Hey, this just occurred to me - but I find it funny, and interesting:
I think everyone agrees that an evil character can worship a good deity. But what about the reverse? Could a good character worship an evil deity?
Personally, I'd have much harder a time accepting that.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Hey, this just occurred to me - but I find it funny, and interesting:
I think everyone agrees that an evil character can worship a good deity. But what about the reverse? Could a good character worship an evil deity?
Personally, I'd have much harder a time accepting that.
Yes - and as I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread, this has actually existed in the game.
Vecna is the evil god of secrets, known for his relentless pursuit of knowledge and the cults which dedicate themselves to him, hoping to claim some of that secret knowledge for himself.
His secrecy domain also makes him useful to Good characters. A rag tag group of rebels who want to overthrow a tyrant? Vecna might help keep your conspiracy a secret. A group dedicated to ridding the world of evil magic? Vecna is the strongest vault you can find—he already has enough evil magic to wreck havoc, so giving him more won’t hurt any, but it might keep the information secure from others who might use it due to his secrecy domain. Both of those are examples published by Wizards.
You could go on. Often this will come down to Good characters who see pacts with evil gods as a necessary source of power to do some good or an “enemy of my enemy is my friend” kind of deal.
I mean... *Gestures vaguely at the holy crusades of Jerusalem, the knights templar, and more recently, the pilgrim fathers who killed all the native americans for their land*
Yes you can 100% have bad people who worship, and think that they are doing the work of, a good god.
Hey, this just occurred to me - but I find it funny, and interesting:
I think everyone agrees that an evil character can worship a good deity. But what about the reverse? Could a good character worship an evil deity?
Personally, I'd have much harder a time accepting that.
Incursion is a D&D based roguelike that had the god Erich in its pantheon. Erich is an evil deity that maintains the reputation of a just and righteous figure, and most mortals believe it. It’s perfectly possible for a paladin to worship him, at least until they get in deep enough to start seeing his nastier side.
A Lawful Evil god of vengeance and retribution is a likely candidate for a vengeance paladin, regardless of the paladin's alignment.
A Chaotic Evil god of trickery might be suitable for a chaotic good trickery cleric
I feel like you need to match one of their alignments, not necessarily both - EG, a Lawful Good character can worship a Lawful Evil god, because they believe in the lawful side of things. Also worth noting that not everyone will have utter unshakeable belief in their god or goddess - much like some people consider themselves part of a religeon without following every single line of their religeous text in the real world. Those who follow everything are fanatics, and yes, a fanatic of a lawful evil god must be evil, because they are shaping themselves exclusively on the god, rather than being influenced by them but still being their own person.
You can worship any deity you choose. It only really matters if you get your spells from your diety - a la Cleric. A good-aligned deity isn't going to give an evil-aligned person spells, even if they are a worshiper. Beyond that though, and beyond what happens to you after death (a good-aligned deity might not want the soul of an evil person), it doesn't matter who you worship.
Still, I have to say I feel it's trickier for good to worship evil than the other way around. Like, no nice, good, upstanding citizen would worship Bloodgore, the God of Unjustified Murders. But sure, that same nice, good and upstanding citizen living in an orderly, disciplined society might worship Squarepants, the lawful evil God of Law and Regulation (in this case meaning Tyranny, but with better marketing).
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
But anyways (new thought) no one would actually know the alignment of any deity, right? In the end, I guess it really is all about marketing: An intelligent deity like Squarepants above would realise that Tyranny doesn't have a lot of traction with the general public - but law and order are much easier products to move.
But then you get the hen/egg thing: Does the god shape the follower, or does the follower shape the god?
Not sure we're precisely on topic, here. Hm =)
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
There's "worship", and there's "work for". Some (not all) deities will accept assistance from people who do not normally follow those deities' tenets.
Do we mean the person actively believes in the deity's teachings while being morally misaligned, or do we mean the person is just doing work for the deity as a duty, compulsion, or penance while not aligned with the deity's doctrines?
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Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Maybe this has been said but is it an absolute to declare an evil alignment? I know a lot of DMs play pretty fast and loose with alignments but to me, they are a general declaration of intent of how the player intends to interact with the storyline. Whether the deity decides to feed cleric spells may depend on your character's day-to-day actions. But you are not playing a cleric/druid, so from a game mechanic the DM doesn't have the "oops your spells don't work" or everything you do as a cleric/druid is at a disadvantage card to play. In your journey of redemption maybe a neutral alignment might be more playable.
There's a 3.5e skit where someone made a pantheist cleric, thinking the cleric would get all the benefits. The DM allowed it, and the cleric was pretty much punished for everything he did from all the actively opposing deities.
Didn't do a necessary ritual out of a few dozens required by various deities? Punished by a vengeful deity. Did a deity's ritual? The required sacrifice upset a different vengeful deity. Punished. Cast a holy spell that healed mortal damage? It upset a different vengeful deity. Punished. Resurrected by deity after being killed by another deity wrath? It upset yet another vengeful deity who saw it as necromancy. Killed again. Resurrected by a player just to see what would happen? Quit.
Maybe, it's just simpler to either leave moral compasses out of it and to go with what works and, when roleplaying, what makes some kind of sense.
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Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Hey, this just occurred to me - but I find it funny, and interesting:
I think everyone agrees that an evil character can worship a good deity. But what about the reverse? Could a good character worship an evil deity?
Personally, I'd have much harder a time accepting that.
Fall from grace is another time tested, tried and true storyline.
Yes. It would suck, though, in a lot of ways, since the evil god is going to do everything it can to corrupt the PC, and a lot of evil god's won't do things like grant healing spells.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
The requirement for being a devout follower of a god isn't being the same alignment as the god. It's obeying the standards of behavior the god defines as proper. It's perfectly possible for a god to require behavior from its followers that the god itself does not obey, or for the required behavior not really correspond to any standards of good or evil.
For example, a god/goddess of agriculture is probably going to be considered good (e.g. Chauntea), but a LE grain merchant who hoards grain and sells it at usurious prices during a famine might well be a devoted follower, and depending on how the precepts of the faith were set up, might not even be doing anything wrong.
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A GOD calls whomever that Deity wills based on your true soul.😎
Sorry, I meant diety.
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Sorry, I meant diety. Which can have traits that vary away from a god
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"Be the change you wish to see in the world." - Mahatma Gandhi
Hey, this just occurred to me - but I find it funny, and interesting:
I think everyone agrees that an evil character can worship a good deity. But what about the reverse? Could a good character worship an evil deity?
Personally, I'd have much harder a time accepting that.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Same issue as an evil character worshiping a good deity: it will be hard to follow the precepts of the faith while retaining your existing alignment.
Yes - and as I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread, this has actually existed in the game.
Vecna is the evil god of secrets, known for his relentless pursuit of knowledge and the cults which dedicate themselves to him, hoping to claim some of that secret knowledge for himself.
His secrecy domain also makes him useful to Good characters. A rag tag group of rebels who want to overthrow a tyrant? Vecna might help keep your conspiracy a secret. A group dedicated to ridding the world of evil magic? Vecna is the strongest vault you can find—he already has enough evil magic to wreck havoc, so giving him more won’t hurt any, but it might keep the information secure from others who might use it due to his secrecy domain. Both of those are examples published by Wizards.
You could go on. Often this will come down to Good characters who see pacts with evil gods as a necessary source of power to do some good or an “enemy of my enemy is my friend” kind of deal.
I mean... *Gestures vaguely at the holy crusades of Jerusalem, the knights templar, and more recently, the pilgrim fathers who killed all the native americans for their land*
Yes you can 100% have bad people who worship, and think that they are doing the work of, a good god.
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
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Incursion is a D&D based roguelike that had the god Erich in its pantheon. Erich is an evil deity that maintains the reputation of a just and righteous figure, and most mortals believe it. It’s perfectly possible for a paladin to worship him, at least until they get in deep enough to start seeing his nastier side.
It depends on why they are evil.
A Lawful Evil god of vengeance and retribution is a likely candidate for a vengeance paladin, regardless of the paladin's alignment.
A Chaotic Evil god of trickery might be suitable for a chaotic good trickery cleric
I feel like you need to match one of their alignments, not necessarily both - EG, a Lawful Good character can worship a Lawful Evil god, because they believe in the lawful side of things. Also worth noting that not everyone will have utter unshakeable belief in their god or goddess - much like some people consider themselves part of a religeon without following every single line of their religeous text in the real world. Those who follow everything are fanatics, and yes, a fanatic of a lawful evil god must be evil, because they are shaping themselves exclusively on the god, rather than being influenced by them but still being their own person.
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
You can worship any deity you choose. It only really matters if you get your spells from your diety - a la Cleric. A good-aligned deity isn't going to give an evil-aligned person spells, even if they are a worshiper. Beyond that though, and beyond what happens to you after death (a good-aligned deity might not want the soul of an evil person), it doesn't matter who you worship.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
Yea - grey zones. I get that, and agree. Sure.
Still, I have to say I feel it's trickier for good to worship evil than the other way around. Like, no nice, good, upstanding citizen would worship Bloodgore, the God of Unjustified Murders. But sure, that same nice, good and upstanding citizen living in an orderly, disciplined society might worship Squarepants, the lawful evil God of Law and Regulation (in this case meaning Tyranny, but with better marketing).
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
But anyways (new thought) no one would actually know the alignment of any deity, right? In the end, I guess it really is all about marketing: An intelligent deity like Squarepants above would realise that Tyranny doesn't have a lot of traction with the general public - but law and order are much easier products to move.
But then you get the hen/egg thing: Does the god shape the follower, or does the follower shape the god?
Not sure we're precisely on topic, here. Hm =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
There's "worship", and there's "work for". Some (not all) deities will accept assistance from people who do not normally follow those deities' tenets.
Do we mean the person actively believes in the deity's teachings while being morally misaligned, or do we mean the person is just doing work for the deity as a duty, compulsion, or penance while not aligned with the deity's doctrines?
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Maybe this has been said but is it an absolute to declare an evil alignment? I know a lot of DMs play pretty fast and loose with alignments but to me, they are a general declaration of intent of how the player intends to interact with the storyline. Whether the deity decides to feed cleric spells may depend on your character's day-to-day actions. But you are not playing a cleric/druid, so from a game mechanic the DM doesn't have the "oops your spells don't work" or everything you do as a cleric/druid is at a disadvantage card to play. In your journey of redemption maybe a neutral alignment might be more playable.
There's a 3.5e skit where someone made a pantheist cleric, thinking the cleric would get all the benefits. The DM allowed it, and the cleric was pretty much punished for everything he did from all the actively opposing deities.
Didn't do a necessary ritual out of a few dozens required by various deities? Punished by a vengeful deity.
Did a deity's ritual? The required sacrifice upset a different vengeful deity. Punished.
Cast a holy spell that healed mortal damage? It upset a different vengeful deity. Punished.
Resurrected by deity after being killed by another deity wrath? It upset yet another vengeful deity who saw it as necromancy. Killed again.
Resurrected by a player just to see what would happen? Quit.
Maybe, it's just simpler to either leave moral compasses out of it and to go with what works and, when roleplaying, what makes some kind of sense.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Fall from grace is another time tested, tried and true storyline.
Yes. It would suck, though, in a lot of ways, since the evil god is going to do everything it can to corrupt the PC, and a lot of evil god's won't do things like grant healing spells.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
The requirement for being a devout follower of a god isn't being the same alignment as the god. It's obeying the standards of behavior the god defines as proper. It's perfectly possible for a god to require behavior from its followers that the god itself does not obey, or for the required behavior not really correspond to any standards of good or evil.
For example, a god/goddess of agriculture is probably going to be considered good (e.g. Chauntea), but a LE grain merchant who hoards grain and sells it at usurious prices during a famine might well be a devoted follower, and depending on how the precepts of the faith were set up, might not even be doing anything wrong.