Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Jeremy Crawford read the spell correctly the first time and made a mistake on his second pass; a hemisphere does not have a base. 

A hemisphere has a flat circular base and a curved surface. So yes, a hemisphere does have a base. Hemispheres have always had bases. Hemispheres have never not had bases. The base is where the sphere is divided by the plane of symmetry. That's what makes a hemisphere a hemisphere and not a cup. The base is the floor of the hemispherical dome that is the Tiny Hut. Without a floor there is no need to have the word hemisphere. 

The only DM I've ever played with that (quite angrily, btw) ruled that the Tiny Hut doesn't have a floor was because he didn't want the players' characters getting a long rest in the wild and want to force them to stockpile exhaustion that could only be cleared in town with a week's downtime "for the challenge". His game was a revolving door for players. Some of us just ended up splintering off and forming our own group which has been together ever since. That doesn't have anything to do with the Floor or no Floor debate. It's just me ranting. But it does serve as a warning for the DMs that want to suddenly decree the hemisphere dome doesn't have a floor. If you're going to do that, let the player(s) know either before or when they're picking the spell. .

Quote from Rathkryn >>

A hemisphere has a flat circular base and a curved surface.

A sphere is the set of points at a fixed distance from a central point. A hemisphere is half of a sphere. Nothing about that definition produces a flat circular base.

Quote from Rathkryn >>

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Jeremy Crawford read the spell correctly the first time and made a mistake on his second pass; a hemisphere does not have a base. 

 

A hemisphere has a flat circular base and a curved surface. So yes, a hemisphere does have a base. Hemispheres have always had bases. Hemispheres have never not had bases. The base is where the sphere is divided by the plane of symmetry. That's what makes a hemisphere a hemisphere and not a cup. The base is the floor of the hemispherical dome that is the Tiny Hut. Without a floor there is no need to have the word hemisphere. 

The only DM I've ever played with that (quite angrily, btw) ruled that the Tiny Hut doesn't have a floor was because he didn't want the players' characters getting a long rest in the wild and want to force them to stockpile exhaustion that could only be cleared in town with a week's downtime "for the challenge". His game was a revolving door for players. Some of us just ended up splintering off and forming our own group which has been together ever since. That doesn't have anything to do with the Floor or no Floor debate. It's just me ranting. But it does serve as a warning for the DMs that want to suddenly decree the hemisphere dome doesn't have a floor. If you're going to do that, let the player(s) know either before or when they're picking the spell. .

Again, I will note that a hemisphere can be a quarter, 4/7ths, or any lesser part of a sphere. 99% of a sphere is a hemisphere.

The term is imprecise in English, not a strict term, so someone could argue that a hemisphere does not have a flat circular base. And no, don't go into geometry, as it fails there, too (and not just because the book is not written in maths, and not just because we are talking about something that ignores earthly maths).

Also,  a bowl may not be a hemisphere, but half an ovoid can be a hemisphere, while an ovoid cannot be a sphere, so this should give you an idea of some of the challenges in trying to argue around a hemisphere using that particular basis since it is not defined within the rules.

Seriously you would be better using the mechanical basis I described above (an sphere that must be bisected by a plane, which accomplished the protective nature of the hut and all that) or just call it a tent, lol.

honestly, the dick move reference above is a better argument, lol.

Quote from AEDorsay >

Again, I will note that a hemisphere can be a quarter, 4/7ths, or any lesser part of a sphere. 99% of a sphere is a hemisphere.

Hemi is defined as half. 

Hemisphere is defined as half of a sphere divided by a plane of symmetry. 

Plane of Symmetry is defined as a plane that divides in half so that each half is a mirror image of each other. 

A quarter sphere is the term used for the portions of a sphere cut into four parts or a hemisphere cut into two parts. But if you want to call a quarter sphere in your games a hemisphere you're free to do so. You're not going to be graded on on it. 

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

A sphere is the set of points at a fixed distance from a central point. A hemisphere is half of a sphere. Nothing about that definition produces a flat circular base.

Nothing about your definition, at least. Which would make the word redundant as dome would have sufficed since not all domes have floors. Only the hemispherical domes have floors. 

Miriam Websters defines a hemisphere (in this usage) as: one of two halves of a sphere formed by a plane through the sphere's center. 

And this post is the end of my arguing definitions.

RAW the Tiny Hut has a floor. RAI the Tiny Hut has a floor. 

Quote from Rathkryn >>

Miriam Websters defines a hemisphere (in this usage) as: one of two halves of a sphere formed by a plane through the sphere's center. 

And this post is the end of my arguing definitions.

RAW the Tiny Hut has a floor. RAI the Tiny Hut has a floor. 

 The plane is not a part of the hemisphere.

RAW the Tiny Hut does not have a floor.

RAI is unknown; if JC knew what the intent was he would have said so. My suspicion is that they never thought about it.

AnD yet, in common usage, hemisphere can refer to any portion of a sphere in english and still be correct.

You think I was arguing definition. I wasn't. I was pointing out that using the definition you provided isn't accurate. And you keep making appeals to authority to substantiate it, which is sorta bothersome, and undercutting your argument while you did so, which given how strongly you appear to feel about it is something I thought you should avoid.

I have no investment in it to the degree you do. I am going to rule the way I rule not matter what. Because no matter how I rule it -- floor or no floor -- it will be RAW.

Quote from Rathkryn >>

Quote from AEDorsay >

Again, I will note that a hemisphere can be a quarter, 4/7ths, or any lesser part of a sphere. 99% of a sphere is a hemisphere.

Hemi is defined as half. 

Hemisphere is defined as half of a sphere divided by a plane of symmetry. 

Plane of Symmetry is defined as a plane that divides in half so that each half is a mirror image of each other. 

A quarter sphere is the term used for the portions of a sphere cut into four parts or a hemisphere cut into two parts. But if you want to call a quarter sphere in your games a hemisphere you're free to do so. You're not going to be graded on on it. 

 

Hemi is defined as *portion*, strictly speaking, and only outside the scope of the rules since there is no definition of a hemisphere within the rules so it could be of any shape, form or size (in this case, a dome, but we also know that it is not a true dome because it is 10 feet high and 20 feet wide, and domes need not be circular.

A spherical cap is a hemisphere, and is not half. Definitionally. Even by merriam webster, lol.  Dictionaries are notoriously bad sources for information about a particular concept.

Sorry.  it is a weka basis on which to mount the argument, because it is an imprecise term.

Regardless, RAW, no matter how someone rules it, the floor or no floor, it will still be a RAW. 

Because it is unclear and any unclear is always decided by the DM.

There is no right answer for everyone lol.

I like 5e but some of it's rules are poorly written and lead to discussion like this.

In these situations I like to look at older editions for inspiration. The 3.5e description of Tiny Hut says, "You create an unmoving, opaque sphere of force of any color you desire around yourself. Half the sphere projects above the ground, and the lower hemisphere passes through the ground."

I rule in my games you can't tunnel under a Tiny Hut. Anyway, allowing monsters to tunnel up would be a dick move. If the players abuse the spell, such as casting it in a dungeon to get a long rest after one combat, just attack them with someone who can cast Dispel Magic.

Quote from EWhitehart >>

I like 5e but some of it's rules are poorly written and lead to discussion like this.

In these situations I like to look at older editions for inspiration. The 3.5e description of Tiny Hut says, "You create an unmoving, opaque sphere of force of any color you desire around yourself. Half the sphere projects above the ground, and the lower hemisphere passes through the ground."

I rule in my games you can't tunnel under a Tiny Hut. Anyway, allowing monsters to tunnel up would be a dick move. If the players abuse the spell, such as casting it in a dungeon to get a long rest after one combat, just attack them with someone who can cast Dispel Magic.

 No no no that's the easy way.

You let the party see that they have given the bad guys 8 hours to set up something "interesting" to happen when the hut expires. This gives the party the option to act at any time to do something about it. Better verisimilitude.

No. No no no.

You don't have them dig under it. You have them prowl around for like an hour, then a few disappear, but the biggest and meanest keep plinking away at it.

THen the ones that left return after another two hours, and they start building a frame *around* the hut. They slowly wall it off behind a screen or stuff. Old bedding. chamber pots. Broken crockery. Spoiled food. Stuff that has no threat whatsoever while they are all cozy in their little turtle shell.

Now the tide is turned -- the bad guys can't figure out what's going on inside (because that's the spell), but also the good guys have no clue what the bad guys are doing, which is setting up for a good old fashioned witch burning. Because this spell has been around, y'know? They had those wiards using it during the last crusades. Hell, they probably have used it themselves, and when something is that good, you always figure out ways to counter it. Standard military development practice.

Players *always* forget that every spell they can use the bad guys can use. and they also forget tha tthe bad guys are not mindless. THey think, they plan, they execute elaborate efforts and raids. I mean, if they couldn't, they wouldn't be good bad guys.

At six hours, a volley strikes the dome. gotta wake them heroes up and make them think they are going to be safe.

THen, about 30 minutes to an hour beforehand, the fires are lit. timing depends on when they were found, of course. the fires roar up except for one narrow path. That leads the wrong way, of course, Behind Cover, all along that narrow path, are Archers. at the end of the path are the full warrior might assembled.

but wait! There's more!

All that talk about tunneling *into* the dome?

Well, what about tunneling *out* of the dome.

oops, sorry for folks who wanted to do that, because your DM may decide it has a floor, so the absolute best tool for pulling off a vault heist was just nixed.

Stone dungeon floor? Not a big problem for someone with high level spells. GOt a whole small army camped around your resting spot? Well, suddenly tunneling seems like a really cool idea.

What about a filthy, dirty, disease ridden prison cell? Too small a space? Nope-- the dome makes no mention of space it requires, just space it uses.  So now you can bother the hell out of guards and work on those prison bars without interruption.

Don't think that will happen? Wrong. It has. really. Dammit.

Is also very annoying to the folks in nearby cells, especially the ones who weren't within the radius when it was cast. Oh, and that one that was right at the edge? Well, he died of blood loss and now those charges will be added to your crimes. He had a family!

But that severed limb is comfy!

I can't believe that people think it doesn't have a floor?!?!!? It's a "hut". Huts have "floors"....

..at this point of typing, I opened the spell. It's been so long since I real it. So yeah, it's tricky. But I would say that, since the spell says "The atmosphere inside the space is comfortable and dry, regardless of the weather outside." There should be some "force" underfoot, only because if it is pouring rain and you cast it, the area will be dry, not soaking wet, and not just no longer raining on you. 

We always take watches while inside and are always told by the DM what's going on outside, but we have never been attacked in it, by something coming from underneath. 

Quote from Kotath >>

Quote from RighthAndyman618 >>

I can't believe that people think it doesn't have a floor?!?!!? It's a "hut". Huts have "floors"....

..at this point of typing, I opened the spell. It's been so long since I real it. So yeah, it's tricky. But I would say that, since the spell says "The atmosphere inside the space is comfortable and dry, regardless of the weather outside." There should be some "force" underfoot, only because if it is pouring rain and you cast it, the area will be dry, not soaking wet, and not just no longer raining on you. 

We always take watches while inside and are always told by the DM what's going on outside, but we have never been attacked in it, by something coming from underneath. 

 

Where there is a solid seal with the ground, remembering too that it is magic and lets air in but not rain, it should stay dry underneath too. Have you never moved your car after a rainstorm to find a dry patch under it?

 I think he meant if you cast during rain or underwater the floor would be dry.

Quote from RighthAndyman618 >>

I can't believe that people think it doesn't have a floor?!?!!? It's a "hut". Huts have "floors"....

 Because the wording of the spell is "A 10-foot-radius immobile dome of force springs into existence around and above you and remains stationary for the duration."  A dome doesn't generally have a floor, and if it did, the spell would be worded as "above and below".

The space-filling effect is not the dome -- it's the control over light and weather.

Quote from Wysperra >>

I think he meant if you cast during rain or underwater the floor would be dry.

The exact phrasing is "The atmosphere inside the space is comfortable and dry, regardless of the weather outside." Anything that is not atmospheric is unaffected.

In practice, this is unlikely to be relevant unless the party is entirely incompetent at survival.

Quote from Kotath >>

Quote from Wysperra >>

Quote from Kotath >>

Quote from RighthAndyman618 >>

I can't believe that people think it doesn't have a floor?!?!!? It's a "hut". Huts have "floors"....

..at this point of typing, I opened the spell. It's been so long since I real it. So yeah, it's tricky. But I would say that, since the spell says "The atmosphere inside the space is comfortable and dry, regardless of the weather outside." There should be some "force" underfoot, only because if it is pouring rain and you cast it, the area will be dry, not soaking wet, and not just no longer raining on you. 

We always take watches while inside and are always told by the DM what's going on outside, but we have never been attacked in it, by something coming from underneath. 

 

Where there is a solid seal with the ground, remembering too that it is magic and lets air in but not rain, it should stay dry underneath too. Have you never moved your car after a rainstorm to find a dry patch under it?

 I think he meant if you cast during rain or underwater the floor would be dry.

 

Based on that theory, if you cast underwater, the party and gear would also suddenly all be dry. That seems a far bigger claim than merely 'adds a floor.' A floor is not part of 'the atmosphere.' 

 I actually wouldn't have objections about the party being wet if the spell was cast underwater.

 dick move, barely... players do much more dick moves then DM ever does...

getting a long rest in a tiny hut ? i laugh at that one has my players once tryed that and ended up not getting the long rest... because they realised a long rest is 8 hours flush. so setting up the tiny hut prior and then exploring the dungeon would leave them without a hut for a few hours before getting the long rest. now thats RAW ! one can still get a long rest by doing surveillance for 2 hours and sleeping only 6 hours, but that is not a long rest still, they still require no fights during those 2 hours.

that to me is DM hand waving too much of the rules without reasons.
the same way DMs hand waves the material cost of spells and then cry about them being too strong to begin with.
the same way DMs hand wave the rations even they say to players that they have travelled 30 days in a row and he just hand waved it.
the same way DMs think bag of holdings are just infinite spaces, but they are really not.
the same way DMs allows numerous spells to be cast in one round when the rules clearly states you can't.
the same way many dms allows for a bonus action attacks even if the players do not have anything that allows it.

DMs often are the problem with these things because of the number of hand waving they do.
the tiny hut isn't different...
a long rest is 8 hours, tiny hut last 8 hours... so why are the DMs allowing the players to have their long rest in a hut that has already been there for 2 hours in the dungeon ?
why isn't the DM having random encounters finding the said hut by monsters who wonder what that is and why they can't go into it ?

best exemple i have of all those thing is the endless decanter of water which DMs Handwave too often what it can do and then say its too powerfull an item.
heres two exemples of it in action...
pit trap with spikes at the bottom, player open decanter and fill it up, dm handwave physics of water and earth and let the player bypass the trap.
even mor epowerfull an effect... the players open the decanter in front of cavern where kobolds lives, let the decanter open at all time and just flood the entirety of the cavern to kill the whole thing while they chill outside. DM hand waves the fact that kobolds would come out searching for the source of the water coming in. the fact that other creatures might be in the vaccinity. or the physics that caverns aren't water tight the water would drain somewhere, same with the pit exemple...

so yeah, jerk move... barely, more like DM hand waving too much.

A big problem with 5E tiny hut is that it's a mash up of previous editions' versions of the spell and the spell secure shelter - and it's a poorly thought out mash up.

Most previous versions of tiny hut were NOT invulnerable, impenetrable hideouts, and they most certainly didn't have floors that prevented critters from burrowing up.

That the 5E version is also a ritual spell compounds the problems: poorly worded in the PHB, overpowered for a 3rd level spell, and available at all times for any class capable of casting ritual spells.

Oh, and as far as tunneling out of the dome: it's most certainly possible, even if you rule the dome has a floor. Per the wording of the spell:

 Creatures and objects within the dome when you cast this spell can move through it freely.

This means any PC and their gear that is inside the dome when it's cast can easily pass through the floor of the dome, not just the walls or ceiling. A druid that's within the dome when it's cast can then wild shape into a giant badger and tunnel their way out, leaving an escape route for the rest of the PCs in case the bad guys bury the dome in boulders or tree trunks.

There's a very good discussion on the spell here:

https://www.tribality.com/2020/12/31/leomunds-tiny-problem/

Quote from Acromos >>

 

What I feel about Tiny Hut: It's a game mechanic that let's players expend a spellslot to either rest without setting a watch, or delay an encounter until after a long rest. 

@AEDorsay: Again, I will note that a hemisphere can be a quarter, 4/7ths, or any lesser part of a sphere. 99% of a sphere is a hemisphere.

Not sure where you get that. Out of curiosity I checked a number of sources - wikipedia, dictionaries - there seems to be a wide concensus that a hemisphere is precisely half a sphere, and nothing else. 

So, look up the common knowledge term for the name of a quarter sphere in english. Look up the description of a spherical cap. look up the term for a partial sphere.

Now that I have said that, let me point out a couple things.

1 - You cannot use terminology that isn't common knowledge. This is a rather specific concept that is used when creating large, public accessible works such as the PHB and DMG and the like. And while common knowledge is also that "hemi = half", the simple truth is that the common knowledge term for any portion of a sphere is still a hemisphere. The rule of thumb that gets pounded into one's head is a 6th grade reading level -- so *without* relying on rarely used geometry terms.

2 - The whole point of my argument is that getting into a bitter, dug in position over the meaning of a term like hemisphere that is not defined anywhere within the ruleset while still claiming RAW or even RAI is ridiculous and hilarity in action.

Because there is no structure to support the term, and the term is imprecise, the very question of a base or no base is entirely situational and wholly up to the DM of a given game. I would even argue that it is variable from campaign to campaign.

Asi have noted previously, as well, the approach one uses reflects this very difference as well -- if you use  RAW approach, there is question. If you use a mechanical approach (as you did) then suddenly it is far more obvious unless one is being hung up on how they worded something.

Quote from AEDorsay >>

Quote from Acromos >>

 

 

So, look up the common knowledge term for the name of a quarter sphere in english. Look up the description of a spherical cap. look up the term for a partial sphere.

Now that I have said that, let me point out a couple things.

1 - You cannot use terminology that isn't common knowledge. This is a rather specific concept that is used when creating large, public accessible works such as the PHB and DMG and the like. And while common knowledge is also that "hemi = half", the simple truth is that the common knowledge term for any portion of a sphere is still a hemisphere. The rule of thumb that gets pounded into one's head is a 6th grade reading level -- so *without* relying on rarely used geometry terms.

2 - The whole point of my argument is that getting into a bitter, dug in position over the meaning of a term like hemisphere that is not defined anywhere within the ruleset while still claiming RAW or even RAI is ridiculous and hilarity in action.

Because there is no structure to support the term, and the term is imprecise, the very question of a base or no base is entirely situational and wholly up to the DM of a given game. I would even argue that it is variable from campaign to campaign.

Asi have noted previously, as well, the approach one uses reflects this very difference as well -- if you use  RAW approach, there is question. If you use a mechanical approach (as you did) then suddenly it is far more obvious unless one is being hung up on how they worded something.

 Hm. I did not know that - and I threw aside the shovel before I dug deep enough to find it. 

I .. might still feel that using the term in it's most widely accepted meaning is ok, particularly if there isn't another, clearer term. But in so far as all this ties to Leomund's Tiny Hut, I've said all I need to about the spell. As far as language goes, I was just curious =D

Quote from Acromos >>

Quote from AEDorsay >>

Quote from Acromos >>

 

 

So, look up the common knowledge term for the name of a quarter sphere in english. Look up the description of a spherical cap. look up the term for a partial sphere.

 

 Hm. I did not know that - and I threw aside the shovel before I dug deep enough to find it. 

I .. might still feel that using the term in it's most widely accepted meaning is ok, particularly if there isn't another, clearer term. But in so far as all this ties to Leomund's Tiny Hut, I've said all I need to about the spell. As far as language goes, I was just curious =D

 
hey, no sweat ;)

Oddly enough, I only knew it because I had a whole boatload of stuff that came across my desk about two months ago that involved water retention system designs (*yawn, not my field, why am I getting this?*). While I am marginal at a lot of maths stuff, geometry is one of those things I only ever use in game stuff or fiction writing, lol.Well, ok, I suppose modeling, too -- but that's all digital so I just think in terms of shape, not volume.

It is *totally* acceptable to use hemisphere as having a meaning of half a sphere that way -- the catch is that so is using it for other portions of a sphere. I don' t think they can define using a single term more clearly, because there isn't a common language one. THey would have to add something about it having a floor or not having a floor.

I am uninvested in either because for me, it will vary entirely on a campaign to campaign basis. I will note that my current version of the spell for the next campaign specifies a floor, lol, because of this thread -- and see below for what I did after thinking how they are likely to solve the problem.

It should be defined in the game, and I'm willing to suspect strongly that current development would classify it as a sphere, with half of it above a stable, solid surface (because of the whole damn fool "i cast it while on a tree branch 30' in the air" line), and I suspect they would bump it to a 15' radius to keep it in line with the 30/60/90 range system they use everywhere else.

I think of it like this.

Players: Oh, hi game designer. Hey, our characters are 5th level now. We don't want to deal with mundane stuff like bad sleep and poor trail food and cold campsites.
Game designer: I hear you. Here is tiny hut and create food and water. 

2nd tier characters shouldn't be worrying about setting up tents and campfires and so on. They should be worrying about regional threats and cities and the like.