As the title suggests, I'm wondering if an evil character can worship a good diety.
The context of this is i'm planning to run a dhampir rogue/blood hunter who was raised by a vampiric cult, but was subsequently betrayed by said cult under pretense of a prophecy they had, and as he was left for dead he was discovered by a faithful blood hunter of the order mutant who worships serenrae, and takes him in. From there his story begins as an adventurer, seeking to hunt down the things that go bump in the night and better himself as a slow form of redemption.
He's still going to have those innate bouts of his evil nature, but he's genuinely on the path to redeem himself. Under any normal tables rules, would it be a reasonable worship for him?
In my games, I assume that pretty much everyone views themselves as 'good'. In the most hardcore Lawful Evil overlord will have a self-view of 'I'm a good guy, I'm doing what's best for everyone, but only I have the strength to make the hard choices that are necessary to rule this country.'
Everyone justifies their actions, no one views themselves as evil. Same goes for the gods (although it's important to note that I run a homebrew world with a homebrew pantheon): No god is inherently evil, and even a potential God of Tyranny would firmly believe that tyranny is the best way to rule a country.
That doesn't apply to your table, of course - but that's my reasoning, anyways =)
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
As the title suggests, I'm wondering if an evil character can worship a good diety.
The context of this is i'm planning to run a dhampir rogue/blood hunter who was raised by a vampiric cult, but was subsequently betrayed by said cult under pretense of a prophecy they had, and as he was left for dead he was discovered by a faithful blood hunter of the order mutant who worships serenrae, and takes him in. From there his story begins as an adventurer, seeking to hunt down the things that go bump in the night and better himself as a slow form of redemption.
He's still going to have those innate bouts of his evil nature, but he's genuinely on the path to redeem himself. Under any normal tables rules, would it be a reasonable worship for him?
Sure.
In terms of alignment he could possibly be evil and slowly migrate to good, but in reality he would just a good but [to varying degrees] flawed person.
The scenario that doesn't really work is an unrepentant evil person worshipping a good god. Eventually, it would change them and align them with the object of their worship - in this case, good. Your scenario is perfectly fine.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Considering history is absolutely rife with evil people who follow religions whose holy texts preach tolerance and acceptance, it should not be too hard to see how an evil character might worship someone good. You just need to take a part of that good God’s belief and twist it into zealotry.
Earlier editions of the game directly addressed cross-alignment worship. For example, evil worshipers of Bahamut, whose methods of proselytism crossed the line into evil territory. Or good worshipers if Vecna, who used the god of secrets to help keep their activities against evil empires hidden.
Addressing the issue of how one might gain power from a good god while being evil, there’s a number of ways to justify that.
The easiest way is that another god is giving them power—the character might worship X, but they are doing things Y approved of so Y fills in the gap. Think The Last Battle, where Asian says any who do evil in his name are actually worshipping Narnia’s equivalent of the devil, even if they do not realise it. This has a tendency to take away some player agency as you are decreeing which god they are actually serving.
The next method is what is known in theology as Justification. Justification is the concept in religion of what one must do to obtain salvation. Generally speaking, there are two broad categories of Justification - Justification by faith alone and Justification by works. Works require affirmative action - if you want to be saved, you need to do good works, not merely be faithful. Faith alone postures that belief alone, combined with undertaking the sacraments of the religion, are what confer salvation, independent of the actual things you do.
This could translate well into D&D. D&D worlds often have hard coded restrictions on how Gods can interact with the mortal planes. Justification by faith alone could be a feature of those restrictions - want power from the god? Simply follow the strict letter of their sacraments and legitimately believe you are serving them and they are forced (perhaps against their will) to confer upon you power. This could also lead to some interesting dynamics where churches try to preach a Justification by works doctrine, but have to contend with the fact the god seems to support people regardless of their works.
The third option is to take the god out of the picture and have the character derive their power through as a manifestation of their own belief. I believe this is how it works on Eberron (at least in earlier editions) - a god is not really conferring divine power upon divine characters, the character’s belief is strong enough that it manifests in the real world. This can work particularly well in a world with very, very limited divine intervention or one where the gods might not actually exist.
These are all worldbuilding solutions and thus any would have to be implemented by your DM - talk with your DM and see if you can work with them to figure out something that would fit with their world.
A case study of this exact thing features heavily in a WotC featured D&D game series would be the character arc of Omin Dran of the Acquisitions Inc. stage game. Omin is inarguably a rather evil person who worships and gains powers from a good goddess.
Talk to your DM. I absolutely agree with everyone here on how it can work and probably should be able to work. I would personally allow it, no problem. But it’s really going to be up to your DM and how things work in their world.
Your character can worship any deity they want regardless of their alignment and the deity's alignment. Used to be that there were rules regarding which deity a cleric or paladin could follow based on alignment, but those are long gone and even if they weren't they're irrelevant for characters who aren't clerics or paladins.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
As people have said, there’s no restriction on your character saying the prayers, observing the practices, etc. In terms of actually being a cleric or paladin, there’s no RAW restriction, but there’s still the loosely codified oaths of the paladins and the general unspoken expectation that a deity or force won’t grant power to someone who wholly opposes the ideals that entity promotes/represents. Honestly, I’m not a fan of “clap your hands if you believe” clerics and paladins in D&D, since there’s already three agnostic full casting classes and it has some additional worldbuilding issues for a D&D setting when you start thinking about the implications.
Ultimately, this isn’t really a rules question, it’s just something to discuss with your DM.
As the title suggests, I'm wondering if an evil character can worship a good diety.
An evil character, in any edition, can worship whoever they please. The question is how that religion responds to them. It's generally unreasonable to expect granted divine powers if you don't obey the precepts of the deity, and presumably the precepts of a good deity involve good behavior, because if they didn't the deity would likely be neutral or evil.
Considering your character isn't even a cleric, I really don't see how it could be problematic. I've played a human rogue in a LARPG who worships three goddesses, two of which oppose each other. It's a homebrew setting loosely based on the Forgotten Realms. The first goddess is basically Lolth, the second is a female version of Oghma, and the third is a female amalgam of Tyr, Torm, and Lathander. This version of Lolth is commonly known under a different name and isn't only worshipped by drows. This is because she's part of the same pantheon as all other deities. The same deity may be called a different name in other languages. For example, Lolth is what she's called by drows.
In this homebrew setting, people can worship whoever they like. It mostly only affects role play. Only the priest class (cleric equivalent) actually has mechanical rules. Priests may worship and serve only one deity, and they must follow their deity's laws if they want to keep their divine powers. My character isn't a priest, so he's free to do as he pleases. He's an anti-hero who is curious and avid of knowledge. He practices medicine and can concoct potions and poisons. He sides with the good guys, ready to help the innocent and do what's right. However, he shows no mercy for his enemies and is quite vengeful. He even enjoys torturing evildoers. His alignment is neutral.
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Age: 33 | Sex: Male | Languages: French and English | Roles: DM and Player
The Revenge Arc: Loss of family/life and you exact revenge on those who hurt you.
The Redemption Arc: You overcome your past, turning away from evil and resist the temptation thereof.
The Survival Arc: You are tested by slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, and learn about yourself in doing so.
If films are character studies, then this is why so many of them meet these criteria.
If TV shows are story studies, then this is why different characters will seemingly have at least one of the characters going through at least one of these.
I would say this isn't only reasonable, I would say it is a kick ass basis for a lot of fun.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
You're kind of inspiring me to write a story about an elf who is too zealous in their belief of Corellon. They view ugliness as the unholiest of sins, and want to purge the world of anything that isn't beautiful
Yes, since some gods take worshippers of any alignment. Here is an example where worshippers can be of any alignment and clerics have to be neutral...which may include NE? That interpretation of neutral makes sense because otherwise clerics could not be HIS alignment (NG).
"Fharlanghn, Dweller on the Far Horizon, is the deity of roads, travel, and distance. His symbol often appears on the doors of inns. Adventurers, merchants, and other itinerants are his primary worshippers, and any alignment may worship this neutral goodlesser god, although neutrals are preferred. Clerics must be neutrally aligned; there are no weapon or experience adjustments. They gain an acute sense of direction, and access to the footsore spell, which doubles the apparent length of any journey."
As the title suggests, I'm wondering if an evil character can worship a good diety.
The context of this is i'm planning to run a dhampir rogue/blood hunter who was raised by a vampiric cult, but was subsequently betrayed by said cult under pretense of a prophecy they had, and as he was left for dead he was discovered by a faithful blood hunter of the order mutant who worships serenrae, and takes him in. From there his story begins as an adventurer, seeking to hunt down the things that go bump in the night and better himself as a slow form of redemption.
He's still going to have those innate bouts of his evil nature, but he's genuinely on the path to redeem himself. Under any normal tables rules, would it be a reasonable worship for him?
In my games, I assume that pretty much everyone views themselves as 'good'. In the most hardcore Lawful Evil overlord will have a self-view of 'I'm a good guy, I'm doing what's best for everyone, but only I have the strength to make the hard choices that are necessary to rule this country.'
Everyone justifies their actions, no one views themselves as evil. Same goes for the gods (although it's important to note that I run a homebrew world with a homebrew pantheon): No god is inherently evil, and even a potential God of Tyranny would firmly believe that tyranny is the best way to rule a country.
That doesn't apply to your table, of course - but that's my reasoning, anyways =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Sure.
In terms of alignment he could possibly be evil and slowly migrate to good, but in reality he would just a good but [to varying degrees] flawed person.
The scenario that doesn't really work is an unrepentant evil person worshipping a good god. Eventually, it would change them and align them with the object of their worship - in this case, good. Your scenario is perfectly fine.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
of course you can. However the deity will probably not give you and benefits
Considering history is absolutely rife with evil people who follow religions whose holy texts preach tolerance and acceptance, it should not be too hard to see how an evil character might worship someone good. You just need to take a part of that good God’s belief and twist it into zealotry.
Earlier editions of the game directly addressed cross-alignment worship. For example, evil worshipers of Bahamut, whose methods of proselytism crossed the line into evil territory. Or good worshipers if Vecna, who used the god of secrets to help keep their activities against evil empires hidden.
Addressing the issue of how one might gain power from a good god while being evil, there’s a number of ways to justify that.
The easiest way is that another god is giving them power—the character might worship X, but they are doing things Y approved of so Y fills in the gap. Think The Last Battle, where Asian says any who do evil in his name are actually worshipping Narnia’s equivalent of the devil, even if they do not realise it. This has a tendency to take away some player agency as you are decreeing which god they are actually serving.
The next method is what is known in theology as Justification. Justification is the concept in religion of what one must do to obtain salvation. Generally speaking, there are two broad categories of Justification - Justification by faith alone and Justification by works. Works require affirmative action - if you want to be saved, you need to do good works, not merely be faithful. Faith alone postures that belief alone, combined with undertaking the sacraments of the religion, are what confer salvation, independent of the actual things you do.
This could translate well into D&D. D&D worlds often have hard coded restrictions on how Gods can interact with the mortal planes. Justification by faith alone could be a feature of those restrictions - want power from the god? Simply follow the strict letter of their sacraments and legitimately believe you are serving them and they are forced (perhaps against their will) to confer upon you power. This could also lead to some interesting dynamics where churches try to preach a Justification by works doctrine, but have to contend with the fact the god seems to support people regardless of their works.
The third option is to take the god out of the picture and have the character derive their power through as a manifestation of their own belief. I believe this is how it works on Eberron (at least in earlier editions) - a god is not really conferring divine power upon divine characters, the character’s belief is strong enough that it manifests in the real world. This can work particularly well in a world with very, very limited divine intervention or one where the gods might not actually exist.
These are all worldbuilding solutions and thus any would have to be implemented by your DM - talk with your DM and see if you can work with them to figure out something that would fit with their world.
A case study of this exact thing features heavily in a WotC featured D&D game series would be the character arc of Omin Dran of the Acquisitions Inc. stage game. Omin is inarguably a rather evil person who worships and gains powers from a good goddess.
You sure can alignment isn't as restrictive as it used to be in the early days. It's more liberal than ever!
Talk to your DM.
I absolutely agree with everyone here on how it can work and probably should be able to work. I would personally allow it, no problem.
But it’s really going to be up to your DM and how things work in their world.
Your character can worship any deity they want regardless of their alignment and the deity's alignment. Used to be that there were rules regarding which deity a cleric or paladin could follow based on alignment, but those are long gone and even if they weren't they're irrelevant for characters who aren't clerics or paladins.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
As people have said, there’s no restriction on your character saying the prayers, observing the practices, etc. In terms of actually being a cleric or paladin, there’s no RAW restriction, but there’s still the loosely codified oaths of the paladins and the general unspoken expectation that a deity or force won’t grant power to someone who wholly opposes the ideals that entity promotes/represents. Honestly, I’m not a fan of “clap your hands if you believe” clerics and paladins in D&D, since there’s already three agnostic full casting classes and it has some additional worldbuilding issues for a D&D setting when you start thinking about the implications.
Ultimately, this isn’t really a rules question, it’s just something to discuss with your DM.
An evil character, in any edition, can worship whoever they please. The question is how that religion responds to them. It's generally unreasonable to expect granted divine powers if you don't obey the precepts of the deity, and presumably the precepts of a good deity involve good behavior, because if they didn't the deity would likely be neutral or evil.
All you have to do is look back through human history to see ample examples of bad people that worshipped "good" deities.
Considering your character isn't even a cleric, I really don't see how it could be problematic. I've played a human rogue in a LARPG who worships three goddesses, two of which oppose each other. It's a homebrew setting loosely based on the Forgotten Realms. The first goddess is basically Lolth, the second is a female version of Oghma, and the third is a female amalgam of Tyr, Torm, and Lathander. This version of Lolth is commonly known under a different name and isn't only worshipped by drows. This is because she's part of the same pantheon as all other deities. The same deity may be called a different name in other languages. For example, Lolth is what she's called by drows.
In this homebrew setting, people can worship whoever they like. It mostly only affects role play. Only the priest class (cleric equivalent) actually has mechanical rules. Priests may worship and serve only one deity, and they must follow their deity's laws if they want to keep their divine powers. My character isn't a priest, so he's free to do as he pleases. He's an anti-hero who is curious and avid of knowledge. He practices medicine and can concoct potions and poisons. He sides with the good guys, ready to help the innocent and do what's right. However, he shows no mercy for his enemies and is quite vengeful. He even enjoys torturing evildoers. His alignment is neutral.
Age: 33 | Sex: Male | Languages: French and English | Roles: DM and Player
Yes.
Its called character growth after all.
Ultimately it depends where you want to go with this and whether your DM will let you do this without interference.
Some say there are 3 Great Character Arcs:
The Revenge Arc: Loss of family/life and you exact revenge on those who hurt you.
The Redemption Arc: You overcome your past, turning away from evil and resist the temptation thereof.
The Survival Arc: You are tested by slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, and learn about yourself in doing so.
If films are character studies, then this is why so many of them meet these criteria.
If TV shows are story studies, then this is why different characters will seemingly have at least one of the characters going through at least one of these.
I would say this isn't only reasonable, I would say it is a kick ass basis for a lot of fun.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
You're kind of inspiring me to write a story about an elf who is too zealous in their belief of Corellon. They view ugliness as the unholiest of sins, and want to purge the world of anything that isn't beautiful
Yes, since some gods take worshippers of any alignment. Here is an example where worshippers can be of any alignment and clerics have to be neutral...which may include NE? That interpretation of neutral makes sense because otherwise clerics could not be HIS alignment (NG).
"Fharlanghn, Dweller on the Far Horizon, is the deity of roads, travel, and distance. His symbol often appears on the doors of inns. Adventurers, merchants, and other itinerants are his primary worshippers, and any alignment may worship this neutral good lesser god, although neutrals are preferred. Clerics must be neutrally aligned; there are no weapon or experience adjustments. They gain an acute sense of direction, and access to the footsore spell, which doubles the apparent length of any journey."
Food, Scifi/fantasy, anime, DND 5E and OSR geek.
Can an evil character worship a good deity? My short answer, yes.
Or for a different approach:
Those are just some ideas. I can get more if you want them.
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