For those who are unaware, there is a new fantasy anime show out this season called Frieren: Beyond Journey's End. Gorgeous work, but that's not what this is for.

In the 9th and 10th episodes, a BBEG is introduced who has a magical item called the Scales of Obedience. They essentially operate by weighing the amount of magical power an individual has against another -- whoever is lesser is compelled to obey the greater, even to the point of allowing their head to be removed, giving the wielder of the scales complete power over their body.

I am curious how others would handle this kind of magical item or spell in 5e, without turning to the spell point system.

In fairness, I loathe the spell slot system, so there is a bit of that involved, but it is not a bad mechanic in general, it merely makes it very difficult to do something like this in the game.

You could just compare the total caster levels (the ones you use to figure out spell slots when you multiclass) of the two people using the scales.

Is magical power to be limited to spells? I mean ki can be considered magic, and there’s even a barbarian subclass with wild magic surges, to give examples of things that fall outside spell slots and caster levels. Then there’s warlock invocations which let you spam level 1 spells all day. Lots of moving parts and apples to oranges comparisons.
You could just do straight character level, or hit dice in the case of monsters. And look at it as overall power, not necessarily just magical power.

I don't think it can be as simple as available spell slots, because a level 5 wizard and a level 5 wizard with a ring of 3 wishes have very different amounts of potential power. Moreover, a level 5 evocation wizard and a level 5 enchantment wizard punch very differently - one could even argue that the enchanter has more power "over" the evoker due to their specialization. And this doesn't bring into account Xalthu's point about other forms of magic.

Sticking with traditional caster classes (and ignoring warlocks) for the sake of contemplation, though, you could make the scales weigh a combination of available spell slots plus any magical items. It'd make sense to me to assign number values to spell slots (similar to spell points, I guess?), as well as magic item rarities. A simplification, sure, but easy enough to quantify.

I like the concept of there being a baddie who uses a weapon like this scale to reign tyrannical, but if I were introducing it in my game, I'd probably make the scale a skill challenge/battle rather than an item. Think when Harry Potter and Voldemort have a reverse tug-o-war with their wands. Maybe the amount of available spell slots + magic items grants a sliding scale bonus to a contested spellcasting ability roll. 

Surely you do it by who has more slots per slot level? For 9th level slots, who has more is more powerful. For 8th level slots, who has more is more powerful. Keep going until you find a difference. So an 11th level caster and a 9th level caster is easy; the 11th level has a 6th level slot and the 9th level caster only has a 5th. But more complexly a 10th level caster compared to a 9th level caster is more powerful because they have an additional 5th level slot.

Quote from eapiv >>

Surely you do it by who has more slots per slot level? For 9th level slots, who has more is more powerful. For 8th level slots, who has more is more powerful. Keep going until you find a difference. So an 11th level caster and a 9th level caster is easy; the 11th level has a 6th level slot and the 9th level caster only has a 5th. But more complexly a 10th level caster compared to a 9th level caster is more powerful because they have an additional 5th level slot.

 Yeah, but after you breach 10th level, that doesn't work as well- an 11th and 12th level wizard have the same number of spell slots, as do a 13th and 14th, and a 15th and 16th.

If I was going to implement this, I'd just do it straight up by level and not worry about the headache caused by trying to measure out racial abilities (a human technically has less magic than a high elf, who technically has less magic than a tiefling), feats, or magic items.  But really I wouldn't put this magic item in in the first place since it sounds like its effect is "Dominate Person But Stronger And With No Save" against anyone who's weaker than you.  There's no challenge or uncertainty, it's an instant "I win" button for whomever is stronger.

Quote from AEDorsay>>

For those who are unaware, there is a new fantasy anime show out this season called Frieren: Beyond Journey's End. Gorgeous work, but that's not what this is for.

In the 9th and 10th episodes, a BBEG is introduced who has a magical item called the Scales of Obedience. They essentially operate by weighing the amount of magical power an individual has against another -- whoever is lesser is compelled to obey the greater, even to the point of allowing their head to be removed, giving the wielder of the scales complete power over their body.

I am curious how others would handle this kind of magical item or spell in 5e, without turning to the spell point system.

 

In fairness, I loathe the spell slot system, so there is a bit of that involved, but it is not a bad mechanic in general, it merely makes it very difficult to do something like this in the game.

 I'd argue that a spell point system isn't going to help, unless it's the only source of magical effects and powers in the game, and that seems unlikely.

Really, this is the sort of device that only works in narratives, where there's an author who can just make the call, and you don't need a formula. There are probably some game systems where there's only one source of magic power, it's easily quantified, and there's no magical critters, but D&D's not it.

Quote from Xalthu >>

Is magical power to be limited to spells? I mean ki can be considered magic, and there’s even a barbarian subclass with wild magic surges, to give examples of things that fall outside spell slots and caster levels. Then there’s warlock invocations which let you spam level 1 spells all day. Lots of moving parts and apples to oranges comparisons.
You could just do straight character level, or hit dice in the case of monsters. And look at it as overall power, not necessarily just magical power.

 
Given the source material, it is "magical power" in the sense of sheer magical potential. So yes, Ki and other such things would count -- but hit dice wouldn't count.

it is somewhat notable that the wielder of the scales in the animated program is a monster, who had never been defeated in 500 years (because mana increases with practice and diligence over time, so level would work, as would CR n some ways) and was suckered in by someone who spent a thousand years hiding her potential specifically in order to be able to defeat that kind of monster.

An interesting quirk is that the measuring came after "significant" expenditure of magical energy, and that there was an implied effort to make such a thing happen in order to ensure success.

Quote from Quar1on >>

You could just compare the total caster levels (the ones you use to figure out spell slots when you multiclass) of the two people using the scales.

This only works if it is two players, however -- Monsters don't have caster levels.

Quote from theologyofbagels >>

I don't think it can be as simple as available spell slots, because a level 5 wizard and a level 5 wizard with a ring of 3 wishes have very different amounts of potential power. Moreover, a level 5 evocation wizard and a level 5 enchantment wizard punch very differently - one could even argue that the enchanter has more power "over" the evoker due to their specialization. And this doesn't bring into account Xalthu's point about other forms of magic.

Sticking with traditional caster classes (and ignoring warlocks) for the sake of contemplation, though, you could make the scales weigh a combination of available spell slots plus any magical items. It'd make sense to me to assign number values to spell slots (similar to spell points, I guess?), as well as magic item rarities. A simplification, sure, but easy enough to quantify.

I like the concept of there being a baddie who uses a weapon like this scale to reign tyrannical, but if I were introducing it in my game, I'd probably make the scale a skill challenge/battle rather than an item. Think when Harry Potter and Voldemort have a reverse tug-o-war with their wands. Maybe the amount of available spell slots + magic items grants a sliding scale bonus to a contested spellcasting ability roll. 

 

 
The idea was interesting enough to me that I put a few moments of consideration into it for my game -- but we use a very heavily developed out magic point system, and while I could have made it a 9th level spell, I opted to presume it was an Artifact instead.

We have a whole "duel" system, though, which is fairly easy to do with a point system, much harder to do with a sell slot system.

SO I was curious how folks would approach it.

It is magical power, and the monster stat blocks don't really have a way of stating that, so it would be something that requires some effort.

Quote from eapiv >>

Surely you do it by who has more slots per slot level? For 9th level slots, who has more is more powerful. For 8th level slots, who has more is more powerful. Keep going until you find a difference. So an 11th level caster and a 9th level caster is easy; the 11th level has a 6th level slot and the 9th level caster only has a 5th. But more complexly a 10th level caster compared to a 9th level caster is more powerful because they have an additional 5th level slot.

 
This would work in a player versus player situation, but not a plyer vs NPC situation, since NPCs use monster stat blocks and don't have levels (or spell slots).

Quote from 6thLyranGuard >>

Quote from eapiv >>

Surely you do it by who has more slots per slot level? For 9th level slots, who has more is more powerful. For 8th level slots, who has more is more powerful. Keep going until you find a difference. So an 11th level caster and a 9th level caster is easy; the 11th level has a 6th level slot and the 9th level caster only has a 5th. But more complexly a 10th level caster compared to a 9th level caster is more powerful because they have an additional 5th level slot.

 Yeah, but after you breach 10th level, that doesn't work as well- an 11th and 12th level wizard have the same number of spell slots, as do a 13th and 14th, and a 15th and 16th.

If I was going to implement this, I'd just do it straight up by level and not worry about the headache caused by trying to measure out racial abilities (a human technically has less magic than a high elf, who technically has less magic than a tiefling), feats, or magic items.  But really I wouldn't put this magic item in in the first place since it sounds like its effect is "Dominate Person But Stronger And With No Save" against anyone who's weaker than you.  There's no challenge or uncertainty, it's an instant "I win" button for whomever is stronger.

 
Not to mention that it runs into issues since NPCs use stat blocks, not character sheets.

That is the effective basis of the object -- but Wish exists, so...

Oddly enough, based on the source, there is a Wisdom or charisma save possible -- apparently, the reason the BB cuts the heads off people is that the very strong willed can resist the magic to a certain degree, but at extreme penalties to movement, and the scales have a range at least great enough to limit the ability to move and strike in a single turn.

Quote from jl8e >>

Quote from AEDorsay>>

For those who are unaware, there is a new fantasy anime show out this season called Frieren: Beyond Journey's End. Gorgeous work, but that's not what this is for.

In the 9th and 10th episodes, a BBEG is introduced who has a magical item called the Scales of Obedience. They essentially operate by weighing the amount of magical power an individual has against another -- whoever is lesser is compelled to obey the greater, even to the point of allowing their head to be removed, giving the wielder of the scales complete power over their body.

I am curious how others would handle this kind of magical item or spell in 5e, without turning to the spell point system.

I wouldn't, because that effect seems like no fun.

Ignoring that, for a more generic version of the "magical comparator" idea, I still wouldn't, because it can't help but draw attention to the weird granularity and asymmetries that are inherent to D&D, and it's going to run into deeply arbitrary questions within five minutes of being introduced.

With that off my chest, the primary measure is caster levels, with half-caster levels counting 1/2, and third-caster levels counting 1/3. For these purposes, both Warlock and Artificer are full casters, because they still do magic stuff, it's just magic stuff outside the normal spell mechanics.

This is going to lead to ties. Maybe that's fine, but here's some ordered tie breakers:

1. Feats that provide spells, such as Magic Initiate. You can either count up the number of feats on each side, or total up the spell levels provided. (Figure out what cantrips are worth.)
2. If one of the two is from an inherently magical species, defined as one that provides spells or spell-like effects. Once again, you can total available spell levels, or not.
3. Potential. If one of the two is higher-level than the other, then they're inherently less magic than the other, since they had to try harder to get to the same place.

Of course, this is assuming one of the possible definitions of "the amount of magical power an individual has". If you mean "the amount of juice they have left right now", you could just total up the available spell levels, plus something for cantrips, and that'll work OK, until you toss a Warlock or Artificer into the mix. (Or anybody with magic effects that are not part of the normal magic system.)

Either way, as soon as somebody puts a monster on the scales, everything goes to pot. There's no formulaic way you're ever gonna make that work.

 

In fairness, I loathe the spell slot system, so there is a bit of that involved, but it is not a bad mechanic in general, it merely makes it very difficult to do something like this in the game.

 I'd argue that a spell point system isn't going to help, unless it's the only source of magical effects and powers in the game, and that seems unlikely.

Really, this is the sort of device that only works in narratives, where there's an author who can just make the call, and you don't need a formula. There are probably some game systems where there's only one source of magic power, it's easily quantified, and there's no magical critters, but D&D's not it.

 
So, while I haven't actually used this device in play, lol, my spell point system does enable such a thing to happen, regardless of it being a PC or NPC (monster), because I have a system that is essentially based in "all magic comes from this", and if a Feature doesn't, then it ain't magical. So Ki points, artificer stuff, warlock stuff, and all the rest are still points.

So it can work rather well in my game -- but I note that is because I set up an entire spell points system for everything (such as an Ability score for all magic use, etc). Not something useful for everyone.

You touched directly on pretty much everything I had come to mind when I started to think on it, which is why I asked how it could be done (without regard to should it be done, because that's a different question).

Quote from AEDorsay >>

Quote from Xalthu >>

Is magical power to be limited to spells? I mean ki can be considered magic, and there’s even a barbarian subclass with wild magic surges, to give examples of things that fall outside spell slots and caster levels. Then there’s warlock invocations which let you spam level 1 spells all day. Lots of moving parts and apples to oranges comparisons.
You could just do straight character level, or hit dice in the case of monsters. And look at it as overall power, not necessarily just magical power.

 
Given the source material, it is "magical power" in the sense of sheer magical potential. So yes, Ki and other such things would count -- but hit dice wouldn't count.

it is somewhat notable that the wielder of the scales in the animated program is a monster, who had never been defeated in 500 years (because mana increases with practice and diligence over time, so level would work, as would CR n some ways) and was suckered in by someone who spent a thousand years hiding her potential specifically in order to be able to defeat that kind of monster.

An interesting quirk is that the measuring came after "significant" expenditure of magical energy, and that there was an implied effort to make such a thing happen in order to ensure success.

 

I mean, "magical potential" is rather outside D&D's character creation system's ability to quantify, because the concept is mostly a narrative set piece used to explain why a setting's power tiers allow for ridiculously powerful individuals who trivialize 99.9999% of the per capita military might of the setting. Admittedly D&D is not absent of these things, but there's too many varied ways for magical power to express itself (metallic and chromatic dragons are expressly very magical, but only get a handful of casts whose levels will vary by what the DM wants to give them); honestly I'd use this concept more as a plot device rather than something discrete and quantified like a magic item.

Quote from AEDorsay>>

So, while I haven't actually used this device in play, lol, my spell point system does enable such a thing to happen, regardless of it being a PC or NPC (monster), because I have a system that is essentially based in "all magic comes from this", and if a Feature doesn't, then it ain't magical. So Ki points, artificer stuff, warlock stuff, and all the rest are still points.

So it can work rather well in my game -- but I note that is because I set up an entire spell points system for everything (such as an Ability score for all magic use, etc). Not something useful for everyone.

Quote from jl8e >>

Quote from AEDorsay>>

So, while I haven't actually used this device in play, lol, my spell point system does enable such a thing to happen, regardless of it being a PC or NPC (monster), because I have a system that is essentially based in "all magic comes from this", and if a Feature doesn't, then it ain't magical. So Ki points, artificer stuff, warlock stuff, and all the rest are still points.

So it can work rather well in my game -- but I note that is because I set up an entire spell points system for everything (such as an Ability score for all magic use, etc). Not something useful for everyone.

 Is it? How do you account for continuous abilities? If you've got beholders, they presumably use the spell points to run their little eyes, and presumably even the big eye's anti-magic, but what about the levitation? At the end of a big fight, is it forced to lie there like a forgotten beach ball?

 
on the monster side, beholders (which I officially do have, but may yank out for reasons other than the magic system) have immense amounts of mana. They have to in order to be able to spam their eyes, and it becomes even more important because they have to be able to account for the risk of mana fatigue. Continuous stuff represents a constant drain on the mana supply (and there are some spells that can be "fed into" to make them stronger, in certain contests). A Beholder is generally on par with a Level 20 Wizard in my game in terms of magical power.

If they die, they "pop", lol. Gory and gruesome. So, yeah -- a forgotten fleshy beach ball.

The reason I may have to strip them out is one of the development rules for the setting -- technically, their creation calls within the "not allowed to use stuff from this period" thing -- but I haven't had that convo with my player group yet. I wrote them into the history and everything, so there is a basis fro them, but that all goes more into the lore.

One of the "rules of magic" is that actual magic always has a cost -- cantrips are 1 point. Most special abilities from classes cost one to five points. Can't go over 5 for some of them because of a limitation on a group known as nulls who have an inherent resistance to magic.

if a beholder (or other monster or a PC) uses up all their mana they pass out. If they put too much into a given spell (because they can do meta-magic like things), then they can get a point of fatigue. 6th level and higher spells are taxing as all get out, which is a convenient reason for there being fewer of them, lol.

I basically rewrote magic for 5e for this next ongoing campaign building off stuff we had been doing in our group over the last decade and change. Getting monsters to run out of magic is a major tactical move, lol.

Quote from AEDorsay >>

Quote from Xalthu >>

Is magical power to be limited to spells? I mean ki can be considered magic, and there’s even a barbarian subclass with wild magic surges, to give examples of things that fall outside spell slots and caster levels. Then there’s warlock invocations which let you spam level 1 spells all day. Lots of moving parts and apples to oranges comparisons.
You could just do straight character level, or hit dice in the case of monsters. And look at it as overall power, not necessarily just magical power.

 
Given the source material, it is "magical power" in the sense of sheer magical potential. So yes, Ki and other such things would count -- but hit dice wouldn't count.

it is somewhat notable that the wielder of the scales in the animated program is a monster, who had never been defeated in 500 years (because mana increases with practice and diligence over time, so level would work, as would CR n some ways) and was suckered in by someone who spent a thousand years hiding her potential specifically in order to be able to defeat that kind of monster.

An interesting quirk is that the measuring came after "significant" expenditure of magical energy, and that there was an implied effort to make such a thing happen in order to ensure success. 

 I meant more like using hit dice as a way to compare across different classes. One person has spell slots, one has ki points, one has invocations, a rune knight has their magic runes. 
The problem, of course, is this assumes that characters of the same level are the same power, and that’s just not true. I just figure that’s about the only thing everyone—character and monster — get, and in general having more means you’re likely to be more powerful than someone with less.