When I read the discussions here, I am impressed that everyone is being civil to everyone else without any moderator interactions. Congrats to all, I really mean that. I want to bring up things I have been thinking about today after going over what I have read since the leaks have been verified that will in my opinion affect me.
I normally have two VTT sessions every two weeks since the pandemic started up and just started a third in my home with family and friends coming here yesterday. First the setups.
A. One session hosted at Roll20 with Discord and resources are from the previous OGL.
B. One using Foundry running on a server I built with a static IP from an Internet provider.
C. One ran in home using DND Beyond with my desktop wirelessly connected to a 50 inch 4k display thru a Microsoft Wireless Display Adapter plugged into an HDMI port on it using Widows 11 Connect to a Wireless monitor option. The content comes from both resources from DND Beyond I have paid for, resources that are from the previous OGL I paid for from another place and my homebrew campaign stuff from dungeons I created over 50 years ago along with some apps and programs on the computer. I did need some updating and add ins to the DND Beyond homebrew magic items so they would go into the character sheets on DYD Beyond so I could use the Campaign and Encounter sections.
Putting aside everything about the 50k and 750k sections of groups and people and if those numbers change and looking ONLY at users who do not sell any content, I have come to the following conclusions that will affect my groups and I on the 13 when the new OGL goes in effect from what I have read.
First -Session A may be the least affected if Roll20 and Discord reach an agreement with Hasbro (WOTC) except I will lose content from many 3 party sources as their material will not be allowed on Roll20 or Discord because the old agreement will be nullified and I would be in violation of rules sure to be coming on Roll20 and Discord on the current OGL as of 13 January if I used materials from some company who did not sign onto the new OGL.
Second - Session B will be dead since there is NO interest from Hasbro (WOTC) in making a deal with Foundry from what I have researched. Money for server, license and static IP down the drain.
Third - Session C is interesting. Since I am wirelessly broadcasting from my computer to a tv across the room for my players and using apps and programs with that screen and my computer for the players I seem to meet the legal definition of a VTT (sounds dumb but we are talking lawyers, the law and money) and I believe I would be in violation of the rules for 13 January even though I paid for my DND Beyond top tier subscription and my source materials. In addition, I may be OK in my home created campaign materials and the materials from DND Beyond I paid for. The ones I obtained from 3 parties that were covered by the old OGL license who did not sign up for the new OGL definitely are not and would be a violation of rules to come I am sure for Hasbro’s (WOTC) VTT when it is finished and I sign up for it. The VTT Hasbro (WOTC) is building is most of the reason for this new OGL agreement from what I can determine.
People should map out in their mind what actions occur the next time they have a gaming session and think in what ways could my group or I be affected. Then remember we are talking lawyers and money so common sense left the building along with Elvis long before. If you do not think it will get that crazy then go read a copy of the OGL that is supposed to go into effect in 4 days.
unless you're charging for your game, you would likely NOT be affected by the OGL changes...I have my own plans when it comes to my Foundry server and would be happy to discuss low/no-cost hosting options with you if you should choose to reach out. WoTC can say whatever they like, but no one can tell you what you can do with property you've purchased and run within your home. :)
I do not charge but I think that does not matter from what I have read. If there is enough money to be made I think they will try and unless you own a ISP once Hasbro slaps a notice to them on trademark violation one might have to go to a café with internet to check one's mail.
The using a VTT is a different thing and the only VTT's Hasbro has reached out to allow are Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds from what I have read.
In the end once Hasbro has either purchased one or the other or built their own it will become a 30 day notice for the rest and then there will be only one.
My biggest concern is language that states WotC can terminate/change/update the OGL 1.1 and only require a 30 day notice, with the addition of gaining inperpetuity the control of any 3rd party material you create they can easily let creators make something only for Hasbro to pull a Vader and say "Pray I don't alter it further". I know as a small DM and DnD player the OGL won't directly impact me but the idea that it could strangle and destroy the community that makes DnD great, the people not WotC, that's when I draw the line.
There is probably a happy middle out there but that won't exist as long as we are viewed as cows to be milked and tossed aside once they get their fill, which lets be honest when have investors ever said that's enough profit let's stop?
For all we know, the leaks could still be wrong. I am concerned deeply be them and with all the new evidence coming in, I think it is all too likely that they are true. However, I'm willing to wait a bit longer to see what will happen.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explainHERE.
There hasn't been a large enough movement or even reason until now. Many pen-and-paper RPGs exist, but this one had the fantasy gaming on lock. However, a ton of the third-party content is much better than the official content, but why would anyone keep creating third-party content when WotC could take it for free and make the creator stop selling it even after claiming 20% upfront off the Kickstarter. You can't sue because of the new not OpenGL.
I own every sourcebook, both physical and digital (dndbeyond) copies, but everyone I know is winding down our games and getting ready to close the door on this IP. I can't support this level of greed and mass grift. My dndbeyond Membership will not renew, and WotC and Hasben can GFSF. #opendnd
Hasbro/Wizards intentions here are unconscionable. They're attempting to destroy the RPG community for their own profit, acting in bad faith wielding text in the original OGL directly contrary to its intent, and lieing to their customers about it.
Two years ago, Wizards knew the previous versions of the OGL were forever (as it was in their FAQ, assuring people who were using it of such). Then they buried the evidence, and apparently started planning to destroy their competition not through superior products and service, but through questionably legal and absolutely immoral legal chicanery.
Its reprehensible, and I'll be asking everyone in my personal reach not to support Wizards or Hasbro financially unless they back off trying to essentially steal the work of third party creators and put hundreds or thousands of people out of work because they aren't competent to actually deal with competition in their market.
To be clear, they aren't competent to compete with people making products available for free.
Whats sad though, is that even if they do backtrack, they can't be trusted at all ever again. They've revealed their intent and desire for the industry - a barren wasteland where only they exist, with a dollar sign at every level of their product. It'll be years repairing their reputation, if it can be salvaged at all.
This is sad. New people at the top who don't understand the hobby or the dynamics of the table top culture. Rather than have a good look at the way things have worked for decades and embrace the fans of their product , they drag out this draconian document with the intent of walling off the very people they rely upon to pay the bills.
Brilliant!
Too bad, I was just a bit curious what this unreal engine based virtual game setting thingie was all about.
If the only reason for it to exist is to hoover cash from my pocket, then that is disappointing at the very least.
I don't have that kind of income any more, and even if I did I don't waste money on digital bling.
"Would"? LOL. Y'all are just in full-on scaremongering mode, and completely divorced from reality
Wizards/Hasbro is not going to piss off CR and drive them back to Pathfinder. You might have decided they're evil, but they're not stupid
If the leaked 1.1 text is real they're both. It begins with a section in which they lie about objective and easily checked fact regarding the OGL 1.0 in order to achieve a business goal - that is to say, it starts by committing fraud intext - and doesn't really improve thereafter.
That's the only thing making me doubt it's veracity - I am honestly surprised at just how cack-handed it is.
That's the most I've seen thus far, so I thank you for that. Realistically, I'll probably be taking a step back from all this until something gives one way or the other; this whole debacle has been distressing, no matter how you look at it.
Take care of yourself first. This is distressing and o need to remain distressed until you are ready to come back and look at it again.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The age of OGL is over. The Time of the ORC has come!
The moment that WotC declares OGL 1.0a "de-authorized", "revoked" or any such nonsense is the moment I release as much content as possible under OGL 1.0a and say, "Sue me WotC". OGL1.0a cannot be revoked. If thousands of us do it, the countersuit will be a class action suit.
At this point it wouldn't matter to me if the DDB VTT is the most amazing vtt in the world, the bad faith actions of WotC mean I will not only never use it, I will likely not renew my mastier tier membership once my current campaign is done.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
This is sad. New people at the top who don't understand the hobby or the dynamics of the table top culture. Rather than have a good look at the way things have worked for decades and embrace the fans of their product , they drag out this draconian document with the intent of walling off the very people they rely upon to pay the bills.
Brilliant!
Too bad, I was just a bit curious what this unreal engine based virtual game setting thingie was all about.
If the only reason for it to exist is to hoover cash from my pocket, then that is disappointing at the very least.
I don't have that kind of income any more, and even if I did I don't waste money on digital bling.
Yea, and man I'm curious too. Using the Unreal Engine is so smart. And what we have seen looks fun, right?
Hasbero and WoTC should trust in their creative strengths. They have, after all, delivered every time.
This is sad. New people at the top who don't understand the hobby or the dynamics of the table top culture. Rather than have a good look at the way things have worked for decades and embrace the fans of their product , they drag out this draconian document with the intent of walling off the very people they rely upon to pay the bills.
Brilliant!
Too bad, I was just a bit curious what this unreal engine based virtual game setting thingie was all about.
If the only reason for it to exist is to hoover cash from my pocket, then that is disappointing at the very least.
I don't have that kind of income any more, and even if I did I don't waste money on digital bling.
Yea, and man I'm curious too. Using the Unreal Engine is so smart. And what we have seen looks fun, right?
Hasbero and WoTC should trust in their creative strengths. They have, after all, delivered every time.
Anyone else find it somewhat hypocritical that Hasbro/WoTC are building their VTT based upon a licensed access to the Unreal Engine....kinda like an Open Game License-thing?
How You Can Use the Licensed Technology Epic grants you a non-exclusive, non-transferable, non-sublicensable license to privately use, reproduce, display, perform, and modify the Licensed Technology in accordance with the terms of this Agreement (the “License”). This means that as long as you are not violating this Agreement or applicable law, you can privately use the Licensed Technology however you want. If you want to share the Licensed Technology or anything you make with it, Sections 3 and 4 below address when and how you can do that.
Yea, and man I'm curious too. Using the Unreal Engine is so smart. And what we have seen looks fun, right?
Hasbero and WoTC should trust in their creative strengths. They have, after all, delivered every time.
You sound like a Hasbro PR spokesperson...
And, no. They haven't. They've had quite a few releases that many agree were not "creatively strong", with increasing number in recent years. MotM was a rehash of content barely a few years old and Spelljammer was threadbare and overpriced. All signs pointing to "what if you paid more for less content?" from what I see.
I was disappointed in Spelljammer, and Monsters of the Multiverse wasn’t that great either. But Shadow of the Dragon Queen was really good.
I’m saying this because I still don’t think D&D sucks. I do reluctantly agree that I’m disappointed in what they’re doing with the OGL though.
To be clear, I love the game D&D. It's the only TTRPG I play, it's a hobby that I gleefully invest my time and energy into. But "D&D, the game" is very different from "D&D, the brand". The creative and business directions that Hasbro/WotC have been moving towards are incredibly anti-consumer and anti-competition (which also means it's anti-capitalist, since a free, competitive market is essensial to a "functioning capitalist society", just FYI), and they are decisions that will only serve to drive people away from the game into other, non-compatible gaming systems. We see it all the time with the video game industry, where entire franchises are turned into game store poison through over-monetisation and content-carving, and thrown aside by the corporation as they move onto the next sacrifice upon the alter of the myth of "perpetual growth".
None of that makes the idea of rolling an ability check, or counterspelling any less fun and exciting, but it is going to affect whether or not a player considers that excitement worth investing in a company that is willing to lie, trick, and strong arm you into paying more for less, especially if there is an alternative that doesn't come with such high levels of amoral avarice.
I mean, technically there are economists who have argued that monopolies are actually fine, but that's another can of worms entirely. I get the feeling that Hasbro / WoTC execs are really zooming in on the undermonetization angle, and from the radio silence on official PR / comms, they're trying to see if they can ride out the wave of frustration into some kind of miserable, teeth-gritted acceptance of the new normal.
As you say, D&D the Game and D&D the Brand are distinct things. The game will outlast the brand, but poisoning the well for the brand is just an incredibly spiteful and short-sighted move.
One D&D to rule them all. One contract to find them. One OGL to bring them all and in the fine print bind them; In the Land of Hasbro where the shareholders lie.
That's the most I've seen thus far, so I thank you for that. Realistically, I'll probably be taking a step back from all this until something gives one way or the other; this whole debacle has been distressing, no matter how you look at it.
Take care of yourself first. This is distressing and o need to remain distressed until you are ready to come back and look at it again.
Thank you kindly. I believe that will be in order.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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When I read the discussions here, I am impressed that everyone is being civil to everyone else without any moderator interactions. Congrats to all, I really mean that. I want to bring up things I have been thinking about today after going over what I have read since the leaks have been verified that will in my opinion affect me.
I normally have two VTT sessions every two weeks since the pandemic started up and just started a third in my home with family and friends coming here yesterday. First the setups.
A. One session hosted at Roll20 with Discord and resources are from the previous OGL.
B. One using Foundry running on a server I built with a static IP from an Internet provider.
C. One ran in home using DND Beyond with my desktop wirelessly connected to a 50 inch 4k display thru a Microsoft Wireless Display Adapter plugged into an HDMI port on it using Widows 11 Connect to a Wireless monitor option. The content comes from both resources from DND Beyond I have paid for, resources that are from the previous OGL I paid for from another place and my homebrew campaign stuff from dungeons I created over 50 years ago along with some apps and programs on the computer. I did need some updating and add ins to the DND Beyond homebrew magic items so they would go into the character sheets on DYD Beyond so I could use the Campaign and Encounter sections.
Putting aside everything about the 50k and 750k sections of groups and people and if those numbers change and looking ONLY at users who do not sell any content, I have come to the following conclusions that will affect my groups and I on the 13 when the new OGL goes in effect from what I have read.
First -Session A may be the least affected if Roll20 and Discord reach an agreement with Hasbro (WOTC) except I will lose content from many 3 party sources as their material will not be allowed on Roll20 or Discord because the old agreement will be nullified and I would be in violation of rules sure to be coming on Roll20 and Discord on the current OGL as of 13 January if I used materials from some company who did not sign onto the new OGL.
Second - Session B will be dead since there is NO interest from Hasbro (WOTC) in making a deal with Foundry from what I have researched. Money for server, license and static IP down the drain.
Third - Session C is interesting. Since I am wirelessly broadcasting from my computer to a tv across the room for my players and using apps and programs with that screen and my computer for the players I seem to meet the legal definition of a VTT (sounds dumb but we are talking lawyers, the law and money) and I believe I would be in violation of the rules for 13 January even though I paid for my DND Beyond top tier subscription and my source materials. In addition, I may be OK in my home created campaign materials and the materials from DND Beyond I paid for. The ones I obtained from 3 parties that were covered by the old OGL license who did not sign up for the new OGL definitely are not and would be a violation of rules to come I am sure for Hasbro’s (WOTC) VTT when it is finished and I sign up for it. The VTT Hasbro (WOTC) is building is most of the reason for this new OGL agreement from what I can determine.
People should map out in their mind what actions occur the next time they have a gaming session and think in what ways could my group or I be affected. Then remember we are talking lawyers and money so common sense left the building along with Elvis long before. If you do not think it will get that crazy then go read a copy of the OGL that is supposed to go into effect in 4 days.
Hope for the best, plan for the worst.
@RedSix -
unless you're charging for your game, you would likely NOT be affected by the OGL changes...I have my own plans when it comes to my Foundry server and would be happy to discuss low/no-cost hosting options with you if you should choose to reach out. WoTC can say whatever they like, but no one can tell you what you can do with property you've purchased and run within your home. :)
Regards
#OpenDND - opendnd.games
I do not charge but I think that does not matter from what I have read. If there is enough money to be made I think they will try and unless you own a ISP once Hasbro slaps a notice to them on trademark violation one might have to go to a café with internet to check one's mail.
The using a VTT is a different thing and the only VTT's Hasbro has reached out to allow are Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds from what I have read.
In the end once Hasbro has either purchased one or the other or built their own it will become a 30 day notice for the rest and then there will be only one.
My biggest concern is language that states WotC can terminate/change/update the OGL 1.1 and only require a 30 day notice, with the addition of gaining inperpetuity the control of any 3rd party material you create they can easily let creators make something only for Hasbro to pull a Vader and say "Pray I don't alter it further". I know as a small DM and DnD player the OGL won't directly impact me but the idea that it could strangle and destroy the community that makes DnD great, the people not WotC, that's when I draw the line.
There is probably a happy middle out there but that won't exist as long as we are viewed as cows to be milked and tossed aside once they get their fill, which lets be honest when have investors ever said that's enough profit let's stop?
For all we know, the leaks could still be wrong. I am concerned deeply be them and with all the new evidence coming in, I think it is all too likely that they are true. However, I'm willing to wait a bit longer to see what will happen.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.There hasn't been a large enough movement or even reason until now. Many pen-and-paper RPGs exist, but this one had the fantasy gaming on lock. However, a ton of the third-party content is much better than the official content, but why would anyone keep creating third-party content when WotC could take it for free and make the creator stop selling it even after claiming 20% upfront off the Kickstarter. You can't sue because of the new not OpenGL.
I own every sourcebook, both physical and digital (dndbeyond) copies, but everyone I know is winding down our games and getting ready to close the door on this IP. I can't support this level of greed and mass grift. My dndbeyond Membership will not renew, and WotC and Hasben can GFSF. #opendnd
Hasbro/Wizards intentions here are unconscionable. They're attempting to destroy the RPG community for their own profit, acting in bad faith wielding text in the original OGL directly contrary to its intent, and lieing to their customers about it.
Two years ago, Wizards knew the previous versions of the OGL were forever (as it was in their FAQ, assuring people who were using it of such). Then they buried the evidence, and apparently started planning to destroy their competition not through superior products and service, but through questionably legal and absolutely immoral legal chicanery.
Its reprehensible, and I'll be asking everyone in my personal reach not to support Wizards or Hasbro financially unless they back off trying to essentially steal the work of third party creators and put hundreds or thousands of people out of work because they aren't competent to actually deal with competition in their market.
To be clear, they aren't competent to compete with people making products available for free.
Whats sad though, is that even if they do backtrack, they can't be trusted at all ever again. They've revealed their intent and desire for the industry - a barren wasteland where only they exist, with a dollar sign at every level of their product. It'll be years repairing their reputation, if it can be salvaged at all.
This is sad. New people at the top who don't understand the hobby or the dynamics of the table top culture. Rather than have a good look at the way things have worked for decades and embrace the fans of their product , they drag out this draconian document with the intent of walling off the very people they rely upon to pay the bills.
Brilliant!
Too bad, I was just a bit curious what this unreal engine based virtual game setting thingie was all about.
If the only reason for it to exist is to hoover cash from my pocket, then that is disappointing at the very least.
I don't have that kind of income any more, and even if I did I don't waste money on digital bling.
If the leaked 1.1 text is real they're both. It begins with a section in which they lie about objective and easily checked fact regarding the OGL 1.0 in order to achieve a business goal - that is to say, it starts by committing fraud in text - and doesn't really improve thereafter.
That's the only thing making me doubt it's veracity - I am honestly surprised at just how cack-handed it is.
Take care of yourself first. This is distressing and o need to remain distressed until you are ready to come back and look at it again.
The age of OGL is over. The Time of the ORC has come!
The moment that WotC declares OGL 1.0a "de-authorized", "revoked" or any such nonsense is the moment I release as much content as possible under OGL 1.0a and say, "Sue me WotC". OGL1.0a cannot be revoked. If thousands of us do it, the countersuit will be a class action suit.
At this point it wouldn't matter to me if the DDB VTT is the most amazing vtt in the world, the bad faith actions of WotC mean I will not only never use it, I will likely not renew my mastier tier membership once my current campaign is done.
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Yea, and man I'm curious too. Using the Unreal Engine is so smart. And what we have seen looks fun, right?
Hasbero and WoTC should trust in their creative strengths. They have, after all, delivered every time.
Anyone else find it somewhat hypocritical that Hasbro/WoTC are building their VTT based upon a licensed access to the Unreal Engine....kinda like an Open Game License-thing?
Taken from the Unreal Engine EULA (https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/eula/unreal)
#OpenDND - opendnd.games
You sound like a Hasbro PR spokesperson...
And, no. They haven't. They've had quite a few releases that many agree were not "creatively strong", with increasing number in recent years. MotM was a rehash of content barely a few years old and Spelljammer was threadbare and overpriced. All signs pointing to "what if you paid more for less content?" from what I see.
I was disappointed in Spelljammer, and Monsters of the Multiverse wasn’t that great either. But Shadow of the Dragon Queen was really good.
I’m saying this because I still don’t think D&D sucks. I do reluctantly agree that I’m disappointed in what they’re doing with the OGL though.
I really like D&D, especially Ravenloft, Exandria and the Upside Down from Stranger Things. My pronouns are she/they (genderfae).
To be clear, I love the game D&D. It's the only TTRPG I play, it's a hobby that I gleefully invest my time and energy into. But "D&D, the game" is very different from "D&D, the brand". The creative and business directions that Hasbro/WotC have been moving towards are incredibly anti-consumer and anti-competition (which also means it's anti-capitalist, since a free, competitive market is essensial to a "functioning capitalist society", just FYI), and they are decisions that will only serve to drive people away from the game into other, non-compatible gaming systems. We see it all the time with the video game industry, where entire franchises are turned into game store poison through over-monetisation and content-carving, and thrown aside by the corporation as they move onto the next sacrifice upon the alter of the myth of "perpetual growth".
None of that makes the idea of rolling an ability check, or counterspelling any less fun and exciting, but it is going to affect whether or not a player considers that excitement worth investing in a company that is willing to lie, trick, and strong arm you into paying more for less, especially if there is an alternative that doesn't come with such high levels of amoral avarice.
I mean, technically there are economists who have argued that monopolies are actually fine, but that's another can of worms entirely. I get the feeling that Hasbro / WoTC execs are really zooming in on the undermonetization angle, and from the radio silence on official PR / comms, they're trying to see if they can ride out the wave of frustration into some kind of miserable, teeth-gritted acceptance of the new normal.
As you say, D&D the Game and D&D the Brand are distinct things. The game will outlast the brand, but poisoning the well for the brand is just an incredibly spiteful and short-sighted move.
>> #OpenDND
Ahh, now I get why they called it One D&D...
One D&D to rule them all. One contract to find them. One OGL to bring them all and in the fine print bind them; In the Land of Hasbro where the shareholders lie.
Thank you kindly. I believe that will be in order.