ magic?); and how is the glass delivered/sold (+ magic?)? In addition to any magical elements, do you have any skilled workers/tools (reference DMG for downtime activities/tradesmen)?
Don't sweat the deets, but each of those questions can be referenced in the Core Books for useful estimates, market values, and consumption rates for any type of industry/company - just ask yourself, what do they do, what do they do it with, who do they do it with, where do they do it, and how many are "they".
Again, don't sweat the details, we just want a rough idea for how much glass products go for by weight (look at glass bottles - 2gp at 2lbs each; bam - glass is a minimum of 1gp/lb at market; nothing to shrug at for a commoner) and maybe how much a labor camp of 20 workers might eat and drink. Otherwise, you're basically determining whether or not a "Lumber Camp" which produces glass instead of wood products could exist in proximity to your settlement and/or ships to your settlement.
Like, 20 ppl working year-round to make glass for a village of twice as many people are likely going to have a hard time selling enough glass, regardless of how much they actually produce, to support themselves - especially given the cost unless on some established trade route their wares can safely travel. On the other hand, Waterdeep could likely support over a hundred unskilled glass producers and keep up w/ demand without pulling workers from "more important jobs" like farming. Considering how much food Waterdeep would go through, even with magic, you'd have to have a large portion of the population who only works farms. Then merchants and tradesmen, which would likely include glass workers. Once you have a lot of local tradesmen and merchants (which Waterdeep certainly would) you get into Imports/Exports (which is already beyond the capacity of say, 10 Towns). After that, the sky is the limit. You may have tradesmen who only make wind-up goblin and gnome toys (also likely in Waterdeep) and people who do nothing but hoard wealth (not that small towns don't run that risk - there's just typically less wealth to hoard and wealth tends to be very vulnerable in the wilderness given the nature of things)
Well that is sure some great answer and among those, some really detailed one. Thank you everyone for your input, i'll take this into consideration, the book as well.
My take so far, i'm not looking into comparing to real life world as this is fantasy although it can always give an idea. Searching for artwork of Waterdeep, i could see that they seem to be part of the decord....and i think it can be like world of warcraft classic....something opaque ....
And like i've seen a few times, richer ppl (noble) and bigger city (the wealthier portion) may be able to afford this...so it creates the narrative distinction i was looking for...
Cities were packed tight with dirt poor laborers, way up even into the 19-hundreds. Glass became manageable in price when it became possible to produce it by machine, on an industrial scale. Before that, it took - literally - weeks of manual work by skilled hands to create ... a window. Depending on size, obviously. But yes, when I say weeks, that includes the installation. It is, after all, not really a window until it's been put in.
I'd like a source on this country where glass was common centuries ago. Depending, of course, on how many centuries we're talking about. I'll gladly grant you that a couple of centuries ago, glass had largely replaced shutters and so on. 300? Meh, less so. 400? Hell no!
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Glass is nearly 5000 years old, blown glass around 2000 years. Raw unadulterated/treated glass generally has a greenish or brownish tint to it other colors come from small additions of specific materials to clear and then tint the glass. ( a deep crimson color is given by adding gold). Clear glass window panes were, until the early 20th century, made by blowing a long cylinder of clear glass, carefully cutting off the ends then scoring/cutting a line down the cylinder and heating it to near melting again so it would open up and then lay flat. As might be expected the quality was highly variable often bubbly and uneven in thickness causing distortions in viewing. Some of this could be eliminated by rolling with read hot iron rollers to press out bubbles and even up the thicknesss but it was a slow, process done by ( for the time) highly skilled workers. So valuable we’re these workers that n Venice in the 1200-1400 period they were housed and worked on a separate island where they could be monitored and prevented from leaving on pain of death for not only them but their entire family. Eventually some of the glass workers escaped and spread glass making to France, England and elsewhere but it was still expensive and time consuming. Alternatives included oiled paper, oiled skins and, “isinglass” - fairly clear sheets of Muscovite mica from large “books” of mica ( some nearly 2 feet across). These had the added value of being fairly fire and heat resistant and so were used in furnace and stove/oven windows so you could see into the fire or melt to monitor it. Modern plate glass is typically made by pouring very hot liquid glass onto reverberating, spinning trays of molten tin so the glass spreads out into an even bubble less layer that is cooled the slid off the tray and cut to size. Much faster and easier and far less skilled labor required.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.