Little background. Playing a Ranger and at level 2 picked the Druidic Warrior fighting style, and of course, picked up Shillelagh and Magic Stone. My plan is to use wisdom for my main stat for Melee attacks, Range attacks, Spells and skills (Dex being the second and equal stat). Will be going Swarmkeeper and a few of those abilities and spells require high spell saves to counter.
"But Magic stones are less powerful than a Longbow, and less range than a Short bow." I was told. and that person was right. However, I am not comparing magic stones to bows (of which my character does have one for long-range reasons) but to their cousin, the Javelin.
Magic Stone free 1d6 Magic Bludging average of . 035 ounces Thrown (range 60)
So with this in mind let's break it down.
Free is better than buying. During a short rest, I can easily see my character relaxing by a body of water, picking up a pebbles to refill his ammo. Alternatively, finding a shop in a town to buy and have the 5 silver to get 1 Javelin is a no comparison. Heck, I would pay 5 kids, 1 silver each to collect 20 good pebbles each for me.
Damage is the same at the base, with one being piercing and one magic bludging. A win for anything magic at level 2 and beyond.
Weight. This is where it gets fun. A quick internet search has an average on a pebble as .035oz. Let's just use the high end at 0.1 oz. There is 32 oz in 2 pounds (the weight of a Javelin). 32oz /0.1oz per pebble = 320 pebbles. a full 160x more ammo for the same weight. A Sling also has no weight and would complete the package.
"But the range is different" Yes and no. Javelins have a short/long or 30/120. Anything beyond 30 is a disadvantage roll. Magic stones is a 1.5x the short range with no long-range (for long range use a Sling (same range as a Javelin) or the prementioned bows).
So to conclude this part, Magic stones do better damage, cost less, have more ammo per pound, and with a better range. Concealment is not mentioned but a hand full of pebbles in a pocket is less obvious than 3 javelins on your back. However, the comparisons do not stop there. With this mindset of using magic stones to replace Javelins, there are some tactical considerations to be aware of.
It is a one-hand weapon. You can use a shield (+ AC), or have an off-hand weapon/focus/prepared object/handing off a rope/ etc. and still throw the pebbles. I would also argue that a pebble are equal to a light/ thrown weapon and could be used with a two-handed bonus attack (use those rules of course)
Versatility. being able to use your spell-casting attack bonus when thrown, or your Dex when used with a sling, not only opens up more range but also other forms of attacks . Some spells, abilities, etc could benefit from this.
There is some dispute if you use Dex for the sling or your Magic ability. That's beyond the scope of this post, however, my belief is that the cantrip simply makes magic ammo and you use it appropriately.
Action economy. The ability to hand these off to another person for 1 min and use your combat modifiers means more attacks, more damage. Those kids mentioned before just became my personal turrets, while I use my attacks and bonus action for something else. Handing a bow or Javelin to an NPC might not have the same desired results. Do not forget, there is three stone, each with its own target, damage roll, and a chance to critical*.
You do use up your bonus action to cast the cantrip, and this might be an issue for some builds. but with three pebbles, and 1 extra attack, I feel that the rotation of rounds would be not an issue.
Now is this for everyone? Every build? No. but for those that can use either, I believe that Magic stones are the obvious winner. Does it scale well? Well... No, and yes. No, but also Javelins (non-magical) do not either and that is what we are comparing to. Yes in that you can add some class benefits (sneak attack with a sling) which would improve this as well. I am also a fan of realism and a sling in real life was a very useful weapon in skilled hands, even used today in an age of firearms.
Last notable benefit is that with Druidic Warrior the character is not fixed in this method of fighting. The cantrips can be changed out per level, and when the Magic Stones stop being effective, another cantrip might be what's needed.
Please don’t take those kids on your adventure to use as “turrets” LOL
it’s an interesting idea to build your character that way. Hope you have fun with it. I do think it can get a little dicey with the bonus action depending on if you are using Hunters Mark and need to move that around as well.
You can use the swarm, when you get it, to add damage once on your turn, even at range so that’s a plus.
And you are right that if it isn’t working out you can always switch to another cantrip and still use your Wis for those attack rolls or saves.
But even though you could argue that it is equal to a light/thrown weapon it isn’t. Pebbles are objects not weapons and don’t have weapon properties and I wouldn’t consider them as such. But maybe your DM is nicer than me 😇
The ability bonus you're using has a pretty important impact. Str vs Wis, unless you're rolling I'd assume str is a dump stat and wis is a 2nd or 3rd stat.
The ability bonus you're using has a pretty important impact. Str vs Wis, unless you're rolling I'd assume str is a dump stat and wis is a 2nd or 3rd stat.
According to the OP WIS is primary stat with DEX secondary (both equal now but looks like they are raising WIS first
Please don’t take those kids on your adventure to use as “turrets” LOL
it’s an interesting idea to build your character that way. Hope you have fun with it. I do think it can get a little dicey with the bonus action depending on if you are using Hunters Mark and need to move that around as well.
You can use the swarm, when you get it, to add damage once on your turn, even at range so that’s a plus.
And you are right that if it isn’t working out you can always switch to another cantrip and still use your Wis for those attack rolls or saves.
But even though you could argue that it is equal to a light/thrown weapon it isn’t. Pebbles are objects not weapons and don’t have weapon properties and I wouldn’t consider them as such. But maybe your DM is nicer than me 😇
LOL.. yeah, no I won't be taking the kids on an adventure. I skipped on hunters mark for more AOE CC (fog cloud/ spike growth)
Yes, with the use of the s Swarm I plan to do a lot of push & pull attacks (see spike growth)
Pebbles might not be a weapon, however, I would argue (debate) that as an improvised weapon a .1oz pebble (stone) could follow the two-handed weapon fighting rules. But as you said mentioned, DM dependant. )
The ability bonus you're using has a pretty important impact. Str vs Wis, unless you're rolling I'd assume str is a dump stat and wis is a 2nd or 3rd stat.
According to the OP WIS is primary stat with DEX secondary (both equal now but looks like they are raising WIS first
Yeap, pretty much. Aiming for more of a Gish type Ranger, so Str is my dump stat (as a Half-Orc it still allows for a neutral stat) then everything else is dumped into Wis/Dex/Con/Chr /int in that order.
Some good stuff there, especially the "magic weapon" bit (my party moaned about fighting shadow with nonmagical weapons last year, completely ignoring that they had magic weapon, magic stone, and shillelagh all available). I wish my players would use these spells more, but the only weapon cantrips they ever want to use are greenflame blade and booming blade.
Magic stone does have a few downsides.
You can use a javelin when you are stealthy. Not so for the spell.
Stabbing someone standing next to you with the javelin is a normal roll, not at disadvantage.
I don't see how a two-handed attack does anything for a magic stone. Magic is propelling it, not the physical body (shown by the fact that it uses the caster's attack bonus, not the attacker's).
Sneak attack will not apply. Magic stone is a ranged spell attack. Sneak attack requires a ranged weapon or a melee weapon. The sgoes for many smite features and the various smite spells, sadly.
There is no dispute about versatility. Whether you or someone else is throwing the magic stone by hand or using a sling to throw it, the attack uses the caster's spell attack bonus and damage bonus (based on their spellcasting modifier) because it is a ranged spell attack.
Little background. Playing a Ranger and at level 2 picked the Druidic Warrior fighting style, and of course, picked up Shillelagh and Magic Stone. My plan is to use wisdom for my main stat for Melee attacks, Range attacks, Spells and skills (Dex being the second and equal stat). Will be going Swarmkeeper and a few of those abilities and spells require high spell saves to counter.
"But Magic stones are less powerful than a Longbow, and less range than a Short bow." I was told. and that person was right. However, I am not comparing magic stones to bows (of which my character does have one for long-range reasons) but to their cousin, the Javelin.
Here is a side-by-side.
Magic Stone free 1d6 Magic Bludging average of . 035 ounces Thrown (range 60)
So with this in mind let's break it down.
So to conclude this part, Magic stones do better damage, cost less, have more ammo per pound, and with a better range. Concealment is not mentioned but a hand full of pebbles in a pocket is less obvious than 3 javelins on your back. However, the comparisons do not stop there. With this mindset of using magic stones to replace Javelins, there are some tactical considerations to be aware of.
There is some dispute if you use Dex for the sling or your Magic ability. That's beyond the scope of this post, however, my belief is that the cantrip simply makes magic ammo and you use it appropriately.
Now is this for everyone? Every build? No. but for those that can use either, I believe that Magic stones are the obvious winner. Does it scale well? Well... No, and yes. No, but also Javelins (non-magical) do not either and that is what we are comparing to. Yes in that you can add some class benefits (sneak attack with a sling) which would improve this as well. I am also a fan of realism and a sling in real life was a very useful weapon in skilled hands, even used today in an age of firearms.
Last notable benefit is that with Druidic Warrior the character is not fixed in this method of fighting. The cantrips can be changed out per level, and when the Magic Stones stop being effective, another cantrip might be what's needed.
Next up ... Shillelagh > a Warhammer
Next up: Warlock Smites > Paladin Smites.
Please don’t take those kids on your adventure to use as “turrets” LOL
it’s an interesting idea to build your character that way. Hope you have fun with it. I do think it can get a little dicey with the bonus action depending on if you are using Hunters Mark and need to move that around as well.
You can use the swarm, when you get it, to add damage once on your turn, even at range so that’s a plus.
And you are right that if it isn’t working out you can always switch to another cantrip and still use your Wis for those attack rolls or saves.
But even though you could argue that it is equal to a light/thrown weapon it isn’t. Pebbles are objects not weapons and don’t have weapon properties and I wouldn’t consider them as such. But maybe your DM is nicer than me 😇
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
The ability bonus you're using has a pretty important impact. Str vs Wis, unless you're rolling I'd assume str is a dump stat and wis is a 2nd or 3rd stat.
According to the OP WIS is primary stat with DEX secondary (both equal now but looks like they are raising WIS first
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
LOL.. yeah, no I won't be taking the kids on an adventure. I skipped on hunters mark for more AOE CC (fog cloud/ spike growth)
Yes, with the use of the s Swarm I plan to do a lot of push & pull attacks (see spike growth)
Pebbles might not be a weapon, however, I would argue (debate) that as an improvised weapon a .1oz pebble (stone) could follow the two-handed weapon fighting rules. But as you said mentioned, DM dependant. )
.... kinda have to agree on this one...lol.
Yeap, pretty much. Aiming for more of a Gish type Ranger, so Str is my dump stat (as a Half-Orc it still allows for a neutral stat) then everything else is dumped into Wis/Dex/Con/Chr /int in that order.
Some good stuff there, especially the "magic weapon" bit (my party moaned about fighting shadow with nonmagical weapons last year, completely ignoring that they had magic weapon, magic stone, and shillelagh all available). I wish my players would use these spells more, but the only weapon cantrips they ever want to use are greenflame blade and booming blade.
Magic stone does have a few downsides.
You can use a javelin when you are stealthy. Not so for the spell.
Stabbing someone standing next to you with the javelin is a normal roll, not at disadvantage.
I don't see how a two-handed attack does anything for a magic stone. Magic is propelling it, not the physical body (shown by the fact that it uses the caster's attack bonus, not the attacker's).
Sneak attack will not apply. Magic stone is a ranged spell attack. Sneak attack requires a ranged weapon or a melee weapon. The sgoes for many smite features and the various smite spells, sadly.
There is no dispute about versatility. Whether you or someone else is throwing the magic stone by hand or using a sling to throw it, the attack uses the caster's spell attack bonus and damage bonus (based on their spellcasting modifier) because it is a ranged spell attack.
For a druid, yep, with the same proviso that you can carry around a warhammer in silence, you cant do that with the cantrip.
But I maintain that primal savagery > shillelagh. :-)