It is not like at level 6 they gain access to a warhammer than does 3d8.
What if they did?
No, I'm being serious here. What if Martials did gain a weapon that scaled with them?
The traditional argument against magical weapons in 5e is really based in the whole "you can't add a +5 because that breaks bounded accuracy" and "why do they need a weapon like that?"
But, what if, instead of a bonus to hit, the weapon caused increased damage according to the level of the caster?
Something like every four levels it does an additional die of damage? For Monks, make "Mittens of Punching" or some such. Add in the cleave rule to that.
Don't want to do it as a magical item, prefer the special ability way? Fine, give fighters the ability to hone their skill with a weapon such that they do increased damage in the same way with particular weapons, add in some silly mechanic about how it costs extra money and takes up all their downtime or whatever. Hell, make it a Feat for all it matters.
It is a special longsword, forged in the fires of the Red Smith in the Black Swamp, quenched in the bellies of the great lizards that thrive in the oily muck. In the hands of someone who knows not the proper way to use it, who hasn't spent the time and training to understand its properties, it is but a sword, no different from any other,.
But for the warrior it was made for it comes almost to life, and outshines other blades, however glittery and gilded.
Masters of all weapons? Fine, make it so they have to earn each kind of special weapon that they love and know and benefit from. Or aff an attunement like system to the whole thing.
I mean, for all that we have talked about cutting casters off at the knees, few have actually talked about giving warriors something more that doesn't involve some kind of structural change to the game (and let us be frank, a lot of those who have want to see structural changes, and all of them think their changes are the best options, and some of them think that anyone who doesn't want it that way just doesn't know what's good for them and they should just sit down and listen to them and not bother their little heads with big hard ideas.).
But why can't we give them a weapon that does significantly more damage over time, scaling up with them?
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
It is not like at level 6 they gain access to a warhammer than does 3d8.
What if they did?
No, I'm being serious here. What if Martials did gain a weapon that scaled with them?
The traditional argument against magical weapons in 5e is really based in the whole "you can't add a +5 because that breaks bounded accuracy" and "why do they need a weapon like that?"
But, what if, instead of a bonus to hit, the weapon caused increased damage according to the level of the caster?
Something like every four levels it does an additional die of damage? For Monks, make "Mittens of Punching" or some such. Add in the cleave rule to that.
Don't want to do it as a magical item, prefer the special ability way? Fine, give fighters the ability to hone their skill with a weapon such that they do increased damage in the same way with particular weapons, add in some silly mechanic about how it costs extra money and takes up all their downtime or whatever. Hell, make it a Feat for all it matters.
It is a special longsword, forged in the fires of the Red Smith in the Black Swamp, quenched in the bellies of the great lizards that thrive in the oily muck. In the hands of someone who knows not the proper way to use it, who hasn't spent the time and training to understand its properties, it is but a sword, no different from any other,.
But for the warrior it was made for it comes almost to life, and outshines other blades, however glittery and gilded.
Masters of all weapons? Fine, make it so they have to earn each kind of special weapon that they love and know and benefit from. Or aff an attunement like system to the whole thing.
I mean, for all that we have talked about cutting casters off at the knees, few have actually talked about giving warriors something more that doesn't involve some kind of structural change to the game (and let us be frank, a lot of those who have want to see structural changes, and all of them think their changes are the best options, and some of them think that anyone who doesn't want it that way just doesn't know what's good for them and they should just sit down and listen to them and not bother their little heads with big hard ideas.).
But why can't we give them a weapon that does significantly more damage over time, scaling up with them?
This is a very good observation but I think it's important to note that 5e has been around for 10 years and in that time virtually no one plays the game as it was designed to be played. People quite literally take 5th edition core rules, throw out the basis upon which the entire game is balanced (6-8 Encounters per day) and then want to have a conversation about how the game or classes are not balanced. This raises a lot of the question, not the least of which is, if you are not running by the core rules, what is the difference between the version of 5e you are running and the version of 5e I'm running?
How can you and I have a conversation about what the balance issues of the game are if we are not even running the same game?
Without a foundation from which the conversation begins, we are all talking about completely different games and gaming experiences which color our perceptions. You see an issue with martial classes being too weak, one guy see's casters as being too powerful, while a third guy doesn't see a problem at all. Now you can chalk some of that to opinions, but its far more likely that these three opinions are born from three completely different experiences, which raises the question, how is that possible if we are all using the same game mechanic.
The answer is that 5e doesn't have a particularly good core balance, no one runs 6-8 encounters per day so whatever balance is intended by the core rules, its not actually even part of how people play the game, leaving everyone essentially running their own version of 5e that is going to be wildly different from one to the other.
You want to know why the UA is a complete catastrophe? Its because WotC isn't even aware that this is happening, they just want to know what we think, but since the basis of the conversation is all over the place depending on who you ask, the inevitable answer is that there will never be a consensus on anything.
They need to set a standard of game balance of the core game from which all of us can have the same conversation. Until they do that, this game will continue to be the complete cluster**** it is today.
It is not like at level 6 they gain access to a warhammer than does 3d8.
What if they did?
No, I'm being serious here. What if Martials did gain a weapon that scaled with them?
The traditional argument against magical weapons in 5e is really based in the whole "you can't add a +5 because that breaks bounded accuracy" and "why do they need a weapon like that?"
But, what if, instead of a bonus to hit, the weapon caused increased damage according to the level of the caster?
Something like every four levels it does an additional die of damage? For Monks, make "Mittens of Punching" or some such. Add in the cleave rule to that.
Don't want to do it as a magical item, prefer the special ability way? Fine, give fighters the ability to hone their skill with a weapon such that they do increased damage in the same way with particular weapons, add in some silly mechanic about how it costs extra money and takes up all their downtime or whatever. Hell, make it a Feat for all it matters.
It is a special longsword, forged in the fires of the Red Smith in the Black Swamp, quenched in the bellies of the great lizards that thrive in the oily muck. In the hands of someone who knows not the proper way to use it, who hasn't spent the time and training to understand its properties, it is but a sword, no different from any other,.
But for the warrior it was made for it comes almost to life, and outshines other blades, however glittery and gilded.
Masters of all weapons? Fine, make it so they have to earn each kind of special weapon that they love and know and benefit from. Or aff an attunement like system to the whole thing.
I mean, for all that we have talked about cutting casters off at the knees, few have actually talked about giving warriors something more that doesn't involve some kind of structural change to the game (and let us be frank, a lot of those who have want to see structural changes, and all of them think their changes are the best options, and some of them think that anyone who doesn't want it that way just doesn't know what's good for them and they should just sit down and listen to them and not bother their little heads with big hard ideas.).
But why can't we give them a weapon that does significantly more damage over time, scaling up with them?
It's cool concept. Think about this too - it's something the casters already have with shadow blade, holy weapon and other such spells (yeah yeah I know the limited resources argument). It's not even just on the offensive side (shield anyone).
If worried about the limited resources argument then fighters could have some limited resource on this stuff too representing their fatigue or whatever.
You could instead of giving the fighter something that never goes away like increased damage as they level up.
Let them spend hit die. Just like they use them to recover hit points let them spend them instead on attack damage.
That way they spend more like the casters spell slots and level up the same.
If the fighter has 12 hit die they can chose to spend them on 1 or more die per attack or all at once on one attack. But they can not use them later to recover hit points.
It is not like at level 6 they gain access to a warhammer than does 3d8.
What if they did?
No, I'm being serious here. What if Martials did gain a weapon that scaled with them?
The traditional argument against magical weapons in 5e is really based in the whole "you can't add a +5 because that breaks bounded accuracy" and "why do they need a weapon like that?"
But, what if, instead of a bonus to hit, the weapon caused increased damage according to the level of the caster?
Something like every four levels it does an additional die of damage? For Monks, make "Mittens of Punching" or some such. Add in the cleave rule to that.
Don't want to do it as a magical item, prefer the special ability way? Fine, give fighters the ability to hone their skill with a weapon such that they do increased damage in the same way with particular weapons, add in some silly mechanic about how it costs extra money and takes up all their downtime or whatever. Hell, make it a Feat for all it matters.
It is a special longsword, forged in the fires of the Red Smith in the Black Swamp, quenched in the bellies of the great lizards that thrive in the oily muck. In the hands of someone who knows not the proper way to use it, who hasn't spent the time and training to understand its properties, it is but a sword, no different from any other,.
But for the warrior it was made for it comes almost to life, and outshines other blades, however glittery and gilded.
Masters of all weapons? Fine, make it so they have to earn each kind of special weapon that they love and know and benefit from. Or aff an attunement like system to the whole thing.
I mean, for all that we have talked about cutting casters off at the knees, few have actually talked about giving warriors something more that doesn't involve some kind of structural change to the game (and let us be frank, a lot of those who have want to see structural changes, and all of them think their changes are the best options, and some of them think that anyone who doesn't want it that way just doesn't know what's good for them and they should just sit down and listen to them and not bother their little heads with big hard ideas.).
But why can't we give them a weapon that does significantly more damage over time, scaling up with them?
This is a very good observation.
Aw, thank you.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
It is not like at level 6 they gain access to a warhammer than does 3d8.
What if they did?
No, I'm being serious here. What if Martials did gain a weapon that scaled with them?
The traditional argument against magical weapons in 5e is really based in the whole "you can't add a +5 because that breaks bounded accuracy" and "why do they need a weapon like that?"
But, what if, instead of a bonus to hit, the weapon caused increased damage according to the level of the caster?
Something like every four levels it does an additional die of damage? For Monks, make "Mittens of Punching" or some such. Add in the cleave rule to that.
Don't want to do it as a magical item, prefer the special ability way? Fine, give fighters the ability to hone their skill with a weapon such that they do increased damage in the same way with particular weapons, add in some silly mechanic about how it costs extra money and takes up all their downtime or whatever. Hell, make it a Feat for all it matters.
It is a special longsword, forged in the fires of the Red Smith in the Black Swamp, quenched in the bellies of the great lizards that thrive in the oily muck. In the hands of someone who knows not the proper way to use it, who hasn't spent the time and training to understand its properties, it is but a sword, no different from any other,.
But for the warrior it was made for it comes almost to life, and outshines other blades, however glittery and gilded.
Masters of all weapons? Fine, make it so they have to earn each kind of special weapon that they love and know and benefit from. Or aff an attunement like system to the whole thing.
I mean, for all that we have talked about cutting casters off at the knees, few have actually talked about giving warriors something more that doesn't involve some kind of structural change to the game (and let us be frank, a lot of those who have want to see structural changes, and all of them think their changes are the best options, and some of them think that anyone who doesn't want it that way just doesn't know what's good for them and they should just sit down and listen to them and not bother their little heads with big hard ideas.).
But why can't we give them a weapon that does significantly more damage over time, scaling up with them?
It's cool concept. Think about this too - it's something the casters already have with shadow blade, holy weapon and other such spells (yeah yeah I know the limited resources argument). It's not even just on the offensive side (shield anyone).
If worried about the limited resources argument then fighters could have some limited resource on this stuff too representing their fatigue or whatever.
I'm not sure the resources argument has much merit (hence my not injecting stuff) predominantly on the basis of limited capacity to care on the part of most players who don't even want to have to track hit points, let alone 80 other items.
There's a really cool system elsewhere here, called Martial Actions, introduced a whole homebrewed system of things.I like some of the ideas in it a lot, like some ideas less.
This, however, is simple enough that it can be implemented without a whole lot of problem or trouble by even a very inexperienced DM. It wouldn't overly wreck the structure.
The ultimate "right solution" is always going to depend on the particular style of the campaign and the specific DM running it.
s OSR pointed out, everyone is playing with the same core rues, but those rules are all tweaked in some way or other because of that variation in style and setting.
WHile OSR represents it as a problem, I tend to see it as a benefit, because from a DM standpoint, there are only three rules I really give a shit about: Make it your own, Be Consistent, and Have Fun.
Most tables actually do have a pretty basic standard set of rules because most tables are run by folks with under 5 years experience as a DM and people who have absolutely no interest in creating their own worlds or developing game mechanics Over half of all games played are done on and in an unmodified FR setting and are using the rules as written.
For the majority of *those* players, the only RPG they have ever played is 5e -- and they have no interest in playing other ones.
I am generally uninterested in inflicting changes on others -- and I am opposed to doing so as part of the game's core basis, even if the folks doing so own the game and are allowed otherwise to do it. Because on major disagreement i have is with the idea that players don't know what they want.
They do. They know very much and very precisely what they want. They want the fantasy of their character in a particular setting in their head that is doing incredible things, be it swinging a sword or slinging spells. They don't want to die and they want to become very powerful, so no creature threatens them.
DMs know what they want, as well. Most of them want something that is fast, easy, role playing friendly, that lets them have a character who is a bad guy whose evil plan almost succeeds (or possibly does succeed). THey want to have puzzles and tricks that confound those all powerful characters and they want monsters that they struggle with.
In short, they want what 5e is.
The rules about resources? They bog stuff down. The ideas about grimdark style gritty campaigns? Boring. That arcane discourse on the underlying mechanics of a system? WHo cares -- unless it helps me be the best character at the table!
And I don't get any of that from here, lol. That is, none of that info comes from the forums. All of it comes from studies done over the last 20 years of the hobby. Most people see LCD and think of a screen. I see LCD and I think Least Common Denominator from a social perspective.
And like others here, I have been playing this game a very long time. We are the ever shrinking minority, and the kind of things we played are very much narrowed down to precisely what we enjoy. Most of the things that went into inspiring the game as a whole -- books, specifically -- are no longer actively owned or read or used by the players these days. Their inspiration is movies and games and tv shows.
They don't understand the way that Stormbringer challenged Elric because they've never read Elric, they don't understand the nature of Chaos. They are closer to Merlin than to Corwin. They know the Discworld novels more commonly, which are humor and whimsy and pns so broad and wide that they meme things about jokes within the joke and rarely see the larger one because they don't have the frame of reference.
And the thing to realize is that none of that is *bad*.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
This is a very good observation but I think it's important to note that 5e has been around for 10 years and in that time virtually no one plays the game as it was designed to be played. People quite literally take 5th edition core rules, throw out the basis upon which the entire game is balanced (6-8 Encounters per day) and then want to have a conversation about how the game or classes are not balanced.
The 'X encounters per day' logic was introduced in 3e, persisted into 4e, and persisted further into 5e, and was never reflected in actual play. You'd think at some point they'd realize that it doesn't work and get rid of it, but no...
You start with 1 Honored Weapon. An honored weapon allows you to apply your proficiency bonus to damage rolls.
At level 5, you gain a second honored weapon, or you can move up 1 place on the die chain on damage rolls for one honored weapon.
At level 9 you gain a third honored weapon, or you can move up 1 place on the die chain on damage rolls for one honored weapon.
At level 13 you gain a fourth honored weapon, or you can move up 1 place on the die chain on damage rolls for one honored weapon.
At level 17 you gain a fifth honored weapon, or you can move up 1 place on the die chain on damage rolls for one honored weapon.
Extra Attacks
You start with 2 attack rolls per Turn. Both count as your attack action.
At level 5, you gain a third.
At level 9 you gain a fourth.
At level 13 you gain a fifth.
At level 17 you gain a sixth.
Fighting Spirit
Your intensity in battle can shield you or help you strike more swiftly.
At 1 Level, you can use this to give yourself 1d6 temporary hit points as part of your action.
At 5 Level, you can either add 2d6 hit points or you can take an additional action.
At 9 Level, you can either add 3d6 hit points or you can take an additional action.
At 13 Level, you can either add 4d6 hit points or you can take an additional action.
At 17 Level, you can either add 5d6 hit points or you can take an additional action.
You can use this feature three times, and you regain one use after a short rest and all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest.
Defender
Starting at 1 Level, you can expend one of your Fighting Spirit uses to defend another person within five feet of you.
1 Level: reduces damage by Strength modifier plus proficiency bonus.
9 Level: redirects attack on next turn to you, reduces damage by Strength modifier plus proficiency bonus.
13 Level: redirects and reduces damage by Strength modifier plus proficiency bonus plus your Dexterity modifier.
This makes use of a die chain (d4, d6. d8, d10, d12), which is an outside mechanic.
Scales, makes use of existing systems for the most part, potentially makes a fighter a heavyweight, but...
Would require rewriting the subclasses, lol.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Like being proficient in a variety of weaponry and armors?
You make a valid point. Spells can overcome many of the deficiencies of a character. It is one thing to use a spell to bolster the party's expert to execute a task and another to allow the spellcaster to succeed in an activity that is not in their wheelhouse. I agree this can be problematic at tables, and the use of such spells should be limited to fill in a gap in the party's makeup and not to take away another player's opportunity that their character was built for.
It is not like at level 6 they gain access to a warhammer than does 3d8.
What if they did?
No, I'm being serious here. What if Martials did gain a weapon that scaled with them?
The traditional argument against magical weapons in 5e is really based in the whole "you can't add a +5 because that breaks bounded accuracy" and "why do they need a weapon like that?"
But, what if, instead of a bonus to hit, the weapon caused increased damage according to the level of the caster?
Something like every four levels it does an additional die of damage? For Monks, make "Mittens of Punching" or some such. Add in the cleave rule to that.
Don't want to do it as a magical item, prefer the special ability way? Fine, give fighters the ability to hone their skill with a weapon such that they do increased damage in the same way with particular weapons, add in some silly mechanic about how it costs extra money and takes up all their downtime or whatever. Hell, make it a Feat for all it matters.
It is a special longsword, forged in the fires of the Red Smith in the Black Swamp, quenched in the bellies of the great lizards that thrive in the oily muck. In the hands of someone who knows not the proper way to use it, who hasn't spent the time and training to understand its properties, it is but a sword, no different from any other,.
But for the warrior it was made for it comes almost to life, and outshines other blades, however glittery and gilded.
Masters of all weapons? Fine, make it so they have to earn each kind of special weapon that they love and know and benefit from. Or aff an attunement like system to the whole thing.
I mean, for all that we have talked about cutting casters off at the knees, few have actually talked about giving warriors something more that doesn't involve some kind of structural change to the game (and let us be frank, a lot of those who have want to see structural changes, and all of them think their changes are the best options, and some of them think that anyone who doesn't want it that way just doesn't know what's good for them and they should just sit down and listen to them and not bother their little heads with big hard ideas.).
But why can't we give them a weapon that does significantly more damage over time, scaling up with them?
You make a very interesting observation and great idea for this discussion.
First, let me clarify my point, I don't feel that a martial class should just see all weaponry increase from 1d to 3d (represented my comment of the warhammer) in damage (and I suppose that would imply that 2d6 would become 4d6). I think PHB should be respected for their weapon definitions.
Back to your point, the more I think about this there is something that can work here. I am thinking something like a "expertise" feature for the fighter in which they can pick a weapon class (hammers, swords, axes, etc.) and with their skills they increase the lethality of weapons in the chosen class. Bound it that they can execute this feature once per turn: I can see how a fighter doing 9d8 plus 3xAttack Modifier per round could get out hand. And there is a precedent in the game for characters to once per turn do extra dice damage, so I don't see why the fighter class shouldn't be allowed such a feature. Also to your point, the die value can increase over level improvements within the class.
And I think there is room for your proposal that the character can learn additional weapons over the course of their development. Excellent observations; thank you for starting this discussion.
It is intentionally set up to enable some of the OP's specific comments, and reflect some of the stuff from the conversation here. It uses the current ethos of "give them the power", and does not even look at casters.
It is indeed a basic rewrite of the core features of the Fighter Class. Limitations would need to be placed on it because I wrote it really quick, lol. As an example, it could be interpreted to give a fighter a lot more attacks through fighting spirit, but the goal is only one more attack or they can take the damage boost.
I used the term "Honored Weapon" but it could be named anything: weapon specialization is really the core concept there -- they get really good with that one particular weapon. I am not personally fond of the way they assigned "weapon properties" in a lot of cases -- I think that many of those are things that are determined by the skill of the weapon's user, and that only some classes should have access t those things. This is one way to mark the as separate without changing that basic rule, and the rationalization for increasing damage can be just about anything. It all boils down to "in the hands of a fighter, a weapon is more dangerous".
The theoretical damage output from a 19th level fighter built like this is astronomical. Toss in the cleave mechanic, and you have a fighter who literally can wade through low CR enemies and wipe out entire swaths of them in a single attack -- and they have many attacks, and they can endure the returning attacks more readily.
Then they have the ability to work together with others. A line of three of them acting as defenders for each other could handle a situation where they are outnumbered for more effectively, and lays a foundation for not just teamwork with others, but also in terms of defending some damn fool caster who gets up front.
Add Battlemaster to this and you have someone who can essentially control an entire battlefield. Add samurai, and they have a sword soul. Add the magic one and you have a tank that can stand beside the artillery.
As a DM, I would be challenged by a fighter like this. The short rest mechanics gives a balancing effect for games that use short rests without overdoing it, and the ability to withstand low level stuff is enhanced and improves over time.
Since it doesn't nerf casters and doesn't give magical abilities, it stays true to the core ethos in multiple ways -- and it doesn't make fighters complicated. They just fight. They get better as they fight, period. They are weapons of mass destruction, and if you do a brawler type, you can even take away their toys and they will be dangerous.
I would like to see some sort of "speed" increase, as well -- a rushing style of attack that closes before a caster can prepare. It is the one thing that isn't in their core ability set as presented, but it could be factored in fairly easily.
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Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
How did we get here? I think if you look back at the origins of the game (ad&d) then you see that casters used to be much weaker
- their hitdice were smaller
- their con bonuses were capped on +2 hp/level
- their spells could be disrupted by attackers
- it was fairly limited in terms of being able to wear armor and still cast arcane spells
- multiclassing was much differently designed and more limited (whether the non-human multiclass or the human dual-class - both were much more limited)
Meanwhile what has happened to fighters/martials
- In the name of bounded accuracy heavier armor won't let you use your full dex bonus
- saving throws are based on ability scores instead of class based
- weapon specialization is gone
I think the issue is that as editions have crept forward the magic side of things has been going up in power and at best the martial side has stood still.
I didn't play 3/3.5/4 so I'd be interested in hearing how things evolved there.
How did we get here? I think if you look back at the origins of the game (ad&d) then you see that casters used to be much weaker
So were martials. Low level casters were really bad in AD&D, but by mid level they overtook martials and by high levels they were stronger (relative to martials) than they are in 5e. What happened in 3e is that they made low level casters better and didn't do anything to fix the high level issues.
This is a very good observation but I think it's important to note that 5e has been around for 10 years and in that time virtually no one plays the game as it was designed to be played. People quite literally take 5th edition core rules, throw out the basis upon which the entire game is balanced (6-8 Encounters per day) and then want to have a conversation about how the game or classes are not balanced.
The 'X encounters per day' logic was introduced in 3e, persisted into 4e, and persisted further into 5e, and was never reflected in actual play. You'd think at some point they'd realize that it doesn't work and get rid of it, but no...
I've got to say that many people keep bring up the encounters per day thing. My groups use it. It simply does not matter. In a day that long the martials run out of hit points and hit dice (and the barbarian is out of rages, the echo knight is out of incarnations, etc). Martials are not resourceless they just have fewer resources to manage. Not all resources for martials come back on short rest.
This "encounters per day" argument simple does not hold water in my experience.
It is intentionally set up to enable some of the OP's specific comments, and reflect some of the stuff from the conversation here. It uses the current ethos of "give them the power", and does not even look at casters.
It is indeed a basic rewrite of the core features of the Fighter Class. Limitations would need to be placed on it because I wrote it really quick, lol. As an example, it could be interpreted to give a fighter a lot more attacks through fighting spirit, but the goal is only one more attack or they can take the damage boost.
I used the term "Honored Weapon" but it could be named anything: weapon specialization is really the core concept there -- they get really good with that one particular weapon. I am not personally fond of the way they assigned "weapon properties" in a lot of cases -- I think that many of those are things that are determined by the skill of the weapon's user, and that only some classes should have access t those things. This is one way to mark the as separate without changing that basic rule, and the rationalization for increasing damage can be just about anything. It all boils down to "in the hands of a fighter, a weapon is more dangerous".
The theoretical damage output from a 19th level fighter built like this is astronomical. Toss in the cleave mechanic, and you have a fighter who literally can wade through low CR enemies and wipe out entire swaths of them in a single attack -- and they have many attacks, and they can endure the returning attacks more readily.
Then they have the ability to work together with others. A line of three of them acting as defenders for each other could handle a situation where they are outnumbered for more effectively, and lays a foundation for not just teamwork with others, but also in terms of defending some damn fool caster who gets up front.
Add Battlemaster to this and you have someone who can essentially control an entire battlefield. Add samurai, and they have a sword soul. Add the magic one and you have a tank that can stand beside the artillery.
As a DM, I would be challenged by a fighter like this. The short rest mechanics gives a balancing effect for games that use short rests without overdoing it, and the ability to withstand low level stuff is enhanced and improves over time.
Since it doesn't nerf casters and doesn't give magical abilities, it stays true to the core ethos in multiple ways -- and it doesn't make fighters complicated. They just fight. They get better as they fight, period. They are weapons of mass destruction, and if you do a brawler type, you can even take away their toys and they will be dangerous.
I would like to see some sort of "speed" increase, as well -- a rushing style of attack that closes before a caster can prepare. It is the one thing that isn't in their core ability set as presented, but it could be factored in fairly easily.
Some really great ideas in here. One way you could potentially balance things is make it a choice for the fighter - more attacks or harder hitting attacks on a turn by turn basis. That would give them a meaningful choice to make based on the current situation which is one of the things they lack right now.
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Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
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This is the core problem. People take offense at the idea of martials actually being good.
Pause for a moment.
What if they did?
No, I'm being serious here. What if Martials did gain a weapon that scaled with them?
The traditional argument against magical weapons in 5e is really based in the whole "you can't add a +5 because that breaks bounded accuracy" and "why do they need a weapon like that?"
But, what if, instead of a bonus to hit, the weapon caused increased damage according to the level of the caster?
Something like every four levels it does an additional die of damage? For Monks, make "Mittens of Punching" or some such. Add in the cleave rule to that.
Don't want to do it as a magical item, prefer the special ability way? Fine, give fighters the ability to hone their skill with a weapon such that they do increased damage in the same way with particular weapons, add in some silly mechanic about how it costs extra money and takes up all their downtime or whatever. Hell, make it a Feat for all it matters.
It is a special longsword, forged in the fires of the Red Smith in the Black Swamp, quenched in the bellies of the great lizards that thrive in the oily muck. In the hands of someone who knows not the proper way to use it, who hasn't spent the time and training to understand its properties, it is but a sword, no different from any other,.
But for the warrior it was made for it comes almost to life, and outshines other blades, however glittery and gilded.
Masters of all weapons? Fine, make it so they have to earn each kind of special weapon that they love and know and benefit from. Or aff an attunement like system to the whole thing.
I mean, for all that we have talked about cutting casters off at the knees, few have actually talked about giving warriors something more that doesn't involve some kind of structural change to the game (and let us be frank, a lot of those who have want to see structural changes, and all of them think their changes are the best options, and some of them think that anyone who doesn't want it that way just doesn't know what's good for them and they should just sit down and listen to them and not bother their little heads with big hard ideas.).
But why can't we give them a weapon that does significantly more damage over time, scaling up with them?
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
This is a very good observation but I think it's important to note that 5e has been around for 10 years and in that time virtually no one plays the game as it was designed to be played. People quite literally take 5th edition core rules, throw out the basis upon which the entire game is balanced (6-8 Encounters per day) and then want to have a conversation about how the game or classes are not balanced. This raises a lot of the question, not the least of which is, if you are not running by the core rules, what is the difference between the version of 5e you are running and the version of 5e I'm running?
How can you and I have a conversation about what the balance issues of the game are if we are not even running the same game?
Without a foundation from which the conversation begins, we are all talking about completely different games and gaming experiences which color our perceptions. You see an issue with martial classes being too weak, one guy see's casters as being too powerful, while a third guy doesn't see a problem at all. Now you can chalk some of that to opinions, but its far more likely that these three opinions are born from three completely different experiences, which raises the question, how is that possible if we are all using the same game mechanic.
The answer is that 5e doesn't have a particularly good core balance, no one runs 6-8 encounters per day so whatever balance is intended by the core rules, its not actually even part of how people play the game, leaving everyone essentially running their own version of 5e that is going to be wildly different from one to the other.
You want to know why the UA is a complete catastrophe? Its because WotC isn't even aware that this is happening, they just want to know what we think, but since the basis of the conversation is all over the place depending on who you ask, the inevitable answer is that there will never be a consensus on anything.
They need to set a standard of game balance of the core game from which all of us can have the same conversation. Until they do that, this game will continue to be the complete cluster**** it is today.
It's cool concept. Think about this too - it's something the casters already have with shadow blade, holy weapon and other such spells (yeah yeah I know the limited resources argument). It's not even just on the offensive side (shield anyone).
If worried about the limited resources argument then fighters could have some limited resource on this stuff too representing their fatigue or whatever.
You could instead of giving the fighter something that never goes away like increased damage as they level up.
Let them spend hit die. Just like they use them to recover hit points let them spend them instead on attack damage.
That way they spend more like the casters spell slots and level up the same.
If the fighter has 12 hit die they can chose to spend them on 1 or more die per attack or all at once on one attack. But they can not use them later to recover hit points.
Aw, thank you.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Another way to make martials. better is to nerf some of the AC creep on casters.
This video (start at 6:30) has three great house rules for doing this:
https://youtu.be/PbsTKreJwsk?si=yKrxNumatuchtCsU
I'm not sure the resources argument has much merit (hence my not injecting stuff) predominantly on the basis of limited capacity to care on the part of most players who don't even want to have to track hit points, let alone 80 other items.
There's a really cool system elsewhere here, called Martial Actions, introduced a whole homebrewed system of things.I like some of the ideas in it a lot, like some ideas less.
This, however, is simple enough that it can be implemented without a whole lot of problem or trouble by even a very inexperienced DM. It wouldn't overly wreck the structure.
The ultimate "right solution" is always going to depend on the particular style of the campaign and the specific DM running it.
s OSR pointed out, everyone is playing with the same core rues, but those rules are all tweaked in some way or other because of that variation in style and setting.
WHile OSR represents it as a problem, I tend to see it as a benefit, because from a DM standpoint, there are only three rules I really give a shit about: Make it your own, Be Consistent, and Have Fun.
Most tables actually do have a pretty basic standard set of rules because most tables are run by folks with under 5 years experience as a DM and people who have absolutely no interest in creating their own worlds or developing game mechanics Over half of all games played are done on and in an unmodified FR setting and are using the rules as written.
For the majority of *those* players, the only RPG they have ever played is 5e -- and they have no interest in playing other ones.
I am generally uninterested in inflicting changes on others -- and I am opposed to doing so as part of the game's core basis, even if the folks doing so own the game and are allowed otherwise to do it. Because on major disagreement i have is with the idea that players don't know what they want.
They do. They know very much and very precisely what they want. They want the fantasy of their character in a particular setting in their head that is doing incredible things, be it swinging a sword or slinging spells. They don't want to die and they want to become very powerful, so no creature threatens them.
DMs know what they want, as well. Most of them want something that is fast, easy, role playing friendly, that lets them have a character who is a bad guy whose evil plan almost succeeds (or possibly does succeed). THey want to have puzzles and tricks that confound those all powerful characters and they want monsters that they struggle with.
In short, they want what 5e is.
The rules about resources? They bog stuff down. The ideas about grimdark style gritty campaigns? Boring. That arcane discourse on the underlying mechanics of a system? WHo cares -- unless it helps me be the best character at the table!
And I don't get any of that from here, lol. That is, none of that info comes from the forums. All of it comes from studies done over the last 20 years of the hobby. Most people see LCD and think of a screen. I see LCD and I think Least Common Denominator from a social perspective.
And like others here, I have been playing this game a very long time. We are the ever shrinking minority, and the kind of things we played are very much narrowed down to precisely what we enjoy. Most of the things that went into inspiring the game as a whole -- books, specifically -- are no longer actively owned or read or used by the players these days. Their inspiration is movies and games and tv shows.
They don't understand the way that Stormbringer challenged Elric because they've never read Elric, they don't understand the nature of Chaos. They are closer to Merlin than to Corwin. They know the Discworld novels more commonly, which are humor and whimsy and pns so broad and wide that they meme things about jokes within the joke and rarely see the larger one because they don't have the frame of reference.
And the thing to realize is that none of that is *bad*.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
TLDR:
- ban shield
- limit spell caster armor access
- GWM -5/+10 available on any weapon attack
The 'X encounters per day' logic was introduced in 3e, persisted into 4e, and persisted further into 5e, and was never reflected in actual play. You'd think at some point they'd realize that it doesn't work and get rid of it, but no...
hmmmm
Fighting Style
You start with 2 Fighting Style choices.
At level 5, you gain a third.
At level 9 you gain a fourth.
At level 13 you gain a fifth.
At level 17 you gain a sixth.
Honored Weapon
You start with 1 Honored Weapon. An honored weapon allows you to apply your proficiency bonus to damage rolls.
At level 5, you gain a second honored weapon, or you can move up 1 place on the die chain on damage rolls for one honored weapon.
At level 9 you gain a third honored weapon, or you can move up 1 place on the die chain on damage rolls for one honored weapon.
At level 13 you gain a fourth honored weapon, or you can move up 1 place on the die chain on damage rolls for one honored weapon.
At level 17 you gain a fifth honored weapon, or you can move up 1 place on the die chain on damage rolls for one honored weapon.
Extra Attacks
You start with 2 attack rolls per Turn. Both count as your attack action.
At level 5, you gain a third.
At level 9 you gain a fourth.
At level 13 you gain a fifth.
At level 17 you gain a sixth.
Fighting Spirit
Your intensity in battle can shield you or help you strike more swiftly.
At 1 Level, you can use this to give yourself 1d6 temporary hit points as part of your action.
At 5 Level, you can either add 2d6 hit points or you can take an additional action.
At 9 Level, you can either add 3d6 hit points or you can take an additional action.
At 13 Level, you can either add 4d6 hit points or you can take an additional action.
At 17 Level, you can either add 5d6 hit points or you can take an additional action.
You can use this feature three times, and you regain one use after a short rest and all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest.
Defender
Starting at 1 Level, you can expend one of your Fighting Spirit uses to defend another person within five feet of you.
1 Level: reduces damage by Strength modifier plus proficiency bonus.
9 Level: redirects attack on next turn to you, reduces damage by Strength modifier plus proficiency bonus.
13 Level: redirects and reduces damage by Strength modifier plus proficiency bonus plus your Dexterity modifier.
This makes use of a die chain (d4, d6. d8, d10, d12), which is an outside mechanic.
Scales, makes use of existing systems for the most part, potentially makes a fighter a heavyweight, but...
Would require rewriting the subclasses, lol.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Like being proficient in a variety of weaponry and armors?
You make a valid point. Spells can overcome many of the deficiencies of a character. It is one thing to use a spell to bolster the party's expert to execute a task and another to allow the spellcaster to succeed in an activity that is not in their wheelhouse. I agree this can be problematic at tables, and the use of such spells should be limited to fill in a gap in the party's makeup and not to take away another player's opportunity that their character was built for.
You make a very interesting observation and great idea for this discussion.
First, let me clarify my point, I don't feel that a martial class should just see all weaponry increase from 1d to 3d (represented my comment of the warhammer) in damage (and I suppose that would imply that 2d6 would become 4d6). I think PHB should be respected for their weapon definitions.
Back to your point, the more I think about this there is something that can work here. I am thinking something like a "expertise" feature for the fighter in which they can pick a weapon class (hammers, swords, axes, etc.) and with their skills they increase the lethality of weapons in the chosen class. Bound it that they can execute this feature once per turn: I can see how a fighter doing 9d8 plus 3xAttack Modifier per round could get out hand. And there is a precedent in the game for characters to once per turn do extra dice damage, so I don't see why the fighter class shouldn't be allowed such a feature. Also to your point, the die value can increase over level improvements within the class.
And I think there is room for your proposal that the character can learn additional weapons over the course of their development. Excellent observations; thank you for starting this discussion.
So, some notes on my spoiler hidden suggestion.
It is intentionally set up to enable some of the OP's specific comments, and reflect some of the stuff from the conversation here. It uses the current ethos of "give them the power", and does not even look at casters.
It is indeed a basic rewrite of the core features of the Fighter Class. Limitations would need to be placed on it because I wrote it really quick, lol. As an example, it could be interpreted to give a fighter a lot more attacks through fighting spirit, but the goal is only one more attack or they can take the damage boost.
I used the term "Honored Weapon" but it could be named anything: weapon specialization is really the core concept there -- they get really good with that one particular weapon. I am not personally fond of the way they assigned "weapon properties" in a lot of cases -- I think that many of those are things that are determined by the skill of the weapon's user, and that only some classes should have access t those things. This is one way to mark the as separate without changing that basic rule, and the rationalization for increasing damage can be just about anything. It all boils down to "in the hands of a fighter, a weapon is more dangerous".
The theoretical damage output from a 19th level fighter built like this is astronomical. Toss in the cleave mechanic, and you have a fighter who literally can wade through low CR enemies and wipe out entire swaths of them in a single attack -- and they have many attacks, and they can endure the returning attacks more readily.
Then they have the ability to work together with others. A line of three of them acting as defenders for each other could handle a situation where they are outnumbered for more effectively, and lays a foundation for not just teamwork with others, but also in terms of defending some damn fool caster who gets up front.
Add Battlemaster to this and you have someone who can essentially control an entire battlefield. Add samurai, and they have a sword soul. Add the magic one and you have a tank that can stand beside the artillery.
As a DM, I would be challenged by a fighter like this. The short rest mechanics gives a balancing effect for games that use short rests without overdoing it, and the ability to withstand low level stuff is enhanced and improves over time.
Since it doesn't nerf casters and doesn't give magical abilities, it stays true to the core ethos in multiple ways -- and it doesn't make fighters complicated. They just fight. They get better as they fight, period. They are weapons of mass destruction, and if you do a brawler type, you can even take away their toys and they will be dangerous.
I would like to see some sort of "speed" increase, as well -- a rushing style of attack that closes before a caster can prepare. It is the one thing that isn't in their core ability set as presented, but it could be factored in fairly easily.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
How did we get here? I think if you look back at the origins of the game (ad&d) then you see that casters used to be much weaker
- their hitdice were smaller
- their con bonuses were capped on +2 hp/level
- their spells could be disrupted by attackers
- it was fairly limited in terms of being able to wear armor and still cast arcane spells
- multiclassing was much differently designed and more limited (whether the non-human multiclass or the human dual-class - both were much more limited)
Meanwhile what has happened to fighters/martials
- In the name of bounded accuracy heavier armor won't let you use your full dex bonus
- saving throws are based on ability scores instead of class based
- weapon specialization is gone
I think the issue is that as editions have crept forward the magic side of things has been going up in power and at best the martial side has stood still.
I didn't play 3/3.5/4 so I'd be interested in hearing how things evolved there.
So were martials. Low level casters were really bad in AD&D, but by mid level they overtook martials and by high levels they were stronger (relative to martials) than they are in 5e. What happened in 3e is that they made low level casters better and didn't do anything to fix the high level issues.
I've got to say that many people keep bring up the encounters per day thing. My groups use it. It simply does not matter. In a day that long the martials run out of hit points and hit dice (and the barbarian is out of rages, the echo knight is out of incarnations, etc). Martials are not resourceless they just have fewer resources to manage. Not all resources for martials come back on short rest.
This "encounters per day" argument simple does not hold water in my experience.
Some really great ideas in here. One way you could potentially balance things is make it a choice for the fighter - more attacks or harder hitting attacks on a turn by turn basis. That would give them a meaningful choice to make based on the current situation which is one of the things they lack right now.
What do the casters have left at the same time? As in spells and hit points. They should be close to the same.
You should have a Healer who is buffing the martial's.
If you are not using the casters correctly then your just asking for more more at this point. If you have no casters then get one of two.
For those who didn’t know, if you click on the black “spoiler” box, you can see the entire set of suggestions. It presents five core traits.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds