Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

Quote from 6thLyranGuard >>

The biggest thing that could be done to bridge the martial/caster divide is to simply give the martial classes more out-of-combat utility.

 

Which is the Expert's bag. Honestly I'd say go the other way and double up on their in-combat utility more, which is happening with weapon masteries. By definition, Warriors/Martials are specialized in combat. If you personally don't want to play a Martial because you want more out-of-combat utility, that's a reasonable take, but saying they need to be more like casters or experts isn't improving martials, it's making them something else. Honestly, I think Weapon Masteries already help, especially for Fighters. Does at lot to improve and diversify their effect on the battlefield, especially after level 7.

 The problem is that martial classes tend to be stuck without any significant out-of-combat utility at all.  Experts get a lot of utility class abilities while most spellcasters have a stupidly large amount of spells that can do the things experts do only better.  Martials being stuck without much beyond perception and athletics checks is pretty boring.  They don't need to be able to do all the things that experts do, but it would be nice if they could do something.

Quote from 6thLyranGuard >>

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

Quote from 6thLyranGuard >>

The biggest thing that could be done to bridge the martial/caster divide is to simply give the martial classes more out-of-combat utility.

 

Which is the Expert's bag. Honestly I'd say go the other way and double up on their in-combat utility more, which is happening with weapon masteries. By definition, Warriors/Martials are specialized in combat. If you personally don't want to play a Martial because you want more out-of-combat utility, that's a reasonable take, but saying they need to be more like casters or experts isn't improving martials, it's making them something else. Honestly, I think Weapon Masteries already help, especially for Fighters. Does at lot to improve and diversify their effect on the battlefield, especially after level 7.

 The problem is that martial classes tend to be stuck without any significant out-of-combat utility at all.  Experts get a lot of utility class abilities while most spellcasters have a stupidly large amount of spells that can do the things experts do only better.  Martials being stuck without much beyond perception and athletics checks is pretty boring.  They don't need to be able to do all the things that experts do, but it would be nice if they could do something.

 Within the current space of 5E, what would that "something" be?  They can't have expertise, and can't be full casters, so what is left?  Maybe more utility spell options / skill picks, and out of combat, they aren't the guy but they are okay at things & get it done at a "any landing you can walk away from..." level?  

That or maybe things like the ability to buff someone else's ability check or let that character reroll a failed check before it takes effect.  After all, martial characters are usually depicted as being the leader in fiction but the game never really gives them any actual abilities centered around being a leader.

Again, by definition this is the section that is supposed to be most focused on combat. It's right there in the group name "Warriors". Being upset that a warrior isn't notably good at out of combat stuff is like being upset that you didn't get a hamburger patty with your chicken sandwich. And it's not like they don't get some out of combat stuff; Barbarians get an extra skill a few levels in and rage to boost their STR rolls, plus stuff like Danger Sense/Feral Instinct to help cope with traps, Monks can literally Dash 90 ft up a vertical wall or across a river at level 9 without expending any resources, Fighters get two extra feats, one at level 6, so it's easier to take an oddball/utility feat without having stats suffer. They are not that desperately deprived of their own tools, even if it's not the specialized kit of an Expert.

Quote from 6thLyranGuard >>

That or maybe things like the ability to buff someone else's ability check or let that character reroll a failed check before it takes effect.  After all, martial characters are usually depicted as being the leader in fiction but the game never really gives them any actual abilities centered around being a leader.

I mean, out of combat there's the Help action that covers simple support. Anything more is stepping on the Bard's toes if you go wide and general with it. And there have been at least a few Fighter subclasses that can buff social stuff; there's a few Maneuvers to add the die to a social roll, and Samurai subclass gives you an addition prof in History, Insight, Performance or Persuasion and lets you add WIS for Persuasion, so depending how you split your stats you can easily hit mid-range mods for it. Obviously you're still potentially looking at some Session Zero negotiations over who gets to be the face, but that's just how it goes whenever two people are looking at taking a major social role.

"Leader" is not always a synonym for "face."  I'm talking more about abilities that augment allies.

Quote from 6thLyranGuard >>

"Leader" is not always a synonym for "face."  I'm talking more about abilities that augment allies.

Which, again, is the Bard's signature thing. Also, there can be a lot of overlap, particularly in a game that doesn't really lend itself to the more cerebral aspect of leadership, at least not in a mechanical sense. Battlemaster already covers a fair bit of that ground as well; there's maneuvers for moving allies to favorable positions or giving them advantage, and there's fighting styles for blocking damage/attacks. With respect, I understand where you're coming from, but these are things that substantially already exist, either for martials or for a different class.

I know that some of these abilities already exist.  I just think that some of them should be things inherent to the base class instead of being restricted to a few subclasses.

This where a close look at things can help - one of the strengths of casters is actually a very powerful cantrip - Mending. Before it my fighters would regularly take smithing skills so they could mend/fix/maintain their armor - especially at lower levels. Now with mending they have no need and just get the casters to cast a couple of mending cantrips. Rogues, Bards and Rangers are all unlikely to take the smithing skill(s) and even less likely to use an expertise on them so they become the province of the warrior - except that pesky mending spell eliminates their one area of skilled work typically. Maybe the mending spell should disappear so those with creative skills actually have something to do - maintaining (and creating) stuff.

The smith can create stuff and fix stuff when parts are missing. Mending does not sharpen blades or new ship fittings.

The Mending spell can only put back together things that have come apart. You need all the parts to use mending.

The spell not only steps on the toes of smiths but on all other crafts as well. Its not that bad that a smith is never needed.

But a campaign that uses all those other skills is what is needed. I love crafting things in the game, Especially magic things.

Mending is a good spell, but it can't fix everything.  If, for example, a rust monster decides that your shiny new suit of chainmail looks delicious and hits it a couple of times, thus reducing it to a chainmail negligee, a mending spell isn't going to cut it.  You'll need to fix it with smith's tools.  Which is about the only in-game time that you actually have an actual rules-based reason for repairing armor.

Yeah, Mending is only good for a very narrow range of possible problems with a material, and it's honestly not worth a cantrip slot until you're up to 5 or more imo, if ever.

Counterproposal: Barbarian can burn one Rage usage to break spells like Sleep, Charm, Hold Person and so on.

That's all =)

I never noticed the problem.

But unless you cripple casters you will never in anyway make things equal through all the levels.

Unless you start giving martials some new area off effect spell like feature. And then it will not be the same unless they can use it even more than spell singers can cast spells.
Martials will never have the same utility as casters. Sorry but it will never happen unless you get rid of casters. And I see a few around here who would be happy to that.

Then again traditionally casters normally became loners and recluses in their later life and martials became kings.

This is one of the reasons I do not play characters after level 15 anymore. I used to run them as high as possible in past editions but the new level cap forces everything possible into a smaller level zone. Its just no use playing further.

As I see it you cannot please everyone, this martial/caster divide isn't a new thing and I think every version of D&D has had that argument at some stage (and usually towards the end of the editions run).

The problem with any "solution" to that divde would be multiclassing and how you classify a martial class, if you buff fighters etc and a wzard multiclasses into it are they now benefiting from you martial buffs etc. If they are then you haven;t resolved the divide.

For my part I think the easiest thing to do, although it will step on some toes and players may scream you are stifling their choices, is to run a low magic campaign. Have Bards, Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers and Wizards banned in that cmapaign and Warlocks limited in number. Then see if you have the same problem with certain classes out performing others, let Rogue/Arcane Tricksters be proto-bards, Rangers be the forerunners to Druids etc.

Yeah, cutting out about half the classes is an amputation, not a fix. Not saying no one should ever run such a campaign, but it’s not really a “solution” imo, it’s just a niche campaign format.

I would just cut all the bonus damages from crits, smites, rages, whatevers and transition them to additional attacks. Instead of 1d8+2d8+2d6+whatever all doubled on one attack, give a bonus attack on a crit, divine smite is 2 bonus attacks, green flame blade is a bonus attack, so on and so forth. That way martials are better against hordes but can still chain all those attacks against a single target if need be. Average damage will still be in the same ballpark, but now martials are more useful against large numbers of enemies, and you get to have fun tossing dice. “Let me see, that’s 14 attacks, hold on, let me get more d20s, ‘k?” 

Wait - you don’t already have 14 D20s?

I'm fine with bringing Whirlwind Attack back as a feat for martial characters, but removing bonus damage in favor of just adding a bunch of extra attacks is a horrible idea.