Yeah, it's rather odd. There are companies like Drivethrurpg who post older essentially copyrighted material for purchase as digital downloads, but doesn't pay the original content creators royalties on those purchases...
Whether it's virtuous or not is irrelevant. It's possible, and the more Hasbro tries to crack down on it? The harder they squeeze? The more people are gonna do it. I don't like pirating PDFs and as a general rule I don't do it, but there's also an argument to be made for archival and preservation efforts that large corporations try to stop because they can't tell the difference between preservation and piracy. Now, before you yell at me - no, individual Trove users are not "preserving" those old adventures save ion the broadest sense. But the Trove website itself is. And clearly they need to, since Hasbro is trying to shut down all third-party/old D&D.
Yeah, it's rather odd. There are companies like Drivethrurpg who post older essentially copyrighted material for purchase as digital downloads, but doesn't pay the original content creators royalties on those purchases...
Don't think that's true. Older D&D stuff is available on both DTRPG and DMsGuild and WotC gets a cut of sales on those products because they are the ones selling them on both platforms.
If there is some other old IP that is being sold without the owner's permission, please provide evidence.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
"Jay Cushing, a dungeon master based in New York who has played D&D for over a decade, believes that D&D’s “community of nerds” will find inventive ways to get past any proposed licensing.
They already have: sites like the now defunct Trove allowed users to download PDFs of old adventures for free, without compensating creators. “We are people who are not always using the correct avenues of content sharing, so nothing is going to stop people from making their own content,” Cushing said."
So, it is wrong for WotC to restrict use of their IP, but virtuous for others to get around copyrights on material WotC have, themselves published, for which they did pay creators?
Let me get this straight; you are talking about one guy who makes a modest amount of cash from being pro DM. He's not selling that material, he's using it to keep that old stuff alive and part of the game and community, which is vast thanks to the OGL. WoTC hasn't printed ANY of that stuff for decades. It's not affecting them at all, except that the people enjoying this WILL buy their core rule books. Thus keeping the game viable, alive, and with a great future.
Going after one guy's gross profits is ok with you?
"Jay Cushing, a dungeon master based in New York who has played D&D for over a decade, believes that D&D’s “community of nerds” will find inventive ways to get past any proposed licensing.
They already have: sites like the now defunct Trove allowed users to download PDFs of old adventures for free, without compensating creators. “We are people who are not always using the correct avenues of content sharing, so nothing is going to stop people from making their own content,” Cushing said."
So, it is wrong for WotC to restrict use of their IP, but virtuous for others to get around copyrights on material WotC have, themselves published, for which they did pay creators?
It's wrong for WotC to go BACK ON THEIR WORD and betray everyone with the OGL that they PROMISED would exist in perpetuity, aka, forever, so that they could make their third party content without fear of losing their shirts over it. This allowed both Wizards and third party content creators to help make D&D flourish, y'know, working together.
Now, Wizards wants to remove that permission and start taking everything for themselves; the people who are getting around this BS (which is wholly illegal by the way, every lawyer I've seen talking about it says they don't think that Wizards would win in court, so they literally don't even have the LEGAL right to do this it's just a scare tactic to force creators to sign on to the new OGL because then they would be legally bound by the new horrible one) are doing the morally and ethically right thing, and if you can't see that then I suggest you go watch Disney's Robin Hood or some other basic children's movies so you can understand that greed is bad. Cuz I dunno how to explain it without being horribly mean and insulting.
It would be nice if the people who claim to be leaving would hurry up and do it, and stop cluttering up the forum with a dozen redundant threads about the same subject
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I would love to buy a New copy of the original AD&D from the Owner of the IP but I can't seem to find a place to do this. I can find dozens of used copies everywhere else, though.
Its kind of hard to pirate something that you can't find anywhere for sale by the IP owner. Does wizards have a pdf repository where I can buy a copy of the 1st edition wilderness survival guide or the ruins of Myth Drannor campaign setting. This is not optimal.
I can't understand why they think the new stuff is the only thing that is of any value to them. The mentality that 'We need more money so lets kill off the old versions of the game to make way for new versions,' is unfathomable to me. When 1e became 2e the game was largely the same. some of the names of the mechanics were changed but Ac's starting at ten (10) and going to minus ten (-10) remained and aside from language changes and dropping a class or two while adding to the warehouse of available classes wasn't a big deal. we who played through this time found that most of the "improvements were either acceptable or we could ignore them as we chose to much like the rules we were already using. there were a lot of house rules then because E. Garry said it was the way to play the game. He wrote it so he should know, right. The company even explained the changes being made because the game was being negatively affected by public outcry over some of the contents of those books.
The bottom line couldn't have been the reason they made changes because from what I could see only DMs were buying the books they released, and those books for the most part were intended for DMs not players. there were few published dungeons at the time and nearly every DM had to make his own world and create dungeons for the players to enjoy. DMind was work. For some of us it was more fun than playing.
Pardon my trip down memory lane. my point is if you can't find what you are looking for because it is out of print, I see little reason not to download it for your personal use. You don't see people going crazy over out of print material being sold on E bay for way more than its worth.
I would love to buy a New copy of the original AD&D from the Owner of the IP but I can't seem to find a place to do this. I can find dozens of used copies everywhere else, though.
Its kind of hard to pirate something that you can't find anywhere for sale by the IP owner. Does wizards have a pdf repository where I can buy a copy of the 1st edition wilderness survival guide or the ruins of Myth Drannor campaign setting. This is not optimal.
I can't understand why they think the new stuff is the only thing that is of any value to them. The mentality that 'We need more money so lets kill off the old versions of the game to make way for new versions,' is unfathomable to me. When 1e became 2e the game was largely the same. some of the names of the mechanics were changed but Ac's starting at ten (10) and going to minus ten (-10) remained and aside from language changes and dropping a class or two while adding to the warehouse of available classes wasn't a big deal. we who played through this time found that most of the "improvements were either acceptable or we could ignore them as we chose to much like the rules we were already using. there were a lot of house rules then because E. Garry said it was the way to play the game. He wrote it so he should know, right. The company even explained the changes being made because the game was being negatively affected by public outcry over some of the contents of those books.
The bottom line couldn't have been the reason they made changes because from what I could see only DMs were buying the books they released, and those books for the most part were intended for DMs not players. there were few published dungeons at the time and nearly every DM had to make his own world and create dungeons for the players to enjoy. DMind was work. For some of us it was more fun than playing.
Pardon my trip down memory lane. my point is if you can't find what you are looking for because it is out of print, I see little reason not to download it for your personal use. You don't see people going crazy over out of print material being sold on E bay for way more than its worth.
If you're still willing to give WotC/Hasbro Money, you can get some of the 1st Edition stuff in Print on Demand Hard Copy at DMsGuild. Here's the Player's Handbook The rest is available as PDF, so no hard copy, but at least it's a legit, licensed source.
Let's all keep in mind that, should WoTC go ahead with this and, thus, the ONLY material we can legally buy will be what they, and they alone, publish, then all we have are the disasters such as Spelljammer. I wouldn't bother to spend a penny on such sub-par garbage.
The bottom line couldn't have been the reason they made changes because...
SNIP!
Just as point of order, imho, the reason WoTC (and very much Hasbero) is doing this is - standard operating procedure (SOP) for any corporation protecting their IP and copyrights. Standard.
And yes, such an over reaching, slash and burn, salt the earth, legal position is standard.
Is this a good idea for them? Almost everyone says no, that they are throwing away not just the good will of their loyal customers, but a decades in the making OGL community that has created mountains of material that suppliment the game and created a vast community that keeps the game relevant. Most importantly, the core rule books will continue to sell because of this OGL community.
I personally think that's a far better business model than just doing what corporations do.
"Jay Cushing, a dungeon master based in New York who has played D&D for over a decade, believes that D&D’s “community of nerds” will find inventive ways to get past any proposed licensing.
They already have: sites like the now defunct Trove allowed users to download PDFs of old adventures for free, without compensating creators. “We are people who are not always using the correct avenues of content sharing, so nothing is going to stop people from making their own content,” Cushing said."
So, it is wrong for WotC to restrict use of their IP, but virtuous for others to get around copyrights on material WotC have, themselves published, for which they did pay creators?
Let me get this straight; you are talking about one guy who makes a modest amount of cash from being pro DM. He's not selling that material, he's using it to keep that old stuff alive and part of the game and community, which is vast thanks to the OGL. WoTC hasn't printed ANY of that stuff for decades. It's not affecting them at all, except that the people enjoying this WILL buy their core rule books. Thus keeping the game viable, alive, and with a great future.
Going after one guy's gross profits is ok with you?
From being a pro DM, and you figure WotC is going to spend the money to hunt all such people down and bring them to trial? They would lose money on each and every court case. There would not be enough money to gain to cover costs.
If you don't want to answer the question, fine. But to answer yours; try making a little comic book of Mickey Mouse ******* Mini Mouse, then publish it. See how fast you end up in court. Mmk?
Are you serious? That completely ignores Paizo, Frog God Games, Kobold Press, etc. O.R.C & Project Black Flag & Open RPG are coming & they will remove this issue entirely & permanently.
We will have plenty of great content to choose from if we leave these people forever.
It would be nice if the people who claim to be leaving would hurry up and do it, and stop cluttering up the forum with a dozen redundant threads about the same subject
Agreed. I had this same discussion in another thread. And I was the "unreasonable" one in the madness.
Hi,
This is now international news.
https://www.theguardian.com/games/2023/jan/12/dungeons-and-dragons-wizards-of-the-coast-ogl
Yeah, it's rather odd. There are companies like Drivethrurpg who post older essentially copyrighted material for purchase as digital downloads, but doesn't pay the original content creators royalties on those purchases...
Whether it's virtuous or not is irrelevant. It's possible, and the more Hasbro tries to crack down on it? The harder they squeeze? The more people are gonna do it. I don't like pirating PDFs and as a general rule I don't do it, but there's also an argument to be made for archival and preservation efforts that large corporations try to stop because they can't tell the difference between preservation and piracy. Now, before you yell at me - no, individual Trove users are not "preserving" those old adventures save ion the broadest sense. But the Trove website itself is. And clearly they need to, since Hasbro is trying to shut down all third-party/old D&D.
Please do not contact or message me.
I couldn't unsub, bc I was waiting for the vtt to sub, but I did put in the ticket to delete my account. I'm leaving literally. Hasbro is the worst.
Don't think that's true. Older D&D stuff is available on both DTRPG and DMsGuild and WotC gets a cut of sales on those products because they are the ones selling them on both platforms.
If there is some other old IP that is being sold without the owner's permission, please provide evidence.
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Let me get this straight; you are talking about one guy who makes a modest amount of cash from being pro DM. He's not selling that material, he's using it to keep that old stuff alive and part of the game and community, which is vast thanks to the OGL. WoTC hasn't printed ANY of that stuff for decades. It's not affecting them at all, except that the people enjoying this WILL buy their core rule books. Thus keeping the game viable, alive, and with a great future.
Going after one guy's gross profits is ok with you?
It's wrong for WotC to go BACK ON THEIR WORD and betray everyone with the OGL that they PROMISED would exist in perpetuity, aka, forever, so that they could make their third party content without fear of losing their shirts over it. This allowed both Wizards and third party content creators to help make D&D flourish, y'know, working together.
Now, Wizards wants to remove that permission and start taking everything for themselves; the people who are getting around this BS (which is wholly illegal by the way, every lawyer I've seen talking about it says they don't think that Wizards would win in court, so they literally don't even have the LEGAL right to do this it's just a scare tactic to force creators to sign on to the new OGL because then they would be legally bound by the new horrible one) are doing the morally and ethically right thing, and if you can't see that then I suggest you go watch Disney's Robin Hood or some other basic children's movies so you can understand that greed is bad. Cuz I dunno how to explain it without being horribly mean and insulting.
It would be nice if the people who claim to be leaving would hurry up and do it, and stop cluttering up the forum with a dozen redundant threads about the same subject
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I would love to buy a New copy of the original AD&D from the Owner of the IP but I can't seem to find a place to do this. I can find dozens of used copies everywhere else, though.
Its kind of hard to pirate something that you can't find anywhere for sale by the IP owner. Does wizards have a pdf repository where I can buy a copy of the 1st edition wilderness survival guide or the ruins of Myth Drannor campaign setting. This is not optimal.
I can't understand why they think the new stuff is the only thing that is of any value to them. The mentality that 'We need more money so lets kill off the old versions of the game to make way for new versions,' is unfathomable to me. When 1e became 2e the game was largely the same. some of the names of the mechanics were changed but Ac's starting at ten (10) and going to minus ten (-10) remained and aside from language changes and dropping a class or two while adding to the warehouse of available classes wasn't a big deal. we who played through this time found that most of the "improvements were either acceptable or we could ignore them as we chose to much like the rules we were already using. there were a lot of house rules then because E. Garry said it was the way to play the game. He wrote it so he should know, right. The company even explained the changes being made because the game was being negatively affected by public outcry over some of the contents of those books.
The bottom line couldn't have been the reason they made changes because from what I could see only DMs were buying the books they released, and those books for the most part were intended for DMs not players. there were few published dungeons at the time and nearly every DM had to make his own world and create dungeons for the players to enjoy. DMind was work. For some of us it was more fun than playing.
Pardon my trip down memory lane. my point is if you can't find what you are looking for because it is out of print, I see little reason not to download it for your personal use. You don't see people going crazy over out of print material being sold on E bay for way more than its worth.
Let's go Paizo & friends new license!
If you're still willing to give WotC/Hasbro Money, you can get some of the 1st Edition stuff in Print on Demand Hard Copy at DMsGuild. Here's the Player's Handbook The rest is available as PDF, so no hard copy, but at least it's a legit, licensed source.
Same!
Let's all keep in mind that, should WoTC go ahead with this and, thus, the ONLY material we can legally buy will be what they, and they alone, publish, then all we have are the disasters such as Spelljammer. I wouldn't bother to spend a penny on such sub-par garbage.
Same.
Just as point of order, imho, the reason WoTC (and very much Hasbero) is doing this is - standard operating procedure (SOP) for any corporation protecting their IP and copyrights. Standard.
And yes, such an over reaching, slash and burn, salt the earth, legal position is standard.
Is this a good idea for them? Almost everyone says no, that they are throwing away not just the good will of their loyal customers, but a decades in the making OGL community that has created mountains of material that suppliment the game and created a vast community that keeps the game relevant. Most importantly, the core rule books will continue to sell because of this OGL community.
I personally think that's a far better business model than just doing what corporations do.
If you don't want to answer the question, fine. But to answer yours; try making a little comic book of Mickey Mouse ******* Mini Mouse, then publish it. See how fast you end up in court. Mmk?
memes? Yea sure pal. Whatevhz
I would if I could just figure out how. I used to be fairly internet savvy, but I must be getting old.... (former BASIC D&D player)
Edit: case in point, I forgot to hit the quote button. Responding to AntonSirius
Are you serious? That completely ignores Paizo, Frog God Games, Kobold Press, etc.
O.R.C & Project Black Flag & Open RPG are coming & they will remove this issue entirely & permanently.
We will have plenty of great content to choose from if we leave these people forever.
Agreed. I had this same discussion in another thread. And I was the "unreasonable" one in the madness.
https://dndbeyond-support.wizards.com/hc/en-us/requests/new?ticket_form_id=6858238817684 will open a ticket to delete your account
Check out my publication on DMs Guild: https://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?author=Tawmis%20Logue
Check out my comedy web series - Neverending Nights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wr4-u9-zw0&list=PLbRG7dzFI-u3EJd0usasgDrrFO3mZ1lOZ
Need a character story/background written up? I do it for free (but also take donations!) - https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?591882-Need-a-character-background-written-up